Open 819 | The Mindmeld Theory | Postgame

[Vulture]

Hello everyone.

[Vulture]

I wonder what constitutes a strong town player.

[Vulture]

I wonder what constitutes a strong town player.

Ich, did you mean strong play as a whole when town or strong town performance this game alone?

[Vulture]

I wonder what constitutes a strong town player.

Name starts with s ends in kitter30.

Do you believe no one else at this table to be impactful as town?

[Vulture]

I wonder what constitutes a strong town player.

Ich, did you mean strong play as a whole when town or strong town performance this game alone?

The latter can't be known until post game. I meant high impact players who are valuable tools to town when alive. Such as Pooky/Skitter.

It amuses me we both used the word impact. However, I find this to be unhelpful to suggest early on given the fact that they could be high impact scum.

[Vulture]

they could be high impact scum.

I like you.

Muah.

[Vulture]

I wonder what constitutes a strong town player.

Ich, did you mean strong play as a whole when town or strong town performance this game alone?

The latter can't be known until post game. I meant high impact players who are valuable tools to town when alive. Such as Pooky/Skitter.

It amuses me we both used the word impact. However, I find this to be unhelpful to suggest early on given the fact that they could be high impact scum.

High impact scum who still need to convince another town player to trust fall with them.

They do. However, I’d rather just have towny people go as we become sure of pairings and stay away from the order being based off of a hierarchy of impact.

[Vulture]

I wonder what constitutes a strong town player.

Name starts with s ends in kitter30.

Do you believe no one else at this table to be impactful as town?

It was kind of a joke.

“Kind of.”

But it kind of wasn’t?

[Vulture]

The quote tree is getting too big so I’ll just say that I understand. @Ich

[Vulture]

I wonder what constitutes a strong town player.

Name starts with s ends in kitter30.

Do you believe no one else at this table to be impactful as town?

It was kind of a joke.

“Kind of.”

But it kind of wasn’t?

As in that skitter is a good player.

I think the sentiment that pinged me enough to ask about kind of was that it feels like a nervous way of stating it was tongue in cheek.

[Vulture]

I don’t really care about how you perceive Skitter so much as care why she was singled out in a joke. If that follows.

[Vulture]

I think ich and penguin are somewhat townie
I have gut scumpings on vulture

Elaborate if you can.

[Vulture]

Idk if i can explain you/penguin yet, its more pings than anytjing else

Literally dont know if i can elaborate on penguin beyond 'good vibes'
For you, vulture, 45 and 46 pinged the wrong way
I like ich's posts at the bottom of p2 (esp 48 and 49), i like the tone/assertiveness/confidence

Okay.

My question was twofold albeit somewhat silly, if not a question but a request more curt in “if you can” meant to goad in a very small way. I think there is merit to an idea that scum are setting themselves up to fight certain people earlier if they feel they can punch back and I was curious if you would do so.

That being said your pings don’t actually help me discern where your head’s at from the explanation but thank you all the same.

[Vulture]

Okay.

My question was twofold albeit somewhat silly, if not a question but a request more curt in “if you can” meant to goad in a very small way. I think there is merit to an idea that scum are setting themselves up to fight certain people earlier if they feel they can punch back and I was curious if you would do so.

That being said your pings don’t actually help me discern where your head’s at from the explanation but thank you all the same.

Yeah i thought ur tone was a little weird when u asked that

How do you think i would have 'punched back' to that sort of question ?

And sorry i'm not so good at explaining pings always ... if i can elaborate more i will!
But the penguin is p strong actually, i do feel p good abt him

I viewed it as a condescending/forceful way to request an explanation; I would have scumread a reaction where you pressed on me for being aggressive towards you if it was in the context of, “Vulture is being aggressive towards me because I outed gutpings on them.”

And that’s okay. I have those feelings at times but these ones specifically just don’t mesh with me. Maybe because I’ve tried to be a bit more confident/headstrong and it wasn’t it for me but was it for Ich. So the metric just isn’t working.

[Vulture]

Also Datisi, it’s playstyle. I get tired of my voice sometimes, too.

p-edit: What expectations do you have of me early game to assume I would jump in straight to reads?

[Vulture]

p-edit: What expectations do you have of me early game to assume I would jump in straight to reads?

arguing mech / semantics / setup strategy is a thing scum often does because it's posting and presence but it's actively stopping game progress. i don't have any meta on you to know if you do that as town or not, this is a general read.

I think this perception bothers me if only that it comes after Skitter and I spoke in a way that I feel deviates from the theory talk I had with Ich before. My perception is that we were both engaging each other over actual “content”.

But yes, I was forcing myself to post “actual posts” before then. I would rather post when I feel like it even if it’s vapid as to be doing something that could lead to AI interaction.

[Vulture]

I viewed it as a condescending/forceful way to request an explanation; I would have scumread a reaction where you pressed on me for being aggressive towards you if it was in the context of, “Vulture is being aggressive towards me because I outed gutpings on them.”

And that’s okay. I have those feelings at times but these ones specifically just don’t mesh with me. Maybe because I’ve tried to be a bit more confident/headstrong and it wasn’t it for me but was it for Ich. So the metric just isn’t working.

Oh i dont think u were aggresive enuf to trip that meter
Not gonna try to find ur alt or anything but have u played qith me before?

~
If we're hero-solving s/s pairs i kinda like dats/t3
If we're looking for t/t pairs i dont know yet but ich and penguin would probably be up there

I feel if it was over the top it’d be strange and not go as wanted. A swing and a miss. We have.

[Vulture]

I’ll take an appointment at ten, Datisi.

[Vulture]

What a weird play style to have if T3 scum. A lot of bravado

[Vulture]

Hefty town energy I carry.

[Vulture]

This game is going to have a stupid team like Skitter/Pooky and that's why Pooky's in high spirits and also why he's just hanging out trying to mentor us with his sage experience prior rather than doing anything and then we're all going to go o: post-game like we couldn't have seen it coming.

I trust S_S/Umlaut/Datisi (?). The last I am not that strong about but in the over-arching Datisi v Skitter back and forth I find Skitter to be... agenda-feeling.

Scum is probably laughing at me in the PT.

[Vulture]

Perhaps some of that is that, it feels opportunistic to back down from the "argument" here that they're having (from Skitter's side) when there is a bit of questioning on her now. I think in an ideal world though I should play safe and say we don't let either of Skitter/Datisi pair because it feels like the sort of fight where it's T/S but I'm not sure enough on my townread to go "yes pair please."

[Vulture]

Perhaps some of that is that, it feels opportunistic to back down from the "argument" here that they're having (from Skitter's side) when there is a bit of questioning on her now. I think in an ideal world though I should play safe and say we don't let either of Skitter/Datisi pair because it feels like the sort of fight where it's T/S but I'm not sure enough on my townread to go "yes pair please."

i just don't see the point

Of what point? There's two in there.

[Vulture]

...you have a point, I didn't really want to read 17 pages worth of it, but it is useful for sorting you two.

How is it not helping you read him better if you're erring towards an alignment-read on him?

[Vulture]

As in, what I get from that is (and take it with a grain of salt given my light SR on you): "This is not helping me move towards a townread which I know to be correct on him." Sort of deal.

I'm aware that's not in good faith but my mind jumps to it.

[Vulture]

I support the trust.

[Vulture]

You're rocking it, HEM.

Also I don't know why I am people's top townread but I don't feel especially scummy either so shrug.

[Vulture]

This game currently feels like it's a bit brainless for me personally. I dunno how to feel about Ich wanting to leave with me though and it's like, I could go either way on their alignment.

A50 I'll give a bit more leeway to if only because he has played with me before and recently so maybe he sees something he saw last game.

[Vulture]

Maybe A50 can elaborate on why he finds me towny.

[Vulture]

Sometimes we have to spell it out.

[Vulture]

What can I say. I do what I can for the inquiring masses.

[Vulture]

Ehh.

I don't know if A50 picks an "unpopular" read goes "you guys don't see it, screw you guys, I'm not explaining it" and then sticks to it, pushing for me to leave with PP. Unless he's scum exactly with PP he's probably +town from this progression.

[Vulture]

I think I'd leave with A50, yeah. Sure. Why not. Seems fine.

Skitter/Datisi feels... unsolved to me to the point where I still wouldn't want either of the to leave yet.

[Vulture]

I don't see the motivation for scum!A50 to townread me, really. And to push for me to leave over himself.

I get the concept is "you only need one townie to trust mafia" but me saying I'd leave with him isn't saying I'm going to do with it. Just that, if people arranged it, I wouldn't protest it.

[Vulture]

There are a lot more things he could do to be towny and being stubborn over one read and hope that that was the "thing" that got me to go with him without fail is a risky strategy. Clearly he's not putting his eggs into baskets otherwise.

[Vulture]

It is, and I acknowledge that. Which is why I'm not dropping a trust here and now.

However, he came into this game starting with it, rather than ending with it after other efforts were exhausted. It feels counter-intuitive to start with the worst-case option.

[Vulture]

Meh. I've chalked A50's read up to the same as your own, really? Meta and the same feelings as last game. It's not a stretch for me to reach the points I am making for town!A50 and the red flags I see are ones that only /I/ enable, should I give him my full trust. If I don't he's just wasted his time.

[Vulture]

I don't see the motivation for scum!A50 to townread me, really. And to push for me to leave over himself.

I get the concept is "you only need one townie to trust mafia" but me saying I'd leave with him isn't saying I'm going to do with it. Just that, if people arranged it, I wouldn't protest it.

i mean i'm not saying you're necessarily about to pair up but uh yeah the timing is a bit suspect and looks somewhat scummy

He did something I found to be town-indicative, I noticed, I pointed it out.

What do I gain from being like "yep let's go, A50!" When I could have done it literally any other way. He's already fine with us pairing, I have no reason to force the issue.

[Vulture]

I'd never be that rude about it. Pat it gently.

[Vulture]

Also meta as in, I have played with Ich and A50 before in a previous game.

[Vulture]

for the pairing to go through scum-you needs to at least do lip-service to the notion of townreading him?

you didn't have a read before on him i think, you can't just go 'trust a50' upon him saying he would pair with you when you don't have an established read on him without that looking incredibly suspicious

I didn't have one verbalized but it was summarized as "his entrance was a bit towny." Which, as it's after the fact, take with a grain of salt if you want.

If he asked (which to be honest I think he would if he got PP/you or something to go through) I could probably do the bare minimum given his effort in expressing the read in depth and then boom, I'm out. It just feels, to me, that there are a myriad of other ways to do 'lip-service' that I'd care for were I scum.

[Vulture]

Ich's personality is one of the most... personality-ish.

[Vulture]

for the pairing to go through scum-you needs to at least do lip-service to the notion of townreading him?

you didn't have a read before on him i think, you can't just go 'trust a50' upon him saying he would pair with you when you don't have an established read on him without that looking incredibly suspicious

I didn't have one verbalized but it was summarized as "his entrance was a bit towny." Which, as it's after the fact, take with a grain of salt if you want.

If he asked (which to be honest I think he would if he got PP/you or something to go through) I could probably do the bare minimum given his effort in expressing the read in depth and then boom, I'm out. It just feels, to me, that there are a myriad of other ways to do 'lip-service' that I'd care for were I scum.

i am afraid i am going to have to take that read with a grain of salt
i'm not sure what the difference is between 'doing the bare minimum given his effort in expressing the read in depth' and how you explained your townread on him 2 pages ago
like from my pov you kinda did exactly what you're saying scum-you would do to take that pairing?
like yeah he didn't ask yet but he's indicating he's willing to?

Fair enough.

To me, the difference is "I slip it in at a time when people are less likely to question it" over "Oh, I like this, let me ring it out." Perhaps the miscommunication is that I do bare minimum as subtle and my expression of read earlier as not, which isn't bare minimum.

He is willing to but I'm equally unwilling to do so unless people are fine with it. Which again, grain of salt, but my individual want doesn't seem as important as everyone chiming in.

[Vulture]

To me, the difference is "I slip it in at a time when people are less likely to question it" over "Oh, I like this, let me ring it out." Perhaps the miscommunication is that I do bare minimum as subtle and my expression of read earlier as not, which isn't bare minimum.

He is willing to but I'm equally unwilling to do so unless people are fine with it. Which again, grain of salt, but my individual want doesn't seem as important as everyone chiming in.

ok thanks, i appreciate the explanation and i see what you mean
i guess i'm still dubious that scum wouldn't reciprocate a read when all they need to do is get the one townie to trust them and he was p willing to
like i get that you're saying you'd be more subtle but idk scum don't always play perfectly and i think that while it would have been *ideal* to be more subtle as scum i think the natural reaction as scum there is sort of exactly what you did

Forgive a moment of narcissism but I consider myself versed enough in scumplay to know what will come off as good and bad to where I wouldn't make a move that is that... obvious. Like, town me just says what they want to (especially as Vulture) without fear of judgment.

Which in retrospect is maybe not the best mentality for this setup but I'm uninterested in curating myself a certain way regardless. But I know what's ideal and what's not for this sort of game to where I would have a gentler hand.

[Vulture]

Acknowledged.

[Vulture]

Also acknowledged.

[Vulture]

Ich's trust is a tiny bit towny, but not... a lot because if they know I"m town they know I don't jump on it based on my own admissions (which they have no real reason to doubt from town). Given a confirmed flip also blessed me/Ich, yeah.

Not super sold on it being a bastion of town behavior.

[Vulture]

Yes.

[Vulture]

Quite frankly PP shouldn't doubt trusting me after this.

[Vulture]

Anyone object to me accepting?

[Vulture]

TRUST: PENGUIN