Normal Game Changes (New Year 2024 Update)
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TemporalLich Grand Scheme
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to be clear, would a Willbooster make an action succeed despite protection (e.g. from Ascetic or Rolestopper?)
if so, that would actually be a Strengthener.time will end-
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TemporalLich Grand Scheme
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yeah I do want some sort of form to submit role proposals to potentially be on the Experimental Role Listtime will end-
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TemporalLich Grand Scheme
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would a Gunsmith see guns on a Modifier Cop, an Inventor capable of giving a power that counts as having a gun, and someone holding an invention that counts as having a gun?
Modifier Cop is a Role Cop variant, and Inventor can give out role powers. The interaction of Inventor being able to millerize someone to a Gunsmith might be undesirable, however.
I'd also assume Inventors should only be able to give inventions that are allowed in Complex Normal games for any alignment (e.g. no Friendly Neighbor or Juggernaut inventions in Normal games, though a Vigilante invention should be fine)time will end-
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TemporalLich Grand Scheme
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yeah I agree, Multitasking should still be a modifier in Complex Normal games (and inherent multitasking should still be allowed as a rule)time will end-
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TemporalLich Grand Scheme
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I feel Multitasking is the established name for the modifier that allows you to perform more than one action during the night. I really don't want to rename Multitasking as a modifier just because Inherent Multitasking, which doesn't work the same as giving everyone Multitasking (I would call a rule that gave everyone Multitasking "Universal Multitasking") is a common rule in games.
If a new name is really needed for the "You may perform more than one action during the night." modifier, I'll suggestSimultaneousorSupercharged.
I do kind of like the nameSimultaneousfor true multitasking as opposed to normal multitasking though, and it likely will be useful to have the two similar but different concepts have a different name.time will end-
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TemporalLich Grand Scheme
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I still consider a modifier with the ability text "You may use multiple abilities during the night." a modifier. It can't really stand alone except in the case of Inventors, and that logic could also apply to someone with only the Loyal modifier and no role.
I would call that modifierSimultaneous, though having a variant of Simultaneous that groups roles together similarly to Combined (and the non-Normal modifier known as Split) is an interesting idea.
I also want to propose the nameWardenfor Role Guard, as role guard might be thought of as role bodyguard instead of role security guard, or a role that prevents role changes.time will end-
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TemporalLich Grand Scheme
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Idk any other good names for the Multitasking modifier except for maybeIn post 62, Gamma Emerald wrote: Simultaneous sounds like you must use all abilities togetherSuperchargedif there are no other options.time will end-
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TemporalLich Grand Scheme
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I think having an official alias forGodfatherseems to be a good compromise.
The role name is iconic, thoughDonis also a good role name.
As forMacho, I'd sayRecklessshould be an official alias but that's only because there seems to be no consensus on a good alternate name for Macho.time will end-
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TemporalLich Grand Scheme
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TemporalLich Grand Scheme
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Would something likeIn post 95, N wrote: I think if you're creating a new name for Godfather it should be about the fact that it gives false negatives. Names like Don and Boss don't really make sense; it's not in charge.CovertorDiscreetwork for that purpose?time will end-
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TemporalLich Grand Scheme
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action detector gets both a reporter and an inspector checkIn post 107, DragonEater70 wrote: How exactly does action detector work? Is it like detective but for all types of actions?
action detector results would be something like this:
negative / negative result - {player} has not acted and has not been targeted by anyone else
positive / negative result - {player} has acted, but has not been targeted by anyone else
negative / positive result - {player} has not acted, but has been targeted by someone else
positive / positive result - {player} has acted and has been targeted by someone else
a role that checks if a player has ever attempted to use an active ability is not a role with a name yet: perhaps that role could be namedExecutive?time will end-
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TemporalLich Grand Scheme
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added Executive to the wiki lolIn post 111, RH9 wrote:
good idea imoIn post 110, TemporalLich wrote: a role that checks if a player has ever attempted to use an active ability is not a role with a name yet: perhaps that role could be namedExecutive?time will end-
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TemporalLich Grand Scheme
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I kinda feel 21 is a reasonable cap for normal game size
though that's because 21 is the largest a Simple Normal game can be, as 16 Town and 5 Mafia is a valid Simple Normal alignment ratio
19 is also a good reasonable cap but that would mean 21 player Simple Normal games would need to be ran as Large Themestime will end-
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TemporalLich Grand Scheme
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This makes me wonder how the Immune role actually works in Normal gamesIn post 147, DkKoba wrote:
very much so as the presence of a juggernaut/strongman is not necessarily guaranteed nor required against a bulletproof. what's more concerning is the existence of the infinite shot BP on a townie. complex allows some level of nonsense like this.In post 145, Random Nurse wrote: Is Juggernaut-Immune Bulletproof Townie possible in Complex games?
For example, I wonder how Juggernaut-Immune Doctor would work? Would it be a Doctor immune to Juggernaut kills (and only Juggernaut kills) or would it be a Doctor that can protect from Juggernaut kills (thus making Immune actually work like a modifier in this case)? I assume the former as Immune is a role and not a modifier.time will end-
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TemporalLich Grand Scheme
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that being said, if Normal games really needed a role with juggernaut protection I'd go with the Enchanter from BooneyToonz
pedit: yeah that is what I assumed with role-immune being a roletime will end-
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TemporalLich Grand Scheme
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Ninja-Immune would be even less resolvable: you'd either have a marginally powerful and extremely nuanced role that would require a Watcher to show its true potential or you'd have a very nuanced role similar to Juggernaut-Immune that would be immune to a modified factional kill but not the standard factional kill (and it would still be a question on whether that attempted kill would be Watchable or not).
it depends on if you interpret Factional Kill Modifier Role-Immune as immune to the modified factional kill or only the modifiers applied to that killLast edited by TemporalLich on Tue Mar 12, 2024 4:52 am, edited 4 times in total.time will end-
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TemporalLich Grand Scheme
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if Factional Kill Modifier Role-Immune could work as applying only to the modifiers on the kill (as per DragonEater70's interpretation in 158) you'd have a case for Modifier-Immune roles existing such as Strong-Willed-Immune, Weak-Immune, and Stealthy-Immune
I would say going that far is beyond questionably Normal and goes toward "Who told you this was Normal?" territorytime will end-
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TemporalLich Grand Scheme
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Juggernaut and Ninja are currently considered active roles as far as I know.In post 162, DragonEater70 wrote: Well the thing is that Juggernaut isn't a modifier, it's a passive role (usually modified with the "activated" modifier). So Role-Immune can be immune to passive roles (for example, you could have an Ascetic-Immune Cop if you wanted), but you can't have an Immune that's immune to modifiers such as weak. At least that's my understanding per the wiki page, which I believe was created by the NRG.
I call those two roles the factional kill modifier roles because they work by modifying the factional kill.
I do want more factional kill modifier roles added to Complex Normal games however.
The factional kill modifier roles I think could be Complex Normal roles:
Enforcer - Combines the factional kill with a roleblock. Works well against roleblockers and security guards.
Racketeer - Combines the factional kill with a rolestop. Works well against doctors and watchers.
Vaporizer - Combines the factional kill with both a roleblock and a rolestop (alien ability).
Wraith - Is allowed to commute when performing the factional kill. Extremely powerful and would even stop an Enchanter from blocking them.
If there are any other factional kill modifier roles you think could be Complex Normal roles, I'd want to add them to the wiki.
as for derived roles being derived from modifiers - I'm not actually sure that derived roles can be derived from modifiers. Modifier-Finder would be straightforward if it was given a modifier to look for, Modifier-Enabler might be considered confusing as some may interpret Modifier-Enabler as enabling the modified role instead of just the modifier, and Modifier-Immune would create confusing and unresolvable roles.time will end-
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TemporalLich Grand Scheme
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factional kill modifier roles walk the line between active and passive
Having them be active roles makes more intuitive sense and avoids the problem of having to specify Activated Juggernaut or Activated Ninja to avoid the niche interaction of being unable to perform an unmodified factional kill (oh and factional kill modifier roles if they were considered passive roles would be the type of role where X-shot does not imply Activated!)
pedit: pretty sure "Each Night, if no other member of your faction is performing the factional kill action, you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, you will perform the factional kill. This action cannot be blocked or protected from." would imply that two juggernauts doesn't equal two super kills (if you really wanted two mafia super kills, strong-willed vigilante is what you're looking for)
ppedit: the problem with Juggernaut-Immune is that there's no real intuitively correct interpretation - I would think the intuitively correct interpretation of Juggernaut-Immune would be someone immune to Juggernaut kills completely.time will end-
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TemporalLich Grand Scheme
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I have made a wiki page for the Best Friend role
I am unsure if Best Friend has been used in at least two games hence its role status is currently Untested (the Known role status is for roles that have been used in at least two games and/or are Normal in any capacity).time will end-
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TemporalLich Grand Scheme
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I'd rather not, as there is a small but not insignificant difference between Best Friends and players with the Informed role that know "You are informed that {player} is aligned with theIn post 179, Gypyx wrote: if we include the interations where it was made with the informed modifier that's 3 games
there must've been a theme with it but i'm sadly not enough of a site veteran to know, and are informed that {player} isTownInformedabout you in the same way you are informed of {player}."
Best Friends would flip as Best Friends, confirming the nature of the information received but not the specific information. An Informed player would simply flip as Informed, giving no information to the information that was received.
Likewise, a difference in the flip applies to Companion as opposed to an Informed player who knows "You are informed that {player} is aligned with the." - Companions flip as Companions, confirming they know someone is aligned with the Town, while an Informed player flips as Informed.Towntime will end-
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TemporalLich Grand Scheme
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As in the role that is to Best Friend as Coworker is to Mason?In post 181, Gamma Emerald wrote: What is Best Friend’s “neighbor” counterpart aka you know X player has a similar role but not the alignment and there’s no communication channel?
or simply a role that forms a group with no meaningful information and doesn't give PT access?time will end-
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TemporalLich Grand Scheme
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I'm not sure the utility of such a role...In post 183, Gamma Emerald wrote: The latter
I don't think that concept has a name yet but I'd suggest the nameGroupie.time will end-
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TemporalLich Grand Scheme
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sure, if I couldn't discern what it was then it's even more likely to be an undiscovered roleIn post 185, Gamma Emerald wrote: I guess “no meaningful information” is not accurate to my idea
I’ll message you on discord about what I’m thinking if you’re willingtime will end
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