Open 791 | Forest Fire | Game Over

[Farren]

I dreamt i was an arsonist..

was really scary. Fortunately for me, it lasted only for a moment!

hi Ydrasse hi Mena hi Pine hi Dunny hi Gamma hi Guilty hi clidd ! !!!!!!!!!!

VOTE: Farren

(　･`ω･´)

The best hello of all. Aww.

[Farren]

I think Pine is the only person I've played with before. Let the madness begin.

[Farren]

It is a hemorrhagic pleasure to be here, I believe I have played at some point with everyone.

You haven't played with me - although you did replace me in one game.

"Hemorrhagic pleasure" ... is that a reference from somewhere?

[Farren]

I actually rolled scum in the original roll of this setup and it was very scary indeed!

VOTE: Farren
did you roll scum again?

Nope. As much as I would have enjoyed conspiring with you, I definitely breathed a sigh of relief when I saw the reroll.

[Farren]

I love it! I just think you're likely slightly more likely to be scum than anyone else who's posted so far

Intriguing. Any details?

[Farren]

just her tone really

I'd put her tone at friendly right now.

[Farren]

A little paranoia is good for the soul.

[Farren]

Third observation, If Menalque is town he will show that eventually (by being obvtown).

That's all, back later.

Do you consider yourself good at telling the difference between scum|Menalque and Town|Menalque?

[Farren]

sure but it also felt kind of unnatural to me

Okay. I'm not seeing it myself, but I have no experience in what constitutes Ydrasse's natural friendliness, so can't really dispute it. I was more concerned about seeing a "She's friendly, which is scummy" type of argument; yours doesn't fall into that bucket. Moving on.

[Farren]

Second observation (just a feeling) is that I don't think Ydrasse would vote me this early.

Well... she did

i think the implication he was making was that scum!me wouldn't vote him? just missing a word in there.

I like that Ydrasse pointed this out.

[Farren]

I have a very solid plan for winning this game

we treestump all the strongest players so the arsonists can't incinerate them, they carry from beyond the grave, we win?

Listening to the ideas of conftown? When I said "Let the madness begin," I didn't mean we should go *that* far.

[Farren]

I townread Ydrasse and will stake my life to protect him

How exaggerated is this?

[Farren]

@clidd - I think the couple of issues I have with Farren are that a few of his questions don't seem likely to advance the game in a useful way and are either blendy or stirring things - mainly 20 and 72. I also think the soft defense of Ydrasse may be a WK

Purpose of 20 - an excuse for engaging clidd, specifically. I think I'm going to need extra interactions with him to be able to read him properly.
Purpose of 72 - I didn't like the confidence level that 70 implied - at least if the post was sincere. But I did like the ... brashness, I guess? I was trying to figure out a way to divorce the two, figure out which is more indicative. Based on Gamma's answer, I'd say the brashness - which is a small plus.

As far as defending Ydrasse goes: describing her as "Friendly" was not a defense. It was more a probe on Menalque to see if he was advocating for "Friendly = Scummy," - which he was not. The only other post - 62 - yes, that's a small plus to Ydrasse, as it's something I'd noticed as well. Why would you think that constitutes white knighting?

[Farren]

Farren doesn't look very friendly and the tone presented so far is being more questioning, which I do not assimilate to scum.

I think he would care about image maintenance and post filler-friendly things as scum in this initial stage.

Image maintenance - yup, I'd care about that as scum.
Whether or not I'm posting filler-friendly stuff is more of a mood thing / familiarity thing than an alignment thing.

[Farren]

By the way, did you get any impression from their fos on you ?

There's not much to tell from the generic "awkwardness" / tonal pings. It's a pretty common accusation, and it's pretty common for either Town or scum to pick up on it and say something about it. So nothing on Morning Tweet or Menalque.

Ask me again after GuiltyLion responds to me. His was the only one that went into depth.

[Farren]

So if I'm getting this right, you asked clidd the question about his opening in 20 with the explicit purpose of getting extra interactions with him?

And not just that, but describing Ydrasse as friendly was actually to see whether or not Mena was equivocating friendly with scummy.

...i wish i had that much direction in my opening posts

Cold and calculating is how I play. At least up until something clicks and I go full-bore Inquisitor. Usually coincides with becoming conf-town, if and when that happens. One of the reasons I prefer Open or semi-Open setups, and part of the reason I signed up to play this setup in particular.

[Farren]

while it's hypocritical to say that like... activity =/= alignment it does feel like the towniest people right now are the people posting the most right now?

Why would this be hypocritical?

Activity doesn't equal alignment, true, but that doesn't mean there's zero correlation.

Demotivation and/or IRL busy-ness can cause a lack of posting. The latter is totally NAI. The former can be NAI - but isn't *always* NAI.

[Farren]

Gamma, pine, dunn all null.

Farren is still bit more towards scum, I think. But if my townreads are right, then I think this is winning already.

From where I'm standing, you being correct about your townreads (and Town yourself) means all the scum are in your null pile. How much of your townreads (both quantity and quality) are based on people scumreading me?

[Farren]

What makes you suppose he's right on all his townreads?

If by suppose you mean "entertain the possibility" - have to consider all possibilities. That includes Town|Menalque with 100% good Town-reads this early in the game.
If by suppose you mean "believe that he's correct" - I would be surprised if the above were true. Scum|Menalque could have 100% accurate "reads" easily. Assuming Town|Menalque, from his PoV ... pick four out of eight players, hit zero scum ... about a 14% chance that he's right if he did it randomly from his PoV. From my PoV, I know he's excluded one member of Town from his townreads - I don't know if that changes things from a mathematical perspective or not. I don't think it does, as even a correct answer will necessarily exclude two people.

Skill can improve chance. But this early in the game, I don't think any player - no matter how skilled - is going to *significantly* improve those odds.

[Farren]

I think Morning is town.
I think Clidd is town.
I think ydrasse is probably town.
I think GL is probably town, but actually maybe a little weaker than the other three.

Gamma, pine, dunn all null.

This seems opportunistic if farren is town.

Usually when I see "opportunistic" it's referring to someone jumping on a common scum wagon. That doesn't seem to apply here - could you explain further?

[Farren]

That’s possible. Err my townreads aren’t very based on people SRing you at all? I guess GL is the one that’s most influenced by that.

Good answer. If you'd indicated a lot of reliance on that, I'd be worried. If nothing else, that Rising Star badge tells me you're more likely to fall towards the skilled end of things - and if you were basing your reads on a single point that I know to be NAI, that wouldn't mesh well.

Definitely means I want to figure you out sooner rather than later, though. That's okay, though; I like a challenge.

[Farren]

You put all the low posters in your null pile, which is actually just your scum pile but you're not calling it that

I'll take this as an answer to my earlier question.

Why does null pile equal scum pile in this case? He's made it clear the only person in his scum pile right now is me.

[Farren]

Farren, do you have any reads yet?

Leaning Town on clidd and you. Gun to my head, I'd say Dunnstral and GuiltyLion for scum - but my D1 read quality tends to be utter garbage. At least in my last game, the scum were all hiding in the middle of my thoughts by the time D1 came to a close. People who were being active, but not *really* active - people who were participating, but not shining. Probably means I should be looking more at ... Gamma Emerald, Ydrasse, Morning Tweet. And I'm forgetting someone ... Pine. I'd put Pine in the bottom bucket. And I know why I'm doing that, and I hate it.

So: let Dunnstral and GuiltyLion percolate for the time being, poke them from time to time, work on the middle three. Wait for Pine to become more present.

VOTE: Morning Tweet

Going off of memory, Morning Tweet, you've made less of an impression on me than Gamma and Ydrasse, despite you scumreading me. Is that a me thing or a you thing, do you think?

[Farren]

By the way, part of me thinks that maybe Town!Lion would open the game with a vote on Menalque/me/Ydrasse to sort us early, but this is a scant assumption. Not if our past game would have any effect on him. I don't know.

Given the first roll of the game - with a me / GuiltyLion scumteam - how do you think that would affect this?

[Farren]

I am present; this is my last day of workplace insanity for the summer. It's all downhill starting tomorrow.

I am glad to hear this.

I seem to recall the game we played together, you were also very busy and ultimately didn't stick around. And you were Town, I think.

(cheats and checks) Yup. So I'm hoping you'll be able to dazzle us with your presence later.

[Farren]

I guess the reason I called it WKing is that I don't see where it leads to nor stems from reads on Menalque or Ydrasse. I can see how those questions were meant to probe Menalque, but then you backed off of it in 52. so I felt absent of any real sense of your read on either of them, it felt to me more like "participating to participate" type posting rather than an earnest push on Menalque or defense of Ydrasse.

What I think of when I think of "earnest push" - either an active case of "This person is scum and here's why," or active questioning with repeated follow-ups. Basically, what I meant earlier when I was talking about becoming an Inquisitor. Barring a clear mechanical reason to do so, if I'm doing the former on D1, that's when you should be very concerned about me - either I'm scum, or I've gone completely off the rails. Or both.

The latter would make more sense, but my particular line of inquiry was satisfied. Trying to probe a tone read on D1 is pretty pointless, especially when I don't have much familiarity with the player list. Even with tone reads on me - I at least know what I'm thinking, so I've got *something* to work with there.

I've described myself as "cold and calculating." That applies to both my townplay and my scumplay. Do you think I'm representing myself accurately when I say that? If no, is it because I'm scum and deliberately trying to cloud the image of who I am, or because I'm Town and just not very self-aware? Or for some other reason?

[Farren]

Personally, my town-lock on him is basically due to the depth of thought that he had about my meta, which sounded to me as extremely genuine.

how do you think scum!Menalque would approach your slot, his thoughts about your meta have nothing to do with his alignment. this is a bs reason for a townread and I especially don't like that it comes right after he softened up on you

VOTE: clidd

Clidd, were you referring to me or Menalque? I had thought you were referring to me.

GuiltyLion: does it matter how Clidd answers this question?

[Farren]

I don't have enough of a sense on you to accurately assess whether you are "calculating" or not at this stage, but I don't see why you'd lie about it as either alignment

I think you do feel kinda stiff/formal to me so that may explain the bad early game vibes

I've given a possible reason why scum|Farren might deliberately misrepresent himself - image maintenance.

And thinking on that, I'm now realizing how you came to the conclusion that clidd was talking about Menalque. Menalque's meta-argument on clidd: that scum|clidd knows he posts differently and thus is trying to explain that away to divert a meta-attack. (Is this correct?)

So scum|Farren could be doing something in the same general vein here - aware that he posts differently as scum vs. Town, and thus trying to portray his meta in general as closer to his scum-meta to throw off suspicion.

Do you think "participating to participate" fit in with "cold and calculating?"

[Farren]

If you are referring to a past game, where you two were scum, depending on the date he would be more inclined to vote for you first if the impression of that game was bigger than the past with me/Ydrasse/Menalque.

As I don't read minds, I don't find it so suggestive.

No, this was a reference to the re-roll of the game before it started. Initially, I got a scum role with GuiltyLion as my partner. So this isn't ancient history - this is fresh in the present.

[Farren]

these things all point to it being about Menalque, no? Why would these comments refer to you, you didn't really speak much or at all about clidd's meta whereas Menalque was invoking it quite explicitly?

it definitely matters if it was about you and not Menalque

Last sentence of 193

The same is true for Farren, as his scumread is not fixed. If you are not townreading Menalque, just engage with him and clarify your doubts (in good faith).

Personally, my town-lock on him is basically due to the depth of thought that he had about my meta, which sounded to me as extremely genuine.

Bleh. I think I misread 193. Yeah, your interpretation makes more sense.

[Farren]

Clidd I believe has a higher chance of being town from the way he's responding to Mena/GL -- I'm near certain he's genuinely frustrated (177), his reads remind me of previous games with him..

Pine was not present for the first day of the previous game I played with him, i believe this is normal.

Sometimes i give a ton of reads at the beginning, but this game i haven't really as much because i feel i'll be biased to townreading those who have been active thus far. I'm waiting for a more complete picture. Oh, also it's not a scumread I just retained my vote on you without commenting on it to give the illusion of extra pressure (i have a fear of having early scumreads)

I'd take this as an answer of "thinking it's a you thing" - meaningful content combined with a self-assessment rather than turning it back around on me. Plus denying the scumread - which is fair.

Why the fear of early scumreads?

[Farren]

This is somewhat of a stretch, i feel clidd may possibly just wants Mena to be town, so he began with that conclusion and imagined what town!Mena's mindset is and then applied it. Trying to explain townreads is like that sometimes. i am finding the lack of backing down on this read despite GL contesting it to be somewhat towny. I think that clidd truly believes in the tell, strongly, and doesn't get why GL isn't getting it. Perhaps scum!clidd backs down, or at least makes the read weaker?
Alternatively, scum!clidd sees that Mena townreads him, so he mega townbins Mena just so he can pocket someone who townreads him back. Perhaps this is what GL sees. I'll keep thinking

(quote in middle snipped)

That was posted ... about 22 hours ago. I'm curious to see if you've elaborated on this further since then.

[Farren]

Hoooo boy are you about to be disappointed

I'd rather overestimate someone than underestimate them.

[Farren]

From where I'm standing, you being correct about your townreads (and Town yourself) means all the scum are in your null pile. How much of your townreads (both quantity and quality) are based on people scumreading me?

Why would they be?

Overreliance on the strength of an incorrect read. Or if the reads were made up. Either of which would be problematic - the former would indicate I couldn't put any faith in their accuracy; the latter would indicate scum.

[Farren]

This reads like a scumpost. "definitely" is a bit much if scumming with GL would've been fine. Lady doth protest too much methinks

No ladies here, sorry.

Check out my last scumgame here, and see if you still think "definitely" is unwarranted. Brief summary: it went about as poorly as it's possible for a scumgame to go, with me getting eliminated D1 and my partner following suit the next day. Plus an extra helping of toxicity to boot.

[Farren]

There's just this repeated theme of clidd posting things that seem like poor sketches town thought patterns that are actually unlikely for me to think in that way as town.
This post is actually a logical failing that may be scum indicative. MT posted analysis of clidd's behavior, not just a summary of clidd's alignment; he's conflating the two.

If you give me 3x+4=28, and I say "it's eight", you can say Isis knows prealgebra, or she has an answer key. If I say
3x+4-4=28-4
3x=24
3x/3=24/3
x=8
You don't say "Isis either knows prealgebra or has an answer key". It's demonstrated I know prealgebra whether or not I have an answer key.
If clidd read Tweet's reasoning and the analysis was sound he should be able to say Tweet is good at reading him, unqualified. He's sprinkling "unless they're scum" into his posting as one often does as scum and has managed to do it gratuitously here.

Math is absolute. Mafia isn't. The answer to your math question will always be 8; the answer to a Mafia analysis is rarely that straightforward.

Do you know if clidd specifically does that as scum, or is that a general tell?

[Farren]

UNVOTE: Morning Tweet
VOTE: Gamma Emerald

I was going to switch to Ydrasse next, but I saw something that I thought had ... a connection, I guess? ... to a part of the gamestate, and I want to see if it develops on its own without me poking at it first.

Gamma, I saw one brief moment where you put yourself out there - and then you withdrew. Got anything else like that?

[Farren]

"doesn't understand anything" wouldn't necessarily go hand in hand with "used her red role PM." It's possible for scum to analyze as well. They have the advantage of knowing what the correct conclusions are in advance - but that doesn't mean they can't walk through the same steps to try to give credence to their agenda.

The short version, without reference to the analogy: I don't consider the tell of "Saying I think X is Town (but could still be scum)" to have much value, but would give it more value if clidd specifically had a history of doing it.

[Farren]

You are like, agreeing with me
That is why it is so unnatural for clidd to say if Tweet is scum she isn't analyzing. Scum can still analyze. It'd be analysis either way.

But I didn't say that she couldn't do analysis as scum.

My observation is that she is on the right track for having correct reads or is just scum and already knows my alignment, so it would be easy for her to find reasons to have me as a townread.

Exactly. It makes it easier to come up with analysis if one has a predetermined conclusion they want to reach.

That does not mean that's what happened here. But I don't think pointing that out is scummy.

[Farren]

I mean if I'm eating a red herring once or even twice, I still thing clidd's entire post record here is all sorts of bad pings. Up to and including wanting Pine's help solving rather than like wanting Pine to move off truenull since he still hasn't participated in the game yet

My first reaction here was that you and I have very different ideas of what constitutes scumminess. I interpret that as a means of trying to prod Pine back into the game. But I think I see your angle here - is it seeing knowledge of Town|Pine?

[Farren]

first

Greetings, tea leaves.

[Farren]

i was too lazy to find the tree flavor in the OP and only knew it from my role PM
I don't like when I am trying to tunnel someone and then their slot plausibly townslips D:

Or maybe I was right the first time. What townslip?

[Farren]

I'm slightly interested in how you used two posts to reiterate the fact you're a tree and don't need to be worried about getting eliminated -- if you're an experienced player, then trying to forge a newbie townslip by claiming tree immediately would probably be the way to go

i just-- you realize that trees are stumped after death, meaning you don't have to worry about wasting time on a reread since you'll always be helpful. you clearly know what you're talking about

wouldn't you then also have realized that trees shouldn't claim?

If this was the townslip, I don't see it as one. Plus to Morning Tweet here.

[Farren]

no

I'm pretty sure the error was that there was 3 scum. GL and I both had Farren as our partner. that's why i made the face at farren during my RVS vote (・ω<)

While I had GuiltyLion specifically as mine. And here I was thinking it was a clever ploy of some sort.

[Farren]

I mean if you think it's a forged townslip you need to murder it, I still think the slot is scummy. I bought into it. But maybe I shouldn't.

For some reason I feel like 342 is a scummy post if it's not catching scum but I don't feel very able to articulate why.
Probably how it's such a stinging accusation so gently worded?
Which might be a tweet thing and have to do with me scumreading her every game, but it might not have to do with that, what can I do about it.

I don't think it's a townslip or a forged attempt at a townslip. To me, a townslip is where a Town shows ignorance of something that scum would have to be knowledgeable of.

For example: when I got that scum PM, I noted that this game didn't have daytalk. I'm used to games that have daytalk and had assumed that this game followed suit, so I made a note to myself to "slip" that I thought we had daytalk. Voila - forged townslip. Then I got a Town PM on the second roll, and the plan was wasted.

Here, that's not what happened. tea leaves demonstrated knowledge of the flavor and rules. That's available in the rules post. NAI.

[Farren]

I thought it was a very thoughtful, methodical approach to playing the game. But i have no reason to believe Farren only does this as scum.

at the moment (or at least during that post) i was honestly taken back by the deliberateness of his posts. There was part of me that goes "Really, you had all that planned out?" but I dont quite see why scum!Farren would feel the need to over explain his minor interactions.

And im guessing from the way Farren explains in some of his later posts, he has a tendency to play like this (although I havent checked)

Correct. There's usually a point in the game where I shift styles. If I become conftown, that tends to trigger it. But my ability to deliberately switch it is one-way only; I can deliberately try to play more mechanically and methodically, but I can't deliberately shift in the other direction. It just happens at some point.

[Farren]

I've townread Menalque both times I played against him as scum in the past, soooo I don't have a great track record with reading him. and I was a little uneasy whether scum was scumreading clidd slot with me.

I also think it's kinda wonky that Menalque made a bunch of noise about clidd but wound up townreading him, then you come in and immediately reverse course and go back to pushing him, meanwhile both of you indicated suspicion of Farren but no real action there

What do you define as real action?

[Farren]

395 looks like it's saying you *are* cognizant of the gamestate, and is reinforced by her agreement of your assessment in 396.

Your second question is a good one, though.

[Farren]

Farren ignored my question.

Sorry; what question was that? I missed it.

[Farren]

What happens when you become conftown Farren? Do you change your avi to a cat one?

Ah, this one. No avatar changes, no. But I generally start becoming less mechanical and more inquisitorial. More confidence, whether warranted or not. I'm more likely to try to actively lead.

PEdit: Inquisitors question - but they generally do so with a specific goal in mind - getting their target to break and slip up, or confess.

[Farren]

And my apologies. Please call me out if I miss any other direct questions asked in good faith.

[Farren]

you're not going to be my font of memes for this game, are you?

As in providing them? Insert hysterical laughter here.

As in unwittingly serving as a source for them? Whatever floats your boat.

[Farren]

can you cite the games you looked at? I've played with Ydrasse twice now (once where she was scum and once where she was town) and she feels completely different than both games.

Can you elaborate on the differences here? Between Town/Scum/Here|Ydrasse?

[Farren]

Why did i devote so much time to the Isis read despite it being meta and therefore garbage? i was hoping modding a game with her in it will give me 100% read accuracy (since previously I'm maybe 1 for 3)

(((it didn't though)))

Meta's not garbage.

It's a tool. It doesn't produce foolproof results. But it can be indicative at times. Sometimes it can be indicative of the lengths people will go to to get results.

I was starting to waver on Isis; this makes me less inclined to do that.

[Farren]

Thinking the way Farren speaks is just him. I think there was one or two posts I liked from him early. I see he interpreted the tea leaves' 'townslip' similarly to how I did at first. Wonder what he'll think now

About tea leaves' Tree claim? I'm still holding it as NAI. I townread clidd, though, and haven't seen any reason to scumread tea leaves, so it hasn't really impacted my read there.

[Farren]

I guess the Lion and Dunnstral are my picks for the arsonist right now because Gamma's last few posts were ok.
VOTE: GuiltyLion

What about Gamma's posts were okay?

[Farren]

Question for both Gamma Emerald and Dunnstral: neither of you have voted at all yet. Why not? We're over halfway through D1.

[Farren]

Tonally they just seemed good I guess they didn't feel fake.

Hard to argue with tone. But I'm definitely not seeing it. Can you elaborate?

[Farren]

I agree with you it isn't garbage. Meta absolutely destroys my scum game, or at least i assume it would cause I havent been scum in ages.

But i feel like when i use meta as reasoning for a read, it turns off a lot of people. That and sometimes it feels like meta is very interpretive, you can find things that prove your point while ignoring the rest if you're not careful (or if ur scum) -- and people are probably not going to hassle to do their own research so they largely just have your word to go off of.

It has its place though

That's definitely something you have to watch out for with meta-arguments: cherry-picking.

Meta's at its best when it's fighting arguments like "Town|Morning Tweet wouldn't do X!" - "Wrong; here's an example from a previous game of Town|Morning Tweet doing X."

I don't recall any cases of someone just flat-out lying about meta, but cases where people have an axe to grind and use meta to support it are another story.

[Farren]

hi i have not been very active lately and i am sorry for that!

uh, to explain why i might feel/be acting different: it's more of a comfort thing than anything else? i feel at ease with the playerlist + the game as a whole right now so i'm more prone to like... be sort of chit-chatty and easygoing. it's probably not the best for like, finding scum but i'm also prioritizing my own enjoyment lmao. that and not having as much time as i would like to really go through this.

I can definitely understand this.

Do you find yourself frequently *not* at ease with the player list and/or gamestate?

[Farren]

as either alignment, it's these kinds of post I expect from Ydrasse, a bunch of references to things going on, several paragraphs with lots of different thoughts and points, and kind of a straightforward approach to arguing. The difference I'm feeling here is that I haven't seen these types of posts from Ydrasse yet really, she's posting more casually and friendly.

It might be her just feeling more comfortable on the site and letting more of her personality out, maybe emulating some other players she's seen/read (I kinda feel like she's channeling more of a skitter vibe in this game), but do you have a sense of the difference I'm trying to point to? I know I just lazily grabbed one post from each game but if you do an ISO dive you can see it, there's just a lot more to-the-point content, here it feels like she's more chatty and peppering her posts with exclamation points and faces

Yes, I can see a tonal difference between the posts you cited and here|Ydrasse.

Her explanation in 516 felt honest to me; it resonates with how I feel when I'm in a familiar playlist and/or an unusually good mood.

[Farren]

if Ydrasse scumreads me, she should be welcoming more votes on me, not questioning them. It feels she's trying to stir up Tea Leaves vs GL more than actually interested in executing me today

I can understand questioning scumreads, in the sense of testing the read. I'd understand wanting more votes too - even if she's not interested in executing you, more votes means more pressure which means more opportunities to test you. Regardless, I don't consider that sort of behavior inherently scummy.

Trying to stir up an argument is a lot closer to inherently scummy. At least, in the vein of "Let's get X and Y to fight." Are you saying that's happening here, or am I misinterpreting you?

[Farren]

Looking at the Newbie game you linked. Birkhoff (the scum in question in the Newbie game) did a total 180 from literally one post to the next, going from a solid, emphasized, repeated fangs-in-your-throat approach to "Why can't this be TvT?" I would not describe Ydrasse's behavior as "pretty similar" - there's too much difference in magnitude.

[Farren]

On the other hand, seeing Ydrasse's behavior as potentially inciting something between you and tea leaves is a reasonable interpretation given those posts you linked.

P-Edit: The connection was her post in 285. Thinking of open-mindedness as being a Townie trait. I've forgotten who I wanted to check that against, though ... memory says it was either you or Isis, but I'd have to go looking through ISOs to verify. Will do that now.

[Farren]

Bleh. Either it wasn't one of you two, or I'm fundamentally misremembering it. What I thought I remembered was someone saying something about open-mindedness, or something similar, being scummy in general.

[Farren]

if nobody's biting at Ydrasse I could go for Dunn. I don't think I want an execution in tea leaves/MT/Isis

Why Dunnstral over Gamma or Pine?

[Farren]

Those positions make sense for Dunnstral and Pine.

I do not understand your townread on Gamma Emerald. I liked 70 and 77. You initially mentioned your read of Gamma in 99; I can see a townread at that point. Has anything since then influenced it?

[Farren]

how good does your mood have to get for me to get memes

Drugged.

[Farren]

Farren asks a weird question over here because he's asking about this townread saying he doesn't understand it despite saying he liked and agreed with mentions of it precious.

I think that having a townread on Gamma at that point in the game made sense. Not having re-evaluated that town read between then and now is what I don't understand.

[Farren]

town!dunnstral could just stop lurking, scum!dunnstral risks exposing his alignment if he posts more. Pretty basic.

weak case

Weak as in kinda indicative but not really, or weak as in fundamentally bad?

[Farren]

i re-evaluated and gamma seems very towny

*puts Isis in the line behind GuiltyLion*

[Farren]

Which is closer: "too scummy to be scum;" "doesn't care if he lives or dies?" Or are both wrong?

[Farren]

Former means first; inverse survivalism means last. Is it both?

[Farren]

UNVOTE: Gamma Emerald
VOTE: GuiltyLion

[Farren]

No wait you're going to think I'm scummy for not wanting to pressure Farren.

VOTE: Farren

Does that concern you?

[Farren]

aside from conspiracy

and marker

and why gun

i have good reads

That's not exactly helping your case.

[Farren]

I hope this doesn't indicate that it is perceptible that I am drunk rn

I am tryna be a cool cucumber and not show any of it

Could go for being a pickle.

[Farren]

but i hate tea leaves so much that i want to stump her and then cheat on her

Can't stump scum. Just kill them. What happened to that confidence about scum|tea leaves?

[Farren]

If you take an axe and bisect an arsonist, you don't get a talking head. You get a bloody mess.

Fortunately, blood make good fertilizer.

[Farren]

It beats the alternative.

PEdit: Right now, I think there's one in GuiltyLion / Gamma. I don't think they both are.

If it's GuiltyLion, I think we can take Dunnstral off the chopping block entirely.

[Farren]

Started out with one memorable moment and then faded from there. Not voting; didn't care for his explanation. Too opaque.

Argument against: I seem to be the only one who feels that way. There have been times where I've been right and everyone else was wrong, but that's usually more of a late-game thing.

[Farren]

111 didn't feel like s/s interaction.

PEdit: @Ydrasse

[Farren]

I did not see anything in the scum PT beyond the mod's opening post before it disappeared on me.

I'm going to sleep on 698. The closest I can think of right now for scum agenda there is generic stuff, value zero.

UNVOTE: GuiltyLion

[Farren]

Apparently I don't logic very well first thing in the morning either. First thing I thought of on re-reading 698: what about if scum|Gamma was trying to protect scum|Ydrasse?

Answer: Possible, but that would also mean Town|GuiltyLion, because there are only two scum.

And on re-look, GuiltyLion addresses that possibility as well, thinking it beyond most players' scumrange.

Scum has to push someone. Scum|GuiltyLion's rapidly running out of potential partners, though. Creating too many not-partners-with-him associations. I don't think he does that as scum. Not going to re-vote there.

Now I have to figure out who to vote. Breakfast first.

[Farren]

VOTE: Ydrasse

[Farren]

Anyone out there?

[Farren]

Puzzling over the lack of activity right now. You?

[Farren]

VOTE: Ydrasse

[Farren]

There's multiple reasons, some of which are going to have to wait until later to explain.

Part of it, though, is trying to figure you out specifically. Pine didn't really contribute anything beyond an RVS vote for Ydrasse.

Making you aware of that will probably change things, but time for dilly-dallying is running out.

[Farren]

728 at least made me think you just had missed the vote, so had to rule out that possibility.

[Farren]

What do you mean by self-narrating (707), and how is it a scumtell?

[Farren]

The issue I have is your need to editorialize what you’ve said over and over though
The post directly before I voted is a key example

Would this be another example of "the gentlefolk doth protest too much?"

[Farren]

Yeah I think I can get behind the idea of this being scum for trying to look town
They way they’re trying to work with the trust tell thing is telling with this

What you described in 759 was not a trust tell. Adding part of 595 for context ...

If you would never roll scum why do you need a contingency plan for if you did?

Yes I would admit I'm scum and

hope everyone thought I was joking

because townies claim scum sometimes.

(underlining added)

Trust tells require that a player do a specific action as a particular alignment with the purposes of proving their alignment by only doing the action as that alignment - and then doing so repeatedly over multiple games. That's definitely not what's happening here; even if it applies to this game at all, it'd be an attempt at concealing alignment, which is the precise opposite of what a trust tell seeks to accomplish.

What gives?

[Farren]

That would require completely ignoring the underlined part. Telling the truth in an unbelievable fashion is an effective way of lying.

[Farren]

(that was a response to MT, not Isis.)

[Farren]

Clearly reverse psychology.

/s

[Farren]

Bell, how much of your tea leaves read is based on tea leaves and not clidd? If any significant amount, could you elaborate?

[Farren]

Even if you accepted this as a totally sincere commitment to future scum|tea leaves, it would still mean tea leaves is Town here.
If it's just fluff, then it's no trust tell of any sort.

An argument that starts with "tea leaves is Town" and ends in "tea leaves is scum" seems like it's bad faith, unless it shows that assuming the former leads to a contradiction.
This doesn't feel like it went with assuming fluff.

PEdit: @Gamma

[Farren]

And yeah I understand the point about “it wasn’t a trust tell in context”, but it came off as that so I poked it as if it were one, and rather than stand their ground, tea leaves backpedaled. That’s the key issue I think should be focused on, that backpedal action.

Okay. This is the one thing I thought could come from a town mindset. Twisting things a little to apply pressure.

[Farren]

Gamma's out of the pool for now. Ydrasse / tea leaves / Dunnstral remain.

[Farren]

Same with Farren he does some good solving but sometimes it just looks fake in a way.

If you think of "unfiltered" as genuine, then this is understandable.

[Farren]

Why are you filtering yourself?

It's natural, at least when I'm writing.

The question with me is never, "am I filtering what I say?" The answer to that is always "yes," regardless of my alignment or even if I'm in a Mafia game at all.

The question is, "how much am I filtering what I say?" Picture it as a dial with no off position. The best it can get is "Low."

[Farren]

This was stuff that I found fake early on. I gotta run so this'll have to do!

Which tells me your radar for detecting these things is faulty. Especially 121.

[Farren]

in general you do these little things like post "thinking about if i should omgus or not" which seem performative. i don't get the need to announce stuff like that specifically instead of just.. doing it?

Thematically, this sounds similar to what Bell thought you were doing - self-narrating. What's the difference?

[Farren]

Clearly tea leaves must kill us all to stop this from spreading.

[Farren]

Whats Dunnstral at?

I think that's E-1.

Morning Tweet, GuiltyLion, tea leaves, Ydrasse?

[Farren]

Right now tally looks like:

Dunnstral - 4 (Morning Tweet, GuiltyLion, tea leaves, Ydrasse)
Ydrasse - 2 (Bell, Farren)
tea leaves - 2 (Isis, Gamma Emerald)
Not Voting - 1 (Dunnstral)

Unofficial, blame me for errors.

[Farren]

I don't want to discuss whether or not the firefighter should counter a scum fake-claim unless we actually get a claim.

That being said, speedhammering someone that flips firefighter will be subject to death by axe. That is all.

[Farren]

Trying to vote the mod will be subject to a confused look.

[Farren]

Farren hasn’t been very vocal about ydrasse?

This is true. I haven't.

[Farren]

GuiltyLion, maybe?

PEdit - @Morning Tweet

[Farren]

Scum with Farren trying to ignore calling him out in my "judging motivations for votes" post? Or scum that just has a jumbled mindset

Did I miss something you were expecting a response to?

[Farren]

Yes.

[Farren]

It's going to be wacky trying to find the last scum if Dunn is scum. But at least that way we'll have more chances to do so.

PEdit: Agendas get a bad rap. Saving the forest is a perfectly serviceable agenda, thank you very much.

[Farren]

Don't you dare.

[Farren]

Stop that at once. I forbid this! You're townreading me for the wrong reasons!

[Farren]

isis + farren + mt are my townblocc right now, you're slightly below them but not in the realm of "i am worried" right now

bell is floating more below that, i think the reasons for pushing on me aren't good but i don't scumread it either

poe boils down to dunn/tea/lion rn

p-edit: yes, where is it from?

Why am I above Bell in your ranking?

[Farren]

Nor will I be changing mine from Kid.

She's red. Color of fire. Don't care. Not changing. Pretend like it's NeoFio or something.

[Farren]

Dunnstral's passed into prodding range already, and he'd pass into outright replacement range before the deadline hits.

I'd argue an extension should be granted in the case of Dunnstral not returning at all.

[Farren]

UNVOTE: Ydrasse

I'm not counterclaiming that, but I also want to make sure everyone has a chance to do so before we eliminate anyone.

[Farren]

The device I'm on can't see tea leaves's picture.

[Farren]

Adding 24 hours to the deadline.

I'm assuming this means more like 28 hours left.

[Farren]

My post recommended that conditional on Dunnstral not showing up. Dannflor's didn't say anything about the extension being conditional.

[Farren]

The vote reasoning makes sense in a vacuum; voting for the one potential counter-claimant does not.

Starting a new wagon when she's one of two main alternatives, though - that doesn't seem like scum-oriented thinking, unless the team is exactly her / tea leaves.

[Farren]

@Farren That's not a likely team. Leaf+Ydrasse.

Why's that? Specifically that team, or is this another Gandalf invocation?

[Farren]

Interactions don't look like scum on scum to me.

Reviewing interactions now.

[Farren]

Sorry, my scum PT vanished into the ether.

[Farren]

I guess to elaborate Farren,
I don't see much hesitance in/occupation with Ydrasse when responding to Ydrasse.
Likewise he seemed to be getting increasingly nervous as Ydrasse pressured him and scum partners don't usually get nervous when pressured by their scum partners.

That is a good argument. At least the latter part; a lack of hesitance in interaction wouldn't do it.

[Farren]

Isis, were you trying to distract me with shiny objects?

[Farren]

If she managed to get access to the scum PT that disappeared, I'm impressed.

[Farren]

i just want a little shrine is that so much to ask... ):

Ydrasse, what are you trying to accomplish right now?

[Farren]

VOTE: tea leaves

What Bell said last night - tea leaves' response to Ydrasse's pressure was nervous.

[Farren]

Farren are you scum with Ydrasse

No.

I'm pretty sure she's going to die no matter what I do. Might as well try to learn whatever else I can before that happens.

[Farren]

tbh I think I'm in a bit of a reverse movement, I'm probably going to become meaner in exchange for winning games more
at least on this site

Bad idea.

[Farren]

See, that sounds to me like an argument to go the other way. Recognizing it as a game means that everyone should walk away feeling more-or-less okay with how it went down, even if the outcome wasn't favorable.

[Farren]

Good perspective.

AtE is one of those trickier things to deal with, though. And it's not an exclusive strategy to scum.

PEdit: @GuiltyLion - yeah, that's what triggered it.

[Farren]

Unofficial tally:

Ydrasse - 3 (Bell, GuiltyLion, Gamma Emerald)
tea leaves - 2 (Farren, Isis)
Dunnstral - 1 (tea leaves)
GuiltyLion - 1 (Ydrasse)
Gamma Emerald - 1 (Dunnstral)
Not Voting - 1 (Morning Tweet)

tea leaves, why are you still voting for Dunnstral?

[Farren]

Okay, apparently I was wrong about Ydrasse being doomed today.

[Farren]

Well, Dunnstral voted you first.
And Then I did.
Are you saying Isis and Tea Leaves and MT are scum here or.

Pretend votes don't count.

[Farren]

Make sure to write down the logistics of how to exile a tree.

PEdit: damn it, Bell.

[Farren]

I can see potential scum motivation in tea leaves - keep another wagon besides their own active. What would scum|Bell's motivation be?

[Farren]

Not buying Bell as scum at all right now.

[Farren]

All the time.

[Farren]

That answer screams "annoyance" to me more than anything.

[Farren]

I understand it might be hard to swallow with a 2man team, but let’s also consider that it seems like no one has bothered to stick up for me in a meaningful capacity besides myself? At least one Town was closer to elimination than I was if I am scum, why doesn’t the other scum redirect to that Townie? And like I’m pretty sure everyone who hasn’t indicated interest in voting me specifically has checked in.

Scum don't always defend each other. Busing is a thing. Distancing is a thing. Anti-associatives are a thing.

[Farren]

No thank you.

[Farren]

Waiting on whatever surprise happens to come up next. Other than that, no.

[Farren]

That would be the annoyance talking, I think.

[Farren]

Plenty of time to go through at least a dozen cycles of worry.

[Farren]

tea leaves: we should talk.

[Farren]

on one hand i had a similar reaction cause town has frustrated backlash and i get that, but also I guess he didn't really take a stance on it. I didn't take a hard stance either, but i would generally say it's easier to hedge as scum than to not

Would you describe yourself as hedging?

[Farren]

VOTE: tea leaves

@Farren I wanna know where your reads are at and if you're willing to vote here

Bell: strongest townread.
Isis: faded a bit since D1. Still on the town side of things, but I'm watching her. I think I need to take a look at her meta at some point, see if I can spot any differences between scum|her and Town|her.
Ydrasse: eh. I'd say mixed still? I'm still boggling about the wagon shifting to Gamma, but I don't think Ydrasse played much of a part in that.
MT: Same general tier as Ydrasse, but trending downwards.
Guilty: improved. I'd say leaning town.
tea leaves: scummy, but I'm worried about possible tunneling here.

In order from Town to scum:

Bell >> Isis | Guilty > Ydrasse | Morning Tweet > tea leaves.

If I had to vote now, I'd be voting tea leaves again - nothing about yesterday made me feel any better there. But I want to talk first.

I also need to do some re-reading in general. I'm feeling lost and adrift, and I don't know why.

PEdit: Ah, good timing. To start with: did you do anything with regards to the game during N1?

[Farren]

Also, if scum|GuiltyLion goes after you with VCA, what would you expect Town|GuiltyLion to do?

[Farren]

Farren, what do you think about Ydrasse now? I see that you took her getting chopped down so much for granted that you moved your vote to pressure tea leaves on the basis that they were getting nervous in response to Ydrasse's pressure.

that does leave me somewhat confused on where you stand on her

To elaborate more on this: yes, I definitely took Ydrasse getting executed for granted. I did switch to tea leaves because of how they reacted to Bell's pressure. But I wouldn't say there's a connection between me taking Ydrasse's execution for granted and my voting for tea leaves.

Interestingly enough, I was worried about a possible flash-wagon on Ydrasse, but didn't anticipate a flash-wagon on Gamma. Which tells me that my perception of the game-state was off.

That doesn't address your question, though. I was nervous when Gamma flipped; couldn't put a finger on why. I was worried about flash-wagons on Ydrasse, but I think that was more of a case of not wanting to see any sudden action while a claim was resolving, just on general principles. Although now I'm wondering if my gut was trying to tell me something townie about Ydrasse.

So: confusion is understandable, as my position is conflicted between what my brain's telling me (middle of the road read leads to scum more often than death-tunnels do) and what my gut is hinting at.

[Farren]

PEdit: Ah, good timing. To start with: did you do anything with regards to the game during N1?

Nope!

Is that your normal style of play when you're a VT or equivalent? Take a break from the game and relax?

[Farren]

A push on someone that's a whole lot more substantial and reasonable than whatever this is.

Do you think there's a strong case to be made against anyone right now?

[Farren]

Yeah I thought about and shifted weight from Ydrasse to MT. I thought about end day gamma/Gl interactions and whether it was natural for GL to be as insightful as he was being in regards to me/ydrasse.
I thought about. given my averageness in scum hunting, if I should be looking at my null reads rather than my scum reads more.

Why do you have such a strong read on me Farren?

You've been pushing. You've been hunting. Pretty much constantly since you got here.

That's a good sign of Town in general. If it results in a whole bunch of Town corpses by the time ELo rolls around, then it's time to re-evaluate.

[Farren]

Yeah, I very rarely reread stuff over the night.

Understandable. With me, it's more mixed. Sometimes I feel I need a break, other times I go nuts and re-evaluate everything. So probably nothing to learn there.

PEdit: if there's no strong case to be made on anyone right now, why do you expect a substantial and reasonable case from Town|GuiltyLion?

[Farren]

Let's turn that around. If GuiltyLion is scum, how do things change?

PEdit: @tea leaves

[Farren]

Interrogation is one possible viewpoint. But there's another possible viewpoint as well.

I don't usually post pictures during the game. There are rare exceptions, but I don't think any of them are likely to come into play here.

[Farren]

Farren, if GuiltyLion is scum, then I look for his partner since we would need to get them to win. I can't exactly remember who's been pushing who though, and don't think it's a good use of time to look for preflip associations.

The point of this is: if you have an idea of what someone would do as scum, it follows that you should have an idea of what they would do as Town, if you're trying to genuinely figure out if they're Town or scum. Those ideas may be wrong - but right or wrong, they should still be present.

Another point of this is: you have an idea of who scum|Me's possible partner is - Ydrasse. That tells me you've been thinking about partner possibilities - which means that logically, if you're trying to evaluate GuiltyLion vs. me, I'd expect you to have an idea for who his potential partner is, given that you had an idea for my potential partner.

If you don't think pre-flip associations are worth looking at, that's understandable - but then why do you have pre-flip associations for me? Or do you?

Still another point of this - and this touches on the "interrogation" thing - Town screws up. Town makes mistakes. Town even contradicts themselves from time to time. This isn't supposed to be a "gotcha!" game where you screwed up! lockscum! etc etc. This is more about seeing how you react to those mistakes. And the lens that you're looking through. Are you trying to figure out the truth, or obscure it?

[Farren]

Interrogation is one possible viewpoint. But there's another possible viewpoint as well.

I don't usually post pictures during the game. There are rare exceptions, but I don't think any of them are likely to come into play here.

Okay, so, Farren; I played with you in your last game here. You took the game seriously in a similar way, but you also joked around some and felt more casual. Is there a reason for this change?

I don't remember you in any of my previous games - was it as a different player? Which game were you in?

Whether or not I joke around is mostly a mood thing, I'd say. If I'm in a good mood, I'm more likely to do stuff like that. That'll vary on a day-to-day basis - although it can be affected by the game itself. Right now, for example, I'm trying to focus myself to get over that "lost and adrift" bit I mentioned earlier. I'm also realizing that I need to stop posting here and do some stuff that doesn't involve the computer. Reality rears its ugly head again. So will resume this later.

[Farren]

Iso him, he joked around mid-late day and I felt kind of the opposite here where I felt he was contradicting himself when he claimed he would be super analytical all game, but never brought it up until today really.

I did say that the filter gets turned down from time to time. But yeah, there was a case where the filter went off entirely. Sometimes I forget I'm capable of that.

Fear me if I ever figure out how to control it.

[Farren]

Yeah, I was Hectic in that game. And alright.

Ah hah. So that'd be Brass & Shrapnel, then.

I'm not going to try to judge anything about my mood or mental state as far as that game goes. I had to replace out for reasons unrelated to the game, but reasons that probably themselves had an impact on my performance in the game. Details about said reasons: the less said the better. My apologies.

[Farren]

MEMES

No.

[Farren]

Bell posts a lot of vague solviness but I don't remember much that's like "wow this is town". And his townread on tealeaves is really weird.

Farren kind of treads the hard to fake territory more often as far as I can tell. If he actually has the track record of being bad at scum he says he does all the better

To elaborate:

My track record *here* as scum is garbage. One game - a loss - scum taken out D1/D2 with me going first.

My track record offsite is ... well, better than that, but it'd be kinda hard *not* to be better than that? Taking a brief look at the ten most recent, I'm running about 50/50. Some of those were as Auxes (closest equivalent here is Traitor, I think - they win with scum but they're not part of the scumteam), but even with the wins I'm dead before game-end more often than not. Out of seven games since I started playing again where I was part of the scumteam or could promote to full-fledged scum, I survived one. And that one was crazy.

I don't know how it's relevant to being genuine, though?

[Farren]

So that was a case of confidence, then?

[Farren]

Maybe I should be approaching this from more of a world-building perspective. I'm getting nowhere right now.

Let's assume tea leaves is Town. See if it leads to a world that makes sense.

I'm Town. tea leaves is Town. I'm still banking on Town|Bell. Gamma's a treestump; Dunnstral's Firefighter.

Isis / MT / Ydrasse / GuiltyLion remain. Is there a two-scum pool in there that makes sense?

Isis / MT. Cross-voting: Menalque votes MT during RVS, lasts for 9 posts before switching to Ydrasse. Isis votes MT 410, no immediate reason given but later mentions 342 as scummy. Switches off 457. Interaction: some early Menalque / MT interaction. Doesn't feel s/s? Reads: Menalque TRs MT 159. Isis replaces in ... 269, MT TRs Menalque; replacement's happened by then but Isis hasn't done anything substantive yet, so OK. 297 really does not feel like s/s. 346 - Isis demonstrates prescience, which is totally irrelevant but amusing. 347 is shiny and a distraction - focus. 498 mT analyzes Isis with meta, concludes town|Isis based on difference between here and Purgatory (scum|Isis in that game). Described Isis in that game as "80-90% fluff," "one-liner questions," and one or two wallposts. And now this is all mixed up, but who cares. Legibility is for the weak. 552: Isis wants to townbucket the bat. Big split between Isis/MT on tea leaves - MT TR, Isis SR.

yeah, think I'm done reading that. That does not look s/s to me.

this is not going to get done before I go to bed tonight. So I'm posting this mostly to give me incentive to FOCUS damn it and finish it when I'm more conscious.

[Farren]

I feel like I’m not gonna be very useful going forward :/

You're conftown. Please don't willingly waste that.

Dunnstral, that goes to you too.

[Farren]

Could you point me to a a hard to fake post or two if you can? There are things I liked in Farren's ISO but not as much as some others i checked

Am I allowed to use 1410

It works to satisfy my curiosity, but someone that doesn't know I'm Town could point out that anything I made after that could be scum|me trying to come up with a genuine fake.

[Farren]

I need one of Ydrasse, GL, Farren, MT to raise their hands real high and announce they're town to PoE to victory.

@Isis, I don't really know.

Already did my stretching routine.

And if I were scum, I'd lie.

Still Town, though.

[Farren]

Great, let's go down the list and hope we didn't fuck up.

No lists if we end up getting to the point where it's possibly ELo.

[Farren]

And now, back to yesterday's work. If I don't post something in the next hour or so that looks like it could be coherent world-building if you squint at it enough, please send help. Or lumberjacks.

PEdit: Menalque said something similar to me. No more attempts to demoralize me; I do a good enough job of that on my own.

[Farren]

Isis / Ydrasse:

Cross-votes: Menalque votes Ydrasse 23: early, but indicates the vote is at least a little more serious than the average RVS vote. References an unnatural tone. Switches to me in 98.

Interactions: 83-90. Ydrasse questioning possibly voting out townreads; Menalque taking it as a possible townslip. 148-163: looks like genuine discussion, but don't see anything that makes me rule out s/s. Somewhere between NAI and -s/s. 281-285: brief bit about Ydrasse TRing MT. 358-361, nothing substantial; 381-401. During this exchange, Isis switches off of clidd; switches around afterwards. Ydrasse switches her vote to GL. Feels like maybe there's some ... scheming? here. Don't know if it's t/s or s/s, but it doesn't feel like t/t. 589-628: involves tea leaves, who's an active participant. Turned off ISO to get a better feel for the context here. In town|tea leaves world, this could be s/s or s/t. In both this one and the last, Isis feels like the driving force. 651-693: drunk-tac-toe. Lots of fluff. More fluff later. 1022-1074 isn't all fluff (still some) but the non-fluff stuff falls under advising on past actions, which is NAI.

Reads: 159: Menalque thinks Ydrasse is probtown. 179: Ydrasse TRs Menalque. 273: Isis thinks a Ydrasse post (29) sounds townish but can't explain it. 712: Isis doesn't really townread Ydrasse, more that Ydrasse is voting for tea leaves which Isis wants. Given all the interaction, this doesn't feel right either. I don't see Ydrasse giving a read on Isis, unless 1103 counts (calls Isis a fake tree).

This looks like a plausible team to me in town|tea leaves world. Feels like there should be more pressure in between the two and less fluff.

[Farren]

Isis / GuiltyLion:

Here, it's not so much about listing out a bunch of stuff. There isn't that much to comment on.

No cross votes at all. Interaction - there's a little. Not a lot. Nothing I saw ruled out s/s. Reads: mutual t/t, I think. Entirely plausible for s/s if neither slot is being heavily pressured, which is the case here.

This also looks like a plausible team to me in town|tea leaves world.

[Farren]

If it were pointless, I wouldn't be doing it.

Unless you're arguing that it's only pointless as scum, in which case, carry on.

[Farren]

How did the riotous celebrations go?

[Farren]

That was E-1.

[Farren]

GuiltyLion pushing me for weak VCA is pretty par for the course for what I expected scum!him to do here. As Morning mentioned, it's pretty easy to tell I'm on both wagons because it naturally follows from my earlier reads.

VOTE: GuiltyLion

GuiltyLion doesn't make me feel anything even when he's active tho

VOTE: GuiltyLion

Okay. He seems to be decent at playing scum. But I can see it after isoing his first 50 posts or so.

Ydrasse gave no reason, but it's certainly not a surprise given D1. Think that's the highlights.

[Farren]

Imagination there feels like a synonym for paranoia. Accurate or no?

[Farren]

Okay. It sounded like something different than what Isis was talking about.

Isis's description makes me think more a combination of lack of passion / lack of presence - not in the sense of not being there at all, but more like not in the sense of actively making yourself known.

[Farren]

Sounds like my cue to get back to work on that general topic.

[Farren]

Although from what I remember, I don't think it's going to help town|MT answer her question, beyond what I've already done. I haven't done the full ISO dive on GL/Ydrasse, but I remember D1 well enough to be pretty sure of what I'm going to find there. GL/MT is obviously out from a town|MT PoV.

[Farren]

MT / Ydrasse:

Votes:

Interactions: MT mentions Ydrasse is great at scum, 82. Triggers a bit of mechanical talk. One question from MT to Ydrasse in 153, immediate answer in 154 on a pedit. Feels ... genuine, but brief.

Reads: 179, Ydrasse has a slight TR on MT. 269, MT describes Ydrasse as "could get excited about being town, but not there yet", or words to that effect. Seems fundamentally equivalent to Ydrasse's read on MT. 283: Ydrasse more emphatic about the TR on MT, cites open-mindedness. 499: MT puts Ydrasse "below the Pine line" - although mentions that Pine should be lower, but put Pine in the middle as a joke, while Ydrasse is one step below Pine. So call that ... nullish / mixed / whatever, it's pretty similar to the last one in terms of positioning. 506: MT mentions she'll need to interact with Ydrasse more. Not really a read per se, but I'm putting it here. 642, MT speculates on comfortable Ydrasse possibly being Town|Ydrasse. 719: MT still thinking about Ydrasse. No interactions here, but looking at timestamps makes this NAI completely. 784: indicates an interest in eliminating Ydrasse, but again reiterates wanting to re-read. 788: the Ydrasse meta-dive. Multi-quotes from this game, links to three other games with details. Clearly a lot of work put into that. About 45 minutes between 784 and 788 being posted.

Which is a point of concern - not necessarily s/s indicative specifically, but the speed with which that was built makes me think it could have been pre-planned. Which could have been the result of drafting into a Notes PT, but 784 makes it sound like MT was starting from scratch.

Okay, stopping here for a sanity check. I don't think I could do that in 45 minutes. But I have an overactive filter at times, and any sort of analysis post like that triggers it. My sense of time could be off. Is it plausible that town|MT comes up with 788 in 45 minutes?

[Farren]

"Might as well be town" would be the most important category of scum to take out. The hardest to find, and the ones capable of doing the most damage. All the more reason to take a look at what might be a slip now.

[Farren]

I figure watching GL's reaction to being at E-1 will provide some insight on his alignment.

Until then, this is helping me look at things from a different perspective - and seeing some things I missed earlier. Like this, for example.

Please take a look at those two posts - mostly the big one; the short one just establishes the timeframe.

PEdit: Nope. But I definitely am getting a sense of some snark creeping into your tone, as well as some dismissiveness.

[Farren]

Asking directly isn't going to give me any meaningful response, unless I think I can accurately tell if she's lying when she answers. In this case, I don't. Plus in this case, I will be surprised if she doesn't comment on this regardless.

As far as the implications of: if it's scum|MT that pre-planned that post for nefarious reasons, what can we glean of Ydrasse? Looking at that time window, I don't think Ydrasse was under a great deal of pressure right then, so it's not a case of "scum|MT had an urgent need to defend scum|Ydrasse." Staging to try to justify a townread on a scumpartner is the main reason I can think of that would fit into an s/s scenario. If there's nothing to do it with in this game, drawing on past games is one way that sounds better than just "tone" or similar. Pocketing / general towncred for s/t - except that maybe conflicts given what you said about MT saying that sort of thing is a scumtell? At least the general towncred motive. Trying to establish associatives with not-partners - that'd be some pretty far thinking given that MT hasn't really been in any serious pressure situations yet, let alone by that point. I don't get a sense of that level of ... calculation from MT, which I think would be required here - unless her partner gives her the idea. But in that case we'd still be looking at s/t, so forget about that.

Staging seems more likely. So I'd say lean s/s if it's fake.

[Farren]

I don't get a sense of that level of ... calculation from MT, which I think would be required here - unless her partner gives her the idea. But in that case we'd still be looking at s/t, so forget about that.

Scum couldn't talk to each other til N1

That would be an even better reason to forget about that particular scenario.

[Farren]

I didn't have strong reads on day 1, if I were to point to someone it would be little more than guessing based on tone at this point

Wasn't addressing the past; just the future.

And it might be little more than guessing based on tone, but at least it's guessing based on tone that we'd know is made in good faith. Every little bit helps.

[Farren]

Farren... idk. I don't like him angling to potentially vote me "based off my reaction" to E-1

I figure watching GL's reaction to being at E-1 will provide some insight on his alignment.

You're under pressure. You're going to react to that pressure. Reaction to pressure can be AI.

While I didn't explicitly say it, yes, voting for you is a possibility if I think your reaction is bad enough.

Are you explicitly calling me out as scummy here, or is this just annoyance at being at E-1?

[Farren]

Re: 1492 - going into details kinda defeats the purpose of doing it.

[Farren]

VOTE: Ydrasse

literally no content on D1, no content today. there's only reason I'm being wagoned instead of her is because I don't mince words and I've been stepping on toes by actually trying to play the game

Is this one of those cases where you're using "literally" to mean the opposite of what it's supposed to mean?

Replace "no content today" with "no substantive content today" and I'll give you that one. I'd even be willing to entertain an argument if you went with "no substantive content on D1", although that'd be a harder sell as she did have some reads on D1.

[Farren]

Consider this though - if you hammer me because my "reaction is bad", I'll be here D3 and I want to understand exactly why you did that prior to my flip

and yes I am calling you scummy based on that post - I don't get the sense you've ever really committed to a firm read on me and it's problematic that you're giving yourself room to hammer in advance of me even posting in thread. If you think I'm town you should be defending me and pushing on Ydrasse/Isis for their garbage votes

You could come out with a ten-page confession and I'd still wait to hammer until closer to EOD. Even in this set-up. Time's a resource.

That being said, I have no plans to hammer. If that changes, I will let you know.

I do plan to figure out if your takes here are reasonable.

You're right that I haven't committed to a firm read on you. You're wrong about my post being a pretense to justify a hammer, but at least right now it doesn't feel like an unreasonable kind of wrong.

[Farren]

I don't recall a single read from Ydrasse other than town!MT

i've come out of the last page or two townreading clidd + menalque.

i like farren quite a bit. :> am adding him to my townpile.

[Farren]

Thinking more about the hammer business ... yeah, I think that take makes sense, given that you're the one that hammered yesterday and are the one being run up today.

I don't think anyone's specifically said they're voting for you because you hammered, but that doesn't mean the connection isn't there. So it's reasonable to think that scum in general would want to be cautious about hammering today.

[Farren]

VOTE: Ydrasse

[Farren]

We're out of stock of brains. I can offer a deal on pancreas, though.

[Farren]

I would be shocked if they were busing.

[Farren]

Maybe today, but during D1 as well?

[Farren]

GuiltyLion hammered? Other than that, I'd have to look.