Mini 998: Physics Mafia - Game Over!

[Ythill]

Holding back to hammer instead of placing Kdub at L-1 seems at odds with the later claim that putting a player at L-1 is not dangerous.

I'd rather be the hammer than any other vote, especially near deadline. Personal preference.

Ythill is stating that players should not claim until they are at L-1 AND a hammer vote is threatened. Is this correct?

Yessir. Thanks for the analysis, though it wasn't exactly what I was asking you about. I'm more interested in your (and everyone's) opinions about Kdub moving quickly from under everyone's radar to one of the top three potential lynches. It was very fast and, during that time, only myself, nopoint and (to a lesser extent) Jack attacked him.

[Socrates]

@Socrates-
Are you claiming that you are intentionally not participating?

I've just gone mad with power, done mind me. Also, apparently one can all but claim scum in thread and people will just ignore you if it doesn't fit with their view of the game-state, or something. I'm sure I could turn that into some kind of commentary about scumhunting, but I don't have the energy right now.

I wonder how long I can keep this up before a wagon actually forms on me. I mean, if I - who is trying to act scummy - doesn't get lynched, and somebody else - who isn't - does, then...

I don't know how to end that sentence.

[Ythill]

Problem is, I can't think of any reason for anyone to intentionally act scummy, other than the aforementioned roles. What are your intentions? Also, you still haven't explained your theory about a two-man scumteam. Please do.

[Herodotus]

I thought I would be able to post earlier but some responsibilities came up. I expect to catch up within 26 hours.

[Ythill]

Hello? Heeeelloooooooo?

There is no reason to be on the "not voting" list at this point and yet three of you are on it.

[Stef]

Me - Concept
Ythill - Concept
Hero - Person
Ani - Person
Ooba - Concept
MS - Concept
Kast - Concept
nopoint - Person
Jack(dead) - Concept (VT)
Kdub(dead) - Person (scum PR)
Exe(dead) - Person (town PR)

Basically I'm going to explain what I thought about flavor throughout the game and what I think about it now.

Initially I thought that all townies are concepts. Then my line of thought migrated to persons are scum&PRs. Then I considered persons only being PRs.

I would have still claimed that my theory holds water considering that there are so many concepts left and only two claimed persons with the dead mafia being a person as well. Also, with Exe as a PR for town and knowing about the neighbors we could have said that both Neighbors were concepts and exe was a person due to him having an activity that can influence others. If we took Ythill out of the equation then we would have been left with a lot of vanilla townies and 3 persons who would have been the scum and one PR since the town would be unlikely to have many more PRs than a tracker and a couple of neighbors given they are both town.

My theory is kinda shot given Ythill's claim (unless he faked the flavor), it's weak given MS and Kast are concepts and PRs at the same time and it's a lot of mod wifom (not to mention the fact that there's a good chance some liked) but that's what I thought Ythill was suspecting as well.

I am still pretty convinced that mafia will not be a concept but that is just speculation and it should probably not weigh anything in any decisions made from hereon.

I am ready to lynch ooba today.

Vote Ooba
Anyway, since I've been asked multiple times why I reacted so differently and what my reasoning behind my reactions were I thought I should explain.

[Stef]

EBWOP

Anyway, since I've been asked multiple times why I reacted so differently and what my reasoning behind my reactions were I thought I should explain.

I am ready to lynch ooba today.

Vote Ooba

[ooba]

Will catch up (reply) tonight ..

[Stef]

Hmm.. looking over my post again and rereading Ythill saying that he will probably want to NK socrates I realized I forgot about socrates when making my list. I read both socrates, DS, Jack and Ythill in ISO but I could not find a claim. All I found was Ythill saying he thinks DS's claim is probably the most sincere (and he thanks jack) here and I saw jack quoting DS with something relating Physics here

Ythill, could you please elaborate? What exactly was DS's claim and how did jack help? I'm not understanding.

[Kairyuu]

The Higgs boson is a hypothetical massive scalar elementary particle predicted to exist by the Standard Model in particle physics. At present there are no known elementary scalar (spin-0) particles in nature, although many composite spin-0 particles are known. The existence of the particle is postulated as a means of resolving inconsistencies in current theoretical physics, and attempts are being made to confirm the existence of the particle by experimentation, using the Large Hadron Collider (LHC).

Niels Henrik David Bohr - 1922 Nobel Prize in Physics

"for his services in the investigation of the structure of atoms and of the radiation emanating from them"

Votecount 4 of Day 2

1. Herodotus (2): ooba, Kast
4. ooba (2): Ythill, Midnight's Sorrow, Stef
6. nopointinactingup (0):
7. Midnight's Sorrow (0):
8. Stef (1): Herodotus
9. animorpherv1 (0):
10. Ythill (0):
11. Kast (0):
12. Socrates (1): nopointinactingup

Not voting (3): animorpherv1, Socrates

With 9 alive it's 5 to lynch.

Deadline for Day 2 will be Friday, August 13, at 10pm EST

[Socrates]

Since it looks like Ythill might be turning his sights on me tonight, I would like to take a moment to say that, as a physics major, his claim strikes me as utter nonsense, though I would have to dig out my physics books and review them to give an in depth explanation as to why. Suffice to say, Entropy "destroying other concepts" makes as much sense as saying "the color red makes bananas explode". If he is telling the truth, I suspect his role doesn't actually work the way he thinks it does. At least I hope it doesn't, as that would be a stretch to end all stretches. I mean, come on, just make a normal vig and call it "Combustion" or something.

[Ythill]

Ythill, could you please elaborate? What exactly was DS's claim and how did jack help?

Socrates is made of matter. While answering my question about physics knowledge, DS said that he didn't know anything about the show. When I started looking for less-than-massclaim flavor info, Jack helped by pointing out what DS had said and getting him to confirm that he was from a show. I don't see how that would apply to a physics concept, and it would have been surprisingly early and elaborate as a lie.

Since it looks like Ythill might be turning his sights on me tonight...

Slight preference. My decision will be mainly based on who I think is most likely to be scum after the lynch flip.

...as a physics major...

AtA much? Also, you're making flavor argument, which is funny.

[Socrates]

AtA much? Also, you're making flavor argument, which is funny.

lol? Coming from the guy who wanted a flavor claim?

1) I wasn't calling you scum.
2) when you are trying to argue for a mass flavorclaim based on the idea that game mechanics will be tied to flavor, you don't get to make that argument.
3) You are misusing Appeal to Authority.

That's the first adversarial response you have given me today. Interesting. ARE you an SK, Ythill? I would be fairly surprised if you were, but I guess it wouldn't be too out there.

My role isn't actually from a show. DS was just confused.

[Herodotus]

- A hammering before a claim is a bad play irrespective of faction - the fact that he hammered and then called out for him=town if Kdub flipped scum makes him scum who played bad. I would not bring in competency into this argument.

Why would a scum feel that this was a good idea (even if it isn't)?

If Ythill is SK, then probably 1+ town PRs; otherwise Ythill vig with 0+ town PRs (depending on scum PR distribution).

This feels like subtle rolefishing. It may be more confirmation bias on my part, but it looks like you're about to ask the town PR's to start claiming "in order to decide whether Ythill is a vig or SK."

[Herodotus]

I'd rather have a Socrates wagon because after reading Socrates I see that he's not doing much of anything except defending himself.

It looks to me like he's doing the opposite of defending himself. Right before your post, he argued that he might have been bussing.

Kdub(dead) - Person (scum PR)

The Higgs Boson, Kdub's role, is a type of particle (as you can see in Kairyuu 759). I don't know whether that makes it 'matter' or 'ideas' as far as Ythill is concerned, but it's not a person ...

I am still pretty convinced that mafia will not be a concept but that is just speculation and it should probably not weigh anything in any decisions made from hereon.

... so if anything, the mafia could be exclusively concepts. But yeah, it's speculation, and I wouldn't base my reads of other players on whether they are a concept or person at all, unless we get information proving that idea.

[Ythill]

@Socrates: You citing your major isn't appealing to your own authority? You can nitpick all you want, it doesn't change the fact that I sought flavor claims because I have two different kill methods. If the matter/ideas theory is incorrect, well... I guess we'll see. I didn't base my conclusion on physics, I based it on what I know of the game. Loosely defined (as disorganization) entropy seems like a fine way to kill concepts and you saying it isn't is just as silly as arguing that people should be told of doc protects because IRL they woud know that they've been shot (hence the link).

My role isn't actually from a show. DS was just confused.

I figured that and I was under the impression that anything he'd confuse for something that could be on a show would be best destroyed by enthalpy. I actualy have a decent guess as to what your flavor is, and I'm thinking you're going to be in the box tonight.

@ Stef & Hero: My assumption is that the mafia have at least one concept and at least one person/object.

[Stef]

@Ythill: You're probably right.

@Hero: Didn't know that. As I said I know nothing of physics. Looked it up though and you're right.

@Ooba: You're stalling horribly. Lurking won't get you out of this one.

[nopointinactingup]

I'd rather have a Socrates wagon because after reading Socrates I see that he's not doing much of anything except defending himself.

It looks to me like he's doing the opposite of defending himself. Right before your post, he argued that he might have been bussing.

Well. Most of what he's been doing are trying to defend himself, even now. I don't see him with opinion about anyone. Why not Socrates everyone? At least Ooba has some analysis and contributions, this guy is just blatantly doing nothing.

[ooba]

@Ooba: You're stalling horribly. Lurking won't get you out of this one.

I know it wont. I've just been caught with another game a lot .. I don't want to sort of skim through and give half-attempts at a reply here ..

[Ythill]

@Ythill: You're probably right.

About what?

@nopoint: If I thought we should lynch based on lazy play, I'd be voting for MS. Ooba is most likley to be scum. Socrates is in second place and I'll gladly participate in his lynch if he's the preference of the majority but, for now, my vote is parked on my PE#1 and I'm keeping it there.

[Herodotus]

After reviewing Ooba and the last couple pages before the day 1 lynch, I think I could compromise at Ooba.
While Ythill was poking at Kdub, Ooba tried to push a lynch on Exe or Ani.
He didn't seem to express any suspicion of Kdub that I can find (though I only ISO-skimmed him looking for it,) and then he asked for a claim and said he was willing to put the L-1 vote on, but didn't actually place the L-1 vote. It seems plausible he might have been hoping that a fakeclaim would stop the momentum of the wagon.

[nopointinactingup]

@Hero: Why leave it hanging without a vote ?

[ooba]

On the Kdub lynch
- Clearly a compromise lynch for me since he wasn't in my top list of candidates for scum. I didn't see my lynch happening, so I move over to the one which is happening.

"showed interest in an early Kdub claim"
- early is a matter of playstyle difference. If I see a town moving ahead to a lynch, there have been instances where I ask for claim at L-3 even - because otherwise all you're doing is wasting even more time as deadline looms closer. What if one finds the claim believable\confirmable (Masons\Lovers) - then there's a mad 1 day rush to another lynch.

"had an oops in twilight"

@Ythill - of course. I know my last post makes me look like oobaScum with Kdub whose setting up a mislynch if Kdub flips scum but I am just calling it as I see it.

- Even if I realized this as scum in twilight I would have shut up. The correct move would have been to put up a link of Tit for Tat on D2 as a response. I am more free-wheeling as town, am not afraid to express my thoughts. Of course, I could be scum trying to play to my town meta here but given the success of my "careful-scum" games (Victorian vampire, Star Wars Mafia) , I see myself switching only when my scum meta becomes obvious enough that people start voting me for being careful.

"Coached by Kdub at the height of his panic."
- The post where Kdub responds to me

One thing that has been bothering me about this game is that lurking/inactivity has seemed to be an effective way to deflect pressure in general, and I'm not just talking about ani. nopoint had an early wagon on him, he went V/LA for a few days, and the wagon faded. People voted ani, he continued lurking and being unhelpful, and the wagon faded. People wagoned DS, he stopped posting, the wagon on him faded (even before he was replaced). That's not really a statement about whether those players are scum or not, but I've never been in a game where there was this type of dynamic on D1. I don't know whether scum are manipulating this (maybe to get information/find easy mislynches for later on?) or whether the makeup of this group of players just happens to be conducive to this behavior.

- Which part is coaching? (I found it to be an inconclusive post saying nothing which is why I ask him if he'll vote ani again)
- What panic are you talking about? You're clearly inventing stuff here ...

"Cleared only by meta that he brought, which was called "faulty.""
- It was my modded game with Kdub as scum
- Kdub's meta still accurate - still doesn't vote his partners, only questions them
- Plus how does this even add up to anything? I didn't bring up the meta and say "Hey I'm cleared" - you're the one who analyzed it and came up with the reasoning that I'm a prob. townie. Its almost as if you want to attribute your two differing reads (one from Kdub scum analysis where I'm town, one from ISO where I'm sure scum) to the meta I brought up.

"Sullied himself by what looked like a DS-->Exe chainsaw"
Really??
I had a strong ani\exe read and was willing to lynch either. Jack\Stef voted him and I saw exe had more chances of being lynched than ani so jumped onto that BW,

"Strong link to Socrates."

The only players who I had trouble slotting are L (NPACT) & DS. Vibe tells me DS is prob town. L might be scum. But both are more neutral category reads.

- Apart from a neutral slotting (which some people find to be scummy), I could not find any other links.

---

Need to re-read reactions to see what catches my eye ..

[Ythill]

Clearly a compromise lynch for me since he wasn't in my top list of candidates for scum. I didn't see my lynch happening, so I move over to the one which is happening.

He wasn't explicitly suspected by you at all. And you didn't move, you just said you would.

Which part is coaching?

The whole thing. He's telling you that an ani lynch isn't going to save him. Why did you quote the first instance but not the second?

What panic are you talking about?

Maybe panic was too bombastic, but I'm talking about your hard push against ani. I asked you about it at the time and your reasons were too weak for the level of effort you were putting into it. Meanwhile, scum would have two stronger reasons to push for an ani lynch: (1) Kdub was under fire, (2) a lot of the DS wagoners had recently called ani out for lurking and whatnot.

I was looking back at the post where you explained your case on ani and I found this gem...

And as someone who suspects Exe, how can you be blind to what just went on between he and Kdub?

On exe, it had to do with the claim really. His argument that he was a PR sort of made me do a double take - Not because he claimed PR but the fact that he didn't want to claim fully and was cautious. A scum with a good PR fakeclaim would be itching to claim.

I'm noting here that the question was unambiguously in reference to the suspicious interaction between your suspect Exe and your buddy Kdub, and yet your answer only refers to Exe. Yet another thing I wish I'd found before I submitted my kill last night.

Plus how does this even add up to anything? I didn't bring up the meta and say "Hey I'm cleared"

That's not waht I'm suggesting. As the mod, you probably noticed that Kdub talked about his buddies extremely often. It would have been very easy for you to tell him to ignore you and then post a link to that meta after he died. By itself, this theory seemed paranoid. Along with everything else...

Really??
I had a strong ani\exe read and was willing to lynch either. Jack\Stef voted him and I saw exe had more chances of being lynched than ani so jumped onto that BW,

You'd called him a suspect but didn't attack him until he posted the L-1 vote on DS, at that point, nobody else was voting him. It's true that you didn't move your vote until there was support, but I don't think that fact is in your favor.

[Midnight's Sorrow]

@Hero: Why leave it hanging without a vote ?

Because that would put Ooba at L-1, and scum-hero wouldn't want that.