C9++ Discussion

[yabbaguy]

I'm mostly sure this serves best as a separate thread.

First off, this is awesome how after enough petitioning, C9++ has finally gotten back in full swing and is starting to become a Central Park regular. Also, credit to Fiasco for even devising this setup in the first place - wish he was still on site. :\

The reason I'm bringing this up is if I wonder whether or not this setup can be improved somewhat. The basic principle is so brilliant - the more power Town gets, the more powerful scum get in response. However, there are some facets of the ruleset that are ambiguous or perhaps the subject of individual interpretation. However, I'm wondering if certain aspects can be polished up and whether or not certain idiosyncrasies about the setup are actually pivotal to the game's function.

Some of the talking points I wanted to bring up at least:

*Night Start - more and more we're trying to phase these sorts of games out. Is it necessary to do this out-front, if only to give insight to the 7-letter code that created the setup? Is a Day Start a bad idea?
*Inhibited Scum Reveal

(Mafia flip simply "Mafia" and nothing else)

- this is the rule that many mods manage to bollocks up, in fact I went the whole Marathon edition of this game without blinking an eye at this rule. I guess the logic is that if a Maf Spy is revealed - so many Town roles can get confirmed, perhaps? Is that an issue?
*Millers - should they be naive or told explicitly? Is the 1-3 randomization a good thought, or should it be some fixed quantity? (Fiasco said 3). My thought: maybe even just have it be Sane Cop + Miller - seeing how strange a Miller Backup Roleblocker is?
*Insane Cop + Godfather, what's the result? Does GF always show Innocent, or does Insane always show the opposite (Guilty)?
*SK's "Spy Immune" function - does he have to be notified? Can it just be sent in amongst his actions and left alone?
*Innocent Child - confirm D1 or confirm when they ask to be confirmed by PM?
*Can this become 13P to adhere to the new Mini standard? Does it have to?

Thoughts?

[xRECKONERx]

With the way C9++ is setup now, the partial reveal is necessary for it to not be insanely town-sided. Non-partial reveals confirm way too much, just after one or two phases worth of flips. Innocent Child should probably be auto-confirmed D1 and not get to choose, because the longer they wait to reveal, the stronger town gets, and scum have no actual way of counterbalancing that.

[Magua]

Night Start - more and more we're trying to phase these sorts of games out. Is it necessary to do this out-front, if only to give insight to the 7-letter code that created the setup? Is a Day Start a bad idea?

I don't think this matters enough. I prefer Day start.

*Inhibited Scum Reveal

(Mafia flip simply "Mafia" and nothing else)

- this is the rule that many mods manage to bollocks up, in fact I went the whole Marathon edition of this game without blinking an eye at this rule. I guess the logic is that if a Maf Spy is revealed - so many Town roles can get confirmed, perhaps? Is that an issue?

This is totally an issue. If you remove this and someone flips "Spy", you have just mod-confirmed that there is at most one Vanilla Townie in the game. Think about that. Even someone flipping "Roleblocker" mod-confirms there's at most 3 VTs in the game.

*Millers - should they be naive or told explicitly? Is the 1-3 randomization a good thought, or should it be some fixed quantity? (Fiasco said 3). My thought: maybe even just have it be Sane Cop + Miller - seeing how strange a Miller Backup Roleblocker is?

Naive. Otherwise a D1 Miller claim (confirmed by a flip, if necessary) mod-confirms that there is 1 and only 1 Cop.

*Insane Cop + Godfather, what's the result? Does GF always show Innocent, or does Insane always show the opposite (Guilty)?

Insane should show the opposite. Godfather should not be penalized for being investigated by an insane cop.

*SK's "Spy Immune" function - does he have to be notified? Can it just be sent in amongst his actions and left alone?

I would prefer this to be something the SK sends in ("I want to appear to Spy as blah") rather than something they're notified about. Spy-Immune SK already has mod confirmed information about the setup (no VTs); they don't need to know when or if they've been scanned by the Spy.

*Innocent Child - confirm D1 or confirm when they ask to be confirmed by PM?

D1 confirm.

*Can this become 13P to adhere to the new Mini standard? Does it have to?

Mini standard is a maximum, not a requirement. Changing to 13 players solely because you can seems silly.

[Katsuki]

Think only worthy change on that list is moving to Daystart.

Pretty much, everything Magua said.

[AGar]

Yeah. For the limited reveal, go read RichardGHP's "Elite Scumhunting Unit."

Mafia literally got boned in a fakeclaim because of that, and that shouldn't happen. Similarly, the mafia in Ythan's C9++ got really hurt by the lack of a limited reveal.

Day start is a positive change though. In certain combinations, especially with the botched limited reveals, a town can almost completely break the setup by the start of D2 because you have 3-5 flips to work with. That can be a ton of information positively used in the towns power, and significantly hampers the scums ability to maneuver.

13th player - game is townsided as it is, they don't need an extra get-out-of-jail free card.

Side-note: When's the last time mafia won a non-marathon C9++?

[yabbaguy]

Side-note: When's the last time mafia won a non-marathon C9++?

Pamplona with Nobody Special was a Maf win - and I think the first Mafia flip was blown in that game. That was a Town wreck that was pretty much all my fault.

Then I replaced out as Mafia in the other NS game (Paradise) where a Maf member was dispensed with N0. This sort of stuff shouldn't happen in my opinion - N0 shots shouldn't determine the game - the swing's too much. So I dig a Day Start.

Spy-Immune SK already has mod confirmed information about the setup (no VTs)

That's not right.

Insane should show the opposite. Godfather should not be penalized for being investigated by an insane cop.

You think they should show "Guilty", you're saying?

[xRECKONERx]

I really like the idea of randomizing the setup yet having so many possibilities. I wish there were a way to expand this to other setups as well.

[Vi]

I really like the idea of randomizing the setup yet having so many possibilities. I wish there were a way to expand this to other setups as well.

Define "other setups".

[Magua]

] Spy-Immune SK already has mod confirmed information about the setup (no VTs)

That's not right.

Yes, I conflated the number of Ts in the setup with the number of VTs.

Insane should show the opposite. Godfather should not be penalized for being investigated by an insane cop.

You think they should show "Guilty", you're saying?

For an insane Cop, yes.

Consider if the sane and insane cop both scan someone, and both get the same result ("innocent"), then that's mod-confirmed Godfather right there, regardless of whether it's revealed on death.

And it's silly to me that a Godfather would have to worry about being scanned by an insane Cop.

[xRECKONERx]

I really like the idea of randomizing the setup yet having so many possibilities. I wish there were a way to expand this to other setups as well.

Define "other setups".

IE, taking the mechanic that decides this setup and applying to maybe other roles, or even Large Normals, or something like that.

[Vi]

I really like the idea of randomizing the setup yet having so many possibilities. I wish there were a way to expand this to other setups as well.

Define "other setups".

IE, taking the mechanic that decides this setup and applying to maybe other roles, or even Large Normals, or something like that.

You can't really do this without the Semi-Open framework.

How and ever, you

can

find a way to randomly assign roles within a Semi-Open. After seeing how Semi-Opens get run in practice (moderator has cool idea, designs setup, throws random unrelated power roles in as ~possibilities~) I actually think it would be a cool experiment. The problem is getting the relative assurance of balance that C9++ gives you...

Almost everything in Maf. Holographica was determined randomly but it doesn't translate well to other games. :/

[SleepyKrew]

I'm actually working on something I'm calling C9# at the moment, expect it to be in Open Discussion thread soon. The main idea was to improve on C9++.

[yabbaguy]

cee nine hash?

[SleepyKrew]

Well, I was going for the programming languages.
C evolved into C++(plusplus), which evolved into C#(sharp).
C9-->C9++-->C9#

[yabbaguy]

Figured as much, didn't know how to say it.

[xRECKONERx]

I really like the idea of randomizing the setup yet having so many possibilities. I wish there were a way to expand this to other setups as well.

Define "other setups".

IE, taking the mechanic that decides this setup and applying to maybe other roles, or even Large Normals, or something like that.

You can't really do this without the Semi-Open framework.

How and ever, you

can

find a way to randomly assign roles within a Semi-Open. After seeing how Semi-Opens get run in practice (moderator has cool idea, designs setup, throws random unrelated power roles in as ~possibilities~) I actually think it would be a cool experiment. The problem is getting the relative assurance of balance that C9++ gives you...

Almost everything in Maf. Holographica was determined randomly but it doesn't translate well to other games. :/

That's my main issue: balance. C9++ generally assures balance, and of course it's easy to roll random roles in other games, but the balance is what made C9++ so great.

[Nobody Special]

Side-note: When's the last time mafia won a non-marathon C9++?

Pamplona with Nobody Special was a Maf win -

and I think the first Mafia flip was blown in that game

. That was a Town wreck that was pretty much all my fault.

That is incorrect (unless I somehow ninja-edited and can't find the evidence). The game in question is here.



I agree that a Godfather should not have to worry about a Cop's sanity. Godfather should always be innocent.

I also prefer Day start. IME, the Night start just sucks the life right out of the game.

[yabbaguy]

Sorry about that. I remember you editing in another "full Mafia reveal used" line in another game, thought you were doing it for your own.

I agree that a Godfather should not have to worry about a Cop's sanity. Godfather should always be innocent.

This is disagreeing, I believe. Insane and Sane alike getting Innocent, you're saying? That has the risk of mod-confirming the GF as stated previously.

[Andrius]

*Night Start - more and more we're trying to phase these sorts of games out. Is it necessary to do this out-front, if only to give insight to the 7-letter code that created the setup? Is a Day Start a bad idea?
*Inhibited Scum Reveal (Mafia flip simply "Mafia" and nothing else) - this is the rule that many mods manage to bollocks up, in fact I went the whole Marathon edition of this game without blinking an eye at this rule. I guess the logic is that if a Maf Spy is revealed - so many Town roles can get confirmed, perhaps? Is that an issue?
*Millers - should they be naive or told explicitly? Is the 1-3 randomization a good thought, or should it be some fixed quantity? (Fiasco said 3). My thought: maybe even just have it be Sane Cop + Miller - seeing how strange a Miller Backup Roleblocker is?
*Insane Cop + Godfather, what's the result? Does GF always show Innocent, or does Insane always show the opposite (Guilty)?
*SK's "Spy Immune" function - does he have to be notified? Can it just be sent in amongst his actions and left alone?
*Innocent Child - confirm D1 or confirm when they ask to be confirmed by PM?
*Can this become 13P to adhere to the new Mini standard? Does it have to?

I AGREE WITH MAGUA ON ALMOST EVERYTHING.

I feel like the number of Millers should NOT be random and they SHOULD be told. I understand that the number of millers being random is for the mafia fakeclaiming but still.

Similarly, the mafia in Ythan's C9++ got really hurt by the lack of a dead Ythill.

FTFY

[Magua]

Andrius, you'd save everyone a lot of reading if you just posted "I agree with Magua".

Except for that bit about millers. Aware millers => claimed D1 millers => mod-confirmed cop.

[yabbaguy]

We should probably make some sort of standard then:

*Night Start - more and more we're trying to phase these sorts of games out. Is it necessary to do this out-front, if only to give insight to the 7-letter code that created the setup? Is a Day Start a bad idea?

YES, DAY START.

*Inhibited Scum Reveal (Mafia flip simply "Mafia" and nothing else) - this is the rule that many mods manage to bollocks up, in fact I went the whole Marathon edition of this game without blinking an eye at this rule. I guess the logic is that if a Maf Spy is revealed - so many Town roles can get confirmed, perhaps? Is that an issue?

KEEP IT.

*Millers - should they be naive or told explicitly? Is the 1-3 randomization a good thought, or should it be some fixed quantity? (Fiasco said 3). My thought: maybe even just have it be Sane Cop + Miller - seeing how strange a Miller Backup Roleblocker is?

???

*Insane Cop + Godfather, what's the result? Does GF always show Innocent, or does Insane always show the opposite (Guilty)?

INSANE SHOWS "GUILTY" ON GF (and SK).

*SK's "Spy Immune" function - does he have to be notified? Can it just be sent in amongst his actions and left alone?

MAKE AN ACTIVE ACTION, NO NOTIFICATION.

*Innocent Child - confirm D1 or confirm when they ask to be confirmed by PM?

CONFIRM D1.

*Can this become 13P to adhere to the new Mini standard? Does it have to?

UHH... NO.

[Andrius]

Andrius, you'd save everyone a lot of reading if you just posted "I agree with Magua".

Except for that bit about millers. Aware millers => claimed D1 millers => mod-confirmed cop.

I didn't read your post, bro.
Editing mine now.

[Magua]

<3

[Andrius]

We must be scum together sometime, Magua.
Or Masons.
I prefer the latter.

Except for that bit about millers. Aware millers => claimed D1 millers => mod-confirmed cop.

This does make sense though.

[Pomegranate]

An insane cop gets the opposite result (innocent/guilty) of a sane cop. If a sane cop gets an innocent on a GF, an insane cop therefore gets a guilty.