Open 716: Making Friends and Enemies [Game Over]

[BuJaber]

VOTE: Vote: Gamma Emerald

Saying "I have not the liberty of selecting anything about my alignment" instead of saying "I have not the liberty of selecting my alignment" suggests his alignment has two components - a side, and a set of people who share that alignment. A VT would be more likely to naturally construct the latter statement.

Doesn't really rule out a masonslip, but the quality of lynching someone who is mason/scum is significantly better than random lynching, so this is where my vote should go for now.

What is happening in this post?
VOTE: popsofctown

@mod @popsofctown would 'pops' be an acceptable nickname?


TRing MD but not for the mason warning. For the prediction in the first post. I've seen day 1 predictions. I've seen page 1 predictions. This is my first post 1 prediction. He's thinking about bragging rights before ANYTHING else. Townie.

Or scum being very very very 'calculating'?

*leaves the building before the boos*

[BuJaber]

Noted

[BuJaber]

MD is mathdino ftr.. I should probably say dino in this game to avoid confusion.

[BuJaber]

TRing MD but not for the mason warning. For the prediction in the first post. I've seen day 1 predictions. I've seen page 1 predictions. This is my first post 1 prediction. He's thinking about bragging rights before ANYTHING else. Townie.

That "prediction" is NAI. It's a joke based on our Team Mafia team.

Well now I feel dumb.

[BuJaber]

@Agent - my vote was semi-serious RVS vote. It doesn't need an explantion. It sounded scummy and "reachy" to me but honestly I didn't understand it fully at the time. Hence the question.

Pops' subsequent posts give a much better impression. Particularly post 139 which gave me a very townie vibe.

I hate verydark's reactions. I hate his self vote. While I agree that it does come from both alignments the timing of the self-vote is just as important as the vote itself. There really is very little motivation for town to put themselves at L-1. Frustrated town who give up self-hammer. Frustrated town who want to make a point self-vote earlier. Self-voting so close to a wagon is terrible.
VOTE: verydark

Sando seems to me like someone trying to look busy. I don't know exactly what he was trying to gain from the mathdino interrogation. It looked like a lot of pedantic questioning on very specific things that seem irrelevant. Also his vote on GL is rather suspicious and I can't figure out the town motivation for it. I disagree that it is townie to turn people's arguments for SRing you against them. In my experience it's what scum tends to do because they are trying to point the spotlight away from themselves.
But the points he makes about waiting to see the consequences of dino's reactions seem genuine and logical. I have a slight scumlean here.

Once math gets the memes/jokes out of his system it will make reading him easier. But for now I'm townreading his reasoning behind pushing the wagon, his wagon analysis, his comments wrt verydark's reactions, and his apparent eagerness to engage with/comment on everyone. None of these things are difficult to fake alone but the combination of them together makes faking them much more difficult and therefore unlikely.

I think gamma is town. He is asking the right questions at the right time. That read becomes more solid if pops flips scum because their interaction does not seem like SvS at all.


I know I'm not going to be the most active regardless of how long the deadline is but I think I've always posted at least once per day. I like to be in multiple games at once and my sleep/work schedule is the opposite of most people in the US. That means my activity level can vary between different days, different games, different dayphases. I do and have intentionally posted less than my average in some games as both alignments for tactical reasons or because I can't be bothered to debate something in the moment but I don't intentionally avoid games. I also never post if I'm not caught up. That is something I'm against in general but when it comes to me personally I'm not even able to do that because I find myself unsure what to say. I also tend to say things in as few as posts as I can. If you scumread me for activity do so with this in mind please.

[BuJaber]

Verydark still looks like a good lynch.

I'm suspicious of how trusting of each other the meme team seem to be. I think at least one of them is likely to be scum and is/are under pressure to look townie in front of them. I'm gonna do a reread tomorrow night and see if I can narrow it down.

[BuJaber]

I'm suspicious of how trusting of each other the meme team seem to be. I think at least one of them is likely to be scum and is/are under pressure to look townie in front of them. I'm gonna do a reread tomorrow night and see if I can narrow it down.

I feel like this is scum trying to break up a townbloc but not willing to go for a specific player yet

also BuJaber why no reaction to my vote on you?

So I'm not only scum but bad scum? That's not a good way to break up a townbloc.

And you're scumreading me on things that are NAI for me. The way to show you that is for me to just flip and for us to play more games together.

I'm suspicious of how trusting of each other the meme team seem to be.

I think this is a big stretch. There are 5 of us, to generalize like this you would need to be able to determine a number of our reads on each other.
I don't think many people have stated many reads in general this game. Can you point to some?

Math has more than once stated he townreads you all.
GuiltyLion and NSG have had a back and forth with him that shows at least an initial level of trust.
IIRC before the recent KMD posts none of you have actually stated your disagreement with math. So it was an easy assumption to make that you all agree with him to some extent.

[BuJaber]

@Kop - pops' 139 shows that s/he's reading along and paying attention to the details and the meaning of posts. So it passes the first test.
Then his/er progression on verydark seems genuine and logical. Starts of with a general comment on expectations from players and how their experience might influence the way they think about things. Then goes specifically into the newbie game experience of both him/er and verydark's and the meta change between the time when they joined and now. Then explains why s/he reaches the conclusion that verydark is likely scum.

In the middle of that s/he comments on gamma's nickname for vdark. I feel that scum who are eager to make a fake case on someone would not stop in the middle of the post to defend the same person from a non-game relevant comment. Scum would likely ignore irrelevant stuff like that because they'd be self-conscious about veering off-topic but more so if they are also in the process of fakung a scumread.

[BuJaber]

Verydark still looks like a good lynch.

I'm suspicious of how trusting of each other the meme team seem to be. I think at least one of them is likely to be scum and is/are under pressure to look townie in front of them. I'm gonna do a reread tomorrow night and see if I can narrow it down.

I think it's Dave.
He said TR'd guilty for 2 posts looking like town without saying what about them looks town.
His only real scumread is on mylonnia which is an easy read to make at the moment.
His posts seems rather detached and passive like he doesn't want to create waves. Several of which are about wording and general things like that that don't require sorting people.

[BuJaber]

Not getting enough "I sense a disturbance in the force" "I feel it also"

What do you mean by this?

[BuJaber]

I forgot to vote VOTE: dave

[BuJaber]

No I have never played with him before unless he has an alt I don't know. I'm not going to take anyone's word for his playstyle who isn't confirmed town. I also don't do meta reads of games I haven't played (cold meta I think people call it) because I feel you miss context that way.
So for now I'm basing it on that stuff being objectively scummy.

[BuJaber]

Not to mention that "objectively scummy" is often used as a synonym for "I'm scumreading them because of playstyle but don't want to admit it."

That may be true but I'm pretty sure I've used it myself before as town.

Anyway good point about the 4 people. So far dave himself, you and Dino. So that's 2 people that count.

But so I'm clear you're saying that it's his playstyle therefore NAI or that it's indicative of his town meta?

[BuJaber]

It's not.

BuJaber thought that I was arguing that the phrasing "objectively scummy" is used by scum

to try to mislynch people because of their playstyle, and he was trying to refute that argument.

see but I think it's valid to think that scum!BuJaber is more likely to assume this than town!BuJaber. I feel like a townie would be more inclined to continue defending their reasoning, rather than jump to defending their alignment.

But my logic doesn't need defending. It's only wrong if dave does in fact do this as either alignment. Replace dave with a random player you've never met. Would I be wrong then?

Also SS's phrasing seemed to imply him attacking my choice of phrase.

I forgot to vote VOTE: dave

BuJaber - what's your current read on verydark? I'm puzzled that you left a leading wagon to make a vanity vote here without giving us an update on your verydark scumread

Nothing has changed on verydark. Game got a little slower so I voted dave to both attempt to test my theory and gauge reactions to a potentially new wagon.

Pops and gamma can you comment on dave?

[BuJaber]

It's not.

BuJaber thought that I was arguing that the phrasing "objectively scummy" is used by scum

to try to mislynch people because of their playstyle, and he was trying to refute that argument.

see but I think it's valid to think that scum!BuJaber is more likely to assume this than town!BuJaber. I feel like a townie would be more inclined to continue defending their reasoning, rather than jump to defending their alignment.

But my logic doesn't need defending. It's only wrong if dave does in fact do this as either alignment. Replace dave with a random player you've never met. Would I be wrong then?

Also SS's phrasing seemed to imply him attacking my choice of phrase.

I forgot to vote VOTE: dave

BuJaber - what's your current read on verydark? I'm puzzled that you left a leading wagon to make a vanity vote here without giving us an update on your verydark scumread

Nothing has changed on verydark. Game got a little slower so I voted dave to both attempt to test my theory and gauge reactions to a potentially new wagon.

Pops and gamma can you comment on dave?

And did you gain what you wanted?

Hard to say for sure because pops and gamma sort of soft-defended him and the rest defended him based on meta. For now I'll assume Dave is town and watch the other 4.

VOTE: verydark

[BuJaber]

See a wagon would have been indicative of scum joining it and dave being town.

But when the reaction is several people all townreading or defending him it's not so black and white.

[BuJaber]

I'm saying it's meaningless. You could have answered my question about dave in that way regardless of your or his alignment. I wasn't accusing you of anything. Just explaining how I didn't get anything particularly useful from voting dave.

[BuJaber]

the bolded line is towny, what are you talking about?

I mean if you want my blessing you can vote me I take it as a compliment when scumreads vote me.

[BuJaber]

I thought he was verydark :/

[BuJaber]

You don't have to I probably shouldn't look at avatars with the corner of my eye and instead read the player name.
And I don't know the comment does seem rather self-conscious but I don't remember you pinging me this game so I'm not going to scumread you for one comment.

-math this is about where I am:

Sando =/= pops
Townlean for sando, probably closer to solid townread for SS

GL, Agent - town

Gamma - townlean

LUV, KMD, Kop - null

Dino, Mylon - scumlean
Dave - scum (But if one of those 3 flips scum the other 2 would look better because I don't think it's likely more than 1 scum is hiding within the meme bloc)

Verydark - scum

[BuJaber]

I usually have a lot more scumreads. I don't know what to do with so many townreads.

[BuJaber]

I'll work on sorting the nulls that's a good step.

Pedit - yes but that's just not usually how I work in the early game.

Usually it's a bunch of nulls and I pick one or two scumreads and push and see what happens. How they react/ how others react.

As in I don't actively try to sort people into town/scum. I find it easier to look for things I find scummy and ignore everything else for as long as I can. If someone becomes a strong townread on the way as the game progresses that's a bonus. Usually means they're being super townie or theur scumgame is insanely good.

[BuJaber]

LUV - I remembered him having more questions. A lot of his good posts aren't questions. More accurate to call them investigative. He is questioning logic and statements others have made to a point where it reads like an interrogation. He's wrong about sando imo but this kind of questionong and dragging out an argument to force the other player to explain more clearly leads to better reads for everyone in the game. Typically anyway. And while there elements of playstyle here (not everyone plays like that) I feel like scum!gamma would have to stop sooner in fear of locktowning his 'target' for everyone else or exposing his partner if he's distancing for show.

Do you see a reason to suspect gamma?

[BuJaber]

I try to play for fun. As such my energy/motivation fluctuates depending on many factors. As I suspect is the case for all players.

Though some players like Dino, may God always bless him with energy, have the ability to take a commanding role in every game regardless of alignment. I am neither like that nor do I aspire to be. Working harder at any particular game =/= more fun.

I simply don't care about surviving in this game. Also none of the reasons people brought forth to scumread me seem objective so I don't know how to refute them anyway. But I understand that if I do get lynched it'll be my fault.

I spend what I feel is the right amount of time/energy for me at this game. Later on in the game this may increase or decrease. But point is if it's not enough then that's just my own limitation for each specific game.

You have a group of players here who have experience playing together and are all very capable in their own way. That undoubtedly means that it will be harder to sort people and harder to make a case for/against them. But just through natural progression of the game we pick up on things. I already feel I know a little bit more about you as a player than I did in page 1.



- LUV: let me check my completed games. No games immediately come to mind.

[BuJaber]

I have no completed games with gamma, scum or not.

[BuJaber]

Plus, he's trying to make this weird sort of push on Gamma who I find to generally be a mislynch target from the beginning.

Erm
What?

[BuJaber]

Y'all are too much.

What a fun game. People scumread and vote me for townreading gamma and then a dude comes in and scumreads me for scumreading gamma.

[BuJaber]

Too trusting of his team mafia team.

Kinda flip flopping on dark and I.

Gut paranoia.

[BuJaber]

@brass - why is it weird to ask someone who is asking me to explain my townread if he is scumreading said townread? I'm trying to determine motives behind his asking.

[BuJaber]

GG town

Thanks for lynching me first because I would have definitely needed to replace out if I wasn't mercifully freed.

[BuJaber]

In day 1 I wasn't specifically trying to break the townbloc. My partner nsg was in the "meme team" so I was WIFOMing the way to her victory. If I got lynched I predicted one of two options A) I wanted the idea that they're all town to be locked in or B) townbloc starts to accuse themselves. Also if I needed to I was giving myself a foundation for bussing NSG later.

Problem is I tend to get mislynched as town so as scum I get nervous about trying to imitate my town game. I need to get better at explaining myself as either alignment.

[BuJaber]

Ahh so sweet .. you guys are just discovering that VT is the best role.