Toriel's Patience (end)

[Mandate]

I am just a VT.

I would post mroe but I have nothing to respond to since no one else has really been talking.

[Mandate]

I wonder a great many things in life.

Am pretty confident that Dannflor is also a Vt with me though, I don't think he would lie to me on the internet.

Who else is town? Let's wrap this game up before the weekend so I can get back to writing Undertale fanfiction.

[Mandate]

I already have one suspect in my sights.

User ""Brown Eyes"" clearly lacks brown eyes (they lied to me) and has claimed Miller which while I think it's possible could also be a defensive mechanism to preemptively avert cop checks on the player and in doing so prevent a guilty on them from being damning to their team. Does anyone have any mod meta on the likelihood of Isis including millers in their games?

[Mandate]

On the other hand the user did post within an hour of the game starting which would indicate a level of enthusiasm that is not congruent with my perception of their enjoyment of scum role PMs, but I think this is a minor detail relative to the importance of this clear pattern of dishonesty that I am already noticing.

[Mandate]

I know that I am impressive but I am observing that you have completely dodged any of the valid arguments that I have presented in favor of starting a wagon on a lurker. While I do agree that forcing players to be present is important and that we should punish this user for having literally zero posts to date, your failure to interact with my well thought out and elucidated scum case doesn't go unnoticed.

[Mandate]

Funny enough I would have voted Dunnstral if they were voteable so I'm curious why you have them as above rand town Taly.

[Mandate]

Dannflor stole my line, I am not especially interested in copy pasting what he said.

[Mandate]

Also there's the bit about it being a very gentle/soft nudge in the direction of us going mercy route when town in Dunnstral position should want to push town very hard to go mercy route not be cagey about saying 'well genocide run is basically mountainous'.

It's not that it's a confident scumread but I have a few people I think are more likely town than not and Dunnstral is the only person who really pinged me thus far.

[Mandate]

Keyleth is not a new player.

[Mandate]

Well regardless of whether Dunnstral is town or scum they want us to go spare route mechanically because spare route rewards us if Toriel is town and punishes us if she is mafia.

So for me it's not that his first post was to say go spare it's the fact that it was sort of timid and indirect.

Dunnstral is important to discuss because the most important decision of the game is genocide vs pacifist route and we make that decision primarily based on our read on Toriel.

[Mandate]

I am also amused by how Taly is giving out town reads any time I'm squinting at someone's posting.

That said I am slightly more inclined to vote Taly at this point but we will see

[Mandate]

After a great deal of thought

VOTE: Taly

[Mandate]

Meow.

[Mandate]

I will say that if I was sure you were scum I wouldn't have voted you. I just don't really have interest in a wagon on Keyleth right now.

[Mandate]

That's a good question but I am electing not to answer it.

[Mandate]

Who are we voting then, Keyleth?

[Mandate]

Okay so you think that the pool of active players is town heavy basically

[Mandate]

I think Brown Eyes and Dannflor are both town.

I'm mulling over the possibility of you and Keyleth being scum partners because there's some kinda strange associatives between the two of you but I think that Keyleth is not going to fold under pressure so I'm not really interested in voting there.

[Mandate]

I'm not sure yet but I think they are balance of probabilities town and by townblocking fast scum who arrive to the game late are already under tons of pressure and there's telltale signs.

[Mandate]

Thonk

[Mandate]

Way too much pressure yo it would be like 101 kpa

[Mandate]

It comes across as a very forced towntell, Keyleth.

[Mandate]

[Mandate]

So here's my question Taly

Why do you care about Dannflor's read on me?

[Mandate]

I'm really struggling with finding a town pov where you ask that question

[Mandate]

I don't really understand what you mean by parallel or why their read on me would even be relevant to you, you've heavily implied you townread me and it seemed like you townread Dann as well but it looks like you're chipping away looking for weaknesses.

[Mandate]

Do you think it's a normal question when you have two townreads who are generally doing the same thing to ask them what their reads on each other are? Do you think I shouldn't be a little skeptical of that line of questioning, Taly?

[Mandate]

Am also very curious what Keyleth thinks about me

[Mandate]

I think there is an extreme low chance that I want to Lim anyone outside of Taly / Keyleth today, there's too much going on that says they're partners

[Mandate]

I suppose I should decide which I think is more independently scummy though or something

[Mandate]

VOTE: Keyleth

For now

[Mandate]

I think Dunnstral and Merlyn are both significantly more likely to be town than rand as well.

[Mandate]

I believe that if you were scum you would choose to engage with different aspects of the game than you chose to.

I think that you chose to engage with the easiest aspects of the game to low effort engage with which I actually think is town indicative right now.

[Mandate]

I think that mandate is likely not scum

[Mandate]

Two lims, then we decide to go genocide or pacifist route, first kill/spare is always toriel then we start having nights.

[Mandate]

I don't know Brown Eyes. What do you think?

[Mandate]

I'm getting popular

I think

Dunn

is above rand town

Is this a joke because there are only three wolves? I think I get it!

Being popular must be nice totally not at all jealous.

Are you new

Keyleth?

Are you new

Keyleth?

Do you always bold usernames? It brings attention to the eyes but is also slightly intimidating.

I'm not new to mafia, no! Why do I give off that impression? I've played video mafia and forum mafia before although I saw undertale theme and was like 'omg I have to join this.'

but also i do not know how useful discussing dunnstral's alignment is since he's getting flipped no matter what

He's the most important to discuss,

because

he's getting flipped no matter what.

Really? I thought the exact opposite!

Mind melding

VOTE: taly

I want to know more about this tbh, I thought what I said was pretty mild

saying you town lean toriel just seems like the safest possible thing you could say that can also be classified as game talk

and that is regardless of dunnstral's alignment

do you have thoughts on anyone else so far

Keyleth and Mandate passed the vibe check

Also whats safe here? I don't get how what I said is protective on a game that just began. Much less effective to try and pocket Dunn, hypothetically.

I mean I've sat here looking at this on and off for the last couple hours and I really do think this is just two scum, the way the two of them force an engagement with each other over everything else in thread at this point, the difference in tone from the surrounding commentary on actually game related materials, and the follow up behaviour. It's also worth pointing out that Keyleth in this game uses emojis exactly twice and they are both in these responses to Taly which helps to make that exchange stand out even more from everything else that the two of them have done this game.

[Mandate]

It definitely helps that this is the kind of setup where I fully expect scum to be going full on buddying each other trying to make a pseudo townbloc and that perception of how scum would play the game meshes with both their forced interactions into mutual townread into Taly's fascination with what exactly the read dynamics are between me/Dannflor/Brown Eyes when I don't really think any of that is what he should be thinking about as a town player.

[Mandate]

I can assure you that you are not going to correctly alt guess me, so I'd recommend finding some other more productive way to read my slot if that's what you're interested in.

[Mandate]

After that post from Mandate I feel even more content to vote the mercy route!

This makes no sense to say. I'm not saying I think you're scum for saying it, I haven't decided on you yet. I'm saying it literally makes no sense when it was just spelled out that we go mercy if we think Toriel is town, we don't if we think Toriel is scum. Mandate's thoughts on your shouldn't affect this at all.

I have no reason to not think Dunnstral is town right now, and with the points I gave Mandate it makes me feel even better. All you need is two more to win the game, right? It's easier to find townies then it is to find wolves. At least, to me it is!

Keyleth's probably town for this post.

Why?

you kind of sound like shiny brass object

I have so, so many questions for you now.

[Mandate]

My response is that you and Keyleth are still playing this exactly like I'd expect cospies to play this and nothing you do gives me a reason to reevaluate that. I should really check and see if you do this emotional blackmail play as scum because I have some hesitation on that but I'm not really in the mood to reread old games right now.

It you want me to reevaluate your slot the best way to go about doing that is finding scum, but you instead decided to vote me who all of your tone and posting suggests that you don't scumread, so...

[Mandate]

Why?

Looks like a decent strategy to win.

Why would scum not suggest building a townblock in this setup...?

[Mandate]

I am not elastigirl.

[Mandate]

I feel like you are implying that I am ruining the game for you which may be true from your point of view but I'm really unsure how I'm supposed to respond to that given that I'm not actively pushing a wagon on either you or your proposed cospy ATM and don't intend to for at least like a week within which time if you're town I may yet reevaluate?

[Mandate]

Okay but how proficient at scum do you need to be to point that out, Sakura? It feels kinda easy to say in terms of getting towncred, no?

Ok no worries Taly it's six hours into day 1 and I am in no mega hurry to do anything. I'll advise again that you focus on sorting other people because I don't think you're going to find it easy to get anything useful to read from me when I find it hard to see past my scumread.

[Mandate]

Can I be in the scum block? No one is townreading me yet.

[Mandate]

I think given a deep meta dive Taly should be conclusively solveable based on what has happened thus far, I'm just entirely uninterested in doing the work.

[Mandate]

Because limming scum on d1 and d2 is the primary goal right now and we can think about what comes later later?

[Mandate]

Sakura Hana you aren't making a lick of sense.

I'm not calling you scum right now but...

[Mandate]

I dunno but we can try!

[Mandate]

Ok I buy gg

[Mandate]

I think this is a good time to ask ourselves if Dannflor is a deepwolf

[Mandate]

Isis got some explaining to do

[Mandate]

VOTE: Aristeia

Am gonna change my vote just for fun.

Or maybe not for fun.

[Mandate]

So do all who live to see such times as being voted by shiny brass object.

But that is not for you to decide. All you have to decide is what to do with the vote that is given to you.

[Mandate]

I think Keyleth is probably town so that makes my read on Taly pretty indeterminate

I'm very happy with my new vote

[Mandate]

I think that

Dannflor shinybrassobject Sakura Hana Brown Eyes Keyleth contains a lot of town players probably

[Mandate]

I'll rethink Keyleth at some point since I did feel pretty strongly at one point they were scum but I've lost a lot of enthusiasm for the S-S pairing and barring that I don't really have a lot of reason to believe that they are scum

[Mandate]

its strange that you are saying mandate is "griefing" you because doesnt that assume mandate is town?

like if mandate is mafia and you're town then this wouldn't be a grief it would just be hyper aggression lining up lims and seizing thread control - your lack of any suspicion of this push is kind of ?? to me.

this is the definition of griefing I'm using.

like I don't see how it's griefing if he's mafia because that's just him playing to win condition

OH I SEE WHAT YOU MEAN

yeah, and i do think

mandate

might be in bad faith but i have counter thoughts

what do you think of the keyleth push

i dont get it tbh, can you explain your vote?

I found keyleth's reaction to being pushed by mandate to be overly accommodative and I think she'd push back more or engage more if she were town.

I want to add pressure to see if something cool will happen.

I think there are some instances in her posting which feel performative in a forced way.

you seem to know about this slot, what behavior here differs from your knowledge?

i dont know anything about the slot or the player history.

I just assume people when they get pushed in an overtly overbearing way and they're town find it annoying and will push back rather than shrink away.

I have an extreme dislike for this set of posts.

It feels like a lot like they are scum who wants Taly/Keyleth to scumread me and Dannflor back and establish a full conflict, like it's sort of putting words in their mouth that they should scumread me when Keyleth explicitly wasn't scumreading me and Taly gave little evidence of doing so, why exactly should someone believe that a push on them can only be in bad faith?

[Mandate]

She is scum, sorry.

[Mandate]

Well Aristeia who do you think is scum if I'm town?

[Mandate]

Are you also in the school of maybe Dunn and Meuh are semi active scum but all the scum are in the lurkers or do you think Keyleth is still scum?

[Mandate]

That was quite some time ago but okay.

[Mandate]

I am curious on your reads on Shirou/Meuh/Dunnstral which, with yourself added, is the pool of people I am presently thinking about.

[Mandate]

That's up to you, really.

[Mandate]

It would please you then to know that I am no longer pushing them as two scum, possibly no scum at all.

That said I do still stand by what I said, scum are going to try a looot harder on interactions in this game simply because spare is likely and in spare town are guaranteed to have flips before endgame.

[Mandate]

I think pushing Aristeia is gonna be unproductive because she is already very defensive and its gonna be hard to make that go anywhere.

I kind of want to vote Meuh but I think that it's just, like, a bleh meh read for me, but of course scum often are found in that bleh meh space. So I'll just slow down for now.

edited, pronouns only

[Mandate]

She is already very defensive. Sorry.

[Mandate]

You have to get scum spared first in order to then have those later issues and I think that scum would prefer to have themselves as townread candidates in the popular consensus from early on.

Obviously bringing this up might change the way this is approached but.

[Mandate]

Or here's another way of looking at it, especially if Dunnstral is town.

If the top four townreads of the game collectively are town, even if the first two lims hit town then scum can't compete to be spared until the absolute final spare where scum must secure two consecutive lims on scum without then being punished for having pushed the first one onto scum. That's a really unpleasant situation to be in. Alternatively, you try to secure at least one scum members as a general townread and when it goes down it incriminates a large block of people and town are more likely to be like "well any individual pusher of this could be town since a lot of town did townread this person, clearly" and there can even be some townies who hard push it to the extent that they invalidate themselves.

Scum not being present in the pool of people who are general table townreads makes this game extremely difficult to play for them and is likely to just snowball into a loss.

[Mandate]

I don't want to fully explain what I'm thinking here because it would prevent scum from making a mistake that I think they are very likely to make but I really don't think scum are going to just see a townblock of any size form and be okay with being outside it, unlike in a game that can be played normally where those players can be systematically killed while the lim can be diverted.

[Mandate]

I can't seem to write this post in a way that I don't think hurts my future ability to generate reads off of scum playing in certain ways so I don't really want to follow up outside of saying that I'm okay with trying to form a townblock but that's not necessarily what I'm advocating

[Mandate]

Keyleth I have been tasked with finding scum and I am delegating this duty to you, good luck.

[Mandate]

I actually sort of feel the opposite, I think it it gets into a big game of people fighting to be the most town it becomes a lot harder to solve, but I don't think it's as important whether we spare or kill as not sparing scum!Dunnstral and not killing town!Dunnstral.

[Mandate]

I think it's hard to find scum when that scum has no incentives that scum doesn't have. Scum who is a spare contender has the exact same play incentives as town. Sure, the one scum pushing for their buddies has different motives but even if most of the table agrees one person is scum you can't Lim/flip them and all their actions become wifom.

[Mandate]

I dunno. I think Taly is the one I'd prefer to flip in the pairing as of right now but I think its possible that neither is scum. It's possible they're still two scum and I'm throwing. Who really knows.

[Mandate]

No. And I'm not especially attached to that read.

[Mandate]

I haven't actually calculated the EV of either option and I want to do that before I answer that question. I think nearly always the play is spare unless I'm quite sure Dunnstral is scum but since spare + kill removes two of the most townread players per phase as opposed to Lim+NK lopping one from top and one from bottom it might actually not be as good an option as it seems at race value.

[Mandate]

Since, like, if Dunn is scum and we spare we essentially need the top 8 most townread players in the game to all be town which is a very tall order. Even if we spare Dunn!town we need 6 town or 8 town with 1 scum in the middle which is a little unwieldy to ask for. I'm not sure, I want to see what the math says and maybe revisit the math based on me assuming that I am correct on how many of the top x players I think I can be sure are town on d3.

[Mandate]

This is of course assuming I am making the decision in a vacuum, I'm sure other people will have thoughts and I think it's quite likely that we end up sparing no matter what just because that's what people want from an Undertale game and we go from there.

[Mandate]

Yeah like by the fourth spare you're out the top 5 most town people + Dunnstral and it means scummy slots are choosing between other scummy slots in a scum heavy pool which might be less good than it appears, am gonna check at some point

[Mandate]

I do think Keyleth is town ftr and that's feeling stronger

[Mandate]

Who are you sparing first Ali?

[Mandate]

Am curious about your vote brown eyes.

Care to elaborate?

[Mandate]

Am curious about your vote brown eyes.

Care to elaborate?

Fairly bad entrance, I think. She indicated in 208 that she had read the thread, yet her first posts were fairly unsubstantial in a way that feels like she was trying to look productive. I also think that given the opinion she gives in 211 that she expects townies who are pushed in an overbearing way to find it annoying and push back, her questions to Taly seem somewhat strange and informed:

its strange that you are saying mandate is "griefing" you because doesnt that assume mandate is town?

like if mandate is mafia and you're town then this wouldn't be a grief it would just be hyper aggression lining up lims and seizing thread control - your lack of any suspicion of this push is kind of ?? to me.

If I were in this situation, I would just

ask

Taly what her read on you is. It's hard to phrase this, but it feels more like she's just pointing something out rather than actually trying to interrogate anything.

I agree with what you're saying.

Not to defend the person that I am currently voting but do you think that her alt guess on me might be relevant to this? Not really sure how else to phrase this.

[Mandate]

I will be contrarian and call Beeboy scum.

Whatchu gonna do about it?

[Mandate]

[Mandate]

I will return to being fairly confident that Brown Eyes is town.

[Mandate]

I will reconsider both Taly and Keyleth in a couple of days but for now I like Brown Eyes, Dannflor, Sakura Hana, Taly, and Keyleth, and have proto positive feelings about Beeboy as well.

[Mandate]

Actually I think I jumped the gun on Sakura

I think she is slightly more likely town than scum but nowhere near as towny as any of the people in my list

Also Meuh sounds kinda town now too jeez

Ok that's enough for today goodnight everyone

[Mandate]

I wanna call Meuh town too now.

[Mandate]

I don't know about Toriel I feel like I oscillate thinking that Dunn is hard scum and hard town and I'm starting to feel like the player just doesn't click with me and I should rely on other players' reads there.

Looking forward to seeing some content from Alisae and Implosion especially!

[Mandate]

Would be inclined to call it more likely town than scum

[Mandate]

I have a lot of people who look town, I am comfortable thinking there are a lot of lurker scum

[Mandate]

Idk but it should be punishable

[Mandate]

I am not really calling anyone a lurker as a pejorative I just think that the active players are mostly town so I'm looking elsewhere

[Mandate]

Why would you wanna be in Alisaes townblock

[Mandate]

I have an above average innate suspicion of people going out of their way to pocket people that they are close to / think they they can sheep in a setup like this. All Alisae is doing is that kind of stuff and horrible, personal attacks on the character of the kind and gentle woman who gave birth to me and nurtured me through my turbulent childhood years so I have at least one finger of suspicion pointed that way, perhaps several.

[Mandate]

I don’t really think Meuh has done anything special in all honesty.

What conclusion should I draw from this

Do you think Meuh is scum? Do you think they're just meh town but you don't think she deserves all the town credits upon which she has been bestowed? I'm not saying this can't be a genuine thought from you but a post like this really needs a follow up now what? kind of deal.

[Mandate]

Not gonna lie I think there's a world where Keyleth is town but wrong on Taly but I'm gonna forget about that for now because there's more interesting stuff to pursue ATM.

[Mandate]

You don't need to, don't worry

I'm a confusing player to follow along with at the best of times and I expect to be even more confusing than usual this game.

[Mandate]

I feel very strongly town on Implosion

I'll hold my thoughts on Beeboy for now

[Mandate]

You do know that I am not

Shinybrassobject

and the only person who thinks that I am never played with them, right?

[Mandate]

Oh you meant the game he modded.

[Mandate]

Where are my cookies

[Mandate]

Taly I'm intrigued how very different our townpool is

[Mandate]

I am not sure how appropriate your usage of the word ironic is in this context but I'll allow it.

Do you understand why I townread Brown Eyes

Is there a reason you don't consider Dannflor or Keyleth to be worthy of a townread?

Am not trying to browbeat you into changing your townpool, just trying to understand.

[Mandate]

It's also worth pointing out I do think Sakura is probably town she just isn't there yet? But yeah. Am interested in your thoughts on those 3.

Ok sure fair enough you don't scumread any of them

[Mandate]

If I say BE Taly Keyleth Dann is all town
And I also like Meuh Implo Sakura
And add a very gentle townlean on Merlyn

There should be lots of scum in Beeboy Ali Shirou Dunn Aristeia

[Mandate]

I actually really really like implo and want to add him to the all town pool but I'll be careful for now.

[Mandate]

Am just gonna do it no one can stop me I'm a rebel

[Mandate]

I feel absolutely nothing reading Shirou's posts. Am unsure if I should. I certainly feel no inclination to townbin them but I also feel no inclination to wagon them.

[Mandate]

Dunn, can you sell me on your beeboy vote?

[Mandate]

I bet if Zihark was in this game instead we'd be getting concrete stances and probably already have a scum Lim by now.

[Mandate]

Yes if you think someone is scum you should treat them like the degenerate garbage subhuman filth that would have the disgusting moral failing of receiving a sc*m role pm in an undertale game.

[Mandate]

I'm feeling a little more comfortable townreading Sakura

I would be very happy if she is just town, I think the game is pretty much over if she is and I can get confident in it
Would also be helpful if Meuh was more resolutely townbinnable

[Mandate]

Oddly enough people are saying stuff like Sakura Hana is the easiest player in the game to read but I think our #1 loss condition is Sakura+Dunn being 2 scum here and I'm actually very stressed about it

[Mandate]

I think she's town I just think she might be scum? Idk how else to say it I just don't feel confident lol

[Mandate]

Hrm okay so

I think you're town but I'm not like 100% sure you're town but I think I'm just going to resign myself to you being town because you sound town and then you'll be locktown and no one will ever reevaluate and that will be bad if you're scum and that's fine unless you're exactly scum with Dunnstral

[Mandate]

It's not that she's the biggest threat if scum it's that I think the only plausible way we actually lose the game is if exactly Sakura and Dunnstral are two scum

[Mandate]

I know I'm probably going to just go spare on D3 at this point and I know that if I go spare on D3 I'm probably going to push for Sakura being spared and I don't know how to feel better about that right now

I don't think anyone needs to worry about me, I'm just being a little neurotic

[Mandate]

How is alisae and by extension Beeboy a thing, I'm not sure what the connection is here

I have scumreads btw I'm just being kinda cagey

[Mandate]

Okay, it seems like the thread is stagnating.

Shall I place a vote on someone I have a very good feeling is scum?

[Mandate]

I personally am quite happy/comfortable with the current stage of retreading our townreads and discussing those but if people are feeling listless or stuck I wouldn't mind trying to move the thread forward

[Mandate]

[Mandate]

Fascinating, Keyleth

I was very strongly considering voting Beeboy

[Mandate]

It's unfortunate that I feel this way considering I feel like Aristeia considers her prime directive in this game attacking people's townreads on me and I'm 99% sure if she becomes a consensus townread she will fight viciously to avoid having me as a spare contender but I am not really thinking she is all that likely to flip scum and that makes me feel even worse about the rest of the limited scumpool

Nah Keyleth it's more a thing that I consider possible as opposed to a thing that I think is likely

I think that it is likely that me you Dann browneyes sakura implosion taly are all town I just have a little hesitation on Sakura and Taly (and I suppose I'd be remiss to not add brown eyes for now but I am not at all worried about lazily townbinning her and then reevaluating at such time as I have a reason to)

[Mandate]

I really don't think Taly and Dunn are two scum though which gives me zero reason to think about Taly for now

[Mandate]

can't spell beep boop without bee

Taly is a townread

[Mandate]

There's not even that much hesitation there's just a lot of people that I'm already never changing my read on to the point that the people who are just below that are causing me a lot of angst

[Mandate]

I think 578 is hard to fake / unlikely to be made as a fake

[Mandate]

There's not even that much hesitation there's just a lot of people that I'm already never changing my read on to the point that the people who are just below that are causing me a lot of angst

what, never? Which ones?

I'm very very sold on Dann Implo Keyleth Brown Eyes towns

I'm also very sold on Taly Sakura

I like Meuh less than the above and then you a large amount less than Meuh (but I still like you!)

I said what I said about Aristeia because I thought it was necessary but I didn't really wanna share how I feel about everyone in the scumpool until everyone in it does more

[Mandate]

I'm not especially worried about him getting limmed.

I'm not going to micromanage every player in the games' votes, I posted my crying emoji and am continuing to think about my townreads and wait for Alisae to do something.

[Mandate]

Keyleth I don't scumread Sakura I have her as like 90% town I'm just really angsty about losing to the last 10%

I simply don't think Dannflor can present as cohesive a narrative as scum as he did this game, i found it very easy to track exactly what Dannflor was thinking that never entered his posting and then his future posting followed the unspoken trajectory more than the spoken trajectory. Scum try to (usually succeed too) keep narrative cohesiveness from post to post but they usually struggle to have a coherent ""out of thread pov"" that underlines the posts that they actually make. I don't think Dannflor does this successfully as scum.

[Mandate]

I mean.

Never say never.

But I don't think I'm wrong.

[Mandate]

I don't really feel that shitposting and joking around is any less readable than cases and pushes as a player but if you're interested in something specific you can track the trajectory of his read on me as the game developed. There's a real town thought process there that isn't actually put in words in the thread until very late but it's still there and for scum that kind of thing is usually not there.

[Mandate]

I don't really wanna vote anyone I want forum user Alisae to post things about the game (as well as other people but Alisae especially)

Is it theoretically possible? Dunno, maybe. But if Dannflor is scum I am not at all worried that I won't find him as scum later

[Mandate]

I mean that's exactly the point I made which went over your heads.

He doesn't state a read. But if you read through you can figure out exactly what it is at all times and it isn't a lazy townread.

Why are you going through his posts looking for him to state a read when I said explicitly it's an out of game narrative . Read his posts and try to figure out his read on me

[Mandate]

I'm not being condescending, you're just asking for something that doesn't really make sense. If you don't see it then you don't see it and I can outline exactly what I think is going on out of the thread in Danns head as the game progresses spending a large chunk of time on it and then you're just going to have to take my word for it, just like you already have to take my word for it. What's gonna change? I don't think I can help you understand my read on Dannflor and I think you are better off asking Implosion or someone else why they like him.

[Mandate]

Exciting!

[Mandate]

I'm not being condescending, you're just asking for something that doesn't really make sense. If you don't see it then you don't see it and I can outline exactly what I think is going on out of the thread in Danns head as the game progresses spending a large chunk of time on it and then you're just going to have to take my word for it, just like you already have to take my word for it. What's gonna change? I don't think I can help you understand my read on Dannflor and I think you are better off asking Implosion or someone else why they like him.

I'm asking you for your thought process on your dannflor strong townread. Your response was that he had a trajectory that is unlikely to be faked. I asked you what trajectory that was. You said it was the way he thought about your slot. I asked you to show me which posts of his gave you that impression and how you came up with this. Your response was that its over my head and that I can't see it.

Whether I can see it is not the point. the point is that you claim to have seen it, hence I'm asking you to explain what you saw.

Okay sure

I'm going to be very careful about how I phrase this so don't expect it to be fast

[Mandate]

Merlyn this is your chance to be a big player:
Explain why your read on me has changed to the extent that you are now voting me.

Am gonna get to my Dannflor towncase but I want to follow up on this promptly

[Mandate]

So you've been scumreading me this whole game and the fact that I think my read on Dannflor is something complicated and hard to explain is what prompts you to act on that?

[Mandate]

If I'm being honest I think that there is a very high probability that you're scum who is just cracking under the pressure of me claiming a correct townblock of seven but I want to give you every opportunity to not be mislimmed if you're town here so I'm gonna keep the kid gloves on for a bit

What do you think is inherently wolfy/scummy about not wanting to explain a read? Do you think that, as scum, someone who plays as confidently as me is incapable of giving a reason to townread someone?

[Mandate]

I don't think a single player in this game believes that Dannflor is getting limmed D1.

[Mandate]

I don't know how to engage with you or in the thread around you when you openly treat me with contempt and dislike, Aristeia.

[Mandate]

Keyleth I have a question

You were one of the original people who pushed me/you/taly/dannflor as all town so I'm curious on your thoughts on the people pushing the idea that the townblock is scum heavy

[Mandate]

I think I'm just gonna stop this thing I'm doing and start playing more openly again

My goal with this game was essentially to bait a specific reaction from scum. I wanted to build a townblock that was good enough to win to force scum to react to it but I also wanted to have a low enough obvious ability to generate thread presence and have for there to be potential weaknesses in that town block to put it forward and then wait for specific ways that I was expecting scum to try to dismantle it. I didn't really want to discourage a wagon on Dannflor because I wanted to see who would push it and why and what else would go on if I took off the gas. I remain fairly confident of the general strength of the townblock (thought it may have at most 1 scum, but probably doesn't). I actually am not sure if Merlyn is the scum-trying-to-destroy-townblock that I was looking for because I really just think she tilt voted me for not doing what she wanted (even if she's scum I think this is true) but I think that we did find one in Beeboy, who has not actually himself had much interest in pushing anyone scum but has been pretty continually attacking and shading townreads on people and implying that the townblock is scum heavy while not really being interested in instigating a conflict in any one person. The Meuh vote feels pretty done for the sake of doing things from where I'm standing but ymmv on that, I think 422 is pretty terrible, and there's a lot of tonal things that ping me regarding them.

I mean here's everything they say about Meuh:

Meuh had a strange opener, like the real one not the rvs vote, I’ll hold my breathe for now because I can sorta see myself over explaining like that as either alignment. But over explaining simple NAI things is more of a scum trait even if it’s not concrete. As I kept reading though I find it hard to care.

don’t really think Meuh has done anything special in all honesty.

I already made my post about it, I think there opening was wolfy and they have a few posts they got credit for that feel null or almost even wolfy to me.
#448 for example can easily be reactionary to the question and generally just make me feel Meuh looks worse instead of better.

It's... really not convincing, there's a lot of words that don't really say anything and even though this is supposedly the big scumread there's a lot of waffle wording, like "null or almost even wolfy" or saying something "can easily be" reactionary.

It's why i think the actives contain more scum then not?
In general if everyone is comfortable waiting to vote out a lurker you don't want to place a vote and thus shift the gamestate in a way that makes it more readable. A lack of readability generally favors the wolves since when playing at complete random I believe wolves tend to win statistically but I could be wrong.

basically stale discussion = discussion is controlled by people who don't care that it's stale = discussion controlled by not town.

This in particular just feels straight openwolf, I don't really buy that Beeboy feels that the game state is especially stale or unreadable on the second (third now?) day of a game and pretty much the only person who is openly waiting to vote a lurker is me but he stops short of saying it and even outside of that this comment is just so bad, like I am not buying for one moment a town says "a lack of readability generally favors the wolves".

Regarding Dannflor: the claim was made that scum!he just lazily townread me for having a strong presence. I don't think anyone has pushed us as SvS so I don't need to defend that accusation. What I have to say regarding that is that he -didn't- townread me. Explicitly. He townread someone else that I also townread but didn't give a townread to me. I had to prompt it and he still wouldn't give me an explicit townread, just a lean. In contrast to what other people say about him giving me an easy townread I think it's kind of obvious that he was never fully comfortable in that townread and I also think it's kind of obvious that it has to do with him alt guessing me as a strong scum player. And I felt all this as it was going on and it felt far outside the bounds of something that Dannflor as scum would think to fake. He was also just very, idk, in the flow on the first page of the game and didn't feel forced or offbeat at all and I'm very much struggling with anyone characterizing his play as wanton scum!Aggression because there's the interesting vote hop taly->Keyleth that I really liked plus the fact that he didn't really, like, push anyone that hard? I also struggle with the characterization of him as meme voting because I think he was continually providing game relevant content while he was here so the push on him just entirely doesn't grok with the ISO of his that I've read.

Anyway I'll VOTE: Beeboy now and spice up the game since although I really really would like to have waited at least a couple days for Alisae and others to do more things I think that my being hands off is just not gonna happen in this game.

[Mandate]

I also wanna apologize and say I have a very entrenched default to they/them, am doing my best to work on it, I am being more careful as I post things so please be patient with me!

[Mandate]

Not gonna lie I didn't realize I exactly copied Keyleth's phrasing oops.

[Mandate]

Well, yeah, if they said that why should I believe it? I believe it specifically because they never say it yet it is clearly true.

Regardless, Dunnstral, you were voting Beeboy and you said you switched because no one was interested. I'm interested.

[Mandate]

XD

[Mandate]

Am gonna make a big bag of popcorn for this conflict

[Mandate]

Ari am I gonna run into problems with you if I elect to do nothing about Dannflor and Sakura conflict or am I required to jump in like NO ALL THE VOTES IN THIS GAME BELONG TO ME AND ME ALONE AND WE ARE VOTING MY SCUMREAD. MINE MY OWN.

My precious...

[Mandate]

I just don't scumread

Sakura, Dunn

I once caught her as scum based on tone immediately and I don't get it here in the slightest

So you're saying if she was scum in this game she wouldn't get all the prayers in the game and

ascend to godhood

get spared, right?

[Mandate]

It's dangerous to vote alone, take this with you!

[Mandate]

Did someone say L-1?

[Mandate]

Merlyn you're starting to not feel so great in my estimation

[Mandate]

My initial impression was that scum Sakura would not vote the person she said she was townreading in that way but it's the kind of play that town makes sometimes because it seemed more like a pressure let's see what this does vote but eh

I don't wish to pretend in 100% sure Sakura is town but she still pings town and has no scum pings from me

[Mandate]

I claim VT

[Mandate]

Never has a townie ever called someone out in an accusatory way for voting them when they were according to the in thread progression of their reads their top townread.

[Mandate]

I am saying that according to a surface level reading of your posts you just turned around and voted your top townread because people started voting them, as a spectator to the conflict I see it differently but I don't think it should be altogether surprising to you that, after you vote someone who you were previous townreading, they have a very negative view of you and it twists the way they perceive your posts.

[Mandate]

We can also just wagon Alisae, they're almost certainly scum at this point just from PoE and gamestate.

[Mandate]

And if they're not its a very useful data point.

I haven't reconsidered on Beeboy at all, but I'm just not enthused about the day ending without Alisae being forced to do more and ideally more content from BE too.

[Mandate]

This game's just boring because I do feel very confident in my general townpool but I don't really feel good enough about who I want to eliminate yet.

[Mandate]

Beeboy by all rights you should be a scum but idk, I feel like I should scumread you more if you're actually scum and that's not a good feeling and I'm not sure if its that you're town or if I'm just overrating how sure I should be?

[Mandate]

I do feel, uh, pretty unreserved about Sakura town now so that's nice

[Mandate]

Beeboy do you have any recent offsite/alt games?

[Mandate]

Fuck it don't feel right

UNVOTE:

[Mandate]

Who is actually for suresies town

Keyleth RC Taly Sakura Dann Implo

BE should self resolve
Aristeia isn't town for sure but I don't think I'm limming her in the first 2 days ever
Dunn isn't relevant for now

Ali Merlyn Meuh Shirou Beeboy

revision

[Mandate]

I'm joking since several people alt guessed me as such.

[Mandate]

I'm going to take an at least 36ish hour break from the thread, would prefer if no one is limmed in that time.

[Mandate]

hahahahahhaha ok I decide to cancel my little break and then my post gets lost by the site going down, thanks Obama

[Mandate]

I'm gonna be honest Shirou I have no nostalgia for this and my wanting a bit to recuperate and come at you with full energy was the reason for my break but I think it is, indeed, time for us to dance.

[Mandate]

Why was my push on Beeboy just my eyes glazed over beeboy posts when I was still pushing it but when I got cold feet (ie decided that he felt kinda towny despite the absurdity of some of the things he said) you've decided that the fact I pushed it in the first place is scummy? Intriguing that the wagon is okay while I'm pushing the mislim but when I suddenly lose interest in the wagon it's suddenly scummy that I wanted it in the first place, even though you're basically screaming to the rooftops that I'm a player who is known for, as town, yolo wagoning people and changing wagons if I don't like how I feel about the wagon. Who in fact never really was able to replicate that kind of play as scum, self admittedly! Your logic is self defeating when I didn't end up pushing the wagon through in the first place.

Why is it scummy that I think that a bunch of people are town and scum will need to do something to prevent themselves getting bowled by too many townies finding each other? Why as town who is confident in other town would I not feel exactly this way? Funny that you talk like I've been systematically suppressing any criticism of the townblock and yet Aristeia who was voted by a bunch of strong townies got me cancelling her wagon. Didn't push Merlyn. Cancelled my push on Beeboy. Interesting that we talk about people trying to sneak in to be spared yet I'm making my own job getting spared harder by fully locking in a bunch of players (who largely agree that the others are town) as town. Why is Sakura going to vote me for sparing when she knows if I'm town I should be consenting to spare her? Why would a single player vote to spare me when I have essentially said that half the playerlist consists of people that I'm 100% sure no qualifiers are town? Why am I helping players like Aristeia gain influence in the game even though they've made it abundantly clear that there is essentially no universe where they spare me? Meanwhile you supported the Dann/Sakura conflict which frankly is pretty far outside of your town paygrade, talked about how people were getting townread too easily without really accusing anyone, etcetra. There's a very clear difference in whose set of actions scum are motivated to do and you're checking all the boxes while I just sit here making the game miserable for scum, whether or not I am myself scum.

You say talking about the elephant in the room even though you yourself commented no one seemed to like you despite you being pretty active, although I think you knew even then I knew you were the mysterious scum of the day. I felt like going for Beeboy first because I was lazy but let's get this going, for this is the main event, you are scum, and your death has been ordered

by divine mandate.

Do you like how I named the account this so I could do that btw

VOTE: Lazy Shirou

[Mandate]

I didn't see the offer of a temporary cessation of dancing, but I suppose I am still open to it because I don't really want to be spending forever here either. Or maybe I do.
I honestly have no idea how I'll react to being in a full on mafia tunnel war again. But I suspect I will feel relatively ambivalent about it. The idea felt exhausting but now that it's here I'm kinda energized.

[Mandate]

Also the original post was way cooler and way more dramatic but it got eaten up by the site downtime and I kinda failed to replicate the energy it had and I am sad.

[Mandate]

Who are those three people?

[Mandate]

Eh if scum are gonna openly try to use meta against me I'll just own up to it so that I can rebut the assertions being made.

I can very confidently say I played at most 3 games with Beeboy in the period from 2017 to 2020. Not only do I lack meta on the player the entire idea of holding a lack of meta knowledge against a player who hasn't played in four years is an incredibly stretch. There is only one player in this game on whom I """have meta""" in any real sense and she is not a player that anyone is going to struggle to read.

[Mandate]

1) It's exactly because I was glazing over beeboy's posts/discussion that only later (now), as I was trying to sort him, I remembered the thing about meta. I've never played a game with beeboy before and it came to my mind as I was struggling to read him. You unvoted him but also said you hadn't really reconsidered him in 1029. I can't say much else about the "timing" I decided to post this? I posted as soon as the idea came to me and I verified it. I didn't take your unvote as you suddenly thinking beeboy was town (which I still think you don't see him as?).

2) I don't think that creating a townblock or your philosophy here is necessarily scummy per se, but I found now the beeboy thing scummy unless you've some solid explanations for that (and also the way you've engaged Ari, kinda). Therefore once I began to see your slot more negatively for other things, I also thought whether your attempt at forming a townblock with yourself on it was scum motivated. There's enough incentive for scum to try to direct the formation of a townblock with themselves on it, even if not directly to try to be spared at the first moment.

3) Yeah I'm on my "Lazy Alt" as you can see so I'm being more casual and I'm unhappily not an universal town read yet. That also happened in one other town game in this alt where I memed even harder and almost ended up being limmed. I would rather not die today though, thank you for the offer! I'm also just town and don't think I would have likely picked this fight with you in D1 if I was (although maybe I would try to risk it so that people would potentially town read me for it? dunno.)

What is scummy about me wagoning someone and then deciding I don't like how the wagon feels?
How is that more scummy than me not wagoning that player? Why is the fact that I need to wagon a player who says "unreadable games might favor wolves" to decide that they might be town a mark against me?
Like it's literally a mark in my favor, I'm doing something that I am ""known"" for not being able to do as scum and have never needed to do because there's so many other ways to play games and people don't like me doing it anyway

The question is not as scum would I form a townblock potentially. The question is would I do that as town. The question is also as scum how exactly would I do it, would I be trying to mend rifts ie between Sakura and Dann or would I be preventing them from being explored and potentially keeping them alive to exploit later as an opportunity to get my spare leapfrogged over them. It should also go without saying that if I'm trying to win as scum I just need to not be alt guessed and I win by default in nearly any iteration of events? I didn't even want to be alt guessed but I'm town who has whatever you want to call "iconic" playstyle that I always found it difficult to get away from while playing to win as town, as scum I can play as anything and I'd have been quite happy as scum just snowing the entire game as an anon alt that could be literally anyone.

All I have to do as scum is simply not be identified. I'd push Dunnstral as scum (unless he's my cospy), force genocide route, win.

I don't understand your knee jerk hatred of the townblock coming from town, I don't understand how you thought Sakura vs Dunn was anything other than a meme, I may be too long gone to the extent that I've forgotten what being autoscumread is really like but I just don't understand you thinking that I'm scum for the reasons that you think I'm scum when if you're clearly this sure on your alt guess you'd know I have so many better options as scum than what I'm doing. So yeah, I think you're just scum. Whether you got townread or not in your other game doesn't change that. If you are town you need to stop everything you're doing and if your gut pings you so much about the townblock you need to find someone in the townblock you think is actually scum and you need to explain why they are scum, because if this is a world where Beeboy/you are both town and scum is like 3/4 merlyn ali dunn aristeia meuh and multiple townies are playing in a way such that they will look like utter garbage in the later stages of a sparing run then this game is not going to be won and that will be for essentially no reason.

I don't know on Beeboy. I have missing information that I think that I need to be sure because he does a lot of things that should be scum according to my mental notes but I feel like he is town anyway for the sheer confidence lack of fucks given attitude in the face of the push and I am far too out of practice to resolve that. I think that he is probably town if you're town and assuredly town if you're scum.

[Mandate]

Who are those three people?

You ever just sit down and come to the slow answer that you don’t townread someone nearly as much as others? Yeah that was me after work. As for who the three are it’s Alisae, Meuh, and Merlyn. So I would love some help of you feel strongly on those slots.

I think enough of the active players are town that there's gonna be scum in there.
I'm slowly starting to lean scum on Meuh as the game progresses but I don't feel any immediate impetus to vote them.

[Mandate]

Instead of answering that question I'll ask a different one

Why does this actually matter? I'm failing to understand how you resolve my slot via these means and when I don't understand how you resolve my slot via these means I lack any interest in engaging with you on it.
You know I cover up my reads, I was even pretty open in this game that I was concealing my reads, so I'm failing to understand how when you play exactly how I said I thought scum would play you're confused that I'm scumreading it.

The answer is something entirely different, by the way, the answer is that because I didn't feel anything I scumread you because I thought that it is inherently scummy that your posting doesn't make me feel anything.
As for me not feeling any inclination to wagon you... Yeah. I didn't lie, I just said something that implies something slightly different than what I was actually thinking because I wanted to see what would happen from there.

I think you could intentionally exaggerate the "I was always onto you" narrative as either alignment though and it's one of the things that makes it hard to engage with you sometimes

Even as town you like, maximize the pressure you apply even if you sacrifice a bit of intellectual honesty at the process. I can kinda understand it because I've also done it but yeah, I think it's at least half bullshit

Nah, not this time. And you're aware it's been several years, yeah? A lot of the excesses in my play that existed solely to counteract people being predisposed to scumread me aren't going to have any continuity because I haven't had any reason to practice them, I still play Avalon on occasion but I don't take it nearly as seriously and I don't exist in an environment where I'm forced to do ridiculous stuff to adapt. I am not the same as a person nor as a mafia player. It's not worth it to me to constantly be lying and manipulating people even when I'm on the good side to scrape out increases in winrate. The old way would have been to refuse to derail the wagon on Aristeia because she is a strategic threat to me and force her to either renounce the scumread on me or die and to do a great many other things that would decrease my enjoyment of the game, increase my effort required, and maybe give me 3-4 higher percentage chance of winning. I don't want to be playing this game as someone that I'm not anymore.

I'm really not happy with the sequence of events that lead to my being effectively outed even though I went to the trouble to make an alt in a period where I hadn't had any site activity in several months but if everyone wants to put me in that bin then sure

[Mandate]

I didn't even want to be alt guessed but I'm town who has whatever you want to call "iconic" playstyle that I always found it difficult to get away from while playing to win as town, as scum I can play as anything and I'd have been quite happy as scum just snowing the entire game as an anon alt that could be literally anyone.

All I have to do as scum is simply not be identified.

I have a question, I'm not sure I'm understanding what you're saying. Are you saying that if people knew your main (and were familiar with your main) they would look back on your posts and here and they would be like, 'yup this is his town game'? I'm not asking you to say who your main is or anything, a yes or no is just fine

If you don't already know my main then you don't need to worry about it and I'd prefer to exist as my own person in this game.

[Mandate]

Okay then how am I going to win by being the only scum spared, Shirou, if I even end up spared?

Where's the endgame?

If we agree that say 9 people contains exactly 1 scum why are you making sweeping commentaries about people throwing out townreads too easily?
Like, shouldn't your worry be specifically that I am scum with Dunnstral and that be your only real worry, since I don't really have a way of getting my teammates spared?

I never said the fact you were wagoning someone was suspicious, I said I expected you (and some other players) to have some familiarity with Beeboy and did find suspicious no one had brought up the day/night meta argument on him, and therefore wagoning him or letting his wagon grow felt potentially suspicious if anyone had that knowledge (other than Ali since she's not here).

Based on? Again, like, is this just based on a theory that I am required to know everything that has ever happened?

C'mon, we both know that's not completely true. As scum Pushing Dunn is good if the opportunity arises but it's pretty obvious that most people would lean towards Mercy and scum doesn't want to be left out of the "townblock" if we go through that route. Isolationism is a poor choice as either alignment here. I WASN'T arguing that what you were doing was necessarily scummy/only had scum motives, but I felt that because of other stuff I thought was negative towards your slot, I had suspicious about your motives for doing what you were doing too.

I don't want to play spare and risk that both of my teammates are too weak to get spared and I also don't want myself to get flipped before the end of the game because I don't trust my current ability to manipulate spew enough to intentionally be flipped and have it point the wrong ways. I actually think it should be really obvious why from my point of view I would want to force the game into genocide run as scum, so, I'm a little confused how this is a point of contention for you. I would even go so far as to say that if you don't understand both that as scum I would heavily heavily desire genocide run and would be willing to make a giant play to push it and accept whatever consequences that makes to my reads then I don't think you understand the way I approach this game as scum enough for anything you say about what I would and wouldn't do as scum to have any value.

If spare happens, I end up flipped. If I end up flipped, I lose control of the game and town get to know for a fact that I was not a member of the town. I wouldn't even want to be spared unless I'm the second scum spared. Otherwise I'm accepting lower winrate than I am comfortable with as scum. (I also have a lot of stuff I have no interest in doing as scum anymore, but in terms of just playing the game in the best manner strategically my interests have not shifted whatsoever.)

And yeah this all adds up to, as scum I want to remain anonymous, make a really convincing case to get everyone to kill Dunnstral, and then coast on "Scum didn't kill me because I derptunneled Dunn" to the end of the game. It just makes the game so much easier than playing it any other way. For the same reason I'd try to avoid bussing d1/d2 because it pushes the game to spare but I'd probably try to kill the weaker buddy on d3. If and only if one of my buddies has a really strong performance and the other is really weak I would make some sort of spare play but I would always consider going down the spare path to be inherently limiting to my ability to solo carry a game as scum.

I'm already doing that. I'm saying I thought you were the scum trying to infiltrate the scum block, pointed out why and now am discussing it out with you. I said I agreed with most of your townblock.

I think that the way you have approached this makes very little sense if you think I am the only scum infiltrating the townblock. I mean I'm trying to rationalize it as some kind of my existence means insta scum win thing.
I'm not going to say you shouldn't think I'm scum because, well, I am required to accept a priori that any player that exists may think I am scum, but...



Ok we've established Keyleth is who you think is the other scum that I'm planning on getting in the spare then?

Not entirely believing you buy that my scum partner who I'm pushing just says no I'm town you're town too I'll let you lim me but you can't lim Taly because I think he's town unless you think I wrote those posts for her. Is that where you stand?

[Mandate]

I mean you can dislike it, but I think if this was 4 years ago I am never giving you this much of a chance to not take positions that I hate when the way you played this game lets me mislim you for essentially free. So rly you should like it. I don't think a single player who is familiar with me questions me mislimming you if I just go no relent from the point where our conflict started. I think I'm giving you a lot of chances after Baton Pass. And no its not a question of memory at no point did I ever have a meta read on Beeboy, but even barring that I don't see why I'm expected to remember.

I don't really have much to question you about. I wanted to take a strong stance to where I felt confident that if I need to lim you during this day phase I can win the battle. I feel no immediate impulse to end the day or lim you so if you aren't actually going to be counterpushing on me like I thought you were leading up to when I was reading earlier then I'm just going to resume waiting for Alisae to post and trying to decide what I think about Meuh (she is causing me grief especially considering I misread her in the SH game). I think I'd read you interacting with other people better anyway.

I do think it's funny though that I've made several pretty much irrefutable points about why I'm town and you won't say anything besides that you can't tell, but I won't pretend that I think that means anything.

[Mandate]

Actually I'm curious, why should I think you're town here from your point of view?

@Mandate

I'm not trying to "draw" exactly how you would find your way to the endgame. But like if I was scum for example and wanted to go with the strategy of creating a "townblock", here's how I could do it assuming Toriel was town:

I would first be the one controlling the direction the townblock forms, opposing those that want to dismantle it and inserting one of my partners in it.

Then I would find a random mislim bait in D1 or let town find that on their own, and in D2 I would hardbus a partner.

With the credit I got from hardbussing my partner, I would use to spare another townie in D3. In D4 I would push for a partner to be spared but the bus from D2 and having correctly spared a townie in D3 would likely make it so I wouldn't be obvscum for it. Then in D5 I would push for another townie to be spared, and in the last day for myself.

This isn't necessarily what I would try to do here and I agree that perhaps I'm projecting too much how I play as scum on you, but I don't think it's ridiculous to assume that just because you're trying to create a townblock, you're automatically town or so?

I think this is a terrible plan because I think you are known enough as a good scum player that people should question why you are still alive after all that time. You also risk a player who becomes autotown by existing subbing in towards the end of the game. I think winning genocide is a million times easier and more reliable.

[Mandate]

I think at some point you fully run out of answers. You can play around it but it's gonna be a lot harder than just playing normally.

[Mandate]

Anything can be the case. Literally anything can be justified as seven layers of wifom dressed in a trenchcoat. I have made many different plays that are objectively making my life harder if I'm scum even if the fact that I think that I radiate (.) town isn't taken into question. I do think I radiate town tho. 0 cap.

[Mandate]

I feel like the entire push started with the answer to that question (ie, I think scum are going to get boxed in pretty quickly and have to play disruption.)

I think for obvious reasons Someone Like You would consider me the easiest point in the townblock to attack because, well, it historically has worked for people on the past on MafiaScum.Net to be like "yo but like what if he scum lol"

[Mandate]

I will make the claim without evidence that scum is in a bad spot in this game and I believe that is true but I'll seem very silly if its not so whatever
I don't think you had any way of knowing you had to mega effort from very early in the game with the direction the game is going, I think the game only started seeming hard for scum midway through.
I do somewhat vibe with the "I try harder to be townread as scum" but, like, your account is called Lazy Shirou? Am I not supposed to think you're being lazy no matter what?

Shirou to me is very obvious town btw.

What am I?

[Mandate]

I mean I don't think there's no worlds the people all talking here are town I just think that if that's the case then Beeboy either you misread Merlyn or it's like Meuh/Dunn/Alisae. Or Brown Eyes is scum who managed to keep up her energy for like a day xD

this part is wrong though

when the more active people started to townread each other it was obviously going to turn into "scum are in the inactive/null players"

I mean, I feel like that's when you started laying the seeds of a push on me fmpov, but I understand the general case you're making.
I just am unsure how to take it in the context of a Lazy Shirou account claiming you wouldn't be lazy as scum.

this part is wrong though

when the more active people started to townread each other it was obviously going to turn into "scum are in the inactive/null players"

I do think the point the game would have started to go from feeling memey to oppressive as scum was pretty sudden.
But sure. Let's say I'm town, Beeboy is town, you're town, Dann is town, Sakura is town, Taly is town, Brown Eyes town for now, to my knowledge you haven't expressed townreads elsewhere.

Who are we limming today to hit scum?

[Mandate]

Fascinating

That is the one player I have actually committed to meta reading and I'm gonna do that before I comment on it

I would be surprised if you and her are both town. I'm not saying it cannot be the case, but I'd be very surprised.

[Mandate]

Idk man I really fucking don't wanna live in the world that all 3 scum are in Alisae Dunnstral Meuh Aristeia BrownEyes, that world is just... depressing. Scum not even putting up the slightest contest and town nonstop playing disruption.

[Mandate]

I'm not saying Meuh and Dunn aren't doing anything, and I think even Aristeia has a reasonable amount of presence, just, that would be a lot of towns instigating conflict with other townies.
Obviously I don't wanna live in a world where my townreads are wrong and I'm bad either. And that world exists, tbf.

Would rather believe that at least one scum is trying to do things.

[Mandate]

I mean you say that but I had already unvoted him and said I got cold feet so realistically I think from a you!scum point of view you have pretty good reason to believe that's not going to work out.
But sure, you haven't put up that much contest. Which is boring, I wanted to dance and mega tunnel fight my life away.

Disagreeing with you doesn't mean I don't want there to be a block of people we agree should be spared first

I've no interest in being spared myself

I think that in the end you'll find that if I'm scum your interest in preventing my spare is going to amount to nothing but if you are town and I'm town it will probably bar both of us from being spares and possibly cost the game
I wonder if in a hypothetical universe where that happened you'd consider it your fault for contesting my being a universal townread or you'd blame me for initiating on you first

I think the world where you're town makes me very, very sad.

[Mandate]

I am quite confident that me Meuh and Alisae are not 3 scums, I'll say that.

[Mandate]

I mean I say that also in the sense of there is no avenging Baton Pass if you're town.

[Mandate]

There's this sense in which intellectually I don't ever remember why I townread Keyleth but then she posts and I'm like oh yeah that's why

[Mandate]

It's totally nothing to do with the new pokemon fangame right

[Mandate]

Game is a social experiment all players are town GG thanks for joining everyone please nominate this game for all available scummies categories, it is undertale themed so it is guaranteed to win