Another Mafia Game Needlessly Ruined: Please Read.

[Zindaras]

>snip<

*hugs*

The way this behaviour seems to be growing more and more common lately disturbs me greatly. Also, I believe this game should still count toward's Katy's modding experience. She appears to have done a good job at finding replacements and generally keeping the game alive and it would be mean to have her host another game before being able to host a Mini Theme.

Metatron should probably be banned.

[Zindaras]

Edit: I'm too friggin' nice.

Quoting Mod PMs is serious business. The fact that people don't even seem surprised about it anymore, that people somehow view it as acceptable to act like a sore loser and post your role PM in the thread (or other things) is ridiculous.

Everyone

who has to be modkilled for blatantly breaking the rules of the game is a serious offender.

[Zindaras]

*shrugs*

No need to vandalize his Wiki, it's far more likely that people are going to notice this thread than a change in his Wiki...

[Zindaras]

Again, you didn't have to corroborate anything. As a mod, you have to let

anything

short of posting a mod PM be simply gameplay. If you had just said "Metatron is lynched, he is GF, night", the game would have been very, very interesting, rather than ruined. Was Tar WIFOMing because Meta fingered both him and false scum (as happened in the gambit I referenced)? Even if Meta

wasn't gambitting

, he didn't do anything that technically called for a stop of the game. Tar was dumb to buy in, yes, but the game was by no means dead.

Tarlindur made it way too clear. And with Tar outed, the other guy was dead as well. It had no future.

Also, I think faking breaking the rules is just as bad as breaking them.

[Zindaras]

Maz is somewhat right. In that case, you should be blaming Tar as much as Meta.

Uh-huh. Quoting your role PM is a modkillable offense. Which means that quoting your role PM will invariably have to lead to a modkill.

It's quite silly to put the blame on anybody but Metatron here.

[Zindaras]

Where did he quote his role PM?

Hmms. True.

Fact is, he claimed scum and fingered his two actual buddies. Which means good game. There's no way the town's not going to lynch both of them, especially with (apparently) a cop left.

And from an ethical viewpoint, I disagree heavily with play like that, Maz.

[Zindaras]

And from an ethical viewpoint, I disagree heavily with play like that, Maz.

Respected - but why? Aren't chaos and confusion the mafia's prime tools?

There is a line to be drawn. I think it's against the spirit of the game, which is that the Mafia attempt to act like Town. Also, the problem is that things like that usually have the same effect as the truth. People will go all crazy, assume the game's ruined, and it's usually ruined anyway by then.

Also, you agree with me that if this thing is serious then the game's as good as done, right? Ruined beyond repair. Then either the game would be ended on the spot, as it was ruined, or it would continue, in which case everyone knows the guy was lying.

[Zindaras]

This is why we should establish a policy of maximal mod laissez-faire. If the mod steps in and says "aw now it's ruined" every time someone does something crazy or out-of-the-box, innovation is stifled.

However, by accepting the good, we also accept the bad, in other words, the piss-sore losers. To be honest, I think stifling that is a lot more important than letting creativity run free, because, if there's something everybody hates, it's sore losers. I'd absolutely hate to see the day when something like that becomes an accepted move to cause chaos and confusion.

Letting the game continue would've been a farce. Tar and Simenon would've been lynched on the spot, and it would've been game over.

Edit: I don't think the guy should be permabanned. We should heavily limit his games (probably to newbies and maybe open games) for a while though, until he's learned, or give him a temp ban.

[Zindaras]

Because they're both claims?

That's a pretty tangential link.

[Zindaras]

It's not. The town isn't going to lynch all his town investigations, and they're not going to lynch him either, or at the very least not on the spot, something entirely different from claiming scum.

How is putting your buddies on an investigation list ruining their chances?

[Zindaras]

I'm assuming the sort of town that would lynch all the investigations. Very worst-case scenario, to be sure, but so is a scum-claim.

Wait, a town which is going to lynch all the investigations of a cop-claiming scumbag? Why would they do that?

[Zindaras]

Why would someone claim scum and give away their scumbuddies?

There is no reason for that, but there's quite the difference between intentionally ruining a game and just being stupid/silly.

And if a scumbag fake claims Cop, it's usually with the intent to stay alive, while claiming scum is suicidal.

[Zindaras]

Let me counter exemplify:
If Meta had been GF and fingered a townie and a scum, and you, as cop, investigate the one that was a townie, what is your reaction then? If he's fingered two townies, he's gotten you to waste two investigations. It's not an altogether useless play.

But had he done so, the game would not have been necessarily ruined, and would therefore have taken a different course. Metatron was clearly talking the truth.

[Zindaras]

You just said the exact opposite of what I said in my post. You don't punish people for game-throwing until the game is over - that way, the players don't know whether or not it was a gambit or a real hiss-fit until after the game. Since you can't metagame the game after the game is over, that point is moot, and I don't understand how you come to that conclusion.

But he'd have to be modkilled for breaking the fun rule.

If you modkill someone for throwing or pretending to throw, the gambit's still possible, anyway. GF fingers some combination of townies and scum, gets modkills, shows up GF. This is actually MORE powerful if the town still gets their lynch, as the ensuing chaos may cause a mislynch that otherwise would be averted by the next night's copping. (That's all assuming a cop's alive and unopposed.)

Intentionally modkilling yourself is probably one of the worst things you can do in a Mafia game.

[Zindaras]

I think then you are doing something wrong. If you don't want to play anymore, get replaced or simply decide to have fun.

A lot of people see Mafia as more than just a game. It is also in many ways a responsibility. You signed up, so you should play the game, and the entire game. I know I view it that way. I feel guilty every time I get replaced and usually do everything I can to make it up to the mod in question.

[Zindaras]

I see it like you. But altruism at the expense of your happiness is nothing for everyone, and certainly nothing for me.

Yes, but I believe that would lead to everyone in the game asking for replacement.

[Zindaras]

Good luck finding ten replacements for a game where the scum's just outed themselves. I can think of nothing less fun than debating a moot point for weeks or months on end to close a game out. It'd be like playing in a game with nine sane cops--joy.

*nods*

Oh, and you guys are all being too hard on Metatron. It's not his fault that he's so evil... it's society.

Society.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... &plindex=1

Mother Theresa don't have @#$# on him.

<3

[Zindaras]

Being the sucker that I am, I'm inclined to give Metatron another chance. Though you should really learn to control yourself. No matter how unfair you see the play of others, the mod, the setup, it's no reason to ruin a game on purpose. At best (if you're right and everyone agrees with you) you're lowering yourself to the level of the person who has brought you unjustice, at worst you're ruining a perfectly fine game over an imagined slight.

[Zindaras]

Katy, I know this is after the fact, but if I had come to you with the concern that my scumbuddies were mostly inactive and getting replaced alot, and I felt in made the game unbalanced for me, what would have happened.

Whatever the slights, whatever has happened, ruining the game in retaliation is unacceptable.

Quag, I don't even get where you're coming from here. Yes, it's a game. Which means that people are trying to have fun. This is like someone flipping over the chess board once they're in a bad position. And while a chess game can be reset, a Mafia game cannot. People put a

lot

of work into these games, and to see it ruined by a sore loser is, to be honest, disgusting.

[Zindaras]

:notgoodposting:

how much work could you possibly put into a game?

Personally, I've made replies to posts that took me hours to write, analyses which took me hours, sometimes even days to make. Just reading a thread takes hours. Every page is about 5 pages if you'd print it. A game like Lights Out 2 is about the size of the sixth Harry Potter book.

why can't a mafia game be "reset"?

Because important things have been revealed about the setup. If you restart and re-distribute roles, then every player would already have one of the other role PMs in their inbox. Closed setups can't be reset.

why can't everyone simply roll their eyes at the guy and then leave it alone?

Because everyone, mod and players, put a lot of work in a game and do not wish to see all their work be for naught. Because people were probably having fun and don't want to lose that, as well.

My next two upcoming theme park games have been in the works for a long, long time. Flay and I slated Boondock Saints

over a year ago

, and I've been working on a top-down design for another game, Weather Mafia, for several months.

You're hosting Boondock Saints? You've been talking about that game for years, not just one year. Awesome news, though.

Historically, proportional punishment has always been enforced as a manner of defending honor in sport and gaming. In Ancient Greece, punishments for various degrees of dishonoring games ranged from banishment from competition to death.

The Greeks also flogged cheaters.

I think a flogging is in order here.

[Zindaras]

We already have some (rare) "Major League" games. The Queue already allows for it. I figure it's about one in a hundred Minis or something like that. I'll admit that I don't really follow it besides responding to the (rare) invitations that I get to play in games.

Everyone only wants good players for their games. We don't need elitism or cliques.

[Zindaras]

All of us are geeks

o.o. whaa??

dude, you play Mafia. On an internet forum. Take some pride in your geekiness for love's sake! Represent!

Mafia nor Internet is inherently geeky. *smiles*

As far as cliques go, just look at the childish way some people are treating and being treated by other players. That should not be allowed to escalate.

and yet i don't think i've ever seen you on this site before -- your play must not be enticing. what's all that work going for? nothing?

I've never seen you post in any Mafia forum, personally (I've mainly seen you around in General Discussion). We've just never played together, something that doesn't say anything about either of us.