The Reliability of Wiki Tells/Standard Tells

[Lateralus22]

Just wondering how reliable in general Wiki tells such as this and this are or if they're considered outdated.

[bv310]

Tells are not reliable. Either town or scum are likely to make them. It is in questioning these and gauging reactions to accusations that real scumminess is found.

[PogoStick]

Probably not a reliable tool anymore, town does the same things sometimes.

P.edit

yes agree with bv

[bv310]

Also, lol at the "Well, that sucks" tell. Not commenting on the night results is equally bad.

[Lateralus22]

Also, lol at the "Well, that sucks" tell. Not commenting on the night results is equally bad.

Why is that? I always thought it'd be better if most post don't comment as there wouldn't be any WIFOM suspicions arising from that.

[bv310]

I guess it depends on what the quote is. Just saying, "Welp, that sucks" doesn't really mean anything and should be seen as fluff (which it is). Saying, "Well, that blows. Anyway, here's what I think based on the flip" is better, while saying "Well, that sucks. Why didn't the doctor do his job?" is considerably worse.

[Lord Gurgi]

Don't read the wiki. Learn the game.

[PogoStick]

Don't read the wiki. Learn the game.

But when you ask people for advice or what things are the tell you to read the wiki

[Lord Gurgi]

Then they're dumb. Don't ask them for advice.

[Yosarian2]

Don't read the wiki. Learn the game.

Or feel free to do both.

Anyway, most people will tell you otherwise, but some of those tells are actually still at least moderately effective, if used properly. There are a lot of tells that are valid, so long as they're not misused. ("Valid" meaning "scum are somewhat more likely to do these things then town", not meaning "completely reliable"; nothing is completely reliable.) But, no, there's no standard list of tells that everyone agrees on; and if there was, not many of those tells would be on it theses days.

[bv310]

Plus the existence of a list sort of obviates the need for said list. By defining what people are going to be looking for, most scum will actively avoid those things, meaning that the probability of a given "tell" being from town rise significantly.

[PogoStick]

The problem is people don't know what really is a scum tell and what isn't.

I have heard wifom and AtE be called scum tells but I have seen town also use these also.

[bv310]

Those are just buzzwords people like to throw around to seem smart, in my experience. I don't see how AtE is more likely to come from scum than town.

[Yosarian2]

By defining what people are going to be looking for, most scum will actively avoid those things

That theory is actually much less true then most people would have you believe. There are any number of commonly known scumtells that have been around forever but are still entirely valid.

[Zachrulez]

Also, lol at the "Well, that sucks" tell. Not commenting on the night results is equally bad.

It tends to be a pretty good newbie tell actually. Experienced players are smarter than that though.

I get by fine without commenting on night.

[mykonian]

Just wondering how reliable in general Wiki tells such as this and this are or if they're considered outdated.

Standard tells are known by both mafia and town. They are valuable, but you have to learn how to use and abuse them. Their biggest value is in argumentation. Everyone recognizes them, and certain ones of them can be quite convincing. For finding scum they are less usefull, because scum can avoid them. The most fun way to catch scum is to see who is unnaturally avoiding tells like these.

But, like gurgi said, it is better to learn the game. All these tells have a reason why they exist. Somehow it is natural for scum to congratulate the doctor (otherwise the tell wouldn't exist). You are a much better scumhunter if you know why tells like these exist, as it lets you use them at the right moment and against the right players. On some players certain tells will work, on some others it won't. Meta is very important, if only for that. You don't have to mention it, as the word "meta" nowadays makes people think you are scum, but it is important to have it in consideration.

Then, the last aspect of tells like these. The fact that scum

can

avoid them. The word "can" in mafia implies WIFOM. If you know why these tells exist you can decide for yourself how effective such a tell can be (what percentage of scum will approximately be caught with it). Again, Meta acts as a reference. A certain player might usually make the same choice in the same situation. Some scum are bold and daring, others are timid. If you know this, the scumtells you use on them will be more effective.

[hasdgfas]

Also, lol at the "Well, that sucks" tell. Not commenting on the night results is equally bad.

There's a huge difference between "well that sucks" and commenting on night results. You

know

it sucks when the cop/doc/vig gets killed, there is no reason to point it out except to get others to agree with you.

[Lord Gurgi]

Cow is right here. Standard tells were designed to provide examples of

why

something that might seem town is actually scummy, because people don't consider why the scum would benefit from this. It backfired and now things that should seem town seem scummy and so the commentary on night results has been severely curtailed. If you learn the game, learn to interpret circumstances, and just think, you'll do much better than if you withdraw from any critical thought to use cookie-cutter tells.

[bv310]

True. Like I said above, there's a difference between going "Well, that sucks" and going "Well, that blows, but here's what I think based on that flip". I just hate when people think that wikitells are guaranteed hits on scum.

[Lord Gurgi]

Yes there is. The point is how you interpret that. I would even have issue with "based on that flip" because nobody ever goes into why that person died. That's 'WIFOM', so instead stick with little constructed contingency plans and flow charts rather than reevaluating and thinking. The game is turning into lazy play. There's plenty of theory, but just like anywhere else, once theory is taken into the field it all falls apart. You need to understand and to be able to adapt.

The wiki following has encouraged completely ignoring night commentary and that's foolish. Completely spurning the wiki has lead to the complete disregard for the valid elements of the wiki. The world is dividing into two camps here, and neither are right. However, I think reading the wiki leads too far into either camp. The whole VI thing is a crutch to protect bad players. Ignoring the wiki makes you think and will lead you to question what others treat as a preconceived notion.

I'm trying to articulate the differences between what I think are the reasons you're talking about and the reasons I am.

[Yosarian2]

Yes there is. The point is how you interpret that. I would even have issue with "based on that flip" because nobody ever goes into why that person died. That's 'WIFOM',

Ugh. It is not.

The fact that town don't ever discuss why someone died, that it's become basically taboo, is a big part of the reason scum have such a high win percentage on this site I think. If you have something useful to say about the nightkill and about who would or would not want to kill that person, please, just say it.

The world is dividing into two camps here, and neither are right.

Huh? I'm not sure what two camps there are. There are different schools of thought on scumhunting, but really none of them are wrong, per se.

[PogoStick]

yeah I don't see how discussing the night kills is scummy, I mean how else are you going to get leads. you have to look at interactions and vote patterns

[Darox]

The only hard and reliable rule is that hard and reliable rules don't really work.

Tells are useful for communicating to others who you think is scummy & why, not for helping you find scum in the first place.

[hasdgfas]

Yes there is. The point is how you interpret that. I would even have issue with "based on that flip" because nobody ever goes into why that person died. That's 'WIFOM',

Ugh. It is not.

The fact that town don't ever discuss why someone died, that it's become basically taboo, is a big part of the reason scum have such a high win percentage on this site I think. If you have something useful to say about the nightkill and about who would or would not want to kill that person, please, just say it.

:IagreewithYosarian2:

True. Like I said above, there's a difference between going "Well, that sucks" and going "Well, that blows, but here's what I think based on that flip". I just hate when people think that wikitells are guaranteed hits on scum.

see, there's

zero

reason to even make mention of the fact that it sucks. Same with "what a great night" when a godfather dies. That's super scummy, or at least anti-town, as there's no town motivation for it. Just skip that part entirely and just analyze.

[bv310]

I disagree. Personally, when I see someone actively avoid commenting on the night in any way (even avoiding referencing the flip or flips), then more than likely they're scum trying to avoid being implicated.

Also, I think Yos has some very valid points.