Why do hydras traditionally get out of thread discussion?

[shaft.ed]

Way back when I had always assumed that hydras were just two people posting under one account. At some point it became ingrained in me that they should get out of thread discussion capabilities. So they're essentially a single vote anytime mason network. I know this causes problems for a number of mods that do not like the unfair advantage.

I was kinda curious where this innate ability to essentially break sitewide game rules came from. And furthermore, if it were removed and hydras were limited to talking amongst their heads in public, would it tip the hydra balance towards being more fair for those mods that do not welcome them?

[JDodge]

Way back when I had always assumed that hydras were just two people posting under one account. At some point it became ingrained in me that they should get out of thread discussion capabilities. So they're essentially a single vote anytime mason network. I know this causes problems for a number of mods that do not like the unfair advantage.

I was kinda curious where this innate ability to essentially break sitewide game rules came from. And furthermore, if it were removed and hydras were limited to talking amongst their heads in public, would it tip the hydra balance towards being more fair for those mods that do not welcome them?

i've been saying this for months, nobody listens

[Quilford]

They get the same Role PM. I don't understand what's remotely wrong with it.

[Nexus]

Would you not be pissed off if 4+ pages of the game thread were taken up with the two hydra heads arguing amongst themselves?

[shaft.ed]

because you are discussing the game out of thread with another person. If I were to have a conversation about a game with my brother and get some advice about it, that's breaking site rules. If I call my account a hydra all the sudden. PROBLEM SOLVED!

[shaft.ed]

Would you not be pissed off if 4+ pages of the game thread were taken up with the two hydra heads arguing amongst themselves?

I'd get a

FAR

better read on the player spot if that happens

And it limits discussion amongst heads away from privilaged information about their role/scumbuddies/power role hunting etcetc


Also lol @ not breaking site rules is less important than annoying a few people

[Hoopla]

They get the same Role PM. I don't understand what's remotely wrong with it.

Would you be cool with me starting a hydra with Glork, Yosarian and Ythill? They don't have to post - it'd just be nice having the freedom to ask those players to weigh in when I need it.

I was kinda curious where this innate ability to essentially break sitewide game rules came from. And furthermore, if it were removed and hydras were limited to talking amongst their heads in public, would it tip the hydra balance towards being more fair for those mods that do not welcome them?

How is that going to work? What if a hydra draws a powerrole? They need to be able to decide between them what to do with their action, which requires communication at night. Even allowing just that wouldn't be a solution though, as what happens when the hydra draws a role with a day action?

There is no way to fix theoretical advantages of hydras other than not allowing them. It's difficult to ban something so widely popular, but I think site rules shouldn't allow exceptions because it's fun or because it helps people keep up with a game.

[Quilford]

...

Anyone can cheat by asking other players about the game.

[Hrezs]

so because its possible to cheat we should allow imbalance? despite the fact that so much of mafia rules are unenforceable

[Fenchurch]

I'd much rather if anyone who wants to hydra, would instead play in a Lovers set-up where each pairing is decided in advance and is public, but they share a role, and can communicate out of thread. They would post on seperate accounts, and probably with seperate votes. To me that would give all the benefits of hydras (ability to discuss with a partner who has the same alignment, and learn from their opinions and playstyle, increased activity in the game, potential to be judged by your partners behaviour) without the frustrations (unfair advantages, internal disagreements).

[shaft.ed]

There is no way to fix theoretical advantages of hydras other than not allowing them. It's difficult to ban something so widely popular, but I think site rules shouldn't allow exceptions because it's fun or because it helps people keep up with a game.

this is a good point. I suppose mods could make a quick topic where all they are allowed to do is post a night action. And they can post nothing but the night action until they post the same one.

Day powers are a bit of a problem though. Could do the same thing i guess. Or just make it first come first serve on any action.


You dont have to ban them, just quarantining them would be fine. I'd even be happy with something as simple as a hydra tag on a user account so they can be easily identified by people out of the loop and then avoided if need be.

[The Fonz]

The whole point of hydras is that they're treated as if they're one player. Since you wouldn't make a single player hearing voices against the rules, equally hydra discussion needs to be possible. Even if 'all they can do is post night actions' there has to be some way of mediating between the heads' preferences, and discussing who to target would inevitably lead into discussion of who's scummy.

I have no problem with the current setup of no hydras in normals and hydras at mod discretion in themes.

[Hoopla]

...

Anyone can cheat by asking other players about the game.

So, you think hydras are a form of cheating, or...?

I have no problem with the current setup of no hydras in normals and hydras at mod discretion in themes.

This isn't the current setup - hydras still exist in normal/open games. I wouldn't complain with that breakdown though.

[VP Baltar]

It's not really braking any site rules. Both players are in the game and the ability to communicate is a mechanic of hydras. You can argue that it skews the balance of the game, as JD does, but you can't say it's breaking any site rules. That's just silly.

[Zachrulez]

Do not talk outside the game thread about an ongoing game

except where allowed to do so by your role.

Likewise, do not use bbcode to hide secret messages - this equates to discussion outside the thread.

Hydras are a clear role related exception. Nice try though.

If you don't want them, ban them as a moderator, or play only with moderators that don't allow them.

[shaft.ed]

hydra is not a role, it is a player account. Nice try though

[Zachrulez]

hydra is not a role, it is a player account. Nice try though

Yeah, it's a player account used by more than one person. The function of Hydras has been clearly defined and accepted by enough of the site's population that it's not going away.

And if you think Mith's going to ban them, consider that him allowing hydras in California Trilogy is one of the big reasons they are as popular as they are today.

[shaft.ed]

I'm not asking they be banned. I would like people to realize what a hydra actually is because I don't think it's something that gets much thought from the player population. I understand they are fun. I had a blast the one game I played in a hydra.

I'd also like for hydras to be better labeled. If that could be a new bell/whistle added to the updates that are making things really cool lately, I'd be a happy camper.

[Quilford]

...

Anyone can cheat by asking other players about the game.

So, you think hydras are a form of cheating, or...?

I'm saying that banning hydras because they break the out-of-game communication rule is absurd

[Yosarian2]

Shaft.ed, by definition, outside the thread conversation is not breaking site rules if it's allowed by the mod, so throwing around the term "breaking site rules" is really a huge a huge red herring here. No one is breaking site rules.

All hydras should be cleared by the mod, and not all mods allow hydras, so a mod that does is allowing outside the thread conversation.

I do like the idea of a hydra that can't talk outside of thread, though. That's interesting, we could try a hydra game like that sometime. At that point, though, you'd probably be better just making it a lovers game; that way when the two heads (or lovers) start arguing, you can at least keep track of who is who.

[xRECKONERx]

Yeah, that's just a lovers setup.

Hydras actually bother me MORE if they talk as two different people.

[zoraster]

Could split the difference and only allow them to night talk.

Still, I'm not a huge fan of hydras in general. For every good experience I've had with them (e.g. Lost Butterfly) I've had way more bad ones.

[inHimshallibe]

I brought up disallowing QT discussion for hydras a while back, got shunned...

[shaft.ed]

I brought this up so long ago...

sorry i just started paying attention again after about...2 years or so

[inHimshallibe]

I brought this up so long ago...

sorry i just started paying attention again after about...2 years or so

edited to reflect, should have been a bit less blunt.


--
Yup, found it. http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=15869

Hydras ought not to have QTs imo. It invalidates the "don't discuss this game outside of the thread" rule. In true hydra fashion, each head has its own mind and its posts should indicate such. A hydra SHOULD have to bicker amongst itself in thread.

I think

all

most hydras are really Player-by-Committee instead of a true Hydra.

EDIT: I have hydra'd before with a QT, so whatevs. Hypocrisy is fun and all that, I think the above would be better than the current model.