Mini Normal 2334: trees (Day 6)

[RationalMadman]

VOTE: Rationalmadman

The name is already contradictory, just like medical license!

I don't really understand why people do this early in DP1s unless they will gang as 3 out of the 13 here at least. It is junk activity and can hurt Town a lot more than help.

I am replying to you as you chose me, yes, however this is a habit many develop in Mafia and especially in a setup with 13, which is not 'mini' in a real sense, all these equate to is hellos aimed at people to achieve nothing.

My username can refer to different contexts of rationality and madness but in Mafiascum context it refers to that I calculate a lot but seem crazy to others I am sure. It isn't a contradiction.

[RationalMadman]

What I'd do instead is say we keep talking and gang on people as 3 to 4 to pressure them. It can be me, it can be others. Nobody should react until 3 to 4 votes are on them in a setup this big, not on DP1.

Pressure is from votes to eliminate fundamentally (or night actions, sure). All other pressure is an illusion.

Idk how the right way to talk is but voting and saying silly stuff only benefits scum, not town. Always.

[RationalMadman]

Random voting I meant*

Not voting on its own in the last part.

[RationalMadman]

What I'd do instead is say we keep talking and gang on people as 3 to 4 to pressure them. It can be me, it can be others. Nobody should react until 3 to 4 votes are on them in a setup this big, not on DP1.

Pressure is from votes to eliminate fundamentally (or night actions, sure).

All other pressure is an illusion.

Idk how the right way to talk is but voting and saying silly stuff only benefits scum, not town. Always.

Regarding the bolded, to confirm, do you believe that there is no other way to apply pressure other than voting?

Warning, a ranty monologue is coming, I'm also trying to word it in ways relevant to this specific setup that's why I'm making a big deal out of seemingly nothing, just to fully clarify my mentality here.

Excluding night actions or guntype powers, everything else is veiled threats and pressure related to votes. I don't need to vote you and you don't need to vote me to know that's the underlying threat if you're Town without the power to do more to me in the night period, either way that's a threat of wasting Town power on me.

In essence the Town in all mafia games is meant to operate as the Mafia do and terrify, rattle and thus force slips and unrest from the 'Scum' (usually the Mafia but thirdparty too). This is why the name is very correct in its name rather than focusing on the 'town' or 'village' it focuses on the scum as it's all about them.

The only advantage the Mafia has is it knows more initially, the Town has more members and often with potent power roles at play. This is why low pressure, chill-vibe games favour scum and why people who play Mafia casually and not to tryhard can't properly force tells, slips etc and then can't get the reads. What you're asking me is obvious; can I pressure you with asking questions and making you squirm, yes I can and you can totally do that to me if others join you voting me or threatening to. It's that threat, the threat of the elimination (formerly another word in Mafia) that is the underlying pressure.

Eventually if everyone is made to squirm, the game of Mafia is at the highest skill level whereas if barely anyone or only random people are squirming, it's either a setup balance issue or it's a playstyle issue. This is also why I avoid 'all vanilla' type games and prefer PRs. This is not a soft of any kind, I am stating it to explain something, to me we should shut up VTNE (vote to not eliminate) and let the PRs flow. That's not an absolute for all mafia games, there are setups and situations where that's stupid to suggest but in my opinion all the chit-chat that's going to proceed is going to do is either force outs or end up with us voting off a vanilla (because no mafia is going to claim vanilla when threatened with elimination DP1, other than as reverse psychology to say they'd never do that among people who'd believe that). So all DP1 random votes really do is create unnecessary pressure for the sake of 'activity' that does way more to help scum analyse PRs than the other way around, this is truer in a setup as big as 13 than it would be in a smaller situation just because smaller leads to instant pressure anyway. This is 'mini' but 13 people means each of the Town has to read 12 others, that's not some tiny differentiation. Meanwhile if we presume the ratio is 3:10, since at worst it's 4:9 (though this probably means underpowered mafia roles), the Scum need only to mentally juggle around what 10 other players think while the Town on top of reading others needs to ensure they're Towntelling to 9 others that they don't even know who the 9 are during DP1 for sure (excluding very special roles where you know 1 other Town member but I'm talking normal mini game roles and what to assume right?)

[RationalMadman]

This is why the name is very correct in its name

the game*

[RationalMadman]

so i dont understand why you aren’t voting somewhere Rational

okay is this how to VTNE in this:

VOTE: No one Or is there no way to do this

[RationalMadman]

let PRs do things, let mafia play in the dark guessing who to use their powers on, the gamble is Town gains more than Mafia does from the blind NP1 shots in the dark than any extended period DP1. It's true we may end up voting off mafia but at what cost of leaking reads based on who did or didn't say what?

Leak nothing, let DP2 reports and claims dictate how things flow. If a strong PR dies NP1 that's bad luck and frankly DP1 random bandwagons are as much luck too but reveal more to mafia regarding how others respond.

[RationalMadman]

In this type of situation and setup I am certain a fast, no-talk instant rush to NP is optimal. If PR dies, it dies. There's nearly nothing to gain from avoiding that bad luck outcome by forcing luck based bandwagons.

[RationalMadman]

VOTE: No Elimination

[RationalMadman]

Let DP2 be medium pressure and DP3 be high pressure. We don't need any nonsense DP1 leaking anything to Mafia. That's my belief. It's antitown pressure whereas revolving it around PRs DP2 and DP3 is where we really crack setups and have useful info of some kind to watch people respond to and bounce reads off of.

[RationalMadman]

so i dont understand why you aren’t voting somewhere Rational

By the way this response, the tone of it and way it's said is extremely Towny. If I die NP2, trust this user to the end of the game. It's the laziness in the grammar too, everything about it screams honest Town reaction to what was read (the user skimread and ignored me saying I think we don't need the pressure DP1).

[RationalMadman]

" If I die NP2" isn't a typo btw.

I don't think I'm dying NP1. I have a theory I'll be framed at first. We will see.

[RationalMadman]

Is there a tl:dr, asking for a friend (the friend is Hu Tao)

I can skip what I said about Mafia pressure in general and say one thing about this DP and situation:

We have 12 other people than ourselves as Town. Scum probably at ratiod 3:10 (4:9 requires an underpowered mafia and this is a 'Normal mini' setup so in all regards we can assume the 3:10 ratio unless there's a thirdparty at play).

As Town, all of the 9 other Townies than me are operating trying to appear as Towny as possible to others, masking what they do and say but also trying hard to read 12 others and interrogate and force reactions (or they're just random posting silly hellos etc I'm not saying it to be mean but to clarify it's junk activity often dubbed 'fluff' or 'filler' perhaps).

The 9 others are all operating in a way that may well seem scummy at first, though I had a towntell from one player who replied to me so far, I think that's not a good bet to be what happens often during this DP. Meanwhile, the scum are only worried about appearing Towny and watching what they say, they will be primarily concerned with reading PR vs vanilla dynamics in how people operate. That type of leaking and telling is far more likely to become obvious the more we have happening during the DP.

Either we all out instantly and try to crack the balance and whatever else or we hide it and vote no elimination. If we vote scum they'll force a PR CC or end up appearing unCC'd PR by picking, by luck, the type of PR that isn't directly had by another (for instance tracker and watcher cancel out balance-wise while cop and the other wouldn't necessarily, you get the idea). Either way it's a disaster where at best we voted off a vanilla or forced a PR to CC and happened to vote the fake one in the CC.

[RationalMadman]

Scum need only to crack out of 10 (most likely) while the rest of us are cracking out of 12, they also know more in terms of their own roles. It's just not a smart idea. This is a totally closed setup, how are we to even determine if claims are real or not? The best hope is the one voted claims vanilla and goes down easy. That's still not beneficial to Town at all as that's probably a real claim.

[RationalMadman]

ok fuck it ill cause drama VOTE: dannflor
the paranoia won

dann why are you town

Dann is town. Idk wtf is going on with this DP being derailed, probably by scum, to be annoyance voting or not but Dann is Town. His thought process and behaviours all DP is Towny.

[RationalMadman]

ok fuck it ill cause drama VOTE: dannflor
the paranoia won

dann why are you town

I haven’t particularly tried to be towny or do anything this game yet

I thought it was scummy you town read me in the first place lol

That is a Towntell if you weren't aware. Scum try hard to appear like Town in ways Town only do if they are particularly tryhards.

[RationalMadman]

[quote=awesomeming327 post_id=14150646 post_num=98 time=1712433253 user_id=37392
And no not really I changed my mind rational is not a newbie and my thing only applies for newbies

Lovely
Come vote with me
[/quote]
You are voting Town but if I vote you back it looks like scum reacting defensive. I am very sure you're just trying to derail a good chance scum goes to night period knowing nothing beyond their roles by voting me and making a lot of people reveal reads and react in ways you can decide better who to kill and frame next DP as well as read for PRs vs vanillas.

[RationalMadman]

I quoted but it failed somehow to end the quote properly.

[RationalMadman]

Everyone should want to end the DP ASAP. Mafia have too many reads already on who is PR and who scumreads who, you're making their life much easier by blabbing.

If we vote anyone it should be someone key to extending the DP and who is voting without a good reason.

[RationalMadman]

It’s really odd to narrate your actions by saying “if I do this it would look like scum so I’m not going to”…why do you think that would make people townread you when that same logic could be given to the reason both town and scum wouldn’t do it - to look town.

I think that way both as Town and Scum but I also have such a weird thinking pattern that trying to appear stereotypical Town is futile for me. Idk if you're replying to me or Dann there though.

[RationalMadman]

Scum try hard to appear like Town in ways Town only do if they are particularly tryhards.

Stop making blanket statements that are just untrue

For tryhards like myself that is untrue, for most players that's true.

[RationalMadman]

You are voting Town but if I vote you back it looks like scum reacting defensive.

not if you give a reason

I am very sure you're just trying to derail a good chance scum goes to night period knowing nothing beyond their roles by voting me and making a lot of people reveal reads and react in ways you can decide better who to kill and frame next DP as well as read for PRs vs vanillas.

stop with your obsession with PRs
unless you're fishing in which case keep it up

The way to fish for PRs is to say nothing and read for them.

[RationalMadman]

It’s really odd to narrate your actions by saying “if I do this it would look like scum so I’m not going to”…why do you think that would make people townread you when that same logic could be given to the reason both town and scum wouldn’t do it - to look town.

Oh you mean why I won't vote Elements. It's not only that. I genuinely believe NoElim is best. elements as Scum will claim a PR when eventually voted. As real PR she will do the same. As Vanilla that's still a Townie. It's lose-lose, since it will force a PR to CC her if she is scum or have revealed a significant thing to scum if not.

There is very likely a roleblocker of sorts in a setup this big ('mini' is semantics this isn't a small game). There is huge reason to just NoElim and let's PRs do their thing with Mafia having toe guess so much.

[RationalMadman]

No Elim is optimal here, I am certain of it.

[RationalMadman]

It’s really odd to narrate your actions by saying “if I do this it would look like scum so I’m not going to”…why do you think that would make people townread you when that same logic could be given to the reason both town and scum wouldn’t do it - to look town.

Oh you mean why I won't vote Elements. It's not only that. I genuinely believe NoElim is best. elements as Scum will claim a PR when eventually voted. As real PR she will do the same. As Vanilla that's still a Townie. It's lose-lose, since it will force a PR to CC her if she is scum or have revealed a significant thing to scum if not.

There is very likely a roleblocker of sorts in a setup this big ('mini' is semantics this isn't a small game). There is huge reason to just NoElim and let's PRs do their thing with Mafia having toe guess so much.

Why would a PR CC in this scenario in a closed setup?

If someone claims either your role or a very similar PR, this is a normal setup meaning neither bastard modding nor realistic similar roles should be considered valid by you and not CCing early is gamethrowing as later you'll not be believed unless you were somehow revealed or killed.

[RationalMadman]

It’s really odd to narrate your actions by saying “if I do this it would look like scum so I’m not going to”…why do you think that would make people townread you when that same logic could be given to the reason both town and scum wouldn’t do it - to look town.

Oh you mean why I won't vote Elements. It's not only that. I genuinely believe NoElim is best. elements as Scum will claim a PR when eventually voted. As real PR she will do the same. As Vanilla that's still a Townie. It's lose-lose, since it will force a PR to CC her if she is scum or have revealed a significant thing to scum if not.

There is very likely a roleblocker of sorts in a setup this big ('mini' is semantics this isn't a small game). There is huge reason to just NoElim and let's PRs do their thing with Mafia having toe guess so much.

Why would a PR CC in this scenario in a closed setup?

If someone claims either your role or a very similar PR, this is a normal setup meaning neither bastard modding nor realistic similar roles should be considered valid by you and not CCing early is gamethrowing as later you'll not be believed unless you were somehow revealed or killed.

I would like to direct you to Mini 2321, where there was both a Town Neapolitan and Town Role Cop in the game, both very similar roles that we doubted would exist together and threw off all of our setup spec that wound up costing up the game.

You may think you proved me wrong but you proved my original theory even more correct.

[RationalMadman]

Assuming the vibe is I should stop this and confirm, my 2 Townreads are Dann and the one voting him (Grovyle).

These 2 strike me as consistently Towny. The secret isn't in what they're doing alone but in them lacking anything scummy while actively contributing in quirky ways even that shows they care more about scum hunting than Towntelling.

[RationalMadman]

Idk who is scum but the ones most actively pushing to extend the DP all default scum to me, I am fully aware they may be Town and just see things very differently to me.

[RationalMadman]

Conform, not confirm.

[RationalMadman]

I am down to vote anyone that isn't Grovyle or Dann. If we're going to bandwagon, others lack Towntelling in my eyes.

[RationalMadman]

I am down to vote anyone that isn't Grovyle or Dann. If we're going to bandwagon, others lack Towntelling in my eyes.

I've changed my mind
Come VOTE: Thomith
Will help end the day

Why do you think it's a good idea to end the day quickly?

Did you reply to the right person?

I already explained why if you mean me.

[RationalMadman]

I am down to vote anyone that isn't Grovyle or Dann.

Self vote

[RationalMadman]

After reading the wiki page in more depth than I originally did I realise 4:9 is not a possible ratio in these Normal setup games, so it's 100% 3:10.

[RationalMadman]

I read it when signing up, in case of confusion when I read it in less detail. I read about Normal setups and am back after some years away.

[RationalMadman]

Okay, I've reread in more detail. I read in ways that can't always be fully explained because I pick up on nuances in tone and underlying motives behind things that may not make sense to others. It's an edge I've had elsewhere but helps a lot in the game of Mafia.

I will delete myself from the list of players and make a list of my main scumreads, with those I don't scumread at all struck out.. This is not just a case of 'they did many scummy things' but that they did things that to me don't read Towny, more than they did things that seem Towny. This does not exclude pure lurkers of sorts, which I'll clarify after.
Elements
DrippingGoofball

DrNickRiviera

Grovyle in a Fedora

Hu Tao

KayJayQueue

SaltiestCactus23
Thomith
camelCasedSnivy

Dannflor

awesomeming327
Gibdo

Now, out of this list, I will clarify who is a genuine scumread (S) vs just on that list due to not doing enough (NE).

Elements S
DrippingGoofball NE
Hu Tao S
SaltiestCactus23 NE
Thomith S
camelCasedSnivy NE
awesomeming327 S
Gibdo NE (I believe this user hasn't even posted at all in this game).

Among the S, I will lay out parts I can explain and aren't just picking up on nuances.

Most of the S have acted towards sabotaging me ending the day fast with a no elim but not all scumread me for it whatsoever, this isn't about that. The game doesn't revolve around me, after all. If I begin with that in mind, I will explain then what seems unnatural for them as Town to be doing, saying or engaging indirectly in.

Hu Tao has fluffed all day phase as far as I can see, let's ignore the 'red role' joke as that's a nulltell, the whole thing from Hu Tao screams 'idgaf and I am just here to mess around'. Some people do have this attitude as Town, however it defaults to a scumread.


Saltiest Cactus seems to have tried earlier on and then disappeared. They could be busy during the weekend and thus the days of this game. They could be many things, what it reads like to me is a player saying enough to avoid being ganged upon for inactivity and then intentionally disappearing. In fact, what the questions asked were, are pseudotowny because they help Scum to analyse who to pick on, frame or whatever else a lot better than they help Town know enough to proceed with. The question how well each player knows others doesn't help Town nearly as much as it helps Scum pick who to frame (a player others know less well and who also knows others less well). The next question 'how do you think you act as town or scum' is a question that has 1 of 3 answers:

1. A skilled player lets you know they play the same as both.
2. A less skilled player tells you they don't know exactly and gives a vague idea of what they think the differences are.
3. Similar to scenario 1 but it's a delusional player who doesn't know their tells.

The answers would only benefit scum, to be honest, since the question is about the self perception of players and not how others see them. It would mean if scum spotted a player contradict what they said about themselves or if a player says they play the same or very similar as both, then it's easier to frame that player.

I don't get how this would help us read others, the question 'what tells do you know others have here' following asking about familiarity would be a much, much townier combo. It's not a slight difference, it's a massive one and is the difference between forced Towny-appearing activity and genuine Towny activity/interrogation. I waited a bit to see if this player would call out all those including me that ignored the questions but he hasn't been participating in this game enough since then to read based on that.



Thomith keeps replying in ways that obviously seem Towny but it's almost like forcing activity for the sake of it. There are many examples of this however, it depends how Thomith sees Mafia. If Thomith fundamentally believes getting people's thought processes on everything related to the game, for the sake of it, is the best ways to get reads then Thomith can easily be Town however such players tend to mimic this type of interrogating as Scum as well. There are some examples where what Thomith is asking or replying is as good as not asking or replying it. This is a very typical trait of players of Mafia, after all if we are all the super lurky 'never talk' quiet type of people we wouldn't be attracted to this game at all or forums in general as anything other than a silent observer. I can't put my finger on what exactly seems scummy from Thomith but the activity seems forced to me.


Elements seems to just be voting whoever seems viable to lead on. That's the consistent combination of voting and posting behaviour from Elements. It seems to others to be aggressive leading but especially when Elements suddenly switched from me as it was clear others weren't joining the bandwagon just now, without explaining the 'why' of the switch, it seems to just be opportunistic. Elements also kept saying she disagrees with nearly everything I said earlier in the game and keeps insisting I'm talking nonsense and to shut up but doesn't ever clarify why I'm wrong or what Elements believes instead. The concept 'setup speculation loses games' in closed setup games is nonsensical however in a simple Normal I think not much setup speculation is needed as over time there's a lot obvious about it. There seems to be an urge from Elements to discredit me leading in any form, this either comes from a Scum aspect if she thinks I'm onto something valid with the no-elim or comes from a Town aspect if she believes I'm genuinely misleading Town over and over. If it were the latter, why aren't the 'whys' of me being wrong being mentioned, she clearly isn't a quiet 'hide away' type of player.

[RationalMadman]

I forgot to explain awesoming scumread, give me a moment. Apologies.

[RationalMadman]

Awesoming came in clarifying to default me to Town for advocating for no elimination. This was followed by clarifying that it's Towny because it's uninformed and a noob thing (implying both that he now has grounds to vote me later for being wrong and that he is calling me stupid/ignorant without directly attacking me while seeming to side with me).

After this, Awesoming suddenly realises I'm not new. So, why say that then? After realising I'm not new, he leaves it dismissed rather than directly engaging me and attacking my logic (which is infallible and can't be argued against, sorry to flex it but it's true and I think he realised this as he read it but left it for later).

In fact, the strangest aspect of all was awesoming having the time to still make some posts but not have the time to read my posts and attack my sound logic for the no-elimination. It is exactly the kind of 'haven't got time sorry' post that Scum that wants to get away with not directly engaging people after saying 'this person is kind of wrong that person is kind of scummy but I don't have time to fully explore, peace out' do during DP1s, laying the groundwork to lead on anyone convenient later and really having sided with 0 people while appearing to.

[RationalMadman]

I don't necessarily scumread Saltiest Cactus, I do believe the issue is lack of followup on asking those 2 questions but the player has been inactive. I wanted to see them force answers out of those that ignored it or see what happens following asking them, basically.

[RationalMadman]

Anyways no elim d1 is objectively bad but I don't really think w!Rational would argue about this and then continue arguing about it after near unanimous disproval of the strategy
elements voting rational on it seems opportunistic imo

It isn't objectively bad, the only people calling it subjectively bad so far have failed to back it up.

[RationalMadman]

@Radical
Can you tell me why a fast no-lim day 1 is beneficial for town without any reasoning about a quick day 1 no-lim being bad/unhelpful for the red team?

If you don't understand that nerfing one team is advantageous for the directly opposed team then idk how to explain it to you.

[RationalMadman]

Also my username isn't Radical.

It is very simple if you understand the more complex parts:

Town gains less than Mafia do from an extended DP1 in this, the reason is that Town don't really gain any setup info beyond what's claimed by the voted-to-elim at L-2 or L-1 and any who CC them. Sure, in theory they gain scumreads and townreads but DP1 reads are notoriously unreliable because different people do just act differently so only if this is a group of regulars that truly have metareads on each other is an extended DP1 potentially favouring Town instead with all the softs and leaks that can happen to other Townies.

Mafia gain more because they gain a lot of reads on who scumreads and townreads who else (helping them to decide which scum member has most towncred and who to frame conversely and even maybe alter which scum member CC's but I won't clarify how they could alter who CC's as more or less trusted member can go either way). They also get better 'aim' potential with their night kill and roleblock or any such action.

[RationalMadman]

The Town loses least and Mafia gains the least in a guaranteed manner from a DP1 fast no-elimination.

Other alternatives are suboptimal gambles thinking that each of the 10 Town member reads 12 others and towntells to 9 others better than the 3 Mafia members towntell to the 9 and are capable of reading PRs vs vanillas based on outcomes, even if they fail they have the ability to force out a CC or be UNCC'd PR depending how their claim goes.

I know it's 3:10 because on a reading of simple Normal Wiki I realised 4:9 isn't a possible setup balance.

[RationalMadman]

Rational imma keep it 100 with you and tell you that 12 people can't be mafia and those 12 people accept the meta of a day 1 elimination and won't rush for you.

More discussion time is what mafia hate, not lack of "info" for a kill. All that happens is X known strong player dies and then we're in a worse position. PRs don't play the game for town in any sense. Setup balance in normals are contingent on day play helping town, and possible guilties are always considerations. I don't think I can point at any properly reviewed setup in the past 2 years and say "yeah no elimination would have granted good info here over playing out day 1"

Rational imma keep it 100 with you and tell you that 12 people can't be mafia and those 12 people accept the meta of a day 1 elimination and won't rush for you.

More discussion time is what mafia hate, not lack of "info" for a kill. All that happens is X known strong player dies and then we're in a worse position.

Protection roles should default to whoever X is, even if X may be scum, during the DP1 no-elim, as that's optimal. I didn't want to clarify that in hopes it was simply how the instincts of any in that role (not excluding myself being that role, clarifying regardless) would go.

Idc what the scum members say so I only care that the other 9 all seem against no elimination. They are incorrect but I have to obey it as conforming to Town members you disagree with is part of the game.

[RationalMadman]

Idc what the scum members say so I only care that the other 9 all seem against no elimination. They are incorrect but I have to obey it as conforming to Town members you disagree with is part of the game.

Meaning other 9 town members.

[RationalMadman]

Quoting in this site is something I need to work on, it doesn't go how you think when you type in the box.

[RationalMadman]

let's say L-2 and L-1 means Lim. I realised my error after writing it. I should say E-2 and E-1.

[RationalMadman]

What I'd do instead is say we keep talking and gang on people as 3 to 4 to pressure them. It can be me, it can be others. Nobody should react until 3 to 4 votes are on them in a setup this big, not on DP1.

Idc what the scum members say so I only care that the other 9 all seem against no elimination. They are incorrect but I have to obey it as conforming to Town members you disagree with is part of the game.

You say wagons of 3 or 4 are the only ones that matter.
You say you will conform to the town in that everyone other than you want to vote people.
You have a list of 4 people you think are red team.

So why are you still not voting any of the 2 player wagons to make them up to 3 players?

All you are doing is clogging up the thread with "analysis" everyone else disagrees with yet you continue to talk about almost nothing else. Making it easy for the red team to hide behind that being the big thing of the day. You have the most posts of any of us.
You gave a reads list that no one asked you to do even though it goes against everything you have said about day 1.
You are simply hypocritical in what you say versus your actions.

VOTE: RationalMadman

Idk if this is your version of gaslighting or something but I clarified why I want to wait until DP2 to do said pressuring multiple times including a time you quoted which was a reply to you.

[RationalMadman]

@Rational
I'm going to take your thought process to an extreme, just for you.
Let's have a hypothetical 13 player game with the following roles:
Mafia Roleblocker
1-shot Mafia Doctor
Mafia Goon

Town Cop
Town 1-shot vigilante
Town 2-shot doctor
7xVT

Day 1
We all collectively decide to vote no-lim as fast as possible. In fact, the first 7 posts of the game are to vote for no elimination and we go to the night phase with nothing having been said. All good so far?

Night 1
Mafia kill a random VT
Mafia throw out a random roleblock, cool. It hits a VT and nothing happens
Cop checks someone at random and find out they're town. Horay information!
Vig and Doc decide not to use their abilities.

Day 2
The cop decides they don't want to claim anything just yet, after all they can only confirm one player as town and if they claim now it's likely they could die in the night phase.
So for 8 out the remaining 9 town players we have exactly the same sceario as in day 1, minus one town member. What do we talk about now? There is no public information availible to us so anything we do will be random and based on nothing. Probably best to vote no-lim here in case the things we say out our valuable PRs.
The day ends with no elimination

Night 2
Mafia kill another VT
Mafia roleblock a random person, lets say the doctor this time
Vigi still doesn't know who to shoot so doesn't pick anyone
Doctor decides to wait again making the Mafia PR action useless
Cop checks the VT the mafia happen to kill that night

Day 3
Exactly the same situation as Day 2 but with one less town member again.

I think you can see where this is headed.

Please explain to me how your reasoning for no lim day 1 cannot be applied to day 2 and beyond if the PRs are gated or do not want to claim for whatever reason they might have.

I never ever said DP2 is a no-lim. Ever.

[RationalMadman]

Rational imma keep it 100 with you and tell you that 12 people can't be mafia and those 12 people accept the meta of a day 1 elimination and won't rush for you.

More discussion time is what mafia hate, not lack of "info" for a kill. All that happens is X known strong player dies and then we're in a worse position. PRs don't play the game for town in any sense. Setup balance in normals are contingent on day play helping town, and possible guilties are always considerations. I don't think I can point at any properly reviewed setup in the past 2 years and say "yeah no elimination would have granted good info here over playing out day 1"

Rational imma keep it 100 with you and tell you that 12 people can't be mafia and those 12 people accept the meta of a day 1 elimination and won't rush for you.

More discussion time is what mafia hate, not lack of "info" for a kill. All that happens is X known strong player dies and then we're in a worse position.

Protection roles should default to whoever X is, even if X may be scum, during the DP1 no-elim, as that's optimal. I didn't want to clarify that in hopes it was simply how the instincts of any in that role (not excluding myself being that role, clarifying regardless) would go.

Idc what the scum members say so I only care that the other 9 all seem against no elimination. They are incorrect but I have to obey it as conforming to Town members you disagree with is part of the game.

scum are against no elim because town is lol.

What kind of logic is that? I don't even understand how it's a reply to me.

[RationalMadman]

If we vote anyone it should be someone key to extending the DP and who is voting without a good reason.

Vote me then

If you are going to force it I eventually will. Until it's genuinely me vs you, I have to wait to see what happens. I am not eager to force you to claim, it benefits Scum even if you claim and are CC'd and are scum yourself. I need to wait to see others react and get a proper final decision on who I'm voting. Rushing to pressure you is antitown as hell from my perspective. You are too bloodthirsty too fast.

[RationalMadman]

So you're not saying no lim day 1 is good for town, you're saying it's the less bad of two options?

Mafia gain a lot more from everything involved leading up to it than Town do, this is solely counteracted if Town hit the jackpot and vote off the most powerful of the Mafia. Even if Town hit Mafia and don't hit the roleblocker or equivalent active-role type of Scum, they've merely cancelled out the disadvantage, it depends how you 'weigh' things and how long you believe Scum can survive.

We know nothing about the setup if we are Town, except our own role (but a PR can intuit at least 2-3 plausible Mafia roles to counteract their role). Scum know more. Town won't work out more from what proceeds DP1 than they could have had they just shut up, rushed to no-eliminate and let PRs do what they do. Of course this can have bad luck outcomes, so be it is what I say. The Scum is more, not less, likely to hit right on their night phase powers the more that we interact and leak.

[RationalMadman]

Please explain to me how your reasoning for no lim day 1 cannot be applied to day 2 and beyond if the PRs are gated or do not want to claim for whatever reason they might have.

I never ever said DP2 is a no-lim. Ever.

Answer my quesiton please

On DP2 the investigate PR or PRs, depending if it's 1 or 2, will have either a result or a roleblock or be nightkilled. At this point unless both a nightkill happened and no living person has a result, there's minimum one useful thing (unless the result is on the dead other PR) for the Town to work with and take as a 'formation' of how to proceed the day phase. Either there's an objective clear to lead or a CC or indirect CC as a similar role claims and reveals the result. From there, there's then a much clearer way to divide people and read voting patterns later etc. I am having to reveal so much now to stop scum slipping how they would have in the no-elim series of events that it's becoming less optimal to do it anyway as they're going to split votes DP2 and realise what I'm looking for more and more as well as abuse what's leaked to them DP1 to the maximum capacity as I didn't want them to realise things such as that they can realise who most don't trust to decide who to frame etc.

[RationalMadman]

So you're not saying no lim day 1 is good for town, you're saying it's the less bad of two options?

Mafia gain a lot more from everything involved leading up to it than Town do, this is solely counteracted if Town hit the jackpot and vote off the most powerful of the Mafia. Even if Town hit Mafia and don't hit the roleblocker or equivalent active-role type of Scum, they've merely cancelled out the disadvantage, it depends how you 'weigh' things and how long you believe Scum can survive.

We know nothing about the setup if we are Town, except our own role (but a PR can intuit at least 2-3 plausible Mafia roles to counteract their role). Scum know more. Town won't work out more from what proceeds DP1 than they could have had they just shut up, rushed to no-eliminate and let PRs do what they do. Of course this can have bad luck outcomes, so be it is what I say. The Scum is more, not less, likely to hit right on their night phase powers the more that we interact and leak.

I'm not asking for an explinaiton, can you give me as yes/no answer please

A good option is the less bad of 2 options, you're asking a trick question.

[RationalMadman]

If we vote anyone it should be someone key to extending the DP and who is voting without a good reason.

Vote me then

If you are going to force it I eventually will. Until it's genuinely me vs you, I have to wait to see what happens. I am not eager to force you to claim, it benefits Scum even if you claim and are CC'd and are scum yourself. I need to wait to see others react and get a proper final decision on who I'm voting. Rushing to pressure you is antitown as hell from my perspective. You are too bloodthirsty too fast.

I'm VT
Bam
Claimed
I'm you're easy roll over and die VT claim that is your supposed best option to vote out day 1

You have helped Scum narrow down PRs massively by what you just did (unless you are Scum obviously). I am struggling to not violate the insult rule at this point. I'm not replying to you anymore.

[RationalMadman]

Outing role DP1 for no reason is antitown as fuck. Anyone who is not disgusted at that is just as bad unless they scumread it instead of assuming Town outed.

Oberbaalysing wagons is nonsense. Town unvote scum during DP1 wagons all the time and vice versa for joining wagons on Town. This is why later votes mean far more especially in clear this person vs that person dynamics. There, voting analysis begins to matter more.

Side note, very weird choice of words for Kayjayqueue to say driving a bus since that is solely used for one scum betraying a partner. Not sure what to even think of it as it is such a brutal slip it cannot be a real one.

[RationalMadman]

Overanalysing*

[RationalMadman]

Side note, very weird choice of words for Kayjayqueue to say driving a bus since that is solely used for one scum betraying a partner. Not sure what to even think of it as it is such a brutal slip it cannot be a real one.

If that is true, I honestly didn’t know the implication of that wording. I was just trying to make a joke. You could look through my other games and search that phrase, I’m fairly certain I’ve never encountered it. I’m still technically “new” so there are a few things I’m not completely familiar with when it comes to acronyms and keywords. If you’re going to scumread me for being uninformed on the lingo, okay, but it wasn’t a slip or whatever you’re insinuating.

https://epicmafia.fandom.com/wiki/Bus
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Bussing

[RationalMadman]

Side note, very weird choice of words for Kayjayqueue to say driving a bus since that is solely used for one scum betraying a partner. Not sure what to even think of it as it is such a brutal slip it cannot be a real one.

If that is true, I honestly didn’t know the implication of that wording. I was just trying to make a joke. You could look through my other games and search that phrase, I’m fairly certain I’ve never encountered it. I’m still technically “new” so there are a few things I’m not completely familiar with when it comes to acronyms and keywords. If you’re going to scumread me for being uninformed on the lingo, okay, but it wasn’t a slip or whatever you’re insinuating.

I townread you in general anyway and I am also certain that if you knew what the word meant you'd not have used the word bus there regardless.

[RationalMadman]

Everyone should want to end the DP ASAP. Mafia have too many reads already on who is PR and who scumreads who, you're making their life much easier by blabbing.

If we vote anyone it should be someone key to extending the DP and who is voting without a good reason.

Do you mean to post this in this game???

Of course

[RationalMadman]

RationalMadman, did you sincerely believe that people would follow through with your no elimination idea? i view it as NAI because it doesn't seem like something that half the game would sheep

I don't know, I hoped they would and didn't care if they didn't as I can play well under suboptimal conditions anyway.

[RationalMadman]

rational's writing style is so goofy
it seems super stream of consciousness

Not sure what to even think of it as it is such a brutal slip it cannot be a real one.

this seems pretty unnecessary

actually to think about it the entire byplay between rational and kay about the "slip" seems really weird
like it seems too small of a deal for that big of a conversation

kind of meme but {kay rational elements} solve ez

She thanked me for it because people like yourself never corrected her on it. Maybe take that into consideration when analysing it.

[RationalMadman]

Outing role DP1 for no reason is antitown as fuck. Anyone who is not disgusted at that is just as bad unless they scumread it instead of assuming Town outed.

Oberbaalysing wagons is nonsense. Town unvote scum during DP1 wagons all the time and vice versa for joining wagons on Town. This is why later votes mean far more especially in clear this person vs that person dynamics. There, voting analysis begins to matter more.

Side note, very weird choice of words for Kayjayqueue to say driving a bus since that is solely used for one scum betraying a partner. Not sure what to even think of it as it is such a brutal slip it cannot be a real one.

This seems like an overreaction. But so much of an overreaction that it may not come from scum

No it's not. It doesn't warrant a modkill itself but I'd ban her from any of my games if I were a game mod here, for sure. That kind of play is vile and has no place in mafia.

[RationalMadman]

If Town didn't agree to everyone fullclaiming and your role only helps Scum narrow down what to do NP1 even better, you never ever should out DP1. It's toxic, wrong and antitown.

[RationalMadman]

rational's writing style is so goofy
it seems super stream of consciousness

Not sure what to even think of it as it is such a brutal slip it cannot be a real one.

this seems pretty unnecessary

actually to think about it the entire byplay between rational and kay about the "slip" seems really weird
like it seems too small of a deal for that big of a conversation

kind of meme but {kay rational elements} solve ez

She thanked me for it because people like yourself never corrected her on it. Maybe take that into consideration when analysing it.

I was referencing how many words was in the conversation. I never said the conversation was unnecessary, I said that the superfluousness of it was unnecessary.

Your post is very confrontational. Why?

I both scumread you and you confronted me. I don't know why other people are passive, I am here to rip the Scum to pieces as they beg for mercy. That's how I approach Mafia. If other Townies get in the way of that they meet the same fierceness from me too. To temper this and avoid rule violations and stay calm is a combination most can't pull off so they either tone everything passive or try to play nice.

Streams of consciousness mockery of my high effort posts, which only Thomith is equalling effort of is not surprising Id then get stern or annoyed at you criticising both me and Kayjay and trying to frame us as scum.

I have probably the highest ratio of useful contributions Vs useless this game of any player here. You however said you'd read my posts and attack the logic later and never ever did.

As for the streams of consciousness remark, you aren't exactly wrong but I can't explain how other posts compare without insulting others. My posts tend to be productive if at times for nothing more than the chain events they set off in replies. If that is an issue for you, I couldn't care less and you can scumread me for being highly contributive in a way you don't like all you want. I have already explained why I scumread you anyway and am down to vote you off even.

[RationalMadman]

As much as I would love to gehad you continue to argue pointlessly, unfortunately, this is not mafia theory discussion thread. Please play the game instead.

Theory discussion is more part of play than the useless banter most do. I don't ban them from doing their banter and you can't stop me posting as I post.

Maybe consider your own tone before going ooooh why so confronttational

[RationalMadman]

Calls me goofy, says I ought to stop posting what I post, pretends I am the one starting confrontation.

[RationalMadman]

Frames me and kayjay too. Plays innocent. Fuck this. Actually what am I waiting for.

VOTE: awesoming

[RationalMadman]

Outing role DP1 for no reason is antitown as fuck. Anyone who is not disgusted at that is just as bad unless they scumread it instead of assuming Town outed.

Oberbaalysing wagons is nonsense. Town unvote scum during DP1 wagons all the time and vice versa for joining wagons on Town. This is why later votes mean far more especially in clear this person vs that person dynamics. There, voting analysis begins to matter more.

Side note, very weird choice of words for Kayjayqueue to say driving a bus since that is solely used for one scum betraying a partner. Not sure what to even think of it as it is such a brutal slip it cannot be a real one.

This seems like an overreaction. But so much of an overreaction that it may not come from scum

No it's not. It doesn't warrant a modkill itself but I'd ban her from any of my games if I were a game mod here, for sure. That kind of play is vile and has no place in mafia.

What the fuck are you even on about here??

Are you capable of reading what I replied to?

[RationalMadman]

Town randomly outing DP1 solely for the giggles helping Mafia narrow down PRs is a pro scum antitown move in every single way imaginable. I am shocked anything could be an overreaction to that. It's as borderline gamethrow as it gets before being gamethrow.

[RationalMadman]

Outing role DP1 for no reason is antitown as fuck. Anyone who is not disgusted at that is just as bad unless they scumread it instead of assuming Town outed.

Oberbaalysing wagons is nonsense. Town unvote scum during DP1 wagons all the time and vice versa for joining wagons on Town. This is why later votes mean far more especially in clear this person vs that person dynamics. There, voting analysis begins to matter more.

Side note, very weird choice of words for Kayjayqueue to say driving a bus since that is solely used for one scum betraying a partner. Not sure what to even think of it as it is such a brutal slip it cannot be a real one.

This seems like an overreaction. But so much of an overreaction that it may not come from scum

No it's not. It doesn't warrant a modkill itself but I'd ban her from any of my games if I were a game mod here, for sure. That kind of play is vile and has no place in mafia.

What the fuck are you even on about here??

The overreaction refers to me and what Elements did right?

[RationalMadman]

Outing role DP1 for no reason is antitown as fuck. Anyone who is not disgusted at that is just as bad unless they scumread it instead of assuming Town outed.

Oberbaalysing wagons is nonsense. Town unvote scum during DP1 wagons all the time and vice versa for joining wagons on Town. This is why later votes mean far more especially in clear this person vs that person dynamics. There, voting analysis begins to matter more.

Side note, very weird choice of words for Kayjayqueue to say driving a bus since that is solely used for one scum betraying a partner. Not sure what to even think of it as it is such a brutal slip it cannot be a real one.

This seems like an overreaction. But so much of an overreaction that it may not come from scum

No it's not. It doesn't warrant a modkill itself but I'd ban her from any of my games if I were a game mod here, for sure. That kind of play is vile and has no place in mafia.

What the fuck are you even on about here??

Are you capable of reading what I replied to?

Are you capable of playing the game instead of spam posts about game theory that make all of our eyes bleed? And capable of understanding that your take on a no-lim is wrong by all accounts? And that calling another player vile and having that gall to suggest that the mod should ban them is insane?

Don't be a narcissistic bully

You're literally ridiculing me while calling me a narcissistic bully.

[RationalMadman]

Mod, I believe users are abusing me and playing victim as if I ammthe aggressor. From calling me goofy to calming menanspam bot I am being provoked by many here. I ask if this is okay.

[RationalMadman]

I won't say anything back to it but this is genuine gaslighting going on where as I react to ridicule and insults in the way most would I get framed as a bully.

[RationalMadman]

Town randomly outing DP1 solely for the giggles helping Mafia narrow down PRs is a pro scum antitown move in every single way imaginable. I am shocked anything could be an overreaction to that. It's as borderline gamethrow as it gets before being gamethrow.

So you believe everything anyone says in a game of mafia?

I have seen town fake claim many many times.....I have fake claimed many many times.

It baffles me you have the gall to call her play vile and even mention a mod kill for it.....disagree with the play, sure...that is the game.

But you have had some wild theory's on how to play the game here, so you are in no place to criticize another person's play here.

Pre Edit: Don't insult other's if you can't take an insult

I said outing role DP1 without a very good reason is vile. I am done responding to you. Go gaslight someone else, I am not asking the bait. You are either one who can't take it back or one who is toxic and a waste of time to engage with.

You're encouraging fakeclaiming as Town in a simple Normal where everyone ought to hold Town accountable to claims. I'm that case Elements didn't claim but pretended to which is actual gamethrowing later she puts something else as nobody should believe her.

I am literally done replying to you. After this all game you don't exist to me unless others demand I respond to it. I know exactly how to handle your type. I am not the victim who will give you the reaction you want.

[RationalMadman]

Ok first post!
Generally, my reads so far are that DrNickRiviera and Elements seem most town to me. It's good to poke at the other players to get a feel for their playstyle before jumping to any conclusions.

I don't necessarily agree with voting on D1 but trying to turbo end DP1 without any kind of info gathering or reads is really scummy.

No major scum reads thus far, but if I had to point fingers it would probably go to VOTE: VOTE: RationalMadman because I just disagree with the game reasoning the user put forth overall. Mafia can't get too much of a PR read on DP1 since everyone is finding their footing anyway and posting without any real substance.

I see and you agree more with everyone else. Fascinating.

[RationalMadman]

I can get strong PR reads from DP1 as Scum btw. I can't speak for others and won't clarify what the clues are because they're a combination of ways a typical player operates when PR that indicate they aren't VT. It is not my problem if Scum are less capable of it than me, I must assume apex competence and play to defeat that degree of competent scum team. You don't based optimised game moves on a flawed opponent.

[RationalMadman]

And no, you can't get those clues from a rushed lack of elimination ending the DP fast.

[RationalMadman]

I can get strong PR reads from DP1 as Scum btw. I can't speak for others and won't clarify what the clues are because they're a combination of ways a typical player operates when PR that indicate they aren't VT. It is not my problem if Scum are less capable of it than me, I must assume apex competence and play to defeat that degree of competent scum team. You don't based optimised game moves on a flawed opponent.

You keep saying you're "so much better" than everyone yet haven't done anything to help the game state

And what exactly can be done to save it more than push for a fast NoElim? I am voting my most severe scumread who has done several things that indicate faking thought process and having ulterior motive, trying to rile another user up while pretending to be understanding etc.

I have not advocated and optimal path and confirmed to the less optimal one by risking the elimination of someone I scumread. I cannot possibly do more for the game state this early on into a closed setup.

[RationalMadman]

I have both*

Not I have not, was autocorrect.

[RationalMadman]

Why aren't you pointing the neuances out to help the rest of us to play on your level?

The nuances of reading PRs as scum? I have very good reason to hide that.

[RationalMadman]

Confirmed*

I will type on computer primarily from now on rest of DP. Phone keeps messing me up.

[RationalMadman]

Conformed***
It keeps changing it

[RationalMadman]

Why aren't you pointing the neuances out to help the rest of us to play on your level?

Also, I am being ridiculed for my high effort posts. Helping teach others how to play in such a toxic and/or ungrateful player base will only lead to more harassment of me and distraction from them reading others or telling authentically as scum Vs Town rather than seeing them at their worst.

[RationalMadman]

Why aren't you pointing the neuances out to help the rest of us to play on your level?

The nuances of reading PRs as scum? I have very good reason to hide that.

The nuances you mentioned in the preface to your read list

There are ways people say things, things they hyperfocus on in posts by others Vs not and more along those lines that show either that their primary motive is to grill people and use said grilling to build upon versus to get things out of people and merely let the replies sit there. Scum do a lot more of the latter and Town do a lot more of the former but this is over longer periods with more posts.

There are more nuances that show other things. Some things for person A are scummy for their psyche/approach while for person B are either Towny or a nulltell. You have to put together a personality like a jigsaw puzzle and see how over more posts as the game progresses the person seems to fit into a scum profile or Town. I don't owe you to explain more as I am told I am posting vomit tomlnthe eyes of sorts and don't want to waste effort on this game as it's clear to me the crowd is largely ot here for a proper tryhard game, only for a banter filled junk one, going soft at as to criticise me for the effort I put in as wasting their time (irony to the maximum).

I've explained enough.

[RationalMadman]

Not here for*

[RationalMadman]

Going so far as to*

[RationalMadman]

[
There are more nuances that show other things. Some things for person A are scummy for their psyche/approach while for person B are either Towny or a nulltell. You have to put together a personality like a jigsaw puzzle and see how over more posts as the game progresses the person seems to fit into a scum profile or Town. I don't owe you to explain more as I am told I am posting vomit tomlnthe eyes of sorts and don't want to waste effort on this game as it's clear to me the crowd is largely ot here for a proper tryhard game, only for a banter filled junk one, going soft at as to criticise me for the effort I put in as wasting their time (irony to the maximum).

I've explained enough.

How can you possibly know the specific personal nuances of a group of people you've never played with before?
I've been complaining about your obsession with no lims day 1.
I'd be more than happy for you to effort post about how you are reading specific players and the tells you think they have, I would welcome it. But all I'm getting back from you is "you don't deserve my views on the game because you're not playing correctly" which quite frankly is just making me think you don't have any are are just spouting nonsense.

I literally explained it. I even explained 'non nuanced' something already contradictory about awesomeming's entry and scummy that just got worse the more I got from him. Vote with me or don't that's your choice.

[RationalMadman]

I can't see a 'town Awesomeming' attacking me with ridicule there rather than with exploring the very idea he said he'd prove wrong.

I also noticed that he was rapid to switch from saying I'm town to saying oops he's not a noob and isn't Town just like he tried to say the interaction with me and Kayjay is weird and then goes 'oh stop talking mafia theory you're wasting effort and it's annoying and it was the length of reply'. Absolutely nothing from Awesomeming seems Towny.

I am also less sure Nick Riviera is Town but what Nick Riviera does that I prefer is he never pretended to give a shit what I'm writing. There is a significant difference between that and pretending to read it later and combat it while failing to. Lazy town that don't want to read and like to ridicule is still townreadable it's to do with consistency. Awesomeming tries to appear friendly while trying to rile others up, pretends to defend others while laying the foundation to scumread them and then backs out of it when attacked. Everything about it is textbook scum behaviour, nothing about Awesomeming's series of activity this day phase reads as Town to me. I am either massively wrong or right on the money.

[RationalMadman]

I can't see a 'town Awesomeming' attacking me with ridicule there rather than with exploring the very idea he said he'd prove wrong.

I also noticed that he was rapid to switch from saying I'm town to saying oops he's not a noob and isn't Town just like he tried to say the interaction with me and Kayjay is weird and then goes 'oh stop talking mafia theory you're wasting effort and it's annoying and it was the length of reply'. Absolutely nothing from Awesomeming seems Towny.

I am also less sure Nick Riviera is Town but what Nick Riviera does that I prefer is he never pretended to give a shit what I'm writing. There is a significant difference between that and pretending to read it later and combat it while failing to. Lazy town that don't want to read and like to ridicule is still townreadable it's to do with consistency. Awesomeming tries to appear friendly while trying to rile others up, pretends to defend others while laying the foundation to scumread them and then backs out of it when attacked. Everything about it is textbook scum behaviour, nothing about Awesomeming's series of activity this day phase reads as Town to me. I am either massively wrong or right on the money.

If you were massively wrong, how would this change your reads/the direction you'd look to go in?

I mean it's one data point. I am not sure is the answer, I have seen consistent scumtells from the player and total absence of town thought process. I can call him a severe anomaly but if he isn't a high skilled anomaly then it's my error. I genuinely don't think I am wrong to the extent the answer is difficult for me. Nothing about his actions during this DP add up if they're from a genuine Towny.

[RationalMadman]

I think Grovyle is probably town being one of the only slots in the game to try and get discussion away from the RationalMadman discourse

I think the attempt to stir up something "spicy" by pushing me and then moving away or getting bored when he didn't really get a reaction is probably town

there's a whole lot of noise in this thread so this read isn't exceptionally strong, but grovyle is at least trying to cut through that noise to some degree

Agreed, his bouncing is Towny though it lacks followup it is much better than others did in this DP. It feels authentically trying to get reactions outside of the dynamic with me as you put it. I Townread him and you both firmly. I have looser Townreads on Nick Riviera and KayjayQueue and actually Elements is becoming a townread but is antitown despite it.

[RationalMadman]

@Rational
I'm re-reading your thoughts on awesomeming and don't fully follow what you said in 262, could you clarify that for me?

Either you are repeatedly trolling me or you and I don't think alike at all.

You've asked me for claim things again and again and every time you say my explanation needs an explanation. This is either intentional trolling or pointless to engage with as I already gave the explanations for several things.

[RationalMadman]

I would rather be grilled directly than talked of in third person as an 'agreed' nontownread which idk what that means does it just means nullread or leaning scum?

[RationalMadman]

How does my phone autocorrect 'to explain' to for claim? It's like it has context from the website and is wrongly doing it.

[RationalMadman]

I'm scum reading Hu Tao and DrNickRiviera.

I think 111 and 113 from the Dr are more likely to come from scum.

1. the argument itself feels focused on catching Thomith in an inconsistency instead of trying to look at the tone or context surrounding Thomith's vote and unvote
   
2. the way the argument is presented as "everyone look at Exhibit A" is the kind of performative 'talking to the crowd' type rhetoric that comes from scum a lot more than town who think they are onto something

I'm not a huge fan of their posts later engaging Rational, they feel along the lines of how scum might try to engage Rational in order to look good but without really needing to engage in direct content.

I also don't understand why they have me as solidly town that feels out of nowhere

*****

I think Hu Tao's reaction to me in 333 is weird. There's not much genuine frustration here or an attempt to engage me, instead the focus is on the fact that Hu Tao was trying to reaction test, which feels overly LAMIST and honestly I expect more from town!hu at this stage in the game.

I also don't really think SaltiestCactus' posts are scummy but I do think they are the kind of low-hanging posts that scum like to jump on.

****

as for other reads, I'm fine having Grovyle as town for now. I think elements is probably town too. I think her trajectory on Rational doesn't really make sense as scum. I think her initial vote is very visibly weak and I don't think scum makes such an optically bad vote. in general, I think at this point most scum players are going to be town reading Rational (maybe regardless of his alignment)

I think Rational probably leans town and that's probably the simplest answer to his frenzied posting, but I'm not as sure as I'd like to be. I think there's a certain point where most people, even if they strongly believe in what is optimal, will give in out of frustration or try to amicably work with people in some fashion. Rational not letting go of his "no eliminate on D1" philosophy to such a strong degree has me worried he might just be hiding behind that argument

I think Thomith leans towny, I think the way he's engaged so far (especially Rational) hasn't been all that performative and has been keen at trying to get some productive content going

I've dropped it and voted. I only kept talking about it as people kept saying it is based on flawed logic.

[RationalMadman]

I am also having a hard time getting into this game and I feel myself forcing a little

I guess right now my senses are tuned towards people who are vibing and trying to look town because this seems like a gamestate where scum don't have to do much more than that

I saw this coming, hence why I knew Town gains less than mafia if mafia and town both are competent here, by elongating the DP rather than giving PRs a chance to catch something.

[RationalMadman]

However, I've spotted a scum member, awesoming that is 0% Towntelling and am happy with my vote.

[RationalMadman]

I could vote awesomeming

I don't think they've particularly town told

I don't think they're particularly scummy either

How is Hu Tao 'particularly scummy' where awesomeming isn't?

[RationalMadman]

I vote awesomeming and encourage all to sheep it. I am quite sure of this. I even like the fact there doesn't seem tombe opportunistic scum joining in fast to it using me as a shield of aggression.

[RationalMadman]

I vote awesomeming and encourage all to sheep it. I am quite sure of this. I even like the fact there doesn't seem tombe opportunistic scum joining in fast to it using me as a shield of aggression.

The shield part can happen if I were to lead on Town and was sure they're scum in what I posted.

[RationalMadman]

I vote awesomeming and encourage all to sheep it. I am quite sure of this. I even like the fact there doesn't seem tombe opportunistic scum joining in fast to it using me as a shield of aggression.

I don't find your case convincing

You can copy paste that all game long as long as we are both alive as I sense you're going to always reply that to me about anything I say.

[RationalMadman]

I literally asked you to explain it to me again and you didn't

I did.

I've explained everything you asked me to. To which you ask me to explain and then again ask until you say it's nonsense or doesn't convince you.

The reason I bother is as troll a player as you are, the Town as a whole is genuinely at a level where you're one of the highest contributors in the DP for me to interact with.

[RationalMadman]

Well for instance I re-explained my reasoning behind the NoElim around 5 times on top of the first but each resulted in you pretending I never explained it.

I explained all my reads but you then interrogate the nuances to which I expanded on what they are and you pretend I explained nothing.

So, now that you ask me to explain my scumread on awesoming on the post I explained it, I don't see why to bother.

[RationalMadman]

If it isn't true reply to my posts, the actual contents of them and prove it. I think you're lying.

[RationalMadman]

Well for instance I re-explained my reasoning behind the NoElim around 5 times on top of the first but each resulted in you pretending I never explained it.

I explained all my reads but you then interrogate the nuances to which I expanded on what they are and you pretend I explained nothing.

So, now that you ask me to explain my scumread on awesoming on the post I explained it, I don't see why to bother.

I didn't explain my Townreads necessarily.

[RationalMadman]

But Townreads are based on people interacting while not being scummy in general. I read for scum and Townreads are ethos consistently not hitting the radar minus sheer lurkers.

[RationalMadman]

Wtf autocorrect

[RationalMadman]

But Townreads are based on people interacting while not being scummy in general. I read for scum and Townreads are ethos consistently not hitting the radar minus sheer lurkers.

Those, not ethos.

[RationalMadman]

Please explain to me how your reasoning for no lim day 1 cannot be applied to day 2 and beyond if the PRs are gated or do not want to claim for whatever reason they might have.

I never ever said DP2 is a no-lim. Ever.

Answer my quesiton please

At this point unless both a nightkill happened and no living person has a result

What happens iday 2 in this scenario?

Please explain to me how your reasoning for no lim day 1 cannot be applied to day 2 and beyond if the PRs are gated or do not want to claim for whatever reason they might have.

I never ever said DP2 is a no-lim. Ever.

Answer my quesiton please

you haven't answered either of these

Yes I have. DP2 is a normal day, normal pressure whatever. Hopefully with a report on another player and claim leading toa crush proper structure of who to revolve the DP around and real situations where reactions actually matter to read rather than this DP1 chaos.

I said this when I said DP2 should be medium pressure and DP3 should be higher pressure in another post I made shortly after you asked that I think. I am not rereading while typing this but going by memory.

Surely they're both the same question asked differently.

[RationalMadman]

You can't make a quote a spoiler??

[RationalMadman]

Let DP2 be medium pressure and DP3 be high pressure. We don't need any nonsense DP1 leaking anything to Mafia. That's my belief. It's antitown pressure whereas revolving it around PRs DP2 and DP3 is where we really crack setups and have useful info of some kind to watch people respond to and bounce reads off of.

@elements

[RationalMadman]

Yes I have. DP2 is a normal day, normal pressure whatever. Hopefully with a report on another player and claim leading toa crush proper structure of who to revolve the DP around and real situations where reactions actually matter to read rather than this DP1 chaos.

But if no one says anything on day 1 and there is not PR claims at the start of day 2, what is actually the difference in game state other than having less town players alive?

Spoiler: spoiler

You have to use the spoiler= tags to spoiler quotes

Well if Mafia hit jackpot and kill a significant PR before it is useful then nothing but the mafia will claim such a PR anyway when voted DP1 and either force out a CC or end up lucky and unCCd and later end up winning a clash probably.

I admit ironically that the case the mafia is not CCd means they lack information on PRs in terms of who but now out of the simple normal PRs they know one that is not present in the game and as others unvote them due to no CC it means that Town has to hit 1 in 6 chances of the 2 in 12 others and have the Scum probably decide which one ends up going as the temporary clear.

It's just a lot of lose-lose scenarios.

[RationalMadman]

Or win but lose with the win like get rid of mafia but expose PR to them.

[RationalMadman]

I wanna vote in Gibdo/Salty/Rational/Hu today
In no particular order

Why do you Townread awesomeming

[RationalMadman]

Rational do you have an alt account?

No I just get burnout and prefer other hobbies to Mafia. When I play it can go like this. It's not am emotionally rewarding game for me with Towns like this.

[RationalMadman]

Ok first post!
Generally, my reads so far are that DrNickRiviera and Elements seem most town to me. It's good to poke at the other players to get a feel for their playstyle before jumping to any conclusions.

I don't necessarily agree with voting on D1 but trying to turbo end DP1 without any kind of info gathering or reads is really scummy.

No major scum reads thus far, but if I had to point fingers it would probably go to VOTE: VOTE: RationalMadman because I just disagree with the game reasoning the user put forth overall. Mafia can't get too much of a PR read on DP1 since everyone is finding their footing anyway and posting without any real substance.

you said you don't necessarily agree with voting someone out on Day 1 but you also voted Rational who has been the biggest advocate for not voting someone out, can you explain more on why? do you think your disagreement with Rational's takes mean he's more likely to be scum?

I think Rational is mostly just contributing to a line of discussion that isn't very productive for the town. (Elements was a little bit too, but I got the vibe that she was moreso trying to pick apart the idea, which seems towny to me.) I have a scummy-ish read on Rational but it could just be a more confrontational playstyle, idk.

She didn't really pick it apart. She asked me to explain it on repeat. My idea was good for Town.

[RationalMadman]

The OMGUS from awesomeming while saying I omgus him is comedy.

[RationalMadman]

I am so down for this showdown.

[RationalMadman]

i dont buy the reasons for elements being town here, feels like cope more than actual analysis (or straight up BS from certain people) - but awesomeming's post has made me consider an angle i had previously discarded(that i'm personally weak to) and uh kinda awkward but they have a point im giving rational too little credit and shortcutting my read on the basis that i should not respect them which I tend to do too often

VOTE: RationalMadman
lets see how he handles one of his townreads turning on him at the very least

You shouldn't be happy when voting on barely anything. Town shouldn't reaction test people reacting to a townread voting them, only reaction test people reacting to a null or scumread voting them. All you're doing if I am Town and you are Town is sabotaging both the game and our synergy. The smirking emoji is going to wipe away real fast when and if I am dead and flipped.

[RationalMadman]

I've not come across this nonchalant 'lets vote for a reaction hehe' from Townies much before unless it's combined with a scumread on said player.

[RationalMadman]

Well I have but only from terrible Town.

[RationalMadman]

Combining these three posts you said you messed up townreading me for being new as I am not. Then you said you'd get back to it later to address my posts and prove them wrong.

You now deny that you ever said that and instead just say goofy writing style and never address them. It's weak, it's scumtell and it's a lie to say you didn't say you'd get back to them later.

[RationalMadman]

[quote=awesomeming327 post_id=14150646 post_num=98 time=1712433253 user_id=37392
And no not really I changed my mind rational is not a newbie and my thing only applies for newbies

Lovely
Come vote with me

No
Still on vacation
Will read rationals posts tomorrow (rather than today)
[/quote]

In my experience people who openly advocate for no elim are town

the meta on this site is very anti no-lim day 1
given that Rational joined in 2013 I'm sure he's experienced enough to know that

well yes so is mine; but people usually just correct them and say that no elim is bad. People generally don’t treat it as alignment indicative but I think they’re town

But they were all newbies uhh

In my experience people who openly advocate for no elim are town
That’s from my site though things might be different here
I guess the reason is that the vibe that comes with advocating no elim is uninformed

[RationalMadman]

Those are the quotes^

Backpedalling instantly on townreading me for being new, never ever addressing the flogic behind my NoElim push later or my posts beyond calling them goofy and having backed nobody and pretended to defend those he scumreads.

[RationalMadman]

No thanks. I don't care to prove anything and I took a long break from the game in general.

People can believe what they want. My logic is sound. Either they agree with it or do not. Either they read awesomeming as transparent scum or not. I am not interested.

Treat me as if I am the worst player on Earth. It doesn't affect me because I know that's your error and I have nothing to prove. Instead of focusing on me and my tells focus on the logic of what is being said.

One side says mitigate mafia advantage the other says it's goofy, makes you want to rip your eyes out reading it and that I am wrong and dismissed as this cute kid throwing a tantrum that the big boys and girls will ignore. Meanwhile I'm the wise one and they're the immature ones.

Others got more obsessed with this NoElim thing than me. Constantly saying it's obviously wrong rather than admitting I was correct and Town prefer the fun of scum hunting for the sake of it DP1 instead.

[RationalMadman]

This RationalMadman wagon stinks

Agreed. However you aren't voting with me either so this could be an angle of 'oh no I told you so but won't really fight it' for DP2 when I'm either dead as vanilla or alive/dead/useless as naked PR.

The username thing as Elements said was due to the word Radical which I think was more a Freudian slip if how she perceived me than a pure autocorrect thing.

RM is 2 letters, shorter than many shorter usernames and no other username has those 'initials' here. Therefore that works best if you're wanting to type it fast. I assumed that was a common thing to realise for longer usernames but people seem to not do that here.

[RationalMadman]

RM is 2 letters, shorter than many shorter usernames and no other username has those 'initials' here.

Meaning in this game.

[RationalMadman]

People can believe what they want. My logic is sound. Either they agree with it or do not. Either they read awesomeming as transparent scum or not. I am not interested.

Why would you not be interested in catching red team?

I am interested in that. Not in using off-site games or what others read me as and think of me as I've not done anything to scumtell, I am sure of it.

Treat me as if I am the worst player on Earth. It doesn't affect me because I know that's your error and I have nothing to prove. Instead of focusing on me and my tells focus on the logic of what is being said.

Logic is irrellevent of alignment. Tells are how you can determine someone's team.

Scum use faulty logic both in who they pick fights with and the way they go about reasoning their reads or game theory based decisions/suggestions. Town even if wrong have more sound internal logic as they're not basing they're decisions on sole survival and deflection but also on accurate reads and offense.

One side says mitigate mafia advantage the other says it's goofy, makes you want to rip your eyes out reading it and that I am wrong and dismissed as this cute kid throwing a tantrum that the big boys and girls will ignore. Meanwhile I'm the wise one and they're the immature ones.

Stop saying you're better than all of us, it's getting tiresome.

Then stop constantly ridiculing me as this moron on the side of everything that had a stupid idea everyone dismissed on good grounds. I had a sound idea everyone dismissed on impulsive grounds. I firmly stand by that and won't give an inch of ground to those saying shut up you were wrong or calling it goofy or whatever else.

Others got more obsessed with this NoElim thing than me. Constantly saying it's obviously wrong rather than admitting I was correct and Town prefer the fun of scum hunting for the sake of it DP1 instead.

How is us saying you were obviously wrong any different from you saying you are obviously correct?

[/quote]

I never once said I am obviously correct. I went through the effort of expanding and explaining the logic over and over and over and over. It got ridiculed, ignored and is treated as identical to just saying I am right on repeat which is not at all what I did. I didn't assume it was obvious, I went into depth explaining the reasoning.

[RationalMadman]

I never once said I am obviously correct.

You're right. I take it back and am sorry for that miscatagorisation of what you were saying

Spoiler:

No Elim is optimal here, I am certain of it.

Implying anyone that isn't is wrong

You may think you proved me wrong but you proved my original theory even more correct.

You're wrong, I'm right

which is infallible and can't be argued against, sorry to flex it but it's true and I think he realised this as he read it but left it for later

I'm right

It is very simple if you understand the more complex parts

But you don't under stand the complex parts whereas I do

I only care that the other 9 all seem against no elimination. They are incorrect

You're wrong

I don't know, I hoped they would and didn't care if they didn't as I can play well under suboptimal conditions anyway.

If no one listens to me, the game will be played sub-optimally because I know best

I have probably the highest ratio of useful contributions Vs useless this game of any player here.

...

I can get strong PR reads from DP1 as Scum btw. I can't speak for others .......... It is not my problem if Scum are less capable of it than me, I must assume apex competence and play to defeat that degree of competent scum team. You don't based optimised game moves on a flawed opponent.

I'm really good as red team, not my fault if none of you are

Well I have but only from terrible Town.

Literally just calling awesome terrible

I am right, it doesn't mean it's obvious.

[RationalMadman]

People can believe what they want. My logic is sound. Either they agree with it or do not. Either they read awesomeming as transparent scum or not. I am not interested.

Why would you not be interested in catching red team?

I am interested in that. Not in using off-site games or what others read me as and think of me as I've not done anything to scumtell, I am sure of it.

You literally said you aren't interesting in people believing you. You need town's support to get rid of the red team.

If Town are not going to listen to me and vote me off for no coherent reason, the Scum deserve to defeat them, de facto. Otherwise I could always make Town win.

Treat me as if I am the worst player on Earth. It doesn't affect me because I know that's your error and I have nothing to prove. Instead of focusing on me and my tells focus on the logic of what is being said.

Logic is irrellevent of alignment. Tells are how you can determine someone's team.

[RationalMadman]

Logic is part of tells.

[RationalMadman]

This RationalMadman wagon stinks

Agreed. However you aren't voting with me either so this could be an angle of 'oh no I told you so but won't really fight it' for DP2 when I'm either dead as vanilla or alive/dead/useless as naked PR.

How are you reading Thomith atm?

I am not sure and it won't serve me to fight Thomith at all. Whether he is scum I can get to bus his partner or whatever else.

He may well be scum playing the middle of this fight of me vs awesoming and others against me. It doesn't serve me to call him out on it directly and change this to be me Vs Thomith. Thomith is easily Town to begin with, I can't read the player well.

[RationalMadman]

I wanna vote in Gibdo/Salty/Rational/Hu today
In no particular order

Why do you Townread awesomeming

Why do you assume that not scumread implies townread?

Do you think this assumption is AI from RationalMadman?

It wasn't an assumption, anyone outside the pool of who one is willing to vote are leaning Town.

[RationalMadman]

I wanna vote in Gibdo/Salty/Rational/Hu today
In no particular order

Why do you Townread awesomeming

Why do you assume that not scumread implies townread?

Do you think this assumption is AI from RationalMadman?

It wasn't an assumption, anyone outside the pool of who one is willing to vote are leaning Town.

On early DPs at least.

[RationalMadman]

actually on top of thomith taking saltiest's remark about me and him seriously I'm looking at his early interactions with elements and it does NOT look town motivated

VOTE: Thomith

What is your read on awesomeming vs me? How are you perceiving it?

[RationalMadman]

VOTE: Thomith

Thomith can you tell me which votes on Rational you think “stink” and why?

You told me you don't Townread awesomeming yet you voted me and now Thomith over this user you outright refuse to vote... Strange.

[RationalMadman]

VOTE: Thomith

Thomith can you tell me which votes on Rational you think “stink” and why?

Why did you vote me and now Thomith? Looks opportunistic, trying to be the 3 or 4 of 7 seeing what sticks. Very strange.

[RationalMadman]

actually on top of thomith taking saltiest's remark about me and him seriously I'm looking at his early interactions with elements and it does NOT look town motivated

VOTE: Thomith

Can you please expand on your read on awesomeming? I don't understand anyone who isn't voting him at this point. He has scumtold to a T.

[RationalMadman]

I think I've settled on you likely being town but I think Thomith might be whiteknighting you a bit too hard

gun to head I think the wagon on you is town driven right now

The wagon was you? Gibdo and awesomeming were the first 2, isn't it only a wagon after 3?

[RationalMadman]

VOTE: Thomith

Thomith can you tell me which votes on Rational you think “stink” and why?

Why did you vote me and now Thomith? Looks opportunistic, trying to be the 3 or 4 of 7 seeing what sticks. Very strange.

my reads are fluid

You Townread scummy players. Awesomeming and gibdo voting me you Townread for NO reason.

[RationalMadman]

Forcing a claim from Thomith is so scummy.

[RationalMadman]

This is truly a terrible outcome. I wish we all vote awesomeming.

[RationalMadman]

There is something seriously wrong with the speed of this wagon, I recommend anyone on it to unvote ASAP.

[RationalMadman]

Unvote Thomith immediately. There is a scum member in the last 3 votes on him. This is opportunism. Nothing about this is how a natural Town wagon builds.

[RationalMadman]

you're wrong

About what? Fluid but solid at once?

[RationalMadman]

This is truly a terrible outcome. I wish we all vote awesomeming.

your arguments are not convincing.

How is Town ever replying this? This is Scum laughing at the situation.

[RationalMadman]

Acknowledging the wagon on me.

Just got home from work, let me eat, then ill set down and respond to everything.

I don't know why me claiming is being brought up, as I don't think I'm in range for a claim to be requested of me yet, but let me know if I'm wrong.

One more vote and you're at gunpoint.

[RationalMadman]

Cool. I'm cooking, will be back to respond after.

Wouldn't be so calm if I were you.

[RationalMadman]

There is something seriously wrong with the speed of this wagon, I recommend anyone on it to unvote ASAP.

what are you worried is going to happen?

Stop with the antitown questions. You're trying to know my PR reads. It's toxic as fuck.

[RationalMadman]

gun to head, do you have a read on Rational right now, Thomith?

Town.

My instinct says that scum likely don't draw this much attention to themselves this early. I understand this may be more of a playstyle thing, and this logic can be quite WIFOMy, but the fact that a lot of the early votes, or most recent wagon votes weren't necessarily due to scumreading Rational, and seemed more votes out of annoyance or general disagreement, I think this compounds into Rational being an easy wagon, which makes me inclined to think he is a scapegoat vote, so is more likely to be town.

On a separate note if you are Town, I am over 80% sure that one of dannflor, Elements or Snivy is scum. There was something totally out of where with how they just piled on you there. However, I believe ONLY one of the three is given how it went down.

I don't understand why of them suddenly voted you, seemed to be taking advantage of many outing suspicion on you (including me).

[RationalMadman]

Out of nowhere*

[RationalMadman]

I actually think Elements may be scum despite how obviously antitown she has been all day. I doubted it as she seemed to be trolling me as a VT troll but maybe she is just straight up scum intentionally asking me to explain everything over and over and over and over

[RationalMadman]

And she outed as VT which is also something I don't know if she is that antitown as town to do or not.

[RationalMadman]

Elements, awesomeming and a third I can't put my finger on add up well as a team. This also explains why Elements triangle didn't grill awesomeming despite seeming to question a lot of other players.

[RationalMadman]

Strangely not triangle

[RationalMadman]

Everyone should vote awesomeming this moment.

Or you can vote me. That is the choice offered and the ultimate way this day phase has to end.

[RationalMadman]

I am certain of it. This is the natural ending, voting outside it is futile. I will lead us to victory.

[RationalMadman]

I am certain of it. This is the natural ending, voting outside it is futile. I will lead us to victory.

You won’t entertain anything besides this the rest of Day 1?

People are itching to vote me. Let them scratch the itch and suffer voting off Town. Some only learn the hard way.

[RationalMadman]

I am sure of my read on awesomeming.

[RationalMadman]

If I am to play here more often I absolutely don't want a meta of me that I cave into the general playerbase of a game suspecting me over nothing. That's terrible meta to have, makes you weak and malleable to scum or bad Town bullying you.

[RationalMadman]

If not, I'd still rather people just vote me off and sheep my reads after. If they still ignore me after I am dead Town, then I can't save them more.

[RationalMadman]

I do take back my Townread on dannflor though, dude is an opportunistic backstabber going for the easiest elimination possible betraying his own reads. Elements is doing the same but doesn't make her reads clear so she can vote whoever.

[RationalMadman]

I empathize with Elements' Rational vote even though I think Rational is probably town

Why

Because I think Rational's posting is actively harmful to Town EV at worst and annoying/creating disengagement at best

If I am alive at the end of game I'll tear scum to pieces. Underestimate me at scum's own risk.

[RationalMadman]

Dannflor voted me and now says he townreads me XD

[RationalMadman]

Anyway I'm not saying I want to eliminate Rational I'm just saying I empathize with the emotions that lead to Elements' vote

Which only is possible if you don't think she is Scum scared of me ripping her team to pieces later.

[RationalMadman]

Or if you are Scum and know she isn't. Or if you are here partner but I significantly doubt that.

[RationalMadman]

Awesomeming, Elements and... Drummrooooollll dripping goofball

This is the team. At least for now those are my reads. Sheep me and win.

I am most certain of Awesomeming

[RationalMadman]

I mostly agree, but I'm not comfortable writing off Rational as obvious town. If he's experienced as he has repeatedly claimed, it's still very possible he's just causing a huge scene now to mitigate suspicions on him later.

Join me in slaying awesomeming Ty.

[RationalMadman]

Hu Tao if you Townread me so surely, why not joing my vote on awesomeming?

[RationalMadman]

VOTE: cCS
I think I dislike this vote on me the most.

also why exactly? I'm the only one who didn't wagon you for the sake of wagoning you

For some reason Dannflor and Elements get VIP privilege to do scummy sheep votes on everyone for the looks.

[RationalMadman]

The lols*

[RationalMadman]

It's so antitown and ridiculous.

[RationalMadman]

team is probably something like gibido/cactus/elements atp but knowing myself thats probably only 2/3. i don't think this is a difficult game though even if part of that is wrong tho (unless it is a hard game in which case good luck yall im always dead before limlo)

Then why the fuck did you enable a wagon to form on me?

[RationalMadman]

Hu Tao if you Townread me so surely, why not joing my vote on awesomeming?

Just because you're town doesn't mean you're right

Why do you townread awesomeming?

[RationalMadman]

i like voting people i don't necessarily want dead or even scum read to see how people react and how people might choose to join or not join the wagon

grovyle is trying to solve the game I think

can you just take a step back and relax for a moment? You're not going to die today

If you're town, I do actually want to work with you, but you spending every waking moment in thread shouting at people about how bad they are and how good you are does nothing to help and actively makes people tune you out

I haven't been doing that, it's a delusion people keep saying about me. I have been productive with my questions and replies.

[RationalMadman]

Idc if I die or not, my primary issue is making sure that since we wasted the no-elim opportunity, we land on scum and not town.

[RationalMadman]

so me not dying isn't much relief, just slight.

[RationalMadman]

no-elimination is sometimes optimal if there's an even number of people alive to bring the game back to odds, (this is because it's easier to hit scum with an odd number of people alive) or if there has been a mass-claim and night actions can secure a win, but those are pretty niche circumstances

That's not even remotely how it works. That's nonsense talk.

[RationalMadman]

I think the mentality behind 563 and the whole way Hu Tao has approached Rational and the wagon on Rational is scum indicative

I think Rational probably looks the most like untouchable obvious town to scum that are informed of his alignment. All of me, elements, Gibdo and Grovyle have voted Rational or expressed annoyance about Rational while also staying he might be town. We can’t all be scum, and I’d wager the majority of us, if not all, are uninformed of Rational’s alignment and are unable to just do a robotic “yep Rational obvtown time to ignore his posts”

also think she’d probably be more interested in searching for the scum pushing Rational if she indeed thinks Rational is obv town and any votes on him are ridiculous

Unlucky. He is obviously town

This is certainly the "easy" answer but is it the right answer?

Yes it is. You know what else is 'easy' hyperfocusing on me when if you were Town you'd have 11 others to be concerned with.

[RationalMadman]

I think the mentality behind 563 and the whole way Hu Tao has approached Rational and the wagon on Rational is scum indicative

I think Rational probably looks the most like untouchable obvious town to scum that are informed of his alignment. All of me, elements, Gibdo and Grovyle have voted Rational or expressed annoyance about Rational while also staying he might be town. We can’t all be scum, and I’d wager the majority of us, if not all, are uninformed of Rational’s alignment and are unable to just do a robotic “yep Rational obvtown time to ignore his posts”

also think she’d probably be more interested in searching for the scum pushing Rational if she indeed thinks Rational is obv town and any votes on him are ridiculous

Unlucky. He is obviously town

This is certainly the "easy" answer but is it the right answer?

Yes it is. You know what else is 'easy' hyperfocusing on me when if you were Town you'd have 11 others to be concerned with.

there is one person that is hyperfocusing currently (hint: it's not me)

Yes it is. Your only scumread is me in fact that is your only outed read all game.

[RationalMadman]

There is no use to delay the vote on awesomeming

[RationalMadman]

There is no use to delay the vote on awesomeming

Except to vote CCS, or Thomith, or Hu

Yes I have turned on Hu

Who have collectively as 3 had less scumtells than awesomeming alone

[RationalMadman]

I see you scum.

[RationalMadman]

First member to be eliminated shall be awesomeming, other 2 can be handled later.

[RationalMadman]

There is no use to delay the vote on awesomeming

Except to vote CCS, or Thomith, or Hu

Yes I have turned on Hu

Who have collectively as 3 had less scumtells than awesomeming alone

All according to you?

Objectively. List them then list awesomeming's.

[RationalMadman]

When awesomeming flips Scum, not if but when, the next person to be eliminated if I die NP2 has to be Elements. Without a doubt.

[RationalMadman]

I mean NP1

[RationalMadman]

But NP2 also. Whenever I did do that after.

[RationalMadman]

They will not frame me if awesomeming is gone, they will just gun for me

[RationalMadman]

Idk why Grovyle is voting me btw but it's becoming stupid.

[RationalMadman]

How tf is awesomeming being Townread by anybody? It's crazy how hard the wagon on him has been to get going, only further cementing the idea he is scum to me and that one of the wagon blazers (elements and Dannflor) is enabling distraction-wagons from their partners, meaning Thomith isn't scum if either of them is.

[RationalMadman]

Awesomeming should have both wagon blazers on him if both were Town. There is something untouchable about him to them, I wonder what.

[RationalMadman]

Nickriviera, Awesomeming and Elements... Adds up well too. Very very well if we observe the interactions so far.

[RationalMadman]

it’s been hard to get a substantial lasting wagon on anyone

@DrNick I’d prefer you join the Hu Tao wagon if you have suspicions there

No wagon has been harder than the Awesomeming wagon.

[RationalMadman]

it’s been hard to get a substantial lasting wagon on anyone

@DrNick I’d prefer you join the Hu Tao wagon if you have suspicions there

I encourage everyone to suspect you tomthe highest degree if you never switch to awesomeming.

[RationalMadman]

Can't believe I was wrong on you being towny from your first reply to me.

[RationalMadman]

Awesomeming easy scum

[RationalMadman]

gibdo and salty are also very unremarkable posting

Honestly so am I. I’ve felt so disconnected from this game. I feel like a lot of the game is being dictated to me and not enough is me actually participating and developing reads.

I’m really trying to figure out why I’m not feeling it and fix it.

Be the change you want to be lol

Let's have a thought experiment

Gun to your head, who is the scum team

I will respond with mine as well

Where did you respond with yours?

[RationalMadman]

rationalmadman im starting to get behind your read on awesoming but considering his acc age its far too early to be pushing this hard.
imo it is hard to get a proper read on awesoming if youre breathing down this neck.

No it's not. It's easy. Pressure leads to tells.

[RationalMadman]

look rational if i was scum and wanted to get town read by you, believe me, i could

I don't believe you. Empty threats are futile to me.

[RationalMadman]

Hu Tao if you Townread me so surely, why not joing my vote on awesomeming?

Just because you're town doesn't mean you're right

Why do you townread awesomeming?

Vibes. Seems to be solving

Where? All he's done is suspect me.