Shell Game (Day 4)

[Firebagel]

yes I rolled scum!

[Firebagel]

Gimmick? Are you saying you're not actually scum?

[Firebagel]

Gimmick? Are you saying you're not actually scum?

I am always scum. How dare u assume otherwise

But I can't even see you in the scum PT. You're not lying to me, are you?

[Firebagel]

Pooky, you're not allowed to set up a new casino until you pay off the debts from the last one!

VOTE: Pooky

[Firebagel]

I will RVS as long as I feel like it, thanks.

What even makes you so sure it was RVS though?

[Firebagel]

Firebagel was because as an alt that may very well only exist for the purpose of stealing Firebringer's scum claiming gimmick, it hadn't posted for a page.

Dang, he figured out the joke so easily!

Not sure what posting rate has to do with anything though.

[Firebagel]

Fluffy flavor banter.

VOTE
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

is not a template I associate with a serious vote. Are you affirming that it is a serious vote, then?

Nope!

But someone's got to hold the bear accountable for his illicit activities!

[Firebagel]

I will RVS as long as I feel like it, thanks.

What even makes you so sure it was RVS though?

Can you explain why you are taking a hostile/adversarial position to this line of inquery? It has a hard time believing you can't see that your entrance is above the line of suspicious and overtly drawing attention, so it wants to understand what the motivation of your doing this is? What do you aim to accomplish with this tact?

What comes across as hostile to you? And what's suspicious and drawing attention about my entrance?

[Firebagel]

Oblivion town

And probably hasn't looked at Firebringer's sig.

[Firebagel]

Oblivion town

And probably hasn't looked at Firebringer's sig.

Can you answer the question, though? It would like an answer.

Sure. I think I was being flippant, not hostile; and I think my entrance was pretty clearly a joke to amuse me (and maybe get some potentially useful reactions).

[Firebagel]

Dunnstral feels town

Ohlivion's questions feel off

VOTE: oblivion

Dunn is tryharding and that worries me a little, so I'm on like the totally opposite page here.

[Firebagel]

To those who have expressed town reads on it, can it ask for a deeper look into the why behind those sentiments from each of you, for the purpose of its mental models?

Your prompt response pushing for an answer to your questions was self-assured in a towny way indicating you actually cared about the matter.

[Firebagel]

These, along with their not so stellar (but not quite irredeemable!) early posts makes me happy with my vote on them.

Wow, "not quite irredeemable" is awfully strong language for being like six hours into the game.

[Firebagel]

I am in a six person hood that is not Marci’s

Oh so this is why it's a shell game.

Ugh I don't wanna play outguess the mod about scum in hoods.

[Firebagel]

People who engage in gimmicks like that place a high priority on RVS banter to form early reads. If they do not post while the iron is hot, the utility disappears as well.

Wow, could not be more wrong. But the "omg you're playing wrong" way of thinking could easily be your towngame.

[Firebagel]

Dunnstral feels town

Ohlivion's questions feel off

VOTE: oblivion

Dunn is tryharding and that worries me a little, so I'm on like the totally opposite page here.

Which posts in particular?
Because I feel like Dunn is doing the opposite.

-Herr Mitt

I wouldn't say it was anything from a post in particular. Just was thinking about the strength of the playerlist and thinking about how out of place I am, then remembered town Dunn can be kinda limbaity too, and that made me wonder if he's trying to actively post useful looking stuff to look better.

[Firebagel]

I think shello is town

Firebagel feels awkward and stilted as scum in a way that I'm not sensing here and is probably town too

This is Firebagel's first game on this account. Are you privy to secret knowledge or is this some kind of reaction test?

Wait what?????

[Firebagel]

Firebagel feels awkward and stilted as scum in a way that I'm not sensing here and is probably town too

I think I agree with this

Seriously what is this, I demand elaboration from both of you

[Firebagel]

Oh boy. It has the sense it is going to struggle with the speed of this game. It will begin to read at this moment, from where it left off, but if users had questions for it sufficient it could engage with them and begin mental modelling it would strongly prefer live interaction to combing through 30 pages.

Word. I just spent like two hours reading to get caught up.

I have some concerns about the setup and how everyone is just accepting that a hood is set up a particular way, given that this game is literally called "shell game" and the mod clearly knows what that is.

[Firebagel]

if someones frustrated do you think its more likely to be scum or town

(anyone respond to this)

Probably largely dependent on the person and the situation; I know people can townread frustration easily but that can be dangerous.

[Firebagel]

Oh boy. It has the sense it is going to struggle with the speed of this game. It will begin to read at this moment, from where it left off, but if users had questions for it sufficient it could engage with them and begin mental modelling it would strongly prefer live interaction to combing through 30 pages.

Word. I just spent like two hours reading to get caught up.

I have some concerns about the setup and how everyone is just accepting that a hood is set up a particular way, given that this game is literally called "shell game" and the mod clearly knows what that is.

Well, a deAAAthy is in and of itself, a shell game, of sorts. Hence the thematic. I'm sure the other hood has a different sort of fuckery ready for us.

I'm not at all familiar with a dethy so I'm maybe not understanding how it plays out, but I don't get where the shell game aspect comes in if it's just exactly what's expected. It doesn't feel like the hood being thought of as a dethy really even changes how we'd see the alignment of its players. We expect one in the five to be scum regardless.

[Firebagel]

If this is true and matches the link given exactly... it would assume the best play would to be look anywhere but within those 5 today. Two cops whose results can actually be interpreted for results, with time and flips and two that can't? Makes little sense to do scum's work for them.

So let that resolve as it goes and simply look elsewhere to kill today?

I approve of this line of thought.

[Firebagel]

The scum in the deathy has to play a shell game where they have to pick a faked alignment, and stick to it. While constantly trying NOT to be narrowed down into a 1v1 vs whoever actually has their assigned sanity.

This plays out like the mafia in the deathy is going for a shell game, they want to last as long as possible with misdireciton and ambiguity. The more sleights of hand and "mist" you can get away with, the better your long term odds, but in the end you WILL die, so you're playing for maximum chaos agent while alive knowing you cannot endgame.

I dunno, playing a game you're doomed to lose in spite of your misdirection sounds like the opposite of a shell game to me.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html

Yeah I can't resist the chance to link to Order of the Stick, fite me.

[Firebagel]

FWIW I'm with you here, they did start calling you names

What the heck dude, are you trying to rekindle this fight? We don't need this.

[Firebagel]

it's been unexplicitly said at this point multiple times and i think it's frankly dumb to not just make it clear so btw, we aren't straight up cops, we are inventors who give out cop shots of unknown sanity

so it's like one step removed from dethy i guess idk

Thank you for the clarification, I was on the verge of asking why people were just randomly bringing up inventors.

[Firebagel]

VOTE: Dannflor

[Firebagel]

Okay this is... an overeaction and a half. What is it even meant to say? It is clearly trying to speak about the manner in which you approach the game. The only player here being personally insulting, from its view, is you.

Consider this an emotional support post, I totally agree and hope whatever the hell happened here isn't going to be a discouragement to you.

[Firebagel]

what if scum has to swap a member either in or out of one of the hoods every night or something, they choose which

Well that sounds like a great way to get all the attention, not suspicious at all.

[Firebagel]

Oblivion and morph are town.

[Firebagel]

and who is wolf?

Don't have any strong scumreads.

[Firebagel]

and who is wolf?

Don't have any strong scumreads.

do you have any leads at all?
i’m asking because you seemed a little uncomfortable when you showed up and i feel like your posts are not really engaging with the game at large

Weird take but okay, if you think I was uncomfortable you can think that.

I dunno what you mean by leads but Dann feels weird at times, like the vote on Marci really felt out of place and I pegged morph as town for also having a skeptical reaction to it. I'll have to look more closely but it felt like he might've had more info there.

Also I literally don't know what he meant by tagging along with CSF's read of me and I haven't gotten the clarification I demanded.

What do you expect from someone who's "engaging with the game at large"? Talking to everyone? That's not how I operate.

[Firebagel]

theres so many people id kill b4 firebringer

for example the badly done imitation bagel edition

Oh no, he realized I'm only imitating a bagel.

Foiled again!

[Firebagel]

isn't firebagel doctor drew?

I so want to yellow m&m this

But that would require a lot of effort figuring out where Drew keeps them

[Firebagel]

tbh I think Firebagel decided her entrance into this game before she even got her role PM because her account is a play off of Firebringer, who is known for claiming scum every game

But thanks for answering, that seems like a believable thought process at least

wait, it thought those connections were just jokes based on the name, is the account really actually a joke account trying to mirror firebringer's playersytle?

I don't think she's trying to mimic all of Firebringer's playstyle, just the part where he jokingly claims scum (her account creation was motivated by Firebringer based on her signup post). The rest of her playstyle seems true to her usual self.

Yeah, I don't know Firebringer well enough to actually keep it up, but that was definitely the idea.

But what is my 'usual' playstyle? Does Oblivion seem accurate in describing it from what it's seen here?

[Firebagel]

Maria is in this game?

yeah she is one of the heads to the anon hydra

Is this as accurate as your guess that I'm Doctor Drew?

[Firebagel]

Okay since morph doesn't want my vote i leave it open to the game.
Guess what cheese im thinking of u become a double voter for 48 hours

Gouda

[Firebagel]

Yeah, I don't know Firebringer well enough to actually keep it up, but that was definitely the idea.

But what is my 'usual' playstyle? Does Oblivion seem accurate in describing it from what it's seen here?

By "usual" playstyle, I meant that you're not trying to deliberate obfuscate your posting. For the most part you're posting things you would normally post on your main

And hmm, it's right that you're lighthearteded at times and you'll generally say what's on your mind, but I don't think you're "off the cuff." I think Oblivion's thought process was typed up quickly and checks out enough that I think it's real though

You realize this doesn't really give me enough to be able to assess your thoughts here.

[Firebagel]

VOTE: Dannflor
sorry the cheese has spoken.

Yeaaaah!!!!

Now I just need like at least half a dozen more people to offer their votes in exchange for an obvious answer and maybe someone will have to actually care about my existence!

[Firebagel]

Yeah, I don't know Firebringer well enough to actually keep it up, but that was definitely the idea.

But what is my 'usual' playstyle? Does Oblivion seem accurate in describing it from what it's seen here?

By "usual" playstyle, I meant that you're not trying to deliberate obfuscate your posting. For the most part you're posting things you would normally post on your main

And hmm, it's right that you're lighthearteded at times and you'll generally say what's on your mind, but I don't think you're "off the cuff." I think Oblivion's thought process was typed up quickly and checks out enough that I think it's real though

You realize this doesn't really give me enough to be able to assess your thoughts here.

Thoughts on what?

Why do you think I'm asking you about your thoughts on me?

[Firebagel]

I don't know quite frankly. Maybe you're surprised by how quickly I was able to figure out who you were? I'm not sure why you would be though.

Well I'm not even sure that you have! You're being vague enough about it. I don't think it's unreasonable that you could guess who I am but I wasn't expecting anyone to do so here so your level of confidence in both that and your read is strange to me.

And I sorta feel like if you're guessing right, this conversation should give you some more doubt on your read.

[Firebagel]

I don't know quite frankly. Maybe you're surprised by how quickly I was able to figure out who you were? I'm not sure why you would be though.

Well I'm not even sure that you have! You're being vague enough about it. I don't think it's unreasonable that you could guess who I am but I wasn't expecting anyone to do so here so your level of confidence in both that and your read is strange to me.

And I sorta feel like if you're guessing right, this conversation should give you some more doubt on your read.

I think your use of emojis at the end of sentences gives you away. Or do you remember when I read biancospino off of the Activity Overview?

.....

Surely...

other people...

use...

*scanning pages and games at random*

...

[Firebagel]

LET THE VOTES ROLL IN

Oh this is too tempting

VOTE: Firebringer

[Firebagel]

I've seen scum Gypyx much more recently than 2020 and she seemed very confident there. Very different game than this, granted.

[Firebagel]

LET THE VOTES ROLL IN

Oh this is too tempting

VOTE: Firebringer

Also
Icky vote

~ skitter

Psst

You misspelled 'funny vote'

[Firebagel]

Yeah I didn't glean the meaning of that post saying it was notsci either

I'm only vaguely aware of the existence of notsci though so that's kinda to be expected

[Firebagel]

Yeah I didn't glean the meaning of that post saying it was notsci either

I'm only vaguely aware of the existence of notsci though so that's kinda to be expected

it was a signal specifically to notsci.

No I mean 1937 meant nothing to me because "are those words supposed to be understandable by the masses?" is exactly where I was at that point, so replying "it's pretty clearly been notsci" was just more gibberish to me until he said it more clearly.

[Firebagel]

My main impression of Firebagel, besides liking their cheekiness, is that in this playerlist they give me LHF feels. I have an alt guess, but I haven't actually played a game with the player I'm thinking of so I'm not putting much stock in it, other than to note that if I'm right I wouldn't can that player LHF

What resulted in bagel getting above the line in your reads list?

Her interaction with Oblivion mostly. It's one example of her not making adjustments from pushback/scumreads.

I was not townreading her before the Oblivion interaction.

If this were a smaller player list, seeing players I'm not townreading jumping on her wagon once it started would be giving me a nasty case of hives. Even with the player list size, I'm not happy about specifically how that wagon has grown.

Wait, who are these people you're not townreading jumping on my wagon? Dragons? Am I confused in thinking you're townreading Dunnstral?

[Firebagel]

Firebagel, I was actually confusing your wagon with Firebringer's. I'm townreading two players on him in the latest VC.

VC 1.7

Firebringer 5 (Dannflor, Shello, Penguin, Sunflower, CSF)
STD 3 (Hermit, Pooky, Brian Skies)
Dannflor 3 (Firebagel, Firebringer, STD)
marcistar 2 (ActionDan, Bingle)
Firebagel 2 (Dunnstral, Lukewarm)
Sunflower 2 (Klick, Spiffeh)
Spiffeh 1 (Gypyx)

Not voting (Oblivion, SirCakez, marcistar, morph)

With 22 alive, it takes 12 to fire a player into the sun.

Deadline: (expired on 2024-05-09 04:07:00)

OK, that makes more sense. Does clearing that confusion affect how you view the wagon? (which I am currently on as well because )

[Firebagel]

I think your wagon is misguided.

What do you think of your wagon (however it's currently configured, since it has changed).

Yeah, misguided is about how I've felt about it too. Luke is probably town. Dragons is kinda hmmmm at this point which is odd, but maybe the specifics of the game are affecting how he's playing. Can't remember if Pooky ever actually voted me or just thought about it but he's probably town. Dunnstral... well, in a vacuum I'd probably be voting there but people like you are townreading him and I'm inclined to listen to that.

[Firebagel]

Yeah, misguided is about how I've felt about it too. Luke is probably town. Dragons is kinda hmmmm at this point which is odd, but maybe the specifics of the game are affecting how he's playing. Can't remember if Pooky ever actually voted me or just thought about it but he's probably town. Dunnstral... well, in a vacuum I'd probably be voting there but people like you are townreading him and I'm inclined to listen to that.

You would be voting for me why?

I don't like the aggressive, wrongheaded positional feeling I'm getting from you, like you want to stir up trouble. It's not at all what I've seen from you as town.

[Firebagel]

I'm not sure what you are referring to.

I don't think it should be hard to figure out if you've actually paid attention to what I've said. And I don't particularly want to bring it up again.

[Firebagel]

Shello and Goodbye who do you think are the scum on the FB wagon if you're doubting your scum read there?

i really did not like bagels vote
the timing of it was not good. i think that while bagel might be more inclined as both alignments 2 vote for firebringer because interaction, gimmick, it was just gross 2 me. skitter feels the same

- ydra

Sorry you don't have a sense of humor, but I think getting Firepup to join his own wagon was hilarious XD

[Firebagel]

Shello and Goodbye who do you think are the scum on the FB wagon if you're doubting your scum read there?

i really did not like bagels vote
the timing of it was not good. i think that while bagel might be more inclined as both alignments 2 vote for firebringer because interaction, gimmick, it was just gross 2 me. skitter feels the same

- ydra

Sorry you don't have a sense of humor, but I think getting Firepup to join his own wagon was hilarious XD

Can you do the same trick but with Cakez?

Sure why not

VOTE: SirCakez

[Firebagel]

what a waste of ur cheese

VOTE: sircakez

I hear your concerns about the timing not being a good way to make a read and think there's a lot of worlds where that's true

I just don't care enough when actively asked

[Firebagel]

don't think i said anything resembling the word null

What does calling half the hydra town and half scum mean for their alignment then?

[Firebagel]

Gypyx, do you think Dann and Spiffeh would be playing around you specifically this game, given how many other more vocal people are in this list ?

I noticed you used a similar argument with Spiffeh - "Spiffeh is scum because he would say this specific thing to deliberately pocket me in particular" but I'm not sure I buy that you truly believe that.

I'm a slot that usually lives to ELo, i think my opinion is pretty important to the scumteam

i do agree that point wasn't a masterpiece though, kinda my brain running on an ego theory

Huh. As one of those kinda slots too, I find that way of thinking a little weird at this early stage of the game, especially with what seems to be a significant number of people currently willing to vote you.

[Firebagel]

i think that sort of self-centeredness tends to be towny

How much pressure do you think Gypyx feels at this point?

[Firebagel]

i think that sort of self-centeredness tends to be towny

How much pressure do you think Gypyx feels at this point?

not much

I don't think we've done a very good job building pressure on anyone this game

Firebringer was the closest thing to real pressure but even that was kinda fake

What do you make of her 2555?

[Firebagel]

firebagel whos scum

Probably like somewhere in here:

Firebringer
Brian Skies
Gypyx
Spiffeh
Hermit Crab (anonymous hydra)
Save The Dragons
Shello and Goodbye (Ydrasse & skitter30)
experience ActionDan
Sunflower (JupiterXV & fireisredsir)
SirCakez
Klick
Bingle
PenguinPower
Dannflor

[Firebagel]

What do you make of her 2555?

I think it's mildly towny

I think scum instinctually tries to look less sensitive to a couple votes

Hmmmm

Don't think I really agree, at least as far as what I expect from the kind of player I think she is. Taking a 'woe is me' approach certainly seems like something that could be in her scum wheelhouse.

[Firebagel]

Hermit Crab (anonymous hydra)
Shello and Goodbye (Ydrasse & skitter30)

ngl im a bit curious on why you put these names in your list, i don't think people have voiced any scumreads on them and im wondering if you see anything there?

I copy/pasted the playerlist and missed taking Hermit Crab out.

Shello was sorta borderline whether to leave in or take out. Probably their fault I missed taking the crab next to them out. Accursed seafood!

shello and goodbye i have no clue on, but i do know some people have had differing opinions. do you have anything that can help clear this up for me?

I literally don't even know what you're asking for here. You want me to explain why people have differing opinions on them? You want me to convince you of a read on them?

[Firebagel]

firebagel whos scum

Probably like somewhere in here:

Firebringer
Brian Skies
Gypyx
Spiffeh
Hermit Crab (anonymous hydra)
Save The Dragons
Shello and Goodbye (Ydrasse & skitter30)
experience ActionDan
Sunflower (JupiterXV & fireisredsir)
SirCakez
Klick
Bingle
PenguinPower
Dannflor

I thought you scumread me? Surprised I'm one of 7 people you are not pointing a finger at here.

Yeah you're one of those who was right there on the fringe of whether or not to leave in. Some of your more recent stuff felt a little better, so it ended up more leaning on the townreads of others. I didn't invest a lot of effort in this, it felt like Marci was giving me busywork and still does.

[Firebagel]

I literally don't even know what you're asking for here. You want me to explain why people have differing opinions on them? You want me to convince you of a read on them?

Sorry if its unclear, i want you to convince me of your read on them.

Y tho, they said they didn't really have one

Im tired of ignoring the firebagel slot because of how hard it is to read them so i want to see if they have anything at all T_T

Well that's certainly a take

It's not halfway through day one of a ridiculously large, lengthy game and you're expecting to have good reads on everyone? I find that notion baffling.

[Firebagel]

A lot of what marci is asking feels like she's trying to Ask and Do things, but the questions themselves feel forced and hollow idk

Thanks, I think you can join the townread club now

They're town for prying into what you were asking about and coming to an appropriate conclusion, Marci

[Firebagel]

Ur actually a clown dont speak to me

Yeah this is why I didn't really feel like talking to you, I didn't see it leading to anything other than unproductive annoyance.

[Firebagel]

I don't hate Cakez' catchup. I kinda expected to.

Neuterhalf left me laughter in our chat at your scumread before going to some navy weekend thing.

Yeah, I don't really agree with him on... anything, really. But that's pretty well what I'd expect a towncakez to post.

I feel like Cakez and HC are similar in that they're probably both town and we don't really see eye to eye right now and that's OK.

What about it makes you feel like it's from townCakez?

[Firebagel]

Morph, why do you expect Cakez to be good at reading you?

Marci, do you expect more than this from Cakez as town?

[Firebagel]

Morph, why do you expect Cakez to be good at reading you?

Marci, do you expect more than this from Cakez as town?

Why are you asking me wtf

Because you've expressed a strong belief of how you think Cakez should act, both here and I'm pretty sure in our past game as well. (I should probably go review that one).

[Firebagel]

I guess I haven't really been considering a traitor in the dethy hood and if that's the case I think you're right that I am probably putting too much stock into the genuine reactions surrounding the dethy reveal.

Either way, my thought was that scum!Dann was seeing a whole bunch of players town-telling based on the dethy reveal and his instinct was to jump in in a way that could be viewed as also having a genuine reaction to it while poo-pooing it so people wouldn't put so much stock into the reads garnered in that moment. I viewed (and still do, for the most part) that part of the game as a lot of Town players reacting genuinely to the new information, so I can could see why Scum would definitely not want to happen and Dann's posts fit that bill the most among the players posting actively at that time.

You're talking about the "anyone outside the hood and not exceedingly bored right now is scum" comment? It definitely pinged me as a pretty natural reaction when I was getting caught up reading that- "bored" wasn't exactly what I felt but I understand how someone who was there in the moment could feel that way. There was something going on in private with just enough information getting out to the main thread for us to know that something was going on, but not enough to know what. I didn't know what was going on at that point either and so Dannflor being snippy as he sits around waiting for people to start making sense to those of us not in the hood seems pretty on point to me.

[Firebagel]

Bingle did you miss my question?

I don't hate Cakez' catchup. I kinda expected to.

Neuterhalf left me laughter in our chat at your scumread before going to some navy weekend thing.

Yeah, I don't really agree with him on... anything, really. But that's pretty well what I'd expect a towncakez to post.

I feel like Cakez and HC are similar in that they're probably both town and we don't really see eye to eye right now and that's OK.

What about it makes you feel like it's from townCakez?

[Firebagel]

Oblivion feels tonally Town to me but I think that I'm town-reading the play style over its actual content which is a trap I've fallen into several times in the past. And I think it was Dann who said that that a lot of its engagement feels directionless and more like busy-work vs. thoughts and feelings they believe and are pursuing, which I agree with. I understand it later mentioned being sick which could explain some of its lack of gusto, but I am not longer townreading it.

Wow, I totally disagree with this take. I think Oblivion was highly focused on what it wanted and strongly pushed to get it. It wasn't busywork at all, it asked directed questions and used the communication to draw meaningful conclusions. I was pretty impressed with its assessment of how I play; a lot of it seemed pretty accurate, and while there was one thing that was quite off from how I historically have played, it is something that I am actively working to change in my mindset at this point, so I was pleased to see that it's apparently coming through not just to me.

[Firebagel]

On a completely different topic, my AD read has deteriorated hugely due to experience's lack of doing anything so far. It's become worrisome.

I don't think experience's (lack of) playing is worse than nai, frustrating as it is. Probably best to just stick to the read from ActionDan.

[Firebagel]

unless you're talking about us being the sanity check target, not a target to receive inventions. Using us as a sanity check is a good choice, probably.

You... you are? What if you get shot?

...wait, how the heck

do

we coordinate this? Everyone investigating the same target gives the best info right? But then that means mafia can just shoot the target and all that goes out the window. There hopefully would be a protective around, but then there's also decent chance of mafia having use of Unstoppable to counter that...

[Firebagel]

unless you're talking about us being the sanity check target, not a target to receive inventions. Using us as a sanity check is a good choice, probably.

You... you are? What if you get shot?

...wait, how the heck

do

we coordinate this? Everyone investigating the same target gives the best info right? But then that means mafia can just shoot the target and all that goes out the window. There hopefully would be a protective around, but then there's also decent chance of mafia having use of Unstoppable to counter that...

If we're used as a sanity check on night 2 by any of the invention recievers and get shot that night(which is not out of the question despite picking up some day 1 scumreads), then there's instant feedback about the sanity(s) of inventor-receiver(s) who copped us.

Am I missing something?

Oh. Right. The investigations resolve before the kill, huh?

I guess I'm just too used to thinking of cop checks being wasted if the target is shot that night. x.x

[Firebagel]

You calling Cakez and Bingle s/s?

[Firebagel]

That actually sounds like a pretty plausible solve tbh

How did you get to that though?

I've been all over the place in what I think of Cakez since that catchup post but I think at the moment I'd prefer voting Brian who's already got plenty of votes and I think there's still some organizing of the inventor stuff to do so UNVOTE:

[Firebagel]

So like, at first I looked at that big catchup post and was like "wow wtf, Cakez is actually bringing a big wallpost and reads after being away?! Never seen that before, normally he just comes back and is like 'uh I feel like we should vote X maybe idk why really, just feels like it' so maybe this is Cakez's scum game which I haven't really seen!"

Then people started unvoting and I was like "wow why are people unvoting, maybe he actually does do this stuff as town sometimes and I just haven't had a good sampling of games with him?"

And marci was also like "wow why are people unvoting" except her reasoning seemed to be the total opposite of mine in that she expects

better

content from Cakez as town and I expect more apathy about giving justification for his feelings.

Then I saw this response:

Cakez, care to put more words to your firebagel read?

She kinda gives me the same vibes as CSF but it's more egregious, like Shello said CSF has some posts that I can see some town motivation/thought process, but I'm not getting anything like that from Firebagel. Theres not really any original thought process at all, it's just following the consensus wagons again like CSF. I don't know who she is and I wish I did.

And after a little thought this actually struck me as a reasonably plausible thought process. I do think CSF and I would come across similarly in our playstyle here so the comparison is pretty decent. I can see this coming from a town mindset who just sees people asking some questions prodding about what's on their mind and doesn't know what to make of it. So I actually bumped him up to townlean for a while. The arguments against him since have made that deteriorate again though.

Brian I just get nothing from. I literally can't tell you anything he's done that's made any impression on me other than saying he voted Cakez but didn't scumread him, but I don't know what conclusion to draw from that. I don't think it's outright scummy like some people did, it's just the only

noticeable

thing.

[Firebagel]

Wait, are we actually just waiting on 'organization' that is just people squabbling over names like kids at recess picking teams?

[Firebagel]

Why does it even matter who's on the damn lists, lol

Could RNGed them, so long as they exist

VOTE: Brian Skies

[Firebagel]

That pinged me as tmi a little as well, but given the way wolfbae is portraying a persona of someone who is Very Curious And Clueless, it was only a little ping.

However, given their other crimes, such as being a super secret alt, I am willing to support this push.

VOTE: wolfbae

[Firebagel]

That pinged me as tmi a little as well, but given the way wolfbae is portraying a persona of someone who is Very Curious And Clueless, it was only a little ping.

However, given their other crimes, such as being a super secret alt, I am willing to support this push.

VOTE: wolfbae

you are so voteable

You are so hilarious XD

[Firebagel]

Why CSF? I read like 15 of her posts and mentally filed her away as town. Do you think if Cakez is scum it's probably an ez game where the scum are relatively low influence? How would you feel about the end of Day 1 if Cakez is town? That's probably the most interesting thing to me in the game right now.

im being lazy with her.
We are always different alignments.

Now that's

my

kind of scum hunting. Are you trying to copy me or something?

[Firebagel]

VOTE: Save the Dragons

This game is too easy, I'm starting to feel bad for the scum.

[Firebagel]

*evil laughter*

It's actually even more funny, because your suspicion of me has been the primary reason keeping my read on you confused rather just a scumread. XD

[Firebagel]

Why are you trying so hard

Why are you pushing experience

[Firebagel]

Why are you trying so hard

because i'm town

Lulz

That's not how you play as town, that's how you play as scum feeling pressured. I think town started finding each other quickly and scum haven't been able to get much influence this game. I was suspecting Bingle as a potential stronger scum trying to break the hold morph had as a town leader because I felt the gamestate

crack

for a bit there when he showed up to start playing, but now from the claim he's almost certainly town. So it really does seem scum has to claw and scrape desperately for any influence. Which is what you've been doing. Like, you apparently organizing the hood invention stuff is lol-sus enough, even without considering that it seems to have been largely pointless busy work.

Why are you pushing experience

4084

what's ur read on experience

3281

Funny how your 'read' there is preemptively excusing you for a townflip. This guy is LHF and a tempting push for scum who are reeling and need to get the heat away from them. That was the other reason I voted wolfbae here, but you're way more sus.

[Firebagel]

I don't think Dragons needs to feel personally under pressure at the current moment to feel pressured to action. If the team is like Brian/Dragons/Cakez/Gypyx/Firebringer they have no thread control and Dragons is the best set up to endgame. And that's not well set up at all, hence feeling the need to look like he's being useful and not someone who's gonna casually get yeeted for low activity.

[Firebagel]

I don't think Dragons needs to feel personally under pressure at the current moment to feel pressured to action. If the team is like Brian/Dragons/Cakez/Gypyx/Firebringer they have no thread control and Dragons is the best set up to endgame. And that's not well set up at all, hence feeling the need to look like he's being useful and not someone who's gonna casually get yeeted for low activity.

Firebringer is almost certainly town, you're a bit too wrapped up in your pet theory about what scum are/aren't doing and it's distorting your view of the game.

What exactly do you think is distorted other than you believe in town Firebringer and I have no particular read on him but do have a narrowing PoE?

[Firebagel]

And if we are going to talk about Klick I still find it suspicious that they went AWOL right at EoD when the Brian wagon was becoming the inevitable elim

Really dude? The slot got replaced, he's clearly just unavailable.

[Firebagel]

I don't think Dragons needs to feel personally under pressure at the current moment to feel pressured to action. If the team is like Brian/Dragons/Cakez/Gypyx/Firebringer they have no thread control and Dragons is the best set up to endgame. And that's not well set up at all, hence feeling the need to look like he's being useful and not someone who's gonna casually get yeeted for low activity.

Firebringer is almost certainly town, you're a bit too wrapped up in your pet theory about what scum are/aren't doing and it's distorting your view of the game.

What exactly do you think is distorted other than you believe in town Firebringer and I have no particular read on him but do have a narrowing PoE?

It's okay. I'm used to being ignored.

[Firebagel]

What part of the claim do you folks find towny from Firebringer?

Claim? What're we talking about here?

[Firebagel]

That's not how you play as town, that's how you play as scum feeling pressured.

guess you don't how i play

Oh, okay. Funny how I have a really good track record reading you, defending town-you from grumpy people who want to push you because don't say enough.

I think town started finding each other quickly and scum haven't been able to get much influence this game. I was suspecting Bingle as a potential stronger scum trying to break the hold morph had as a town leader because I felt the gamestate

crack

for a bit there when he showed up to start playing, but now from the claim he's almost certainly town. So it really does seem scum has to claw and scrape desperately for any influence. Which is what you've been doing. Like, you apparently organizing the hood invention stuff is lol-sus enough, even without considering that it seems to have been largely pointless busy work.

lol

Funny how your 'read' there is preemptively excusing you for a townflip. This guy is LHF and a tempting push for scum who are reeling and need to get the heat away from them. That was the other reason I voted wolfbae here, but you're way more sus.

STD is LHF and a tempting push for scum who are reeling and need to get the heat away from them

There are so many contradictions here that it's funny. I don't expect this defensiveness from you here as town either.

Are you LHF as town or tryhard?

Do you think that scum have a lack of influence this game or not?

[Firebagel]

Are you LHF as town or tryhard?

are those mutually exclusive?

Well yeah they kinda are

Do you think that scum have a lack of influence this game or not?

i don't think that just because scum didn't step in and save Brian that they don't have influence and I think getting yourself into a false sense of security like that is dangerous

Who's having a false sense of security? Me?

[Firebagel]

When did your read on Cakez flip from him town that scum marci was trying to elim? Was there a particular post that set it off?

Pedit

That is @ dann

Thanks, that's exactly what I wanted to ask too

[Firebagel]

#2 is just to give up because you dont have the WIM and if you're gonna get caught anyway you don't want to accidentally reveal too much info for town to use
- there is 1 player in the hood who is playing this way

And it's Save the Dragons. He just did that right here with me.

[Firebagel]

I don't discount the possibility he can be underwhelming as town

I do know what he'd play like as scum though, which is to show up and immediately become a solid block of ice and do the absolute minimum necessary while hoping people ignore him

Ah, you figured out who he is. You've only seen him as scum? I've only seen him as town, and "doing the absolute minimum necessary" is exactly how I'd describe that. Even when talking to his hydra partners he gives next to nothing. He's truly the epitome of "in his own world."

[Firebagel]

I've seen him as both alignments. He used to be better than that and I don't know what happened but I consider how he has played now to be essentially outing

He does have a pretty sparse iso even for him but apparently he's been notably more talkative in the hood, which I can't see, so I don't even think I could draw conclusions from it.

[Firebagel]

#2 is just to give up because you dont have the WIM and if you're gonna get caught anyway you don't want to accidentally reveal too much info for town to use
- there is 1 player in the hood who is playing this way

And it's Save the Dragons. He just did that right here with me.

i think you misunderstood what dann was trying to say if you think that

No I don't think so.

You said: "i don't think that just because scum didn't step in and save Brian that they don't have influence and I think getting yourself into a false sense of security like that is dangerous"

I asked who is supposedly having a false sense of security and you decided you didn't want to talk to me anymore. I have little doubt that scum are still hoping I can be a miselimination, and you flipping scum after getting into a protracted dispute with me trying to push you would damage the possibility of that happening. So you don't want to do it. That's what I mean by saying you don't want to reveal too much info for town to use.

[Firebagel]

Why even bother with a super sekrit alt if you're wanting to play a game you've been watching with a bunch of names you supposedly enjoy playing with?

Open mic replies.

It's funny?

[Firebagel]

I've seen him as both alignments. He used to be better than that and I don't know what happened but I consider how he has played now to be essentially outing

He does have a pretty sparse iso even for him but apparently he's been notably more talkative in the hood, which I can't see, so I don't even think I could draw conclusions from it.

No, incorrect, he's frozen solid in there too. Like sometimes bad players just roll scum.

Mmm. I suppose I'd look there after Dragons, but I feel quite sus of him and there's almost certainly not more than one scum in that hood.

Why even bother with a super sekrit alt if you're wanting to play a game you've been watching with a bunch of names you supposedly enjoy playing with?

Open mic replies.

The joke is that I call it super secret but it is not actually super secret, I'm being p obvious. I thought it would be a funny little prank~

Yeah really. Even I feel pretty confident that I have figured out who you are. How are you not getting figured out, especially by people who claim to have guessed who I am?

[Firebagel]

otherwise dann would have said there are 2 people in the hood acting that way

You are hilarious.

I'm obviously not saying

Dann

is calling you the person in the hood who is doing that, I'm using that comment as a springboard to give

my

thoughts.

[Firebagel]

because experience fits the bill better

but you are obsessed with me because i sr you

Even funnier. Your supposed scumread of me has nothing to do with me scumreading you. And if you were town and I was scum I think I wouldn't be concerned with your lone voice scumreading me either, because you can't get people to listen to you.

[Firebagel]

firebagel i was interacting you to show off to the thread how scummy your suspicion of me was. we got into a "no u" kind of argument so i wanted to stop

i don't really care if you scum read me or not, my intention is not to convince you i'm not scummy (or at most that's secondary)

You don't care, huh? Show me where you think you're arguing reasons as to why I'm scummy. I'm not seeing it, just "wow look at this scumminess" then defensiveness.

[Firebagel]

too spicy bagel

Well, I am a

fire

bagel. Got to have a little fire here and there, right?

[Firebagel]

For these to be True Thoughts coming from a town!wolfbae, it would require them to be currently thinking about their own alignment being flipped prior to dunns, in a way that simply does not make sense for them to be thinking about.

It also has a built in belief that people will come back and re-evaluate their dunn reads, based on their flip. Which I don't believe that they actually believe that people are particularly likely to do that.

Which leaves these lines feeling like their actual purpose is to sound like they are secure in the knowledge that they are going to flip town, in order to get town read.

Are you forgetting that he's in a hood that is like 85% assumed to be a form of dethy? If we flip the scum in that hood, the others are going to be assumed to be town. His PoV would be that he believes he's rather successfully wagoning the scum in the hood, and thus is likely to be shown as town sooner rather than later.

There is a built in implication to their posts that town is simply dropping the ball, not trying, needs to reset, ect.

This feels like the approach needed if they repped into a scum read slot, following a scum flip, with a scum team that did not have the thread standing to save Brian. But not really the pov that makes sense when repping in as town immediately following a day 1 scum elim.

Hey, thanks for making that point, because it's yet another aspect of why I'm scumreading Save the Dragons.

That line he fed me about having a false sense of security was just sheer manipulation in an attempt to stoke paranoia. It's not something you say to someone you think is scum, it's something you say to someone you know is town who's right and you don't want them to be.

[Firebagel]

How many super secret alts are there in this game?!?

Also why are people voting experience even more now? Is it even a good idea to flip in that hood today? Can we still resolve the accuracy of the cop shots if we start losing them already?

[Firebagel]

-Some of the thoughts stated in the post don't seem real to me. For example, Sunflower claims that they were playing pro-town by being inactive day 1 because of how many posts the game was getting. But as a townie, I think it's clearly most important to have your voice heard in thread and to engage others. I don't think townies strategize this way - intentionally posting less to help town?? That just doesn't seem like a legit defense at all.

Guess what, you think wrong. Even I have thought about making a response here and there and then decided not to bother because really there's already so many posts and it wasn't really that important and things are going fine. And Sunflower is a much more active slot than I am. Even when only fireisredsir is active.

Also, calling it "being inactive" is surely not how Sunflower phrased it and seems like throwing shade. Sunflower has over 200 posts and we're barely into Day 2. That shouldn't be

anyone's

definition of inactive.

[Firebagel]

How many super secret alts are there in this game?!?

Also why are people voting experience even more now? Is it even a good idea to flip in that hood today? Can we still resolve the accuracy of the cop shots if we start losing them already?

why are you voting for someone in the hood then

Is there actually a wagon on you? Am I being successful?

(if it is multitasking and ceph confirmed that to y'all disregard me but uhhhhhhhhh)

I may have accidentally encouraged this, FWIW. I forgot about the issue with multitasking when I included the inventors in the inventor target pools. We are compulsive, which made me assume inventions would allow multitasking, but I'm reaching out for mod confirmation rn.

Wow Bingle. You clearly need to hang out with biancospino more if you think compulsive means you must get to multitask.

I'm assuming marci did receive the invention, please say something if not?

[Firebagel]

How many super secret alts are there in this game?!?

Also why are people voting experience even more now? Is it even a good idea to flip in that hood today? Can we still resolve the accuracy of the cop shots if we start losing them already?

why are you voting for someone in the hood then

Is there actually a wagon on you? Am I being successful?

why do you not understand thing and say something unrelated

You're the one saying something unrelated, comparing one single vote on a player nobody else is interested in pushing to a large and growing wagon on a LHF slot.

Also lol at "not talking about things even you yourself have said," Mr. Kettle who dodges my questions.

[Firebagel]

I'm voting what's by far my biggest scumread early in the day, who is also a person I believe is more readablewith pressure. We never really discussed when we're flipping in the dethy, I recall you saying we want two results to align the cops? Suddenly there's a huge wagon, so it seems relevant to check whether this is actually what we're doing.

[Firebagel]

Firebagel whats the overview of ur case on dragons

Too many words bore me

Is there something in particular you're unclear about? I think I've made several points against him, it's sorta most of what I've been talking about the last couple days.

[Firebagel]

Like really if you want a super barebones summary: Dragons plays low key and indifferent as town, and that's not at all what I'm seeing here.

[Firebagel]

I can totally believe he could have not realized that everyone had the exact same role despite participating in making lists about distributing inventions, if that wasn't specifically mentioned at the same time.

I also find it pretty sus how a

certain someone

is claiming to be massively confused now just

after

experience clarified. Because that was totally a helpful clarification, even I was staring at this claim going "..... ". And I can't even see the hood.

[Firebagel]

What Gypyx townslip are we talking about? That thing from way back when she talked about the hood getting info in 344? I always thought that seemed possibly like her just thinking the hood would be told that there was no scum at some point.

However, looking back at it, it occurs to me that it could be the case that scum were given a complementary warning bit of info about the hood. It could literally be that town is warned that something good for scum happens if the hood has scum in it at a certain point; and also scum is warned that something good (like getting info) happens for town if the hood is clear of scum by then. And that was her slipping on what info was public?

[Firebagel]

I can totally believe he could have not realized that everyone had the exact same role despite participating in making lists about distributing inventions, if that wasn't specifically mentioned at the same time.

I also find it pretty sus how a

certain someone

is claiming to be massively confused now just

after

experience clarified. Because that was totally a helpful clarification, even I was staring at this claim going "..... ". And I can't even see the hood.

What do you think of Bingle's reaction to this?

Bingle's what huh? Why would it matter? He's almost certainly not scum and I've said that before so if that's why you're asking...

[Firebagel]

Firebagel's approach to you has become white noise in the thread to me.

I don't know if it helps you any that it's not being taking seriously?

It has hit the level of single-minded certainty that every single post is so obviously scummy that I no longer think they have much critical thought behind them in a way that it benefits me to absorb their opinions (and more tunneled-based thoughts).

If you want me to explain anything further let me know,
I'm happy to try to explain more if you want to discuss. I'm sassing him because he started off shading me, gives deflecting responses or just doesn't answer at all when I try to poke at his thoughts, and that just deepens my scumread. And I can get pretty sassy when I feel confident.

[Firebagel]

Why is he almost certainly not scum? Is this something you've explained?

Okay so you just think I might be clueless even though the answer (or a close enough facsimile) is right here on this page, got it

[Firebagel]

Post 4637 is the town slip. Gypyx doesn't know that Hermit has claimed a role that makes them confirmed town*.

My 4751 above is trying to figure out if you had seen the claim or not by asking for your opinion on Bingle. It was in response to the post above it but I quoted your previous post so as to not tip you off that it was related to Gypyx.

So yeah I am trying to figure out how much you know.

4099

Now who's not paying attention?

[Firebagel]

Also do you think it’s unreasonable for people to not be buying your explanation here?

Assuming you’re Town, do you feel anyone on your wagon is specifically capitalizing on your mistake to push your mis-elimination?

PEdit: @Experience

i mean, it's reasonable people doubt my explanation but not when they're misconstruing my posts and then proceeding to use that as the crux of their case. (like, sure, go ahead and say 'i don't trust experience' but it's annoying when it's like 'experience not knowing that the hood inventors were all the same = experience must be scum dumbtelling')
as for who i think are capitalising on my mistake, i'm not really sure. at this point, it seems like my wagon has either way-too-confbiased hero wannnabes or scum who know they can get away with voting me because they can hide behind the former.
the one thing tho is that really, i can't the difference so i'd be lying if i told you i could.

Whoa the writing style here sounds really different

This is what he's capable of when he actually puts his mind to things.

I maintain experience not understanding the claims in the neighborhood is a nulltell, and I regret making it a focal point of discussion. If folks want to eliminate him based on other reasons, that's fine, but, like, do it for good reasons and not NAI ones. I don't think it's impossible for his recent posting to come from him as town but shrug. I'm going to reread again.

Is it really something he's capable of though? I agree with CSF, this feels off. Mostly the first paragraph, because I don't feel like he ever expresses emotion except for feeling sorry. Saying it's "annoying" is a type of emotion I don't think I've seen from him before. And calling people "way-too-confbiased hero wannabes" is just a flat out AtE discredit attempt. (Also, it's inconsistent with the previous line implying it's okay to just not trust him as long as it's not for thinking he's trying to dumbtell).

[Firebagel]

I mean, mmm. AtE is AtE. It doesn't strictly have to be rational. But that can come from either alignment. Hate trying to read into that stuff.

That's my point though, I'm not used to AtE from him, other than feeling sorry. Being annoyed and dismissive is totally the opposite of that. If he's town I think he's likely to just apologize for the confusion, not be upset that people are scumreading him for missing something. It's giving me vibes that he really did miss it but is scum and thus annoyed that he's being scumread for it because it's truly something he missed, not something he's faking.

UNVOTE:

On another note, are we trying to coordinate the investigations onto a particular target like CSF or morph? We should address that.

[Firebagel]

When did you realize we were masons?

When you told me you were masons lol

Who is "you"? Are you referring to Crab's post claiming to be confirmed town? If so what made you think that was on the level rather than a joke?

[Firebagel]

Gypyx, please don't ignore me!

When did you realize we were masons?

When you told me you were masons lol

Who is "you"? Are you referring to Crab's post claiming to be confirmed town? If so what made you think that was on the level rather than a joke?

[Firebagel]

Gypyx, please don't ignore me!

When did you realize we were masons?

When you told me you were masons lol

Who is "you"? Are you referring to Crab's post claiming to be confirmed town? If so what made you think that was on the level rather than a joke?

oh right um sorry

well, it was way before that, i've seen the whole discussion around me not knowing that potentially being a townslip

So you're saying you saw HC's claim, then forgot about it when you posted about them leaning town? Then have been seeing people call that a potential townslip and not said anything, continuing to let people think you never saw it in the first place with posts implying that such as 4993 and 4996?

VOTE: Gypyx

[Firebagel]

Gypyx, please don't ignore me!

When did you realize we were masons?

When you told me you were masons lol

Who is "you"? Are you referring to Crab's post claiming to be confirmed town? If so what made you think that was on the level rather than a joke?

oh right um sorry

well, it was way before that, i've seen the whole discussion around me not knowing that potentially being a townslip

So you're saying you saw HC's claim, then forgot about it when you posted about them leaning town? Then have been seeing people call that a potential townslip and not said anything, continuing to let people think you never saw it in the first place with posts implying that such as 4993 and 4996?

VOTE: Gypyx

Yeah um, sure you've caught me whatever

i didn't see HC's claim when i said i was leaning town on them, that much should be obvious

Uh huh, then might I inquire what prompted this post? Because posting in Mafia Discussion bringing up the best friend role sure suggests it was on your mind. Then showing up in game three hours later posting like you don't know HC claimed that role is pretty wtf.

[Firebagel]

Heck with you guys, there's nothing wrong with my reasoning on Gypyx. Lacking the vital bit of information about her just having been in a game with best friends (or rather more precisely, town informed neighbors) does not make my logic dumb or bad and I don't appreciate the smear attempts.

[Firebagel]

5311 and 5358 are totally smears, just 'cause there's a townread in there doesn't also make it a smear to go "wow that's so dumb it might be towny"

[Firebagel]

5311 and 5358 are totally smears, just 'cause there's a townread in there doesn't also make it a smear to go "wow that's so dumb it might be towny"

I do think that 5052 relies on a misreading of 5038.

But I never said that the Best Friends post in Mafia Discussions was dumb. Just that it makes you town for making it.

Well 5052 is me prodding at her for information still, trying to get her to be more specific without tipping her off yet that it's about the Mafia Discussion post that I'd seen. So if you're thinking I'm misreading her in thinking that she was saying she forgot or something, that's not what the point was, that isn't what I was thinking. That was a suggestion and pressure to be clear that she claims not to have seen the claim when it was made, which was inconsistent with her seemingly randomly bringing the role up in the discussion thread, hence my dropping that info afterwards to ask why it was on her mind if not because of this game.

[Firebagel]

I don't understand the marci fruit stealing thing. How does her fruit getting stolen also tell her that invention stuff was stolen? And it wasn't clear whether that was the invention she received or the one she was trying to give out?

I have no intention of voting Sunflower and the amount of people expressing similar opinions now, when morph is gone, bothers me. Y'all are more talkative than me, where was your disagreement yesterday? Same for the newfound willingness to suspect Dragons. Gypyx/Dragons especially, feels really theatery.

[Firebagel]

I don't understand the marci fruit stealing thing. How does her fruit getting stolen also tell her that invention stuff was stolen? And it wasn't clear whether that was the invention she received or the one she was trying to give out?

I have no intention of voting Sunflower and the amount of people expressing similar opinions now, when morph is gone, bothers me. Y'all are more talkative than me, where was your disagreement yesterday? Same for the newfound willingness to suspect Dragons. Gypyx/Dragons especially, feels really theatery.

Ok why are you townreading sunflower

Mostly because I think Dragons is scummy. Then there was this thought. I vibe with that too, all the offhand references to things half of us are totally clueless to really can make it harder to follow what's going on. And now petapan's descriptions of their hood posting boost the townread some more.

[Firebagel]

I don't understand the marci fruit stealing thing. How does her fruit getting stolen also tell her that invention stuff was stolen? And it wasn't clear whether that was the invention she received or the one she was trying to give out?

I have no intention of voting Sunflower and the amount of people expressing similar opinions now, when morph is gone, bothers me. Y'all are more talkative than me, where was your disagreement yesterday? Same for the newfound willingness to suspect Dragons. Gypyx/Dragons especially, feels really theatery.

Anything else of interest to talk about?

What's with all the Spiffeh townreads anyway? I haven't gone back to read all that d1 stuff but it seems like people don't think it's possible for him to have bussed Brian and that seems dangerous to me. Scum can absolutely win games despite losing a member d1 through strong wagon positioning, and this feels very much like a scenario where that could've happened.

[Firebagel]

I don't understand the marci fruit stealing thing. How does her fruit getting stolen also tell her that invention stuff was stolen? And it wasn't clear whether that was the invention she received or the one she was trying to give out?

I have no intention of voting Sunflower and the amount of people expressing similar opinions now, when morph is gone, bothers me. Y'all are more talkative than me, where was your disagreement yesterday? Same for the newfound willingness to suspect Dragons. Gypyx/Dragons especially, feels really theatery.

This sunflower thing is really odd to me -> you don't want to vote sunflower, but you're casting suspicion at the people who agree with you instead of the people voting them?

Why's that odd? If Sunflower is town do you really think all the mafia are just going to line up to vote there, with how strongly morph indicated wanting to flip Sunflower making it practically a foregone conclusion?

[Firebagel]

Did you receive a cop shot on night 1? If so, who did you target and what was the result?

I don't see any reason to give out information on that matter right now.

[Firebagel]

We’re trying to calibrate the shots is the reason.

Gee, from what I was reading it seemed like everyone had basically given up on getting any use out of them (and I don't understand why). Scum are presumed to have a bus driver, remember? And possibly a roleblocker if Firebringer is to be believed. I don't think giving them info on how to expect further actions to be used is a great idea. In contrast, how does having that info NOW help anything? It needs at least two nights' info from the same source to possibly know the reliability, right? It's not like I'm not going to be here later to talk about it.

(side note, if I'm not here later to talk about it because scum shot me out of fear of my incredible info on a cop shot of unknown reliability or that I actually have a better power and didn't even use it, I will consider that the most hilarious win possible )

[Firebagel]

From its observations of you, you came out swinging to save your slot which it feels ike you wrote about from a position of being afraid if you didn't you would die, but in recent times you have somewhat put the brakes on. You indicate in a post that you are undcertain with your reads, which it gets but it doesn't feel like uncertainty it feels like a stepback to keep the current pace of the game and not shift it too much. It feels intentional.

With that in mind, can you explain why you feel so uncertain?

FWIW, I've seen him a couple of times before in games he replaced into town slots, and coming in swinging to try to save things is a pretty similar trajectory to those. One of those games I think his slot was pretty heavily suspected when he came in, and one of them wasn't (and I credit him with likely saving that game with that swinging).

[Firebagel]

Also we flipped the scum bus driver, so they don’t have one anymore. Unless you are trying to say that there is a backup somewhere, in which case this is a very different conversation

Ah, right, the role was that way around. Still, the fact that there was a backup on the scumflip we do have suggests that maybe there is a backup bus driver too. They might all be backups of some other role. The bus driver role seems likely to be significant to the "shell game" aspect of the setup, given the whole concept of moving things around unpredictably.

[Firebagel]

We’re trying to calibrate the shots is the reason.

Gee, from what I was reading it seemed like everyone had basically given up on getting any use out of them (and I don't understand why). Scum are presumed to have a bus driver, remember? And possibly a roleblocker if Firebringer is to be believed. I don't think giving them info on how to expect further actions to be used is a great idea. In contrast, how does having that info NOW help anything? It needs at least two nights' info from the same source to possibly know the reliability, right? It's not like I'm not going to be here later to talk about it.

(side note, if I'm not here later to talk about it because scum shot me out of fear of my incredible info on a cop shot of unknown reliability or that I actually have a better power and didn't even use it, I will consider that the most hilarious win possible )

To be clear, no one is asking you to claim a cop shot you may or may not have just gotten.

You were being asked about a night 2 cop shot, which should presumably already be used. So it's kinda too late for them to mess with it?

No no, I understand what's being asked, just not why. Literally only one other inventor shot even got a result last night so there isn't exactly a great framework here, and how exactly would comparing them solve it better now even if we had five results? We have players who investigate as known alignments so that provides instantaneous feedback. To use the one result that we have as an example, it was targeted at CSF and got an innocent. Assuming it wasn't redirected or lied about, it has to be either Naive or Inverse because that's wrong. Targeting the same inventor's invention at a known innocent next should clear up which it was because Naive will still give an innocent but Inverse will make the innocent look guilty. Am I missing something about why all the other inventions matter?

[Firebagel]

Wow guys, I thought it was a given that the cop shots used last night were on 'calibration' targets so yes, I'll confirm that if I used it, it was a calibration shot. I did kinda make a point of having the desired targeting clarified in the game D2 y'know.

I like Sunflower even more now after seeing fireisredsir come up with some thoughts that I also had.

[Firebagel]

Firebagel can easily be scum posturing around a sunflower town flip

Sure, feel free to think that I can handle it. After all... I have a sword:

Spoiler:

[Firebagel]

have u played against scum me.
i don't remember u have ever

how quickly you forget the fire buddies :c

dannflor remembers

Pepperidge Farm remembers! XD

But yeah, I both agree with Firebringer that marathons are likely not a great comparison to regular games ( ) and like that fireisredsir also thought to make that comparison.

[Firebagel]

Oblivions arguments trying to link the experience elimination with the Sunflower elimination using Morph feel very scummy to me

no u

I think it had a great argument that largely aligns with how I'm feeling about the gamestate (though I don't feel the same level of doom and gloom, I still think we're in a decent place we're just getting stuck in the mud)

[Firebagel]

VOTE: SirCakez

[Firebagel]

It's occurred to me that if the idea of a traitor in the hood is accurate, the good thing for Mafia for the hood traitor living might literally just be the traitor getting full groupscum status/not getting endgamed if they're the last left. As a balance against us just ignoring the hood, y'know.

[Firebagel]

Firebringer, what sort of info was your role supposed to give you with that action?

[Firebagel]

Firebringer, what sort of info was your role supposed to give you with that action?

i just gave u the info i got from my action.

Yeah but that's not what I asked. Were you expecting to get what's basically an announcing tracker action when you sent that action in?

[Firebagel]

Firebringer, what sort of info was your role supposed to give you with that action?

i just gave u the info i got from my action.

Yeah but that's not what I asked. Were you expecting to get what's basically an announcing tracker action when you sent that action in?

what....

ofc i expect wolfbae to know i targeted him. And that i was basically checking to see who he targeted. He doesn't know i tracked him he just knows a fortune teller visited him

Bruh

Did you or did you not know what the action does before sending it? It's not a hard question.

[Firebagel]

firebagel i can't tell if ur trolling or not reading

You said you don't remember why you decided to target wolfbae. Dunnstral is attesting to having advised you to use your action on someone outside the dethy hood. It sounds like you knew what it does.

So how the heck is it useful information to find out who an inventor gave a cop shot to?? Why would you do that? You know what they're almost certainly doing and it's probably going to be outright claimed by them and confirmed by the target. You could be trying to find someone making a night kill and you did this instead. Like wtf man. I guess it being delayed info makes it slightly less likely to be a scum role than if it was for the current night, but the way you used it feels like you wanted to make a show of confirming your action rather than be useful.

[Firebagel]

But Cakez said Dunn is obviously town!

Dunn's level of engagement and scumhunting this game has felt beyond what I've seen him pull off as scum in the past.

u wot m8

ok that sounded kind of dumb but the point is he feels like town!Dunn fairly transparently to me

Cakez how confident do you feel about being able to read Dunnstral?

[Firebagel]

Kind of weird to bring up a post from 3800 posts ago when he more recently (like, today) has said he does not townread him anymore?

I was doing some reading during the night and came across that and thought it was interesting. I wanna hear more about Cakez's expertise at reading Dunn because that confidence felt very handwaving a read rather than having reasons for it.

[Firebagel]

The worst part for it is if Wolfbae was someone it could townread confidently it would be begging to work with them at this point to come to consensus and solve, because the feelings of alienation are strong within it too.

The issue is it doesn't have a townread on Wolfbae at all so it's like "the player saying this could also be scum trying to capitalize on that feeling too?"

Which sucks.

I have a confident townread on wolfbae, if that helps. There was some subtle stuff going on yesterday that I just don't think scum even thinks to do, let alone does.

[Firebagel]

It's probably meaningless

Yeah probably

If I had really cool info I would've been all over the place waving it around by now, trust me XD

I guess I can confirm I used both the cop shots, and I cannot yet ascertain whether they're reliable or useless. Leaning towards the latter but I'll let you know if that changes.

[Firebagel]

Firebagel resurrecting a 4000-post-old Cakez post from Day 1 where he townreads Dunn as a means to subtly discredit his read there is scummiest thing I have read this game lmao

I w0t m8?

I want Cakez to address my question there, I haven't said anything about why yet. So I repeat: Cakez how confident do you feel about being able to read Dunnstral?

[Firebagel]

VOTE: marci

Yeah, fair enough STD.

I'm taking this as permission to pursue my marci scumread.

Also, for what it's worth "marci is town because marci was hesitant about revealing the dethy" is fucking bullshit because scum is usually ALSO INCREDIBLY HESITANT ABOUT OUTING ROLES.

Wasn't it the other way around? People were townreading marci for blurting stuff about it out? None of these townreads of her have ever quite clicked in my head including the stuff about her being town because of fruit being stolen (I asked for clarification on that and I never got any and you guys seem to be walking that back?)

[Firebagel]

Dunn, why did you claim your invention now?

[Firebagel]

Because the masons think I am scum

So? You're like, not even getting seriously considered. You couldn't have been any more subtle about it? There's supposed to be a Thief running around and you just tell them what and where to go to steal something actually useful at the first sign of adversity? Like "I have a confirmable action and DE knows what it is" maybe?

[Firebagel]

Brushed aside how?

[Firebagel]

Guys, neither of you is scum, it's Dragons

[Firebagel]

Ugh you guys are gonna make me write a case aren't you

[Firebagel]

Like, these posts just scream "Dragons is scum":

looking at marci's posts in the hood

she apologies for leaking information but says that she thinks that town should know. +marci:traitor / +marci:town / -marci:groupscum

she says that she's apprehensive because we're all singing kumbaya in the hood, knowing there's most likely a scum among us. seems genuine so +marci:town.

skimming further i talked myself into a marci townread.

im so fucking confused.

fuck im just scared of being wrong

i don't want to vote in the hood today. if we can get scum in the hood that would be good but my fear of getting it wrong is preventing me from taking that risk

VOTE: marci

Gods I hope this is right

This is not how he acts as town. He'll just give you his damn opinion and if he doesn't have one he won't. This is performative hand-wringing trying to lay out a lovely sequence of thoughts to make himself look better. Worrying about being wrong is not something you're gonna find him publicly doing as town like this.

[Firebagel]

also think theres a balance from going all out and try harding in a game to solve it and push your ideas forward and not caring about the outcome of the game and ur shifting hard between the two.

push your ideas forward, realize ur not going to always get what u want/be right, and enjoy the shitfest the game is for what it is, a chaos induced screaming match

^ as somebody who has also had to deal with similar issues of how to deal with things going wrong in Mafia, I endorse this post

[Firebagel]

I've compiled a list of what seems to be reasonably relevant times Dragons has talked about being scared. Not only does he say that he's scared more as Mafia, I believe there's a noticable trend where he uses it as a deflection as Mafia in a way that enables him to not have his own opinion and spread doubt. Apologies for the formatting but most of the threads are locked so I can't direct quote.

MAFIA

: viewtopic.php?p=14062038#p14062038

im gutted

im scared to vote anyone

(this was in ELO after town had cast wrong votes and he was just waiting for Black to show up to coordinate a hammer so ymmv on how relevant it is)

MAFIA

: viewtopic.php?p=13788534#p13788534
viewtopic.php?p=13840404#p13840404

I am smeargle.

I have sketches. I used one to pick up ice beam from Ranger n1 which I've never found helpful and/or mostly forgot about and/or was fainted. I have one more sketch I think.

Popcorn to titus

I don't know what to do. It is probably just FL here but I'm scared. I just don't think it's Chandra and don't think it's wheme?

(it's 'probably' his teammate but he doesn't know what to do, lol)

TOWN

: viewtopic.php?p=13735028#p13735028
viewtopic.php?p=13727154#p13727154

i just think it's lld and kawaii only i just am scared i'm wrong

(he has an opinion here, he's just expressing doubt in it and this is literally in ELO so actually a pretty good time to have some doubt)

TOWN

: viewtopic.php?t=90239
viewtopic.php?p=13601465#p13601465

I'm scared I am dancing with a scum

(I'd call this idle commentary rather than serious concern about what to do)

TOWN

: viewtopic.php?t=89363
viewtopic.php?p=13397306#p13397306

I'm scared tho

(this immediately follows a vote, again it's him having an opinion)

MAFIA

: viewtopic.php?p=13383706#p13383706
viewtopic.php?p=13369177#p13369177

went for a drive with my fiance which helped with my headspace

ari
dats
irrelephant
menalque
skitter

i dunno the only person i think it could be is menalque but i admit i haven't fully processed datisi's town case

but what if it's datisi and menalque does scum!datisi try to get scum!menalque into the coalition if he's already in it? probably not so maybe it's not both

im scared that there's two scum in the coalition i didn't really think about that i thought one on one off but what if it's not simple i mean it could just be nk15 or malakittens but since it's not both i dunno what to think. some people scumreading me are town and i don't like that but i need to get over it

this post sucks

ari - i don't know. i mean i think it's genuine i think there's something about her posts that i just *believe* you know. i get the paranoia though.

datisi started off as a scumread for me but maybe i was wrong about it but maybe my gut was onto something there. i don't know, i need to read datisi again, but i remember really liking a lot of his posts

irrelephant i just don't think is scum. there's a small tiny teensy weensy part of me that is like "what if they're scum trying to pocket you" but i guess i don't really see the point so i'm not really indulging this theory

menalque suspects me for reasons that in my opinion are weird or NAI so i don't know it's hard for me to ignore that but i should probably get over it like i said and see what else this slot contains. i still think the entrance was potential performative scum entrance but i dunno about other stuff

i don't really see skitter as scum but i don't know this seems kind of different from the go game skitter seems to have more energy and thread presence but maybe that's because the go game was a large and it's easier to get lost. also i knew she was scum because i was traitor so i probably didn't analyze her posting as much as i could have. arg i don't have a good reason to sr skitter though; i've really liked her posts.

last time i did this game mode the coalition succeeded and had me on it, just sayin

(more obfuscating "I don't know what to think")

MAFIA

: viewtopic.php?p=13121596#p13121596
viewtopic.php?p=13113912#p13113912

VOTE: firebringer and SS

All this talk about noraa potentially being scums target makes me doubt S_s. Both S_s and tictac pushed our group towards noraa and I went along with it because I was scared we'd lose loki or koba or something. I have a feeling S_S may have done it to help push our hood towards noraa as scums agenda. I'm not sure about firebringer but the fact that he didnt leave and barfed all over koba who is clearly town seems desperate. Plus I'm still not over the parachute for spamton. I think there's definitely scum in that pairing.

Scum are: S_S, firebringer, spamton, maybe enchant toog and mathblade though all three of those look better this phase so maybe not.

Null are tictac mama ru MT

I think I tr everyone else tho maybe I'm a little worried about dwlee.

I want to hear more from wheme in our pt

(using being scared as retroactive justification for helping with a townie death he didn't want to be blamed for)

MAFIA

: viewtopic.php?p=12807399#p12807399
viewtopic.php?p=12799332#p12799332

i mean i still like how the other corners approached the game much better than no lim did and my interaction with i believe just koba didn't help their case in my pov

but y'all have got me scared to even move now i didn't and honestly still don't realize how we're at ELO

(straight up lack of opinion)


Am I the only one seeing this alignment trend in how he presents being scared? I could probably pull in some more examples that don't literally use the word scared if not. "Woe is me, this is confusing, I'm so scared to be wrong so what do I do" vs. "I think this but I'm scared I'm wrong." I think the pattern across those posts I quoted shows the former mindset- waffling over what to do before 'reluctantly' going to vote marci against his own prior thoughts.

[Firebagel]

Firebagel resurrecting a 4000-post-old Cakez post from Day 1 where he townreads Dunn as a means to subtly discredit his read there is scummiest thing I have read this game lmao

I w0t m8?

I want Cakez to address my question there, I haven't said anything about why yet. So I repeat: Cakez how confident do you feel about being able to read Dunnstral?

Not that confident? I don't know, this question seems very pointless to me. I don't like that you're stuck up on an absolutely ancient post I made day one.

You expressed a very confident read on Dunnstral as if you felt that you're good at reading him. I found a past example of you expressing inability to read him so I was wondering what changed since then that makes you feel confident in reading him. Now you're just backing off the confidence you displayed earlier in the game and I'm not sure how I feel about that.

[Firebagel]

I unfortunately think I do have to die this game sooner than later so all of the scumfucks pushing me have to eat crow

Who are the scumfucks pushing you?

Mainly Dann and Dunn I feel pretty strongly are scum
StD and DE70 are slots I'm iffy on

Obviously not everyone pushing me is scum but I would eat my socks if there wasn't at least one-two scum in those four

Oh yeah Firebagel is definitely in this pool too

Are you saying that me asking you a question about your read confidence is pushing you?

[Firebagel]

this is meta is so fake

i often portray confidence, but a lot of the time i show hesitance. this game reminds me of when I had FA dead to rights and even included the 4 person scum in my 5 person POE, but instead of going for it and potentially altering the course of the game, i just hesitated until scum made the first move. i feel the same about marci. i'm so scared about being wrong that i didn't want to vote there until i got fed up with the game state.

i know the feeling that will arise if we kill marci and she's not scum. it's a shitty feeling and i want to avoid it.

viewtopic.php?p=13737510&f=163&t=90851& ... #p13737510

Believe it or not, that Team Mafia game is something I've looked at and considered in my read of you and is a significant factor in why I haven't just been on a constant tunnel on you all game. Your activity there was quite high in comparison to what I've seen from you elsewhere, so I acknowledge the possibility that some games just bring out a different side and that brings a confounding factor into it. Still, I think there's a difference in the way you post there vs. the way you post here that can be seen just by scrolling through your ISOs.

Where in that game did you talk about being hesitant to act on your reads?

[Firebagel]

Am I the only one seeing this alignment trend in how he presents being scared? I could probably pull in some more examples that don't literally use the word scared if not. "Woe is me, this is confusing, I'm so scared to be wrong so what do I do" vs. "I think this but I'm scared I'm wrong." I think the pattern across those posts I quoted shows the former mindset- waffling over what to do before 'reluctantly' going to vote marci against his own prior thoughts.

did u literally grab posts where i said the word "scared"

Yes, I think that's obvious. It's a decent enough starting point for my argument. Your post talking about being scared here was literally what set off all my scum-pings again. I guess I coulda just settled for replying with "hi marci" because that was just straight-up a marci post. She talks about being scared a lot. You don't.

and show several examples of how i say it as both mafia and town

and are somehow using to suggest that it's AI when i use the word "scared"

"it's something he does as either alignment, but i just have more examples of him doing it as mafia, hyuk hyuk! he has 3/10ths chance of being town and a 7/10ths chance of being scum because that's how it works when someone does something demonstrably as both alignments!"

What, you want me to leave out the town examples? If I was trying to unfairly characterize your use of that word I could've and probably nobody would bother doing their own search. And if they did, I could argue that those were just clearly not the same sort of thing.

You're not actually addressing the substance of my argument here though, you're just grabbing numbers and waving them around like they're my argument. I explained what I thought of the

way

you express yourself and how it seems to differ based on your alignment.

[Firebagel]

Why is gypyx town again?

She and Luke-slot backslid in my reads toDay

I think of the PoE list you provided earlier, Firebagel is the most likely to be scum.

You keep trying to make these comments about me being scummy and I don't think I've heard you explain why you think that.

[Firebagel]

I’ve been doing some NKA *gasps*

And all three had cakeboy low (Pooky had fire in townleans but the other two had him lower), oblivion low, gypyx low, bagel low.

This feels important.

????

I must be misreading this somehow because it sounds like you're trying to say that all three of the nightkilled players were scumreading Cakez, Oblivion, Gypyx, and myself. And I don't even need to go look up their last reads to know that's definitely off. morph was definitely townreading Oblivion and I (with the chance of me being a deepwolf, lol, never gonna forget

that

). Pooky had me as a null/town, and Shello was more null/scum on me.

[Firebagel]

Dunn who did you send your earlier inventions to? And why did that claim necessitate knowing who we were targetting with fruit?

OK so I need to target the same person as somebody else to give it to them. I was on Marci and Dragoneater copped Marci and claimed in thread which is the reason I knew they got it.

And that is the gimmick with our hood, I'm trying to avoid your targets because you are compulsive and can't use the invention. And mafia wants to know your targets to steal fruit. Mafia are in the hood so we can't coordinate. SirCakez role has scum utility. The flipped bus driver was a double targeter.

*suddenly envisioning scum role that hands out tracker inventions to town who target the same person*

lol probably not but wtf even is this game, there's so many moving pieces and they almost all seem so pointless

[Firebagel]

I mean

To argue that you're not underwhelming you'd have to prove you were doing stuff

Instead you ranted about how you can't because the game is big and then go on to make a similar incredulous claim that Luke made too: that you are somehow happy with the game state so you don't really need to do anything.

Luke did things like attack morph, attack cakez when momentum was on Brian, and attack wolfbae. These things kinda read as scum trying to look busy with half hearted pushes so that when he gets caught for being passive he can be like "yeah I am, but what about these?"

If you want, you can count the cakez attack as a potential attempt to save Brian. The morph attack in hindsight was wrong (mea culpa too tho) and the wolfbae attack could be attempting to distract from the true scum in the hood (marci!scum scenario).

The game is going well for you and you have WIM because you're not town and don't understand the town perspective. Yeah Brian was killed, but then we have 2 mislims and almost no information about anything.

People can look at my play around experience and Sunflower but no one has, so even whatever little info we have isn't being used.

Instead people are nodding along to a meta argument that is fallacious besides being a shitty meta argument.

I mean. What if I say I'm scared when I'm mafia because I'm emulating the confusion I often I feel as town? How can you tell?

Dunnstral is a better player than that. I do not believe for a second he is convinced by one shitty meta argument from someone who is actively playing anti town. I don't believe you would believe it either.

Wait do you think that DE, Dunnstral and I are all scum together??? And we just all decided to amplify this argument about you?

I assume you mean me by "someone who is actively playing anti town" anyway. Not that I know what you mean by that- I've been pretty much correct about everything the flips have shown so far, townreading the NKed town and voting out scum but not town (although I would have been on the experience wagon if the timing had been different).

[Firebagel]

and in conclusion std and wolfbae have now crossed a threshold of "i think they really believe in themselves and their reads" that marci has yet to cross

How did marci go from "WANTS TO BE RIGHT SO BAD" to not having crossed the threshold of really believing because Dragons got upset in the meanwhile? Also why do you think Firebringer is town?

[Firebagel]

7596 (firebagel) i sort of both agree and disagree with you. i dont think voicing the fact that ur scared is scummy,

That's okay because that's not the argument I'm making.

but his progression is just pretty bad. i know my impression on std is that he just generally doesnt care about how hes viewed as town

Yes. Exactly. All this clapback he's giving to scumreads doesn't do anything to mitigate mine.

and like i swear i wasn't reminded of oblivion only because of the prod but like... im lowkey back to susing it. so inactive maybe its just letting me, peta, std, cakez fight for our lives out in the open here while it sits back.
what do we think about voting here?

No.

[Firebagel]

Instead of coming up with a lie that will prove her wrong or giving town help, she's decided to hold the results hostage for ???? reasons hoping people will just give up and forget about them

Hi in what way does knowing more details about the cop results help

town

right now? Other than with their own personal curiosity? Someone explain that to me satisfactorily and we'll talk results.

I feel like that is pretty scummy and people aren't giving it enough thought.

The push against me is another attempt to get a mislim on me for some reason. Last time her strawmanning didn't stick so she decided to go with meta and call something I've done as either alignment as scummy just because I guess I said scared more and some people pushed this shitty theory without giving their own additional analysis (I think dunn just posted my progression and I guess hasn't played with me enough to suggest that I might be unpredictable and impulsive. Dragoneater didn't vote me but nodded along. Dann voted me for a bit but also talked and gave some reasons. Wolfbae is in space right now and penguin is in the universe beyond space)

But nothing in game suggests I'm scum, except my clear hesitation on marci who is not guaranteed to be town for mech reasons that I've had for a while now. Why doesn't firebagel think it could be marci or wolfbae?

Being in space is cool

"nothing in game suggests I'm scum" is such a wtf statement

Anyone in game could be scum, even the claimed masons

It's literally a game about trying to figure out who is scum. In a vacuum, you're in a subgroup that is expected to contain a scum so you have a higher than rand chance to be scum, even if we factor in some modest chance of there not actually being scum in the hood.

I've already said I've basically ruled out wolfbae scum and I can go into more depth on that if need be but I've clearly been trying to think about marci. I've repeatedly asked people to explain why they're townreading her/their mech argument for her being town. Again, if I weren't considering any possibility of the scum being there I'd have just been after you this whole time.

[Firebagel]

Wow my top scum read flipped town and I'm less confident? Shocker. I've already had the discussion today about why my Dunn read shifted so go read that.

I feel like you're missing the point. It's not about how confident you feel now, it's about how confident you felt

then

.

You are very very very obviously setting up a vote on me with this stupid argument you're making so yes.

I'm not though, I'm pretty on the fence about whether I'd want to flip you today, for reasons. The bookie likely being on you, for instance (unless you

are

the bookie ). You're certainly in my PoE still.

[Firebagel]

I honestly do not have a good take on Marci like at all, since that's the other hot topic. I mean I would obviously lim her over me but I wouldn't be able to say I felt good about it. Or bad either really. Idk lol fuck this game

Might be the towniest post you've made yet

[Firebagel]

Ok fr fr mod powers are a blessing and a curse

I mean I was able to get quotes easily especially cuz im on mobile

But then I almost posted the below into that game which would have been hella awkward

Anyway, I present to you where I was scared as town but used different words/showed it in my actions.

But see, that's my point. I'm not arguing that you wouldn't be scared to be wrong as town. Find me someone who never is scared to be wrong and I'll find you someone who... uh, probably isn't very pleasant to play with. I'm saying you appear to express it differently than when you're scum making a show of being scared.

...

My confidence on FA was pretty high at that point

But still I almost fucking town at the end and just didn't...vote...FA...when I wish I just had

Is there any possible of you getting off your meta high horse and looking at more than one thing that indicates I behave a certain way regardless of alignment?

Not sure what you mean, I've already made at least one other meta argument about how I see your play and you didn't like that either.

[Firebagel]

I'll take "things that make you go hmmm" for 500, Alex

Not only does he say that he's scared more as Mafia

I suppose I haven't cared to look at the words you use to describe my play in each situation other than rolling my eyes at what you consider me having an opinion or not

Well that's gonna make it kinda hard for us to talk to each other isn't it? I came at you with a lot of rolled eyes earlier in the game and it wasn't productive. I think I'm being much more reasoned with my argument here and yet I'm still getting the same dismissive angry tone in response.

[Firebagel]

I'll come back to that wall post later

Wait do you think that DE, Dunnstral and I are all scum together??? And we just all decided to amplify this argument about you?

I assume you mean me by "someone who is actively playing anti town" anyway. Not that I know what you mean by that- I've been pretty much correct about everything the flips have shown so far, townreading the NKed town and voting out scum but not town (although I would have been on the experience wagon if the timing had been different).

It's a shitty argument. I don't believe people can honestly look at the meta case and come out with a legit scum read on me
[/quote]

So you do think that DE, Dunnstral, and I are teamed then. And I guess marci too. And even Dannflor?

Or that town doesn't look at things honestly and give legit scum reads I guess.

[Firebagel]

Ugh, quote fail, I'm really wearing down

I'll come back to that wall post later

Wait do you think that DE, Dunnstral and I are all scum together??? And we just all decided to amplify this argument about you?

I assume you mean me by "someone who is actively playing anti town" anyway. Not that I know what you mean by that- I've been pretty much correct about everything the flips have shown so far, townreading the NKed town and voting out scum but not town (although I would have been on the experience wagon if the timing had been different).

It's a shitty argument. I don't believe people can honestly look at the meta case and come out with a legit scum read on me

So you do think that DE, Dunnstral, and I are teamed then. And I guess marci too. And even Dannflor?

Or that town doesn't look at things honestly and give legit scum reads I guess.

[Firebagel]

I'm a fan of this wagon if it wasn't obvious
I have good gut vibes on it and I also think the way multiple people came together finding Firebagel scummy for different reasons is a sign that it is not being scum pushed

What 'different reasons'? I don't think you or Firebringer even gave any.

[Firebagel]

Firebagel, can I get you to expand on your thoughts from that team mafia game and STD as well as a tiered list on where you stand on the game?

Well I suggested scrolling through the respective ISOs for a reason. Maybe other people don't see what I see. It'd give more oomph if other people picked up on things without me needing to try to explain them- this is a significant weakness of mine because charisma is my dump stat.

As far as like a readlist goes, eh...

Firebagel: bagel
Hermit Crab: mason
Bingle: mason
wolfbae: town
Oblivion: town
Cat Scratch Fever: slight +town from play, significant +town from miller claim since I think scum would have to be

very

informed of the setup to fakeclaim that
Dannflor: kinda town mostly from gamestate I think?
DragonEater70: townlean from Luke's play still
marcistar: if Dragons isn't scum I guess she is, I've had some reservations but he's just so much scummier
Dunnstral: confusion mostly but having a townier moment right now
PenguinPower: oh yeah I keep forgetting he's in this game, probably no reason to push him right now even though those small arguments for why he's town that people have been made are pretty small
Gypyx: I wish Oblivion would explain the townread, she's just a big SHRUG to me
Spiffeh:

Spoiler:

SirCakez: kinda scummy
Firebringer: maybe scum
Save The Dragons: uh

[Firebagel]

Hi in what way does knowing more details about the cop results help town right now? Other than with their own personal curiosity? Someone explain that to me satisfactorily and we'll talk results.

it would help us narrow down sanities and while we probably can't get anything conclusive yet there's a chance it could be helpful by the end of the game

and there is always the chance of you getting vigged, limmed today, or i mean even night killed if you're town (stranger things have happened)

there isn't a *benefit* to keeping it secret and while there might not be a lot of benefit to sharing it, there is strictly more benefit to sharing than keeping it secret and risking the information being forever lost

You think there might be more than one vig? We already lost one. And like, shooting me over a lack of giving exact information is precisely how you never get it so even if there was, uh. And like I said, if mafia wanna nightkill me, a potential miselimination, just to stop me from giving details of investigation info that I said is likely a useless investigation invention because I got the same result both times... uh, that's fugging hilarious.

I think there

is

potential benefit to keeping it secretive for now because that makes it harder for scum to mess with future investigations. Knowing what's already occurred helps them figure out what to expect to happen in the future. If they actually have a backup bus driver, all this gets a lot more questionable (the results don't come with a name attached so no way of knowing if there was a redirect). We're not piecing together anything conclusive today, if ever- most of the results are missing or behind due to the in-hood invention dispensing N1. Maybe it's the way it's formatted but looking at that attempt to compile data tells me no more than any of you even with the extra info.

[Firebagel]

Think one-liners vs. long explanations

[Firebagel]

That seems like something you could easily fact check versus other games, did you?

I've primarily been going with my own experience playing with him, plus supplemental material that I've mentioned.

[Firebagel]

ultimately it’s just kinda selfish play firebagel

Maybe objectively there is only a one or 2% wind rate difference between you sharing the results or not but psychologically and emotionally. I think town gets a lot out of well working together and this town needs more vectors of town working together, not working against each other so fire bagel I think it’s good for you to share the results even if you don’t think it matters that much or you even think it’s better to keep it safe because town loses games through one too many selfish plays.

Also, sorry if this post doesn’t make sense, I’m using voice to text

Hey! No fair guilt tripping!

Like one obvious benefit is that some people scum reading you might trust you more if you share the results

I'm used to being mistrusted

I guess this might be a bad time to be a distraction though, hm.

If you (general) think I'm not constantly thinking about how much information to give out, you don't really understand how I play. Not giving it out is default.

How's about I mention I have a check on Cakez and so I've been rather on the fence about whether flipping him here is more or less useful? I'm about ready to vote Firebringer so like, a response on why you think he's town would be nice.

[Firebagel]

???

[Firebagel]

I'm the one with wolfbae's cop inventions of unknown reliability, I'm not a tracker?

[Firebagel]

OK I'm tired of thinking

I outsource thinking

With two innos from Bingle and Cakez, is it better to wait on Cakez and see if wolf's inventions can cough up a guilty later, which effectively clears Cakez? If he flips town that does nothing to prove whether they're Reliable or Naive, if he flips scum it proves they're Naive. If we wait for more results that still may or may not give any useful info because Naive is a possibility.

[Firebagel]

How do we know that? There's no results from Sunflower either because Shello didn't use what they had then Sunflower didn't give a second one.

[Firebagel]

See this is the kind of response I wanted when I asked for explanation of how it helps to have the information now.

I think technically still there's the chance marci could be scum who gives naive shots and also wolf's are naive? (I think we were guessing the scum inventor give useless ones like naive?)

But yeah, the response from Dragons sucks.

VOTE: Save the Dragons

[Firebagel]

mod, I'm voting Save the Dragons

fixed, thx

Somehow I hate Marci’s reaction too

Sigh

W/e, I'm checked out

[Firebagel]

Cakez is potentially cop cleared, so no

[Firebagel]

I feel firebagel implied if not said that the keepaway was NAI

Wut

[Firebagel]

Oblivion did you ever explain your Gypyx townread? I'd like to understand it, if you have the chance.

[Firebagel]

DE you should claim

The reasoning behind your marci vote makes a ? assumption in wolfbae being the reliable cop, and I also don't see the marci wagon going anywhere

I also don't know why you say you're sheeping me and Dann on Firebagel when you can read her just fine if not better than me, and it's kinda weirding me out

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