In post 1, Something_Smart wrote:This is the way I see it:
The purpose of PR's, by and large, is to reduce the size of the lynchpool and/or increase the number of lynches town gets. Cop? Anyone you get an inno on is removed from the lynchpool, and if you get a guilty the lynchpool temporarily shrinks to 1. Doctor? Two saves and town gains an extra lynch, plus you can save other PR's. Vig? Two shots give an extra lynch, and you are out of the lynchpool just by virtue of existing. Pretty much all PR's come down to influencing one of those two factors in town's favor. Scum PR's, as well as the scum NK, serve to influence those factors in scum's favor-- be it by roleblocking a cop, or shooting a cop's inno, or protecting a partner from a vig. The difference is that town PR's generally benefit town just by surviving (cop and vig are pro-town pretty much no matter what, barring really bad vig shots, and doc is useful as long as there's ANYONE that you obviously want to keep alive), whereas scum actions need to be aimed precisely. A scum RB is no good unless you can hit a town PR with it. Nightkilling VT's might help your dayplay but it won't stop the cop from clearing half the town and autowinning.
By massclaiming, you allow both town and scum to use their roles in the optimal way. The difference is, town were probably able to use their roles in a MOSTLY optimal way, whereas scum were very likely not using their roles optimally at all. So a massclaim provides a small marginal utility to town, and a much larger one to scum.
Obviously, this changes over the course of the game, which is why you see everyone massclaiming in or near LYLO. This is because as the game goes on the scum get more information and are probably a lot closer to using their roles optimally on, say, D4, compared to D1. So the massclaim helps scum comparatively less, and it still helps town because setup spec can provide a small boost to dayplay (or occasionally a large one, but balance is usually nebulous enough that this benefit isn't big).
These are good points in a vacuum, but wouldn't a massclaim narrow the scum pool in a similar way? The reasoning also assumes that the PRs are useful - a lot of the time, at least in Normal games, they aren't. Stuff like Backup X, Gated-night X, soft-investigatives, doctors, roleblockers... is their night action really better than what you gain by outing them? Moreover, i did say that some roles would be able to prove themselves even after having claimed unless there are roleblocks in action (which is not always the case).
Now there are roles that can be very useful if kept hidden (masons, mostly), but i'd say most other roles aren't better hidden than they are outed. Also, if all roles are outed immediately, most of them will still be able to act, depending on the setup. I mean, if there are 2 investigatives, one of them will likely act and will be able to produce conftown (or softinno). If there is a doctor and a investigative, the investigative will likely act.
Regarding lying town, that's just bad play in 9 out of 10 cases, but i know it happens so i don't have any counter argument to that. It's just bad, and you should never do that in a massclaim. When there is no massclaim running, that's a different matter.
Regarding setups that punish massclaims, yeah, the premise is that i would like to see more of those because i think they're fun!