Why do hydras traditionally get out of thread discussion?

[Magua]

I don't like that line of logic. In a 2 on 1 chess game, the difference in player ability is greater than the difference between solo/teams, but it still wouldn't be allowed in a tournament, as there are rules against it.

In this example, they're not allowed because they're not allowed. Mods can (and do) disallow hydras. Other mods can (and do) allow hydras.

Yosarian's line of logic is also correct. Mods allowing hydras are by default circumventing that site rule, and saying it doesn't apply for this game, even though it is never really spelled out that way.

Er, what? If the mod allows it, it is not against site rules. It's not "circumventing"; the mod is specifically allowing it.

I'm not sure when that took over and became the norm, but it seemed to creep in slowly. Allowing that in your games should logically force you to allow any player in the game to be given "talk outside of thread" rights, as a matter of fairness. The current set up with hydras isn't logical or fair.

If the mod allows hydras, all players are allowed to hydra. So not sure where your "fairness" argument comes in. Want to talk to Glork about the game? Sign up with him as a hydra. Done!

I can understand why some people / mods don't like hydras. I understand the arguments that (for town, at least) two heads are usually better than one. So don't allow them in games you mod. Don't play in games that have them, and/or convince the mod to not allow them.

But any talk that they're against site rules is just a bunch of hooey, and any talk about making them non-Normal is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay out there.

[Magua]

It is circumvention - if the mod was specifically allowing external communication, I wouldn't have to be in a hydra to externally communicate with someone. The mod isn't allowing that though.

You are using a different word than "circumvention." When I allow a hydra into a game I mod, I am specifically allowing those two players to communicate with eachother. The same way that I allow players who have died in the game to talk in the dead QT.

[Magua]

Sorry. English isn't my first language - what word should it be? It seems to me like most mods didn't explicitly note they're allowing something which would otherwise be not allowed when choosing to have a hydra in a game. You're implying mods actively choose to given the hydra an exception to the rule, when I think most mods don't think about it.

Show me a mod who allowed a hydra in a game and did not think they would talk amongst themselves outside of the game thread.

[Magua]

I think hydras being accepted by most people (however that came to be) and seeing them in other games trumps whatever rule they're going against. Being accepted in other games validates them - mods don't think about them beyond that.

They're not going against a rule. Do you think Dead QTs violate any rules?

Your argument is that there exist mods who don't understand that hydra players talk amongst themselves out-of-thread, that these mods allow hydras into their games, and then are surprised to learn that the hydra players were communicating outside of the game without the mod's consent. I do not believe this scenario exists.

[Magua]

Please provide a strawman-less example that does not rely on allowing something for one slot while disallowing it for all others.

[Magua]

I personally feel that hydras provide an un-fair advantage to whatever side they are on.

it also violates a mini-normal rule when a game calls for 13 players, and there are 14 playing the game.

So you're against replacements as well, I assume?

it gives town an extra set of eyes to catch scum, and it gives scum an extra set up eyes to look for breadcrums or whatever.

Also against daytalking masons / scum.

and YES, the 2 accounts talking in a QT is a violation of site rules about talking out-side the game. some may call it gray area, Mith may never do anything about it, but it IS a violation plain and simple.

Also against Dead QTs.

I also think that since hydras are not normal, they should be banned from any "normal" setups or at the very least limited to 1 hydra per game (I prefer banned personally)

Actually, to be somewhat serious, limiting to 1 per game is, in fact, worse than simply outright banning, because then it *does* become something that not everyone could do if they chose.

To be somewhat less serious, I'm amused by everyone's agreement that there's a huge laundry list of things that aren't "fair":
- Innate scumhunting skill
- Innate rhetorical skill
- Time to devote to the game
- English as a native language
- Meta
And that these are all acceptable and understood inequalities, but hydras are a different class of "unfair" despite the fact that their [sarcasm]huge-gamebreaking-capability[/sarcasm] is actually available to anyone, whereas many of the things above are not.

Now, to be perfectly clear on this, I *don't* care if anyone dislikes hydras, or doesn't want to play with hydras. Some mods forbid them; great, more power to you. Some mods poll the players during signups; also great. I *do* care that there are those who have posted in this thread who think it is their right, their perogative, nay, their *duty* to try to ensure that other mods don't get to make the decision for their own games. These people can kiss my ass.

[Magua]

Worse than his "handicap good players to 3 posts" comparison?

Did you misread that comparison as serious?

The analogy would be more like: would you genetically mesh DeonBranch-SantanaMoss into one player and make a test tube baby wide receiver?

[Magua]

You are the normal mod, can't you dictate your wishes?

This attitude in this post quite succinctly summarizes the problem I have with many of the anti-hydra posts in this thread.

[Magua]

Hydras are taking over the site and it's quite frustrating. I dont want to play in the newbie que but right now I'm forces to.

Translation: Hydras are popular. I don't like hydras. I wish my opinion to override everyone else's.

(And your statement is factually incorrect, but that seems besides the point because I do not believe you base your argument around facts to begin with.)

To make this drop dead simple, because I am expecting to get misrepped: you not liking hydras is fine. You saying you don't want to play in a game with hydras is fine. Bravo, etc. You wishing mods to be told that they must run a game the way *you* like rather than the way they want is abhorrent.

PEdit: Faraday tries the factual approach.

[Magua]

I think Beck's point is reasonable even if his lack of tact is not. I'm not sure whether I agree with it or not, but the normal queue seems like a reasonable place to put a universal no hydra rule in place.

Unneeded rule is unneeded.

Mini 1208 has no hydras.
Mini 1207 had no hydra during signups, 1 replaced in.
There was no Mini 1206.
Mini 1205 had 1 hydra.
Mini 1204 has no hydras.
Mini 1203 had no hydras.
Mini 1202 has no hydras.

According to Papa Zito in the queue thread, the "so many hydras" game is 1216, which hasn't started yet, but I can't find a 1210-1215, so dunno.

Digging deeper, (and I will humbly defer to Papa Zito here if I'm incorrect on anything), it looks like 1195 was the last "hydra" game. 1216 is the "next".

So. Yeah.

[Magua]

Isn't that enough? Again, why shouldn't I hydra with somebody to improve my game? If I do, why doesn't that disadvantage other players (hint: the answer isn't, "well then everyone should hydra"; that's a different game than Mafia)

For the same reason that I'm not disadvantaged if Glork signs up into a game I'm joining.

[Magua]

We already had this discussion 3 or 4 pages ago. Try to keep up.

I see no disagreement with what I just said.

Magua, consider this an early wedding anniversary present: Mini 1880

I'm too stupid to get whatever point it is you're trying to convey here.

[Magua]

I'm too stupid to get whatever point it is you're trying to convey here.

There's three hydras in that mini normal. (SecretProject, WormyKrew, Soben)

Yes, that part I understood. I don't understand your point in conveying it. It seems like there's a Mini Normal with 3-4 hydras every 15-20 games.

@Junpei:

Not seeing the point of your post. If you want to "hydra" with someone who actually never posts in the game, knock yourself out (assuming, as usual, that the mod allows hydras). That's what your "consulting" seems to be.

[Magua]

Niggas please, my post is about double standards.

There are no double standards being applied. You want to talk to Vi about a game? Ask Vi to hydra with you. You want to talk to Vi about an ongoing game you're in? Replace in as a you/Vi hydra.

(Assumes Vi and the mod both agree.)

[Magua]

But I have to make an actual hydra account when all I'm doing is discussing with Vi.

...and? Your point seems to fall down here. Maybe a mod would allow you to do it without making an account; you could always ask. I personally wouldn't, and I would be surprised if any would, but that's a separate topic.

If the mod says "You can do X as long as you do Y," and your response is, "But I don't want to do Y, that's inconvenient," that is hardly a double standard.

It's a cheating loophole

Your inability to understand that anything the mod allows is by definition not cheating is rather stunning.

Your desire to tell the mod what is and is not cheating in their own game is rather terrifying.

[Magua]

I don't think a mod should be able to ignore site rules

Site rules > mod rules

Have you even

read

these rules?

I'll quote for your own edification:

Some rules apply to most games, and should be assumed to hold unless the moderator explicitly says otherwise. These are:

[Magua]

Unneeded rule is unneeded.

Mini 1208 has no hydras.
Mini 1207 had no hydra during signups, 1 replaced in.
There was no Mini 1206.
Mini 1205 had 1 hydra.
Mini 1204 has no hydras.
Mini 1203 had no hydras.
Mini 1202 has no hydras.

[Magua]

I can't be guaranteed a hydra-less game. I don't know there's no hydras until after the game is full and not even then. 1 hydra is too much for me by the way so 1205 and 1207 don't count. Which brings me to the next point of replacing in. Mods get desperate all the time and will let hydras replace in. Even let hydras of players already in the game replace in for that player.

You can easily guarantee a hydra-less game by specifying that when you /in. Beck is doing this currently in the Mini Normal queue, IIRC.

Also were hydras in mind when mith wrote the site rules?

The "site rules" are the ones that can't be broken. No pornography, etc. The "mafia rules" are common guidelines and, this being the key point that I think some people are willfully blinding themselves to, at the moderator's discretion. If I, as a mod, want to run a game where the players can quote their Role PMs or talk with whoever they want to about it...I can.

So this reads hydras are illegal unless a mod specifically says they will allow them, the way it is now it's assumed it's okay unless a mod says no

Also I bet most mods in the que don't even know they can refuse hydras

I will refer you to what I said to Hoopla:

Your argument is that there exist mods who don't understand that hydra players talk amongst themselves out-of-thread, that these mods allow hydras into their games, and then are surprised to learn that the hydra players were communicating outside of the game without the mod's consent. I do not believe this scenario exists.

Show me any mod on this site who is unaware that hydras talk amongst themselves out-of-thread, or that they can refuse hydras if they wish. I do not believe you will find any.