Dealing with Scum Bus Drives

[Bullet]

What should a Moderator do when he designs a Bus Drive role for a Scum Group and then they start changing the actions every night.
Should he inform the townspeople about possible changes if they targets are changed or not?
I'm really confused about this, just want to know what is the best thing for a Moderator to do.

thank you.
Otherwise how is a normal town member supposed to know his actions were manipulated or not. Because he will just be losing all his credibility in the end.

[Zachrulez]

Scum Bus Driver...

I don't even...

[Bullet]

Is it that bad to exist a Scum Bus driver? lmao

[Battousai]

It depends on the role (assume player A is the intended target, while the action has been redirected to player B)

Investigative: Player B is innocent/didn't visit anyone
Protective: Usually doesn't get a result normally, so doesn't get one redirected
Killing: Usually doesn't get a result normally, so doesn't get one redirected

You shouldn't tell the player that their action was redirected no matter what, though when you give them "Player B is innocent" they can pretty much infer it, when they ask if you made a mistake and tell them no.

[ReaperCharlie]

It's perfectly fine to have a scum Bus Driver. As long as things are balanced out with a bunch more town power. He can only Busdrive 2 people per night (unless he's got some crazy-@$$ powers like the Mixmaster had in Metropolis: Revisited -- check out both the role PM for him, and the mod notes).

I have a game coming out soon in which there will be a possibility of a scum Bus Driver. There is also a glut of other power which will likely be town. The point of the game is to figure out who's lying, and kill them off; it should be pretty straightforward on that level. But it'll be confusing though, figuring out who's lying!

But it all depends on how you want the game to feel.

[ReaperCharlie]

It depends on the role (assume player A is the intended target, while the action has been redirected to player B)

Investigative: Player B is innocent/didn't visit anyone
Protective: Usually doesn't get a result normally, so doesn't get one redirected
Killing: Usually doesn't get a result normally, so doesn't get one redirected

You shouldn't tell the player that their action was redirected no matter what, though when you give them "Player B is innocent" they can pretty much infer it, when they ask if you made a mistake and tell them no.

I wouldn't even tell them that. I would tell them "Your target is innocent".

What's the point of having a Bus Driver or Redirector, if the PR being redirected KNOWS he was redirected?

[Battousai]

I prefer not to fuck with investigations. It's a little bastardly. I always tell my cops Player A is innocent/guilty or that the investigation failed.

Protectives and killings do not recieve confirmations anyways, so I wouldn't give them extra information.

[Bullet]

How is someone supposed to maintain his credibility after he thinks his action was sucessful and wasn't redirected though?
I don't think that is any fair at all.

For Mafias to be bus driven, even without information it would be acceptable since usually they choose someone after they have made an action on them before, like investigating, and if they were bus driven they would know it right away.

For a town member who can't communicate at all with anyone and just rely on what the moderator posts, giving evidence that he performed a target on player x and the result was this, then when he wants to announce if that player is innocent or not, how will he know if he is telling the truth or not.

I think it is really unfair.

[Kdub]

Should he inform the townspeople about possible changes if they targets are changed or not?

It's entirely up to the mod, as long as it is made clear to the players beforehand whether they will or will not know about their actions being possibly redirected.

How is someone supposed to maintain his credibility after he thinks his action was sucessful and wasn't redirected though?
I don't think that is any fair at all.

You could say the same thing about a cop investigating a godfather, tracker targeting a ninja, etc. I think bus driver and other redirection roles are common enough in theme games that players should know that redirection is always a possibility, so I don't think it's particularly unfair. I could see it being considered unexpected/unfair in normal games though.

[ReaperCharlie]

That's why Redirectors and Bus Drivers aren't allowed in Normal games, Kdub.

They're part of the beast of Mafia. Learn to love them, or avoid them like the plague.

The way most people do with Jesters, Cults, etc. I love Cults, though.

[Magua]

What should a Moderator do when he designs a Bus Drive role for a Scum Group and then they start changing the actions every night.
Should he inform the townspeople about possible changes if they targets are changed or not?
I'm really confused about this, just want to know what is the best thing for a Moderator to do.

For roles that normally do not get any response to their actions (eg, doctor), then they should not be informed.

For roles that do normally get a response (eg, cop), you have two choices:
1) You can tell them their new target (cop investigates X, you give them the report "Y is innocent")
2) You can not tell them their new target (cop investigates X, you give them the report "Innocent")

Frankly, I consider 2) to be bastard modding. You can make the argument that it's equivalent to a godfather coming up innocent on a cop report or a framer framing the cop target, but if there's a bus driver and investigative roles don't know if they were redirected or not, the investigations (from the point of view of the player) effectively become random. Were I the mod, I would go with 1)

You should also consider how trackers and watchers, etc, deal with the bus driver itself.
- A tracker who tracks the bus driver should see them visit both targets.
- A watcher who watches a bus driver target should see the bus driver visit. By the nature of watching a target that is being bus driven, the watcher should also end up watching the other person driven, which if you're going with 1) above, means that the watcher will know they're driven and will know that the bus driver is one of those appearing on his report.

Finally, you should determine if the bus driver can drive themselves with someone else. I advise against this, but that's just personal opinion.

All of these decisions should be made before the game starts, obviously.

[gorilla]

also: never allow a driver to drive someone with no one

[Yosarian2]

I wouldn't even tell them that. I would tell them "Your target is innocent".

What's the point of having a Bus Driver or Redirector, if the PR being redirected KNOWS he was redirected?

Neah. I don't like that kind of thing. Confusion is fine, but random mod misdirection is just annoying.

That being said, even with investigative roles told who they're investigating, it's still a powerful role if used right. In the right situation, if pro-town people foolishly claim when they shouldn't and then share too much information, a scum bus driver can get a vig to shoot himself in the head when he's trying to shoot another member of the scum team, if you can guess who the vig is going to target. That's just awesome.

[Gammagooey]

If you have someone INVESTIGATING someone they are smart enough to realize "oh wait the names on all these files are completely wrong/this isn't the same person that I started looking at when night began".

I pretty much agree with everything Battousai said.

[ReaperCharlie]

What should a Moderator do when he designs a Bus Drive role for a Scum Group and then they start changing the actions every night.
Should he inform the townspeople about possible changes if they targets are changed or not?
I'm really confused about this, just want to know what is the best thing for a Moderator to do.

For roles that normally do not get any response to their actions (eg, doctor), then they should not be informed.

For roles that do normally get a response (eg, cop), you have two choices:
1) You can tell them their new target (cop investigates X, you give them the report "Y is innocent")
2) You can not tell them their new target (cop investigates X, you give them the report "Innocent")

Frankly, I consider 2) to be bastard modding. You can make the argument that it's equivalent to a godfather coming up innocent on a cop report or a framer framing the cop target, but if there's a bus driver and investigative roles don't know if they were redirected or not, the investigations (from the point of view of the player) effectively become random. Were I the mod, I would go with 1)

You should also consider how trackers and watchers, etc, deal with the bus driver itself.
- A tracker who tracks the bus driver should see them visit both targets.
- A watcher who watches a bus driver target should see the bus driver visit. By the nature of watching a target that is being bus driven, the watcher should also end up watching the other person driven, which if you're going with 1) above, means that the watcher will know they're driven and will know that the bus driver is one of those appearing on his report.

Finally, you should determine if the bus driver can drive themselves with someone else. I advise against this, but that's just personal opinion.

All of these decisions should be made before the game starts, obviously.

Star Wars Mafia:

Redirector-scum knows he's going to be investigated that night.
He redirects the known cop to an innocent person that night.
Cop gets the result "Innocent".
Cop doesn't push for Redirector-scum's lynch the next day.

It's a function of the role itself. It's not bastard-modding.

[Magua]

And I would still prefer:

Redirector-scum knows he's going to be investigated that night.
He redirects the known cop to

an innocent person

the cop himself that night.
Cop gets the result

"Innocent"

"Cop is innocent".
Cop

doesn't push for Redirector-scum's lynch the next day.

has no useful information.

[Faraday]

I don't like drivers/re-directors really.

[ReaperCharlie]

And I would still prefer:

Redirector-scum knows he's going to be investigated that night.
He redirects the known cop to

an innocent person

the cop himself that night.
Cop gets the result

"Innocent"

"Cop is innocent".
Cop

doesn't push for Redirector-scum's lynch the next day.

has no useful information.

What do you mean you'd "prefer" that. Like... it'd be automatic? That's useless. It takes away the entire choice and strategy of the role. And if not automatic, then... what? What if the redirector doesn't choose to redirect to the cop?

What's so hard to understand about "Cop inspects a target" and "Cop gets a result 'Your target is innocent/guilty'"?

It's a

role

, just like PGO/Weak Doc/Roleblocker/etc. Trying to dilute it or change what it fundamentally

is

, only cheapens it.

[Gammagooey]

Redirector is already VERY powerful without adding in misleading investigation results.
I wouldn't say it's bastard modding but it's kinda stupid IMO.

[Magua]

What do you mean you'd "prefer" that. Like... it'd be automatic? That's useless. It takes away the entire choice and strategy of the role. And if not automatic, then... what? What if the redirector doesn't choose to redirect to the cop?

Then...er...the cop gets a report on whoever the redirector does choose to redirect to? Your example postulated a "known cop" and a scum-redirector who knew they were going to get investigated.

What's so hard to understand about "Cop inspects a target" and "Cop gets a result '

Your target

is innocent/guilty'"?

But in this case, you're actively lying to the cop, because you're *not* giving them a report on their target, you're giving them a report on some *other* target.

It's a

role

, just like PGO/Weak Doc/Roleblocker/etc. Trying to dilute it or change what it fundamentally

is

, only cheapens it.

Er....what? No. It's a matter of semantics. Like, does the cop report say "Mafia" or "Not Mafia", or does it say "Town" or "Not Town"? With SKs, etc, those are two distinct sets. Same thing: the cop reports that say "Mafia" vs "Bob is Mafia".

You can argue that your form is correct. That's fine. It's your opinion. I simply disagree vehemently.

Like, take Metropolis: Revisited. M: R had framers, and it had godfathers, and it had a cop. That's fine. Great, thumbs up. Cop knows up-front that a guilty result might not really be a guilty. Cop knows up-front that an innocent result might not really be an innocent. This is all good. (It'd be less good if the setup didn't at least contain the *idea* that it might have godfathers and framers, but it did. So it's fine.)

But if you were going to have the Mixmaster work like that? No. Now the cop has a report that is literally 100% useless. May as well not even have bothered. It's the equivalent of putting a cop into a setup where all of the mafia are godfathers. Cop and godfather are both standard roles, but it begs the question: why bother having the cop to begin with? It's just not good design unless your design is "screw with the players", in which case, y'know, bastard mod.

It's like people who like the idea of "even night sane cop, odd night insane cop". Yes, it's a role, yes, it's deterministic, but it's still just...dumb. If you don't want useful investigative roles, don't have useful investigative roles. Don't give a player an investigative role and pretend that it's useful when it's not.

Telling someone who their report on doesn't "neuter" bus driver; bus driver still fucks with investigative roles because it prevents them from getting reports on who they *want*. It's an immensely powerful role that can make vigs work for the scum, can bypass all forms of protection, can (depending on action resolution) bypass roleblockers, and can neuter investigative roles.

So, yeah. Not seeing your argument.

[Faraday]

Yeah, I agree with Magua. If I were to ever use a re-director I'd tell them their new target. Certainly doesn't make the role pointless.

[ReaperCharlie]

No, because if you redirect a kill, their "target" changes. Their target dies. The NEW target.

Same with investigations. They get the investigation result that they'd have gotten on the NEW target, but without necessarily knowing that it's a different target than they thought they were targeting.

--

Also, most Bus Drivers I've seen can NOT busdrive themselves with anyone else.

Actually, I can't recall ever seeing one that could do that.

--

Like, take Metropolis: Revisited. M: R had framers, and it had godfathers, and it had a cop. That's fine. Great, thumbs up. Cop knows up-front that a guilty result might not really be a guilty. Cop knows up-front that an innocent result might not really be an innocent. This is all good. (It'd be less good if the setup didn't at least contain the *idea* that it might have godfathers and framers, but it did. So it's fine.)

Why would it be less good? They're perfectly common roles in non-Normal games.

--

But if you were going to have the Mixmaster work like that? No. Now the cop has a report that is literally 100% useless. May as well not even have bothered. It's the equivalent of putting a cop into a setup where all of the mafia are godfathers. Cop and godfather are both standard roles, but it begs the question: why bother having the cop to begin with? It's just not good design unless your design is "screw with the players", in which case, y'know, bastard mod.

Meh. I guess anything non-Normal is automatically bastard these days, at least in the current site meta.

--

It's not LYING to the player. It's giving them the result of their new target. They are left to assume for themselves based on what they know.

--

It weakens the cop in the same way that this thread wants to weaken the doc.

[Gammagooey]

The cop sends you a PM-

Investigate hitogoroshi

You send him a result that does not reflect what his PM states. (Example- Each night you may target a player, and I’ll tell you if they’re either town-aligned or mafia-aligned.)
You are lying to the player.

You can screw around with the wording of the role PM to make it so you're not lying but unless you're giving a warning to the players beforehand they shouldn't and very likely won't search for subtle nuances in their role PM that can change the balance of the entire game.

[Faraday]

Well I always say 'Hitogoroshi is Innocent' and not 'Your target is innocent' anyway.

Of course I'm also of the opinion that not differentiating between a 'target didn't go anywhere' and 'roleblock' for trackers is stupid. (it is)

[dramonic]

I use "your target" and not "name", but then again people playing in my games don't expect normal results that often...

"The person you ended up targetting" would be much worse IMO, even if it's more factual(ish).
Also saying the result should always say "name is whatever" is not punishing the PR for claiming. You're not supposed to have to claim if you're playing correctly for the most part, the fact a redirector can void the powers of a role is perfectly normal and/or balanced in my opinion.
As for a killing role, you'd have to be pretty numb to not notice the person you targetted is alive and another random death has occured when the kill amount is stable (outside of bastard mods) as not being redirection.