Mafia Rule Updates Discussion Thread

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Davsto
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Post Post #23 (isolation #0) » Sun Feb 06, 2022 10:35 pm

Post by Davsto »

while i don't fully agree with mastina (I'd hard say, for example, that a lie by omission of your role? definitely a lie) i do agree that at the very least the new trust tell rule is too broad and even more confusing than the old one.

First off there's the contradictions - as an example of what "could be a trust tell" you give
"I have never faked a guilty as scum"
, but later say
"you can say that you've never done the behavior in question, but you cannot say that you have a policy of never doing it."
I cannot see how these two statements are reconcilable.

I also just,, don't see the point. Yes, consistently telling the truth about your role and to an extent being known for doing it gives you an advantage when you've played lots of games before. But so does a lot of things. So does having played several games with the same player so you understand the nuances of their play better than other people. So does just having played the game more in general. So does sharing a timezone with the majority of people in the game. There's lots of out-of-game things that can affect a player's ability and trustworthiness and you can't stomp out them all, and you especially can't stomp out this one in such a broad and confusing way that definitely affects valid play.

Like imo trust tells that should be punishable are ones that relate less to the actual,, playing strategy of the game. Like the red text thing. Or when Krazy said stuff like "you know I replace out as scum". Or saying you only self-vote or do some other
easily replicable
action as town. And I think it has to require an active level of building up or very explicitly pointing out that it's something you intentionally always do and plan to always do. Otherwise you heavily risk lots of people accidentally breaking the rule because they simply acknowledge (or even implicitly state?) how they happen to have always played.

I agree it's tough to try and stop the trust telling stuff that's against the spirit of playing the game, but machine gunning in a way that makes talking about self-meta very scary isn't really it.
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Post Post #28 (isolation #1) » Mon Feb 07, 2022 12:47 pm

Post by Davsto »

and i think additionally that having and giving a reason for "always" behaving a certain way avoids being a trust tell because there's an implicit notion that you'd behave differently if it were tactically advantageous (i.e. the reason may not necessarily apply)

Like you might say you never lie about your role pms because you believe it gives you a disadvantage even if you're scum - this comes with an implication that you might still lie (e.g. by omission) if circumstances were different to usual. Same with the hard bussing - you may never do so but if you say it's because of a certain tactical reason, there's room for that tactical reason to not apply.

i don't necessarily think trust tells
have
to come with a detriment to be a trust tell, i think what should make it punishable not is whether the reason they do it is so they can say they always do it, with the implication that they could do it even if it's disadvantageous. Take what mastina has said vs someone who always tells the truth about their role pm and when asked says it's so that people will always believe what they say about their role pm.

there's a bit of grey area especially since you can't tell what people are thinking but i think you get my drift? like even if they lie about the reason and are actually attempting to get a reputation for not doing x, if they give a non trust-telly reason for doing it then there's room for doubt in the players' heads too and it loses the unfair advantage as it's open to being questioned.

thing is sometimes i'm feeling like i'm saying the same points as the new ban rule but sometimes it feels like i'm not and that's a testament to how, compared to the other rules, it's pretty vague and confusingly written.

i want to state that everything else seems good to me and i'm happy to see further detail and clarification on certain things. i know trust telling is probably the hardest thing to write rules about which probably doesn't help but yeah i struggle to see where the line is in the rules that are written
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Post Post #178 (isolation #2) » Wed Feb 23, 2022 1:39 pm

Post by Davsto »

ugh did they keep that approval to modkill thing despite my expertly reasoned issue with it
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Post Post #179 (isolation #3) » Wed Feb 23, 2022 1:40 pm

Post by Davsto »

idk why i weigh in so much i swear i'm more invested than the game/forum moderation than i am with the game/forum itself (especially the game) i'm just trying to be insightful i hope i help

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