Open 825 - PYP X/Y: HoS_S [game over!]

[Something_Smart]

GeorgeBailey once told me the world is gonna roll me

[Something_Smart]

I've seen scum deliberately pick the same number as a distancing move before in this sort of game

I wouldn't expect them to do that while choosing multitasking.

[Something_Smart]

do i think speculating where scum positioned themselves is helpful? no.

Oh it absolutely is. Scum are significantly more likely to end up high on the draft.

[Something_Smart]

0 is not positive.

[Something_Smart]

I picked my favorite number to pick in PYP

[Something_Smart]

69 would also have been respectable

[Something_Smart]

I did pick informed as scum. Not in this exact setup, but it was traditional PYP with the bonus choice. Depends on how tactically your team wants to play-- multitasking is better for teams with stronger dayplay, informed for teams with stronger nightplay.

[Something_Smart]

... Only i here tried to being higher in quoue to get best roles?

No, I did this as well. This is my fourth PYP game (all different variants, but same drafting mechanism), and I have picked 9 each time, with an average draft position of 3.5.

[Something_Smart]

Yeah I mean, it's weird, but the draft is already weird and arbitrary. I think it's tempered by most people not caring enough to do that, and I certainly wouldn't go around drawing attention to it when signing up or anything.

[Something_Smart]

I’m getting a rainbow roll and you can’t stop me.

A rainbow roll to go with your red role

[Something_Smart]

phase two feels like the cuter way to int

Int?

[Something_Smart]

i'm pretty disinterested in this part of the solving process but friendly reminder, anyone who picked higher than ~12 is probably trying to tank the top draft positions.

Trying to what?

[Something_Smart]

I guess that's true; it's kind of a safety play to guarantee a middle position (well, "guarantee"... rip).

[Something_Smart]

Feels like this is trying too hard to justify yourself.

+1

[Something_Smart]

But, it would matter more if he rolled high in the draft.

[Something_Smart]

*blinks*

[Something_Smart]

Sorry, my third eye is blind.

[Something_Smart]

I disagree, why town can't try to get best PR (VIGILANTE)?

You mean, the best PR to take away from scum? One-shot vig is surely not better than cop or doctor, but it is much better for scum.

[Something_Smart]

-

Quality meme.

[Something_Smart]

Oh it wasn't a meme. Yeah uh most mods either use the tags (you can play around with these, but not in a game) or random.org.

[Something_Smart]

This is me popping in and contributing nothing of value.

mood

[Something_Smart]

wdym

[Something_Smart]

How can I be incorrect with "mood", I thought it was just a statement about how I feel

[Something_Smart]

"mood" is a slang expression commonly used by the youths of the present day to mean "I relate to this."

[Something_Smart]

Scum often "town up" when their wagon gains traction.

You mean like, TRY to start acting townier, or SUCCEED in acting townier?

[Something_Smart]

Potayto, potahto

Whether it succeeds or not depends on the gullibility of the players.

Well I was wondering which you meant, sounds like you meant the former, which I can definitely get behind.

[Something_Smart]

Does anyone townread Bee?

[Something_Smart]

Yes

Porque?

[Something_Smart]

That's what you townread her for?

[Something_Smart]

Wouldn't the most natural scum response to be relieved and the most natural town response to be suspicious?

(Not the only response, of course, but in my experience scum are generally happy to get townread even when it's not deserved, whereas I as town in that situation might be concerned that Titus was fabricating reads.)

[Something_Smart]

Fwiw I intentionally avoid pagetops because they lose the context of the post

[Something_Smart]

That's trash logic.

Is this why it undermines your townread?

[Something_Smart]

Why, then?

[Something_Smart]

Did it not bother you the first four times he did that?

[Something_Smart]

Also, if it's an effort to be productive, even if it fails at that, what's wrong with it?

[Something_Smart]

And Thor you do know you can directly check how many posts each person has, right? Using pagetops as a proxy is both harder and less precise

[Something_Smart]

Scum doesn't have motive to contribute to the game, but they have motive to APPEAR to contribute to the game.

Sure, but town also has a motive to contribute which in turn makes them appear to contribute. Why do you think it was the appearance of contributing rather than actually contributing?

[Something_Smart]

OK this is absolutely busywork and some weird ass BS.

Do you think it's scummy?

[Something_Smart]

Already explained.

That it fails to contribute? Why does that mean an attempt wasn't made? Shouldn't it be evident that Thor believes these weird theories are productive?

[Something_Smart]

This is my playstyle

You must get this a lot, then.

[Something_Smart]

Ah yes, just when I'm starting to get interested in the game, everyone decides not to play it.

[Something_Smart]

Why?

[Something_Smart]

Oh sick, Flea is town.

[Something_Smart]

Literally typed "What would it cost me to have you vote somewhere, Something_Smart" and deleted it

There is usually not much of a downside to voting, aside from outside quickhammer chances and people assuming the vote indicates a scumread and asking me to justify it.

But I've been asked this before. Usually the reasons are something something wagon analysis something accountability but I've never seen anyone draw any productive information out of a vote that I placed on request.

[Something_Smart]

Harvey is Auro right? If so he's just teasing me.

[Something_Smart]

You can read me 100% by checking your scum PT and seeing that I am not listed there

[Something_Smart]

I'm not convinced that speeding up the game or pressuring are worthy goals. (This is why I vote so little in the first place.)

[Something_Smart]

What’s your read on me?

Moderate scum off of draft position + your posts have done nothing to reverse it.

[Something_Smart]

Tension produces more content - would you agree?

Sometimes, but it's not always

good

content. When the players are invested enough in the game, there should always be plenty to talk about.

It's difficult to act perfectly naturally when it looks like the game is headed in the wrong direction for you as scum - would you agree to this?

Yes. However it is also difficult to act in a way as town that doesn't make people suspicious that this is happening. Particularly the type of people who are prone to getting pressured are often also the type of people that do weird things or freak out under pressure.

[Something_Smart]

What about them though?

What about what, your posts?

I mean they're fine. Nothing much stands out.

[Something_Smart]

Hey, what am I, chopped liver?

Have you done that? Sorry if I forgot. What game was it?

[Something_Smart]

Only logical explanation as in only explanation assuming House is acting logically? Or only explanation allowed by logic?

[Something_Smart]

I don't play with cheaters.

If he were cheating, he'd have been banned for it. What he did is within site rules. I agree that it was gross, but not as gross as the way you're acting.

Do you think it was actually scummy or are you just voting him out of spite? Because if it's the latter, then uh, I've got bad news about who's bringing in outside influences...

[Something_Smart]

Anything i say in direct response to this would get me banned.

So don't say anything! Nobody is taking Gamma's read seriously.

[Something_Smart]

It's not unfair though. You could say Gamma is scum because of ongoing games too, and he wouldn't be able to respond.

[Something_Smart]

And I would take it just as seriously as I am taking Gamma's statement, that is to say, not at all. I can't speak for anyone else but you are correct when you say that this is not an accusation you should have reasonably expected to defend yourself against. We can stop talking about it. It doesn't mean you have to completely shut off contact with him.

[Something_Smart]

So if we're playing Monopoly and i swipe $500 from the pot when you're not looking, it's not cheating because you can swipe $500 when I'm not looking, too.

Not by your own definition!

A more standard definition of cheating at a game means breaking the rules of that game, but that's apparently not the one you're using here.

[Something_Smart]

What do you mean by unfair?

(Side note: if this conversation is annoying/distracting, feel free to break it off whenever)

[Something_Smart]

Also, doesn't cheating have to be deliberate? If Gamma was town, it surely wasn't deliberate, and if he's scum, then I still don't expect him to engage in that kind of psychological manipulation.

[Something_Smart]

report posts you think are rule breaking and let's move on pls. this is a distraction

Okay.

[Something_Smart]

Boss is back.

*runs away*

*laughs in work from home*

[Something_Smart]

It would be a bad thing to make an assumption like that instead of asking, but he didn't do that. Don't need to dwell on it anymore.

[Something_Smart]

S_S, also curious about your declaring Flea town. Is it just about post 899? This time, I'll admit that the use of "curious" actually does carry with it a bit of a connotation of suspicion. I'm not sure I like the outright declaration from you that someone is town. It feels overconfident.

It is, yes. I expected a short answer from town-Flea and an even shorter answer from scum-Flea, and got a very long and detailed one that also offered up some pretty genuine-seeming and completely unprompted draft thoughts.

And it's... not overconfident, exactly, but oversimplified for sure. I obviously don't think Flea is 100% town, it's just a matter of, I didn't have any townreads up till that point, so I was grateful to find one and didn't really care about where exactly in the townreads I put faer.

[Something_Smart]

Was this a joke? Serious question.

No. I wanted to know if Titus had, in some past game, asked me to put down a vote and then drawn a valuable conclusion from it after I complied, because I don't remember that ever happening.

[Something_Smart]

What would you say your main motivation was for the questioning of people scumreading Thor around that time?

I think just to understand the reads so that if I disagree with the reasoning I can voice that disagreement without jumping to conclusions.

[Something_Smart]

Okay. Full disclosure, I think that that makes 947 mildly scum indicative. Think Titus was joking, you didn't understand that, and scum in general tend to misunderstand, completely miss or misinterpret jokes more than town do on a non-insignificant level.

What's the joke?

[Something_Smart]

I mean if she was joking it's because she misread my post.

[Something_Smart]

Because there didn't seem to be people scumreading them for dumb reasons?

[Something_Smart]

I didn't care that Thor had a wagon, I'm not sure if I was even aware of it. I just saw that people were calling him scummy for what looked like clearly NAI-at-worst posts.

[Something_Smart]

Nah, that still doesn't seem like a joke to me. "What am I, chopped liver?" is a jokey way to make a serious claim ("you forgot about me"), so it makes sense to respond to that with a serious question verifying whether she had read it correctly.

[Something_Smart]

And you didn't see this for other wagons?

Nope. Could just be that I wasn't paying attention to the thread when people were posting about them, or that they weren't there.

I know that there was a lot of ~playing the game~ that just kinda went over my head because it felt like everyone was just going through the motions of playing mafia and not actually producing any interesting content. So it's entirely possible that I missed something during that.

[Something_Smart]

Even if she wasn't, it's still worth clarifying, and it doesn't make it a joke. I don't think I misconstrued anything there.

[Something_Smart]

It's not really a justification.

[Something_Smart]

Presumably then she thought I claimed that nobody had ever drawn a valuable conclusion from VCA and wanted to object to it.

[Something_Smart]

I mean, sort of my point exactly. I know it's not really meant to be a justification per se. It's just a really scummy thing to put next to a vote there, in that specific context. Which is what I was trying to say.

Why? I can pretty easily see town deciding between their scumleans by picking one that might get traction, and then documenting that decision

[Something_Smart]

I'm not a fan of this statement.

Not that i disagree about not needing an ironclad case on d1, just that the way it's put across as an, "any lim'll do" kinda vibe.

You can disagree with it for sure, but it's probably game-philosophy indicative and not alignment indicative. I say this because this seems consistent with how Titus normally thinks (though I don't remember her saying this specifically), and it also happens to be my philosophy.

[Something_Smart]

As I was saying earlier, it feels lazy and devoid of any further thought.

I mean he specifically referenced the existence of further thought... why not ask about his other reasons, instead of assuming he has none?

[Something_Smart]

Primarily I think that that post is scummy for the way that it's phrased, and the lack of corresponding evidence.

You think that townies are more likely to give explanations for their reads unprompted? That's, uh, a take I guess.

(It's not a crazy thing to think, but I would have to believe that it's mostly personality indicative.)

[Something_Smart]

Let me be clear. When I say "corresponding evidence", I'm not talking about an explanation paired with the vote. I'm talking about the rest of the content in his ISO corresponding to what he's saying in that specific post.

Okay? So what, he's scummy for putting a vote down without having explained the read ahead of time? Why is he more likely to do that as scum than town? Don't scum usually go to greater lengths to appear to have a consistent progression?

[Something_Smart]

You seem to be making this about "explanations" for some reason. I'm not sure why. You've brought it up twice. It's not about explanations, as I just said. It's about the content missing from his ISO that I would expect, assuming the read on HH were real. Again, that's what I mean by "corresponding evidence".

I'm just misunderstanding what you're getting at, I guess. You can't know what's in Gamma's head, you can only know what he's said. So you can't have an issue with what he has or hasn't

thought

, only what he has or hasn't

explained

.

[Something_Smart]

Pardon me if I sound offended S_S, but for the level of charitability you seem willing to display in 1197, posts like 1198 and 1204 seem to have a remarkably uncharitable tone. Do you think that I'm scum?

I don't see what's uncharitable about 1204, 1198 I'll give you is uncharitable, but I thought I had (finally) understood you correctly. I don't think you're scum.

[Something_Smart]

Phone posting is the worst thing. >_>

He does post on phone sometimes, but I wouldn't really say it's his thing...

[Something_Smart]

Nah. Not feeling it.

Penguin isn't catching votes because he's obvtown.

Of note is that in the past I have fallen into the trap as scum of pushing PP ("pushing" by my standards being putting in my PoE) because he's quiet, and I have usually been met with this response and been confused/frustrated about it.

That said, I'm not feeling it here, but I've also been disengaged from large parts of the game.

[Something_Smart]

Of note is that in the past I have fallen into the trap as scum of pushing PP ("pushing" by my standards being putting in my PoE) because he's quiet, and I have usually been met with this response and been confused/frustrated about it.

Enchant's response to it really throws me, though, because it's counter to my intuitions as either alignment.

[Something_Smart]

Did you get anything out of your interactions yesterday?

Not really, except maybe a mild +town on MM.

[Something_Smart]

Not a fan of Enchant blatantly plagiarizing the worst's reasoning on MM.

I think the worst was joking there.

Hmm I think I heard someone saying something about missing jokes being scum indicative. Might have just been my imagination though.

[Something_Smart]

In a game full of players joking and screwing around, she's all

Surely she isn't the only person doing this...

[Something_Smart]

Interesting, I re-read that part and it's really... odd to see Enchant not just instantly accept House's towncase based on "tone, analytical, genuineness", but also say he was feeling dumb for having thought PP was scum.

Yeah, that's kinda what I was getting at. It's a very unintuitive reaction.

[Something_Smart]

This entire game is just a lesson in how not to try to be funny over the internet.

[Something_Smart]

Enchant, are you a native speaker? Just curious, mostly.

[Something_Smart]

No.

Thanks. You have a lot of awkward phrasings, and I mean there's nothing wrong with that since it's generally clear what you mean, but it might be a good thing for people to keep in mind.

[Something_Smart]

not surprised.

Oh?

[Something_Smart]

Why weren't you surprised? Have you seen Auro lolhammer before?

[Something_Smart]

That sure is a spicy VC.

[Something_Smart]

Ha, that's what you think.

[Something_Smart]

if S_S does flip scum that probably says a lot about his team’s positioning in the game (what specifically, I’m not to sure, maybe they’re all around that same null level?)

Sounds like nonsense. In what world wouldn't I be playing like this as scum?

[Something_Smart]

Where's your head at, S_S? Do you have an opinion on either wagon?

Uh I think Enchant is town for not wanting to compromise on Gamma. Jury's still out on Gamma. I definitely don't think it's too late to be starting another wagon.

[Something_Smart]

I mean - in every world you play like this as either alignment.

Exactly. So I don't know where Gamma is getting that from.

[Something_Smart]

I think CSF is town for recent actions too, fwiw.

[Something_Smart]

As someone who sometimes posts on that pattern, there are several plausible explanations. Especially since it's an alt.

[Something_Smart]

Flea is one of my like 3 townreads :X

[Something_Smart]

It is, yes. I expected a short answer from town-Flea and an even shorter answer from scum-Flea, and got a very long and detailed one that also offered up some pretty genuine-seeming and completely unprompted draft thoughts.

[Something_Smart]

Because it's even more in the town direction (more detail) than I was expecting.

[Something_Smart]

Large changes tend to be intentional.

It wasn't a change, really.

[Something_Smart]

Sorry, been very busy day yesterday and likely today too. I'll be back my evening.

Omg guys Auro was super active and then super inactive... he must be scum.

[Something_Smart]

Wait, but he also pagetopped.

Shit, now I don't know what to do.

[Something_Smart]

ss do you feel like you should be readable so far?

"Should" is pretty ambiguous. I think that there's probably something in there if people happen to find it, but I wouldn't expect any individual person to find anything, if that makes sense?

[Something_Smart]

i feel very opaque in this game in a way which i don't normally feel very opaque. i feel like you feel transparent in this game, but not in a way that actually makes it easy to read you.

lmao, that is highly accurate.

I guess my scumgame has just gotten better?

[Something_Smart]

Also, not really a fan of how 1882 is a soft of a soft.

Yeah, i pointed that shit out.

Oh. It wasn't. But townpoints for saying that.

[Something_Smart]

That wouldn't make sense anyway, because role doesn't imply alignment in this game. So even if I had softed, I wouldn't expect people to townread me off of it.

[Something_Smart]

Get out of my pedits :3

[Something_Smart]

Wasn’t there a tell for House way back when that he’d save that sort of comment for the scum PT? I swear I remember something like that

I mean I imagine that's a tell for most people, that was the reason for saying so. But, I was actually thinking back to my games with House and he does strike me as the type who would say it out loud for towncred, so I may end up walking that read back.

[Something_Smart]

Something_Smart, can you clear up whether you agree with my theories or were making fun out of them? My opinion on you heavily depends on it.

The latter. Sorry

[Something_Smart]

I think that Thor should out his main.

[Something_Smart]

Because he is claiming to be quite possibly the worst person at understanding setups on the entire site. And that may be true, but statistically it probably isn't.

[Something_Smart]

Thor, why don't you want to reveal your main? I doubt many people would remember you or know who you are, so it wouldn't mean anything to most people.

[Something_Smart]

Looking forward to seeing the worst and Something_Smart tied at 6 votes each tomorrow.

How can you see into my nightmares

[Something_Smart]

I think vca will be super juicy later.

Press X to doubt

[Something_Smart]

Interesting.

[Something_Smart]

That’s s_s’s day 1 as much as it irritates me. There is better reasoning out there for others atm.

I... I feel like I'm used to you being harder on me than this? Maybe it's just that I've rolled scum against you a lot?

[Something_Smart]

With any luck, S_S will do something readable today, r-right?

Maybe?

[Something_Smart]

Why would scum box themselves into scumreading another buddy when the one that's currently being scumread is in danger of being eliminated?

Loldistancing?

It happens.

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: Thor

He's still doing it and the guy who called him out for doing it just died

[Something_Smart]

If you reveal your main I'll probably unvote you ftr.

[Something_Smart]

S_S Stop alt hunting. He doesn't want to reveal so leave him be.

I mean the problem is that either he's this bad at understanding mechanics or he's scum trolling, and very few people are this bad at understanding mechanics. So if he can prove he has a history of this, then I won't think he's scum trolling anymore.

[Something_Smart]

Or he's an established scummer trying to get more into mechsolving without potentially screwing up the meta on their main?

I mean if he's an established scummer pretending to not understand mechanics I think that's just gamethrowing?

[Something_Smart]

Like - that’s a stupid thing to fake as either alignment.

It's not as if it's less stupid if it's genuine, at this point. So that's not really an argument against it.

And plus, I don't know what you're making this out to be, but this is a serious read-- if nothing else because ducky pushed on him and died.

[Something_Smart]

Okay, if you insist.

VOTE: PenguinPower

[Something_Smart]

Titus got neighborizer though right?

[Something_Smart]

Titus got neighborizer when Enchant died, I mean.

[Something_Smart]

Would be fun if you decided to play the game instead of alt guess and lolvote.

It's not a lolvote. Why did you wait until tw was dead to push against his logic?

[Something_Smart]

Am I misremembering? I thought he was the one who argued that Thor was scummy for messing up mechanics. And now you're pushing back against it, but you didn't push against it yesterday.

[Something_Smart]

UB typically works on roles of the same alignment
Idk about the functionality in this setup though

The sample role PM's don't say anything about alignment.

[Something_Smart]

I would advise Titus not to clarify on whether she inherited Enchant's role.

Scum can just ask this if they want to know. It's an open setup.

[Something_Smart]

I disagree with him as to the use of mechanics, not the read.

Disagree with tw? Didn't he push the same angle that you just tried to shoot down from me?

[Something_Smart]

@mod: can UB inherit a role of the opposite alignment?

[Something_Smart]

Bullshit. ducky wasn't trying to force a player to out their alt under a flimsy pretense.

I'm not trying to force anything... Thor is welcome to not out his alt and get pushed by me. Ducky wasn't even giving him a choice.

[Something_Smart]

Well, that's assuming that he's actually as bad at mechanics as he's acting. If he isn't, then he doesn't have that option, you are right.

[Something_Smart]

I'll put it this way, if it makes it clearer: I've seen lots of scum players use incredibly shady tactics, including (but not limited to) playing on an alt in a way that they would never get away with playing on their main, to the point where I can believe that some people (especially old ones) might try this as scum.

Whereas, I don't think I've met a single person who displayed both the amount of interest in mechanics and the amount of ineptitude with mechanics that Thor has. I've seen some people be bad at mechanics; but that's because they don't care, and they would never go to the lengths he did to make these theories.

[Something_Smart]

How else do you want to defend your behavior?

What about my behavior needs defending?

[Something_Smart]

I'm not trying to coerce him into outing his main. I'm trying to sort him, and if he's town, then him revealing his main will help that. It's not my fault that that's the case.

[Something_Smart]

I mean... I'm playing to win. It will help my wincon. It's not against any rules. I'm sorry you don't like it.

[Something_Smart]

In fact, the argument could be made that everyone protecting him is gamethrowing, because they're playing to an out-of-game benefit (letting Thor keep his alt) over their wincon.

[Something_Smart]

That's fair. But do you understand my point of view?

[Something_Smart]

Seems to me that you are bringing in account status as an in game reason. Again. Probably not a discussion for this game.

I mean, as long as meta is an in-game reason, so is this. I'm not asking if you think this is okay-- you've made that clear. I'm just asking if you can understand my point of view.

[Something_Smart]

Nope.

No, you don't understand my point of view? Is there a part you'd like me to explain in more detail?

[Something_Smart]

It's a good thing everything is as clear-cut as math, then.

[Something_Smart]

So you think I'm 100% scum? Or what?

[Something_Smart]

I get that. But I'm not asking about whether you

like

what I did, just whether you can understand it as coming from a genuine place. Based on what you're saying, it sounds like you can? Which means we can drop it.

[Something_Smart]

I'm going to stop asking, because you clearly don't understand the question and I'm pretty sure I know the answer anyway.

[Something_Smart]

I'm sorry about the alt stuff, by the way. I agree it's problematic, but my general instinct if I think a rule is bad is to try to demonstrate that rule is bad by exploiting it. Which is a scientific approach, and it can be effective at revealing issues, but it's not always appropriate.

Given how much information Thor was giving about his main, I figured it would at least not be upsetting to him (and it seems like I was correct in that judgement), but I wasn't really thinking about if it would upset other people.

[Something_Smart]

Anyway, with that aside... I still think the argument that Thor is playing dumb has some merit. Regardless of what PP thinks, there are surely people who were historically on the site who would do that.

And I also don't want this argument to die because the person pushing it did; while PP is right that NK's happen for a variety of reasons, I think it's pretty safe to say that tw's thoughts are going to get less consideration relative to their merit because he's no longer around to push them.

[Something_Smart]

On an unrelated note, as roles are not tied to alignment, i don't believe anyone should claim for the rest of the game.

Any "good roles" that town can benefit from are "horrible roles" in the hands of scum, so their role is no reason to dismantle the wagon.

I don't think this is uniformly true-- some roles benefit town way more than they benefit scum. For example cop.

[Something_Smart]

For you to take shady actions as a scum alt, you have to take shady actions as a town alt

Oh, so like that game where unwnd rolled SK and pretended to be a newbie? He would have done that as town?

You're projecting based on your own alt experiences.

[Something_Smart]

You're better than this

Also where's your argument for

this

lol

I make pissy protest votes all the time

[Something_Smart]

Scum has motive to pick ascetic cop because of the first word in the role.

Sure, but it's still not as useful for them as it is for town. They have to either claim cop (and justify why they haven't died) or not claim cop (in which case the ascetic can hurt because it guilties them against every PR that gets feedback if there's no roleblocker).

[Something_Smart]

Also, scum can pick bp and CLAIM they picked the cop role, so I'd hammer them anyway.

Sure, but town can also pick cop and claim they picked cop. And if it's not close to lylo, and they do happen to be cop, you get free cop results by leaving them alive a few days.

Sure, having a scum flip a few days earlier is nice. But free cop results are MUCH nicer.

[Something_Smart]

Wow, I say "sure" a lot.

It's a great way of conceding that the person you're responding to has a good point, but I need to mix it up a bit, lol.

[Something_Smart]

No, I'm projecting based on Meta Manipulation tactics.

I mean projecting in the psychology sense (assuming that other people think/act similarly to you). Just because you would never play differently as scum on a gimmick alt doesn't mean nobody would. And people do, because I've seen it.

[Something_Smart]

But that is just a completely shitty vote.

Is it though? You saw my reasoning, right?

Yesterday the worst was like "guys, Thor is scum for faking mechanics mistakes" and everyone kinda ignored him.

Today, after he's dead, I was like "guys, Thor is scum for faking mechanics mistakes" and PP was like "no that argument is stupid and you are stupid". And I would have loved for him to say that back when tw was alive, so that he could help me argue against it, and I have no idea why he didn't. That's why I voted him.

[Something_Smart]

If she claims cop, we would judge her based on her result.

That too. If nothing else, she may have investigative info to share.

[Something_Smart]

For you to take shady actions as a scum alt, you have to take shady actions as a town alt

Wait, what is this if not a counterargument to my Thor vote? My whole reasoning was that Thor was playing in a shady way as scum that he wouldn't as town.

[Something_Smart]

Small problem... I'm not attacking your Thor vote.

Reread the post you quoted. It's explaining my PP vote.

[Something_Smart]

Do you honestly believe that people alt just so they can openwolf freely?

I think that's at least as believable as someone being supposedly experienced on the site and making as many baffling mistakes as he has made.

[Something_Smart]

Like, he apparently didn't know how role randomization worked, or what a bah post was (despite these being way more common in the past), or who was playing in the game, or how to check people's post counts. But he seems to be pretty familiar with the site. It's not impossible, but it's unlikely, so other unlikely options look more likely by comparison.

[Something_Smart]

reads like thor reasoning to me. But I am stoned and tired, so will reread later.

Please do, it's not exactly easy to follow. In a nutshell:
- Ducky raised arguments against Thor. PP did not address them.
- Ducky died overnight.
- I raised the same arguments against Thor. PP jumped in to argue against them.

[Something_Smart]

Or, I didn’t see them and find this funny.

Sure, that's entirely possible, but it's pretty annoying. I felt like it was a pretty prominent thing at that time.

[Something_Smart]

I guess. It's really weird what my mind latches onto sometimes.

[Something_Smart]

UNVOTE:

[Something_Smart]

Oh good, he's gone.

[Something_Smart]

Bee is Vigilante 100%.

This is really hurting my brain.

[Something_Smart]

And just think, if it had been one post later I might never have noticed it again. Take that, pagetop fans.

[Something_Smart]

Ah yes.

[Something_Smart]

Anyone else have thoughts on 24? Is that S/S?

Since scum already know that Bee is a PR, I was thinking it might be worth it for her to claim today in case she has valuable info.

[Something_Smart]

And, you know, in case she's scum, because her draft position makes that fairly likely and she hasn't done much to change that.

[Something_Smart]

Also this:

significantly more likely

little higher

Enchant downplayed the chance of scum rolling high in the draft.

[Something_Smart]

Why do you read page bottoms but not page tops?

Well in that case it's because it was page 1 and I was looking at the OP.

[Something_Smart]

Because he hammered without a claim twice?

He could have singlehandedly lost us the game if either of them had been a strong PR. And probably he would have continued to do harm if left alive.

[Something_Smart]

Depends on the PR...

[Something_Smart]

I mean, he was also obv town and a bit of a loose cannon, so maybe they just didn't want to deal with him.

But yeah the kills have been a little weird.

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: Bee

[Something_Smart]

Isn't Thor a vig claim?

[Something_Smart]

I have the power to kill and I'm willing to direct my shot based on what town thinks is best.

Seems more hard than soft.

If only there were a vig role that couldn't shoot till a specific night, that might explain why he hasn't shot yet...

[Something_Smart]

Interesting, I thought you'd wait for a claim - or do you simply believe that Enchant stuff is strong enough?

I'm trying to get a claim

[Something_Smart]

You realise that the claims mean nothing without flips anyway?
The PRs aren't alignment locked.

You realize that PR's can do useful things if they aren't killed? And may even have results that will be valuable if they do die...

[Something_Smart]

Not really a hard claim given there are three roles in this game that he could be referring to.

He also said he had a left-side role.

[Something_Smart]

We cannot allow a wagon to dissipate based on a PR claim.

Uh, why not? If someone's cop, scum will basically have to kill them if they're town, and they will probably end up guaranteeing their own loss if they are scum and don't out themself.

[Something_Smart]

Why are you trying to get Bee to claim right now? I don't get it.

Because we know she's a PR, probably a strong one, and if she has info we don't want to lose it. And I suspect her.

[Something_Smart]

Or the scum claimed cop can true claim all the way through to YOLO, or given the kills we have, scum have a giggle

Then they have to confirm like 4 people as town though...

[Something_Smart]

Also just draft placement + sheepiness + general unimpressive presence.

[Something_Smart]

Titus?

[Something_Smart]

A neighborizer isn't exactly a high priority NK.

Yeah this.

[Something_Smart]

I mean if someone claims obviously stupid checks then yeah sure we can kill them.

[Something_Smart]

Hmm yeah not pushing the N3 vig on D3 really is mysterious

[Something_Smart]

That doesn't really prove anything with respect to his alignment. He could just be scum trueclaiming.

Even if he's scum he can still help town with his shot! It's not about being a vig being towny, it's about him being able to help town with his role.

And you dropped your push on him coming in today before he claimed N3 vig.

I dropped it when he claimed a killing power...

[Something_Smart]

Yes.

[Something_Smart]

All that aside... I don't see why CSF thinks those things I did are scummy. Like why would I push Thor right after killing the person who would have helped me with that the most? And why do I push the top person in the draft-- a guaranteed PR-- when nobody else has shown support there? What do these things

gain

me as scum?

[Something_Smart]

Anyone who hasn't claimed?

[Something_Smart]

And anyone who has claimed whom people don't show interest in killing.

[Something_Smart]

That is... quite a lot of support for a wagon that has no reason behind it.