White flag #824 game over

[implosion]

you know what you did

you told me you were going to drop this :\

[implosion]

I think I wanna try something a bit different this game. During the first couple days of D1, I want everyone to pick out two people. For the rest of D1, you must treat them as hard town, working with them to try and form reads, push scum, and solve the game. I think in a setup like this, a tactic like what I’m suggesting could bear some tasty fruit.

I already have a my two picks kinda set in my head and I’d rather people make selections before interactions start to really get going, so to start us off I’m picking Infinity324 and MURDERCAT.

how would you feel about every player in the game picking Infinity324 and MURDERCAT?

[implosion]

I'm gonna play this game old school style and only post 25 times total throughout the entire game to show you youngins how we used to do things in the old days.

Prepare for wallposts like you've never even seen before.

Is there a reason you chose to spend 4% of your allotment on this announcement?

[implosion]

It was Witty Banter.

[implosion]

Gamma I think is very probably town.

[implosion]

dwlee likely town for that.

[implosion]

VOTE: Datisi

Don't like his slate of posting so far. 14, 44, 46 and 47 all feel like "yes, i am here and doing things in this game, and thinking about things, how are you fellow townies". Especially the latter two. I also feel like the statement "my rvs vote is no longer rvs"

has

to be >rand scum. It just has to be. I don't really see how 20 from me being a "vaguely pointless question" makes it a scummy post. I can certainly understand seeing that post as scummy but I don't like the way Datisi's described it.

I want to call N_M's play so far townie and am not sure what Gamma is talking about with MURDERCAT about it.

[implosion]

dwlee likely town for that.

can you elaborate on this one? I don't see how that post makes Dwlee any more likely town, he's just accepting a townread on him from Flea

I also don't vibe with your Datisi scumread, I feel 47 is town!indicative from him because if he were scum wanting to bullshit a read on me he would have likely checked the Coalition game first to see whether he could find something different in my play, rather than claiming suspicion first without checking. Forgetting that I naked voted in the last game doesn't feel to me like the kind of fake thought process that scum would make up if he knew I'm town here

It doesn't have to do with him being one of Flea's townreads (I didn't notice that, so if that's what Dwlee was doing then ignore this); I had thought Flea's posting looked townish at a glance but not enough to mention it and I think it's not a read that scum has that much incentive to give at that moment. The thread hadn't been posted in for an hour and I think it's more likely for town to come in and say "this opening looks town" than for scum to come in and give a townread on someone who had no reads on them yet.

Regarding Datisi: I don't think the forgetting that you naked voted is fake? I don't see why scum Datisi can't have seen your vote here and said "oh, i think this is a difference in GL's play" and then gone back and seen that it wasn't. The read on him is partially tonal as well.

[implosion]

I thought about it a little and I think I can allow myself to TR NM for now
I just hope his play has some real dimensionality to it going forward

Elaborate on what you thought about a little?

[implosion]

VOTE: Datisi

Don't like his slate of posting so far. 14, 44, 46 and 47 all feel like "yes, i am here and doing things in this game, and thinking about things, how are you fellow townies". Especially the latter two. I also feel like the statement "my rvs vote is no longer rvs"

has

to be >rand scum. It just has to be. I don't really see how 20 from me being a "vaguely pointless question" makes it a scummy post. I can certainly understand seeing that post as scummy but I don't like the way Datisi's described it.

I want to call N_M's play so far townie and am not sure what Gamma is talking about with MURDERCAT about it.

Explain what's wrong with the first four posts you quoted.

I... did? It's not like it's incredibly complicated or robust or anything. (And I'm not really interested in convincing anyone anymore so)

I also don't vibe with your Datisi scumread, I feel 47 is town!indicative from him because if he were scum wanting to bullshit a read on me he would have likely checked the Coalition game first to see whether he could find something different in my play,

rather than claiming suspicion first without checking

. Forgetting that I naked voted in the last game doesn't feel to me like the kind of fake thought process that scum would make up if he knew I'm town here

i am not sure i like this. specifically the bolded part, that never happened. i didn't claim suspicion on you without checking - at the time of typing 47, i had already checked coalition and knew you weren't actually suspicious for naked voting.

you're correct that scum!me doesn't fake forgetting you naked voted there. however, implo is right in saying that it's possible (from your pov at least) that this is scum!me genuinely forgetting you naked voted in coalition, going back to check whether that's true and whether i can shitpush you on that basis, and then realizing that no, i cannot, because i misremembered; but hey, makes a nice ~solvey~ post.

like, this post gives me a vague feeling of guiltylion knowing i'm town and working backwards to make this post, as opposed to working out my alignment, if that makes sense?

I like this post (and I liked it before seeing that I got unvoted on the next page). I'm interested to see how GL's game plays forward because of how my read on him in coalition went (namely he was repeatedly posting things that I thought were very town). I don't want to like, BoP or like, burden of... something him based on that one game but.

VOTE: Datisi

Don't like his slate of posting so far. 14, 44, 46 and 47 all feel like "yes, i am here and doing things in this game, and thinking about things, how are you fellow townies". Especially the latter two. I also feel like the statement "my rvs vote is no longer rvs"

has

to be >rand scum. It just has to be. I don't really see how 20 from me being a "vaguely pointless question" makes it a scummy post. I can certainly understand seeing that post as scummy but I don't like the way Datisi's described it.

i don't

love

this obviously, but i can see where it's coming from. "how are you fellow townies" feels like a good enough description of my play so far (something something weak early game, rvs is bad), and while i'm tired of the "datisi scum because weak/akward/jokey tone!" reads, i've heard them from town enough times to not get worked up over them.

an egoistical part of me also wanted to say that i don't think implo chooses *me* to attack with such reasoning, but pretty sure he's also never seen my towngame, so /shrug.

also, i liked the first part of 86, so. UNVOTE:

This is an interesting response because part of my issue with those posts are that they kind of reminded me of things that i misread as town from you in the one game we've played together (that I remember at least). Unvoting me is also very interesting. It seems like it'd be pretty easy to double down here as scum when my wagon has even gained momentum since I posted this and I think there's plenty in my reasoning that you could object to on grounds that you could claim are alignment indicative.

[implosion]

But why would scum!Datisi go through with posting that regardless afterwards once he confirmed it wasn't indicative and I was consistent across the two games?

...why not? He'd just be doing it to emulate a town thought process. But etc.

I think dwlee's reaction to the votes on him is probably townish. It feels too willing to be in the limelight to be scum. I like Infinity's play so far though I'm definitely biased because she called me town when I was getting annoyed at the votes on me. Gamma's place in the game feels exactly like some distant memory of a game or two, years ago, where he was really contentious and I was hard townreading him and he was town.

[implosion]

reactions to the votes on them*

[implosion]

the game I pulled my exercise from was probably from around that time if you mean what I think you do (the game I'm guessing you're referring to rn is Mini 1838)

It is that game, and I just found this gem of a quote from my ISO from the point in the game where I was heavily scumreading you:

And I think the most damning thing about Gamma (which I've mentioned but no one seems to have noticed) is still this flat-out contradiction. It's indicative that he doesn't actually have a consistent internal state of reads in his head; if he actually didn't hold the opinion that LUV was probably town, he straight-up would never have explicitly called LUV town. The fact that he called LUV town and then said that he doesn't actually believe LUV is town (just that a particular argument was bad) is very strong evidence that he's just pretending to have reads on people.

This isn't like me saying "gamma making contradictions is never scummy" but it is an amusing/interesting coincidence. I think Gamma thinks about things in a way that people can be prone to misinterpret. Although I also just don't agree that the thing bugspray mentioned is a contradiction.

[implosion]

interesting in this case means probably townish and i should have said that. or well i kind of implied that with the unvoting thing in the next sentence. My memory of what those things were/are are like, vaguely things that were actually playstyle. I'll need to find the game to be more specific than that. And I cannot for the life of me find it.

[implosion]

Yeah I found it myself and looked over it and my opinion on you in that game was weirder than I remember it being. My memory of that game was mostly just like, I generally found you townish and I couldn't really remember any specific reasons other than them being things that in retrospect were probably playstyle. Even looking over it I feel like I don't have a great sense of it so I'll probably put minimal weight in my memory of your play.

[implosion]

if pooky is town this will make his record for reading me 0 for 3. exciting.

[implosion]

notably, all of them being them calling me scum with me being town!!!!!!!!!

[implosion]

yes, i am in fact sick of pooky's shit!

[implosion]

I didn't call you scum in coalition.

fuck off.

[implosion]

i don't care about not being in the coalition; i care about you making no effort to read me in that game but saying you thought my takes were bad, and now literally calling EVERY SINGLE POST IN THIS GAME THAT I'VE MADE scummy when you have a history of misreading me and claiming i'm hard to read

[implosion]

god this is the first time i've been genuinely angry in like months

[implosion]

i'm going to close MS for at least most of the day

[implosion]

and especially how would my vote on Dwlee make sense as a partner vote when this is explicitly a setup that punishes bussing more than usual? Like if I were scum the last thing I would be doing right now is voting a partner when I could probably come up with an excuse to vote almost anyone

thinking about it more I'm having a hard time seeing how us being partners is a genuine read or thought

VOTE: goats

This is very one-dimensional. "The last thing I would be doing right now is voting a partner" when we're in the first day or two of the game, and Datisi wasn't really a wagon with steam, is a vapid take. A setup that disincentivizes bussing necessarily incentivizes effective distancing; if you think you can distance from a buddy by voting as scum here, you will. Your vote isn't gonna make it that likely that they'll be eliminated at this point. How is it the last thing scum would do? I don't even think it's really disincentivized at this point. It's certainly disincentivized for scum to bus a partner that has a likely chance of going down soon but at this point I'm skeptical that you'd really be suspicious of someone for saying something might be a partner vote.

I didn't have any strong scumreads and Dwlee hadn't done anything to read him off of, that makes him a good vote. The issue is your thought process, apparently "scum who has no other viable options voting his partner on early D1" is somehow more likely than "town with a handful of townreads on active players pushing an inactive slot to participate"? I can't see that coming from someone reasoning about my posts in good faith

This in turn feels remarkably like reasoning about someone else's posts not in good faith.

Like even using your own logic, if the vote is so half baked or easily moved that I get no anti-associative credit from it, then what would be the benefit to scum!me for doing it? Again, why vote my partner over anyone else if I'm just locking myself into needing to back off of it later?

This also seems like trying to have your cake and eat it too. You're saying that goats's logic is wrong because scum wouldn't want to bus right now because the setup disincentivizes it, *but also* scum wouldn't bus right now because they won't get anti-associative credit from it if they can move it. Doesn't the second logic invalidate the first? I know you're saying "using your own logic" but the same trick can be flipped on you here. Using your own logic, if your vote on dwlee should be interpreted as evidence that you're not scumbuddies, then you have incentive to make that vote as scumbuddies. Conversely, your vote is so half baked and easy to move that you no longer have any reason *not* to vote them; you might not be getting anti-associative credit but you also aren't putting them at risk. This isn't logic, it's just a choose-your-own-adventure masquerading as logic.

UNVOTE: Datisi
VOTE: GuiltyLion

[implosion]

FWIW most of the scumminess in those posts to me is 220 and 222. I'm not convinced the other two are scummy rather than just being faulty logic. My main problem is the vote on goats and the one-dimensionality of saying scum wouldn't bus right now.

[implosion]

VOTE: Datisi

Don't like his slate of posting so far. 14, 44, 46 and 47 all feel like "yes, i am here and doing things in this game, and thinking about things, how are you fellow townies". Especially the latter two. [...] I don't really see how 20 from me being a "vaguely pointless question" makes it a scummy post.

Is overtly trying to appear towny something that town are less likely to do than scum early on? It's the question I'm asking myself in regards to Gamma actually I think. A lot of Gamma's posts are reading as 'hello, look at me, being town, this is what I think town is supposed to do.' But I've seen enough instances of that being a townie's line of play that I'm hesitant to call it a scumtell.

@implosion:

it's not massively relevant anymore but I'd appreciate a response to this nonetheless if you get a chance

In the middle of catching up now

I think in theory town are probably thinking less on average about it early. But in principal it's the kind of thing where context (meta, what they're talking about, etc) can be used to read it either way.

[implosion]

Also if a townie is doing something specifically to overtly try to appear towny then if called out they could even explain that that's what they're doing, in theory. 'Tis moot though.

[implosion]

I mean yes? I don't look at the first or second vote of my scumreads and assume that means they're partnered or aligned, that's usually evidence they aren't aligned

This is still bad-faith interpretation of goats.

They're not saying you voted dwlee, therefore you're both scum; they're not even saying that you voting dwlee is necessarily evidence that you're both scum. All they've said is that they independently think the two of you are scum and that the vote

could

be a partner vote. Their original phrasing was literally "I think GL's vote on Dwlee can easily be partnered." Not "GL is scummy for their vote on Dwlee looking like a bus" or even "GL's vote on Dwlee is scummy". Just that it *could* be.

How is it good faith to say that goats is "looking at the first or second vote and assuming they're partnered"?

[implosion]

"The last thing I would be doing right now is voting a partner" when we're in the first day or two of the game, and Datisi wasn't really a wagon with steam, is a vapid take.

how is it vapid??

like, let's say I scum with Dwlee, I vote him, he picks up a handful of votes and then I decide to bail because his wagon is getting too serious. That's going to look infinitely worse on us if either of us were to flip?? that's absolutely not how I play scum, pointlessly set myself up for a harder-to-navigate trajectory for no real gain whatsoever.

How can you not see this as a misrep?

3) GL says "I can't possibly be partners with dwlee, I voted him one time!"

That's never the argument I'm making, and this:

This also seems like trying to have your cake and eat it too. You're saying that goats's logic is wrong because scum wouldn't want to bus right now because the setup disincentivizes it, *but also* scum wouldn't bus right now because they won't get anti-associative credit from it if they can move it. Doesn't the second logic invalidate the first? I know you're saying "using your own logic" but the same trick can be flipped on you here

is exactly the point. There's not really a strong reason to see it as partner indicative, if anything like I said it'd be slightly less so - so the fact that goats concludes an explanation that requires the most assumptions (scum!Dwlee, scum!GL, scum!GL votes partner) is agenda-driven thinking.

To the first point: that might not be how you look at scum play. It's absolutely how plenty of people do, you're just painting that kind of tactic in the worst possible light. A lot of the time the wagon will never coalesce and you get distancing cred. A lot of the time a wagon will coalesce then break apart with you still on it and you get even more cred. Sometimes a wagon will form and you'll have to make a choice over whether to push or not push; that's the worst case scenario in principal but there are boons even then (you could push and then try to ride that cred out and hard protect your other scumbuddy, or you could leave the wagon late because of WIFOM value, etc, etc). I'm mostly concerned that you're just acting like this is a cut-and-dry kind of thing. You're not necessarily saying that scum can

never

do this but you're acting as if no one could possibly have any reason for thinking that you *could* be doing it. That's what I mean when I say my main problem was you voting goat. You're not considering that other people view the game differently.

To the second point: as I just said, goats, as far as I can tell, has never once claimed that you voting Dwlee *is* partner-indicative. They've kind of implied that they think it might be but that's in response to you pushing them for reasons. Their initial claim was just that it could be, that it doesn't rule out you two being partners.

You

are the one making the active claim that your vote on Dwlee should be indicative that you're not partners. So you're the one for whom this "have it both ways" logic is invalid.

goats is misrepping you, but goats is clearly doing it for rhetoric/exaggeration purposes (which, i understand can be annoying for you, but is not scummy) and you are misrepping them in turn.

goats can feel free to correct me if they do in fact think that you voting dwlee was a tell that you two are partnered, but I think that you're just reading into that.

[implosion]

And to that point, I don't personally see anything ridiculous about scum!GL/scum!Dwlee. I happen to think Dwlee is townish right now but I don't have any like, ontological issue with thinking you can both be scum just because you voted them.

(Well, actually ironically I think your reaction to this since then makes it very unlikely that you're both scum, but low prior likelihood, etc. I don't see it as a ridiculous take before the past couple of pages certainly.)

[implosion]

And also to be clear GL if you are town and riled up then please do take the time you need to come back and look at things calmly.

[implosion]

I am interested in why @implosion thinks that GL would not react like this if he is partners with Dwlee. especially with Dwlee continuing to defend him after his attack on me.

I think his frustration and rhetoric of "I wouldn't play like this as scum" reads as genuine/I think faking that kind of thing (just absolutely blatantly lying about self-meta and claiming he can back it up) is not the kind of thing GL would do there as scum with Dwlee.

I can agree with GL that Flea's 276 is somewhat shady. I can also agree with Datisi's 299 that that line from GL is somewhat townish.

More later at some point.

[implosion]

man i sure did space out extremely hard today and don't have the energy to give this game the thoughts it deserves. I will do so in the morning.

[implosion]

@implosion + MURDERCAT: aside from the people who are clearly against it and Not_Mafia, y’all are the only two to not do my thing yet. Would you like to pick some people or are you opting out?

Doing this is semi-indistinguishable from my normal playstyle to a degree. I usually find some hard townreads early and never really re-evaluate them until later. You and maybe like, Infinity are at that point. So do with that what you will.

re: 299

if you think GL is not partners with Dwlee but has independent scum equity then you should be a lot less willing to give him cred for 299. b/c getting frustrated and throwing out a bunch of meta links to prove your accusers wrong is something that scum who is caught for the wrong reasons could easily say, too. in a world where GL is scum but not with Dwlee and he's upset that I'm suspecting him for being paired with Dwlee when he's really not... he might easily have that reaction and try to use meta to rebut the part of my accusation he actually can.

While this is partially true I also think GL is a good enough player to realize that getting these receipts does basically nothing for him in the face of people who are saying he's independently scummy. Like, it's not the actual getting of the receipts that is townish, it's the indignation.

I'm somewhat offput by goats's arc on GL at this point; in particular 351 is extremely out-for-blood in a world where quite a few people (me, datisi, infinity) that were not on goats's scumdar (in fact, this is exactly the list that they used to reinforce their point in 309) were starting to flip on GL. It's a little odd to me that, while they are trying to convince us that GL is still scum, they're not really acknowledging that there is real reason to have divested from GL suspicion. I'm not saying they themselves need to but the "I want to see who's on counterwagons" line is a bit strong. Even if it is like somewhat sardonic based on the 2nd line of the post.

[implosion]

Alright. All caught up.

I feel reasonably good about calling town:

Gamma, Dwlee, Infinity.


I feel less solid but still want to call town:

Datisi, GuiltyLion, Not_Mafia.


I don't feel strongly:

Pooky, Klick


I don't really feel comfortable putting them in the tier above this or the tier below this atm (i.e. a combo of "scummyish" and "needs more info"):

MURDERCAT, bugspray


I feel are scummy:

goats, Flea

---

Right now I don't have a problem with a MURDERCAT yeet but I definitely don't want it happening imminently. It's also entirely possible that as I explain some reads they will change but this is a snapshot of how I feel atm.

[implosion]

Unvote

why is guiltylion a "duh"? i don't think you actually said anything about him, other than you liked he kicked your ass into high gear, and then later on that you don't see anything scummy from him. did i miss you talking more in depth about him somewhere?

also uh, do you wanna talk about anything wrt me?

GuiltyLion is a duh because

his whole thing with goats is confusing to understand

what's confusing about it?

Genuine frustration but as I said before it could be a caught for the wrong reasons thing and if he is town I kinda get what he is saying about your push on him? Which is why you're also in my confused pile.

i don't buy this at all, it just feels like an excuse to vote goats or gl later/when one of them flips

if dwlee really believed this, they'd probably be at least questioning goats and trying to sort them if not voting them, since the most likely scenario from their pov is that gl is town. and they had gl as an actual townread earlier.

I don't have to poke and prod in every single direction at once jfc

This is one specific thing I want to bring up since I feel pretty good about both Infinity and Dwlee.

I think Dwlee's response here strikes exactly the right note; their play this game just reads like they're vibing generally, I get the sense that they don't feel overly pressured even as people are pressuring them. I think the directions they've gone in are sensible from a town perspective. I can be more specific if desired I think.

[implosion]

Regarding goats: it really feels like they're using their GL scumread as a laurel to rest on. 393 (which Datisi mentioned looked scummy to him) is just... extremely

not

the reply that post deserves. That post was aggressively pro-town, it just reads to me as a townie desperately trying to both stop the gamestate from becoming harder to play in and to reach out and try to correct an erroneous scumread that is perceived to potentially cost like two miselims. If goats literally started reading that post and then decided to stop I'm just skeptical that they're really trying to discern alignments.

I don't think arrogance is necessarily scummy, but I think goats is, simply put, tunneling (yes they have indicated another scumread on MURDERCAT, yes they are still tunneling on GL) and I think it's a scummy tunnel. Things like 412 and the already-mentioned by me a couple posts ago 351 feel performative. Almost all of goats's analysis this game day has been through a lens of GuiltyLion-is-scum; ironically, despite me earlier defending them because they were claiming independent scumreads on GL and Dwlee, it feels like most of what goats posts now would just fall away and become empty if GL were to flip town. There's not even a slight twinge of potentially being wrong, not a sliver when, again, lots of players are saying GL is acting townish now. Sometimes they're trying to dispel those people's reads but idk, it just feels off to me. I feel like none of their other analysis has been nearly as up to snuff as their detailed breakdown of GL and that breakdown has been, in retrospect, kind of one-dimensional given that I think GL's play at this point has a lot of depth to it.

[implosion]

Regarding Flea: I don't have anything nearly so concrete. I read faer iso and idk there was that one post that GL called scummy that I agreed with and some wallish catchups and not a whole lot else there. Really probably should be in the same tier as bugspray/MC. the tiers are just so much more symmetrical this way.

[implosion]

implo, why is infinity town?

i'm getting vaguely townish vibes but i do not trust myself to confidently sort her yet (or maybe ever idk lol)

She feels very focused on just solving the game. Th eway she flipped on GL after calling him "just scum" is exactly the opposite of what I'm complaining about with goats, where I think she clearly is updating reads with new evidence. Idk I think in general it's just that she is doing basically nothing but productively solving.

[implosion]

i have probably analyzed more players than you btw

o...okay?

[implosion]

Sure.

VOTE: bugspray

[implosion]

what has bugspray even done in this game

an excellent question

[implosion]

Pooky, I think you are onto something so I'll do MC or bugs today and I think both just flip red so whatever. Feel like maybe goats is third and he was okay bussing MC but realizes that if bugs dies here it's over cause MC follows? Idk.

I will say, this post is just a little bit buck wild. 12 choose 3 = 220, etc.

[implosion]

Because by that point I had already determined both implo and datisi were town and you should have too

I do think this is strange because I don't have history playing with you, and certainly not with you and Pooky at the same time. Why should Pooky-specifically have been able to read me-specifically (and Datisi I guess but more interested in me) at that point in the game?

[implosion]

pooky, if bugspray's town meta is to do nothing, do you consider bugspray trivially easy to read based just off of their activity level and nothing else? Or do they do nothing as either alignment?

[implosion]

hrmpvh.

I'm very interested in the juxtaposition of Infinity "this is very obviously MC's town meta" 324 and PookyThe "this is very obviously not MC's town meta" MagicalBear.

I want to proxy my read on him to other people but it's difficult when not all other players in the game agree on what his alignment is.

[implosion]

And I can see not really wanting to yeet bugspray. I just don't really feel any impetus to not vote there bc... they aren't doing anything. If their town meta is literally to not play the game then idk, a policy lim on d1 in this kind of setup isn't even that bad.

Alternatively the wagon could make them actually do anything at all.

[implosion]

why would I reassess on you GL? have you done anything worth reassessing? have you voted out scum or shown me how you're out of your scum range?

until then all you've done is write long wordy posts that sound v reasonable and nice to get people to townread you and thrown about some easily faked frustration here and there and suddenly the whole game is eating out of your hand when they agreed you were scummy af before. i don't buy it.

This post is not how town with a continued scumread acts.

Town here will talk to other people to convince them of gl being scum. Town has no reason to explain to gl why they’re not reassessing him.

Scum will talk to gl because it performs confidence in the scumread.

[implosion]

what's up this is my first time looking at the thread

Assuming this was the 2nd head of the hydra: why the pop in with no further comment? Are you planning to participate in the game, or just let your other head?

[implosion]

goats claimed to be a hydra in signups.

I don't feel anything strongly about nsg's entrance.

That said,

Unvote

[implosion]

if MC wants people to vote one of him or Dwlee then like, i'll vote him if he wants

[implosion]

asdf

super mega hyper townpost

[implosion]

Okay. Here's where I'm at.

I pretty strongly disagree with GL+whoever else said that goats's hydra dissonance is townie. I think it's very possible the 2nd head saw they were scum, said "well fuck that i don't feel like playing the game" then 4 days later was like "well i have some time i guess i can pop in and see what's up" or etc. With that said I have mixed feelings about the 2nd heads actual posting.

I kind of think Infinity does come off slightly bad in the "1v1" with pooky. Pooky comes off as *probably* town, I do remember them tantruming like this at least once as town and I don't really see it as a go-to tactic in this situation and like, it would be lampshady as heck to say "well obviously i'm not gonna 1v1 you infinity lmao don't be ridiculous" and then 1v1 infinity. Infinity comes off as far more reasonable but I do think the interactions can make sense with her as scum. I definitely have memories of scumgames where I'd like, give a weak offhand scumread, not really to shade a person just because it's what I think I'd do as town, and then they go off on me and I'd have to go into damage control mode, and I think Infinity's line would make sense as that kind of thing. It's not strong enough for me to have any real suspicion of her at this point given the rest of her play but I don't really agree with the take that it comes off strongly as TvT.

I think N_M falling off in posting is, potentially, actually scummy. From how I'm 2ndhand interpreting how to read him based on some offhand things PenguinPower said in another game I think his trajectory can quite easily be scum. Game dynamics make him feel like a better elimination than Flea right now. They both kind of feel like "this slot will never truly be all that readable" votes but, my understanding of the modern world is that it is actually possible to townread N_M. And if it is possible to do so, then this game is distinctly not something where it's really justifiable to do so right now.

VOTE: Not_Mafia

[implosion]

I'm willing to vote Flea as well if the wagon gets bigger, I'm happy to push for an end to the day at this point if it's one of the people I don't mind dying, which at this point is probably like... N_M, flea, goats (though I don't really expect momentum there but don't really care at this point that there's no way to get momentum there), situationally MC.

[implosion]

If I didn't mention someone it's likely I town read them. My top town is Gamma. Oh, I suppose I may as well explain my GuiltyLion read. Basically they post too much to be a wolf, lol. Bite me. Sort by post count is a thing, and while they're not top posting, a vast majority of their posts are solvey and they just seem like a consistent presence in that regard. Maybe I'm missing some stuff as this is cursory but until I see that I have them as decently strong town

Is this the esooa head?

[implosion]

also, as much as it pains to say, i'm still feeling n_m is town. this level of effort feels like he gives half a shit about this game. comparing it to my last two game played with him, and some other game i was skimming where bingle said that efforting!n_m is town!n_m, this is fine.

This is decisively not efforting N_M compared to the other recent games I've played with him. Look closely at his ISO. He has 24 posts in 24 hours... and then 10 posts in the almost a week since then.

How the heck is that efforting. It's showing up at the beginning and then not efforting at all after that. And the content of his posts doesn't exactly look like effort to me. Like really Datisi please justify this I have no idea what you're saying.

[implosion]

i still just do not see dwlee-scum here. Would much rather lim N_M or MC or Flea (note that contrary to popular Flea-opinion I don't really actually have a read on Flea, i was sort of ambiguous about it i guess)

[implosion]

Just look at post timestamps ignoring content. Note he died N1.

In this game, if we count the number of his posts with each possible day as a timestamp (i.e. how many times did he post on the 11th, then 12th, etc), we get:

15
10 (but again, note that 23/25 of these two days' posts were within a span of 24 hours)
1
3
0
0
4
1 (current day, could be more)

In jk9++, scum game, if we do the same:

1
0
2
0
1
1
0
3
1
0
3
0
1
0
1
4

If we do the same with the town game I linked above:

3
1
8
1
11
14 (again note that most of these two spates of posting took place in a span of 24 hours, though that weakens my point in principle)
2
3

And then d1 ended.

So idk. His first 24 hours of this game were, yes, high-effort by his standards. But his game since then looks distinctly more like the scum game. It's definitely not clearly high-effort N_M.

[implosion]

if N_M is scum then call this the implotell

[implosion]

and make a machine learning algorithm that converts these strings of numbers into alignments

[implosion]

do you see what I'm saying though about how I don't think it's likely the second head starts playing without even checking what the other head is doing? I feel a scum!hydra would be more careful than to do that

Nah, I don't really agree. At least I don't find it particularly less likely than the same thing from a town hydra. I think the refusal to talk to the other head is probably more of a "hastily planned hydra" tell than an alignment tell.

I don't wanna vote Dwlee I still think he's town, he doesn't feel like caught scum

strongly this.

[implosion]

i'm open to nsg convincing me to vote flea and implo convincing me to vote n_m. i'm gonna need a bit more than 2 games of numbers to actually make me think it's more than a policy, though.

I mean, it's barely more than policy, but you're the one who said that relatively high-efforting N_M is townier and conversely low-efforting N_M is scummier. The numbers are part of that but like look at what he's actually posting. And also the numbers since that post are... well i mean look at his post on this page :\

[implosion]

[quote="nsg"]Basically, I think that the "NSG Meta Tell" basically applies exactly to murdercat's play here.[/quote
, or "NSG Tell" for short

But yeah, this is a really interesting point and makes me feel a lot more likely on MC flipping red.

[implosion]

Basically, I think that the "NSG Meta Tell" basically applies exactly to murdercat's play here.

, or "NSG Tell" for short

But yeah, this is a really interesting point and makes me feel a lot more likely on MC flipping red.

for the fact, fixed

[implosion]

i am kind of unnerved by implo seemingly fading into the background recently. maybe it's just because he hasn't written any of those wallposts in a bit but it feels like he's playing lower effort. which doesn't necessarily imply scum but it's noticeable at least

ditto but goats~

I've been following along but there just hasn't been all that much that's modified my core of reads at this point.

[implosion]

Not convinced we auto elim pooky but I’m open to it.

[implosion]

VOTE: N_M

[implosion]

My people.

[implosion]

here.

[implosion]

I feel like if you're gonna claim BoP on Pooky and lim him then it would have to be today

There's a degree to which this is true, but there's also a degree to which the same thing is true if you replace "claim BoP on Pooky" with "deal with N_M doing jack shit".

That said, I definitely don't like Pooky opening today with a selfvote, it feels really performative. I am open to going that direction but it would make me happy to just have N_M dead since I think there's a very solid chance he just flips scum and I really can't imagine leaving him alive this game with him doing literally one thing and that thing being actively bad.

[implosion]

My activity's gonna be potentially sporadic/weird for the next week as I'm doing a lot of moving-related stuff.

[implosion]

I had a dream Pooky was mafia.

I… think I also did?

[implosion]

Golly gee, so many people speaking my language today…

[implosion]

I think I wanna try something a bit different this game. During the first couple days of D1, I want everyone to pick out two people. For the rest of D1, you must treat them as hard town, working with them to try and form reads, push scum, and solve the game. I think in a setup like this, a tactic like what I’m suggesting could bear some tasty fruit.

I already have a my two picks kinda set in my head and I’d rather people make selections before interactions start to really get going, so to start us off I’m picking Infinity324 and MURDERCAT.

how would you feel about every player in the game picking Infinity324 and MURDERCAT?

@implo

: was there any actual point to this???

Sorry, was in the car.

No.

[implosion]

Why the hell’d you ask then? You’re literally abdicating the possibility you were trying to sort me with that question by just straight up denying you had any intention with it.

I mean, it was a half assed joke about it being a somewhat silly exercise. Wasn’t much else to it. It’s not like I was desperately searching for opportunities to read Gamma Emerald, noted player who I have historically never successfully read before. It’s also not like asking that question prevents me from using your play around the question to sort you later.

[implosion]

Gosh it’d be absolutely tragic if bloodhail got quickhammered I don’t think I’d be able to recover :’(

Also merry scumday nsg!

[implosion]

Like I don’t really want the day to end immediately but I’m gonna be goddamn annoyed if that lim goes through without me on the wagon lol

[implosion]

noted player who I have historically never successfully read before.

wut
pretty sure you've had a decent trck record of finding town!me? Do you just not think you have an exact method for doing so and thus not think I'm readable yet?

This was sarcasm that I don’t need to use a gimmick like this to read you.

[implosion]

Dwlee I hard pushed goats before you did afaict. I had them and flea in the bottom tier of my reads list and then said that flea probably should have been in the tier above. At that point you'd indicated suspicion but the most you'd said was that they were a maybe-powerwolf.

(I don't mean to take away from you but I'm just also feeling very vindicated bc I feel like I historically have a hard time getting good scumreads on slots that are actually participating and I'm happy that I actually can)

I honestly haven't really thought deeply about this game in a while (like I said I've been doing moving-related stuff, I am now myself moving in a couple days and am currently sitting in an airport so should have some time to right now)

The one thing I remember wanting to say yesterday and I think I didn't say is that I give Flea quite a bit of town points for the townslip (I tend to think that fake townslips are quite a bit rarer than real ones even from people who say "i would totally do this as scum").

[implosion]

I still hard, hard townread GL and Dwlee.

Infinity I'm probably a little less certain of but still up there.

Flea I don't have any desire to lim in the near future.

Pooky I have a lot of mixed feelings on, and I mean that intentionally in that I can give what I feel are decent reasons to read them either way.

nsg I honestly haven't made a strong effort to read yet. Enchant I can barely remember a thing they posted but I guess extended-quickhammering scum is like probably a good sign? But those are the two slots I need to actually put effort into rn.

N_M saying lim me to win is... milquetoast.

[implosion]

I still hard, hard townread GL and Dwlee.

Infinity I'm probably a little less certain of but still up there.

Flea I don't have any desire to lim in the near future.

Pooky I have a lot of mixed feelings on, and I mean that intentionally in that I can give what I feel are decent reasons to read them either way.

nsg I honestly haven't made a strong effort to read yet. Enchant I can barely remember a thing they posted but I guess extended-quickhammering scum is like probably a good sign? But those are the two slots I need to actually put effort into rn.

N_M saying lim me to win is... milquetoast.

[implosion]

(That is basically an ordered read list to be clear)

[implosion]

A very brief skim of nsg iso give me not all that much feeling. The most townish thing I can point to is the one post about the nsg meta-tell which would take some effort to come up with as scum. I don't actually really know what her scum range is or what exactly she's bad at as scum.

Not really sure what to think, am willing to sheep anyone with good reasons.

[implosion]

Although tbf I am not really trying all that hard at the moment.

For someone who wondering what i hided.

I had thoughts Datisi is mafia who could know town is elimmed and easily send next vote on Pooky for that.
But now it looks like Pooky killed her exactly for that.

... Lmao, it's dumb from Pooky. Why.

Enchant, why didn't you vote Pooky at all yesterday?

[implosion]

1295 is definitely the most interesting post in Enchant's ISO. The "here's the thing I was hiding haha" thing is I think a little less likely to come from scum than from town but I'm offput by the fact that the post came immediately after two other votes on Pooky (one of them a selfvote) yet doesn't include a Pooky vote, when Enchant clearly has nothing against quickly wagoning people based on both N_M and blood.

[implosion]

Yeah I'm basically always voting Dwlee here especially after the talk about implosion's AtE.

Pooky, NM, Klick, and Infinity can be trusted. Maybe Flea.

I think GL's vote on Dwlee can easily be partnered. I would call GL my second top scumread right now.

This is a fascinating post by virtue of it mentioning every now-living player except nsg/bugspray. That "can be trusted" list i think is pretty likely to contain scum, though like, I don't think that's like a breathtaking revelation since I definitely think that even without this post. I'd be not massively but a little surprised if the list contained both other scum. There's definitely a valid interpretation of this post that points to nsg-scum though I don't think it's really compelling.

There are a couple things in the ISO that look vaugely s->s prodding of Flea to do stuff but not strongly (283, 319)

The interesting turning point in their ISO is after I call them out, they say they're bored and then I think they never really had the level of engagement or interest in the game from that point on that they had when they were tunneling GL and widely being called vaguely town. goats did kinda rail against the bugspray wagon. That whole page, I feel like, should be really valuable for discerning nsg's alignment. Like, is 517 just a big lampshade? I guess the question is first off, what would scum do in that situation if they see bugspray being wagoned based on bugspray's alignment. If bugspray is town then they could join it or advocate for it, but goats was definitely trying to be relatively focused in their suspicions toward GL, Dwlee and sometimes MC. I think the trying to deflect the wagon is definitely possible if bugspray is town. The other important context is (as Infinity pointed out) the wagon at that point was probably all town (Gamma, Dwlee, Datisi, me, Infinity). Maybe goats-scum would have been less reluctant to call the bugspray wagon good or at least not-terrible if it was an all-town wagon on town. On the flip side if bugspray is scum then the question is just would goats be so explicit about defending a scumbuddy who, at that point in the game, I think would look pretty solidly like dead weight.

[implosion]

I mentioned 517. I do think goats is arrogant enough to post it as scum-scum w/ bugs but I don't think that precludes it being scum-town.

[implosion]

white flag gambit is one thing, but enchant and nm were about to hammer. scum are almost definitely not gonna white flag gambit if there's a risk of a qh.

This doesn't apply to N_M's vote; it does apply to him saying he wanted to quickhammer though. The fact that he said he'd feel bad about quickhammering after what you said is like, idk. I think on the whole it's probably not that likely that they're both scum though. It is a good point by GL.

[implosion]

My ability to enjoy a game is hurt when...

[implosion]

that's great to hear, really makes the game enjoyable

The word of the day is,

[implosion]

I think I'm going to Formally Swap nsg and pooky in my reads list and declare that the scumteam is, without a shred of doubt, Not_Mafia and PookyTheMagicalBear.

[implosion]

VOTE: N_M

If there's momentum on Pooky for whatever reason I'll happily switch but prefer this.

@Dwlee if nsg is scum, what person/people do you see as likely partners?

[implosion]

I think the angle for goats-scum to act like that toward bugspray-town is that they were just already pushing a lot of people and no need to add another to the pile. I agree that's slightly shaky and if bugs was town then it'd be natural for goats to push/they don't really directly gain anything out of buddying bugspray.

[implosion]

I like,

can

be convinced on nsg but it'll take a fair amount. I do kind of buy her saying there's no way she'd have been trying to engage with the thread when she needed to sleep as scum to like some extent. Tbh there's a part of me that feels Pooky might even be the better lim than N_M but I just like, hate the idea of N_M living to 5p if we screw up twice and him auto-voting me and us just automatically losing if he's town. Though if he is town and we lim two other people I'd be quite surprised if we hadn't won at that point.

Pooky's play today is like quite underwhelming I think. Tonally I feel like they could just feel defeatist as scum.

[implosion]

what'd you think of my point on NM's 248?

It's something but it feels less substantial than reasons for anyone else.

[implosion]

I mean I can live with an nsg elim. I would be quite surprised if using our three eliminations on her, N_M and Pooky didn't win us the game. There is something to be said about her relative apathy in the thread even if she is busy irl; but like, Pooky's entire arc of engagement with the thread just feels scummy to me at this point when I think about it.

I have no idea how their vote on bloodhail feels like not-a-bus and I'd love for Infinity/GL to explain that to me. The vote was half-hearted and Pooky said they didn't think it was going to flip scum which is like, maybe a little bit un-bussish but like it was literally two posts. The vote was a sheep in the middle of the wagon and it just reads to me as not-really-caring-what-happens. Like just read 1439. That post is so bad. "I'm suspicious of these two people on the wagon after me but i'm not gonna unvote because i'm a good sheep." Is that like, actually how town, even despondent town, thinks about a game? Idk maybe I just need Inf/GL to explain what they see to me.

Their play today is really kind of blah. They sheeped on the nsg wagon, unvoted when nsg gave that one line, and has made a few offhand comments here and there. They say they're only underwhelming when they're town but that's literally the last word I'd use to describe their town play from what I'm familiar with.

have to submit post early bc lyft is here but i have more to say in theory

[implosion]

i kinda want to kill Enchant tbh

for why

[implosion]

day is definitely hard stalling. I'll hammer like, at some point before deadline if no one else wants to, but I would like nsg to be able to say her piece. Or peace. or whatever.

[implosion]

1 day left and nsg hasn’t posted in like 4. I guess I’ll just hammer later today?

[implosion]

maybe i'll hammer exactly at midnight my time. or maybe i'll forget to. who knows

[implosion]

VOTE: northsidegal

I really hope this is a miselim bc this would be the most anticlimactic possible ending

[implosion]

I still think dwlee/GL are town and would like to eliminate N_M or Pooky still.

Enchant, I disagree because of the context of him not hammering. He didn't hammer because Infinity made an appeal to him in a reasonable way; his reaction to that was based on him being a human and trying to be reasonable because she was being reasonable, it was probably not based on his alignment.

Or put another way,

but i don't think he ever refuse to hammer townie as mafia.

Replace "mafia" with "town" and this sentence is still correct, but it has to have happened as one of them. Why do you think it's less likely with him as mafia?

[implosion]

a cow with am impressive amount of dexterity to wield a gun

[implosion]

Not sure if you got the point of the post or not?

The point is that N_M is likely to autohammer as

either

alignment, so why are you specifically saying he wouldn't avoid it as scum/why do you think he would avoid it as town?

[implosion]

Alright then. Who's scum?

[implosion]

Who's my partner?

[implosion]

Because you just said it was nsg and that turned out to be wrong

[implosion]

I genuinely don't see why you have GL so high

Do you think GL vs goats d1 might have been scum theater? I think it's really unlikely given the scope, the vitriol, the way GL reacted to it, the fact that this is white flag and it looked like it was going to lead to an elimination, etc, etc.

What are your general opinions on the game right now?

[implosion]

Enchant, you didn't answer me - who do you think is scum here?

[implosion]

I've made my preferences clear; I'm somewhat indifferent between NM/Pooky.

[implosion]

Vaguely both.

[implosion]

Ostensibly where I'm at is that I think you're both scum, and I haven't seen evidence convincing me otherwise.

I can be convinced on Enchant and/or Flea but am not currently.

Calling Dwlee or GL scum would be a very hard sell to me.

[implosion]

kinda wild

if i was scum i just shove you on d1 lol

This feels like very much not the first time you defend yourself with "if i were scum i would have just done x differently" with no justification whatsoever and i'm left with no idea why i should believe this.

[implosion]

Dwlee, what's your general take on things right now?

[implosion]

What does prodding look like/mean?

[implosion]

Do you have any other feelings on anyone else given we’re down to seven alive?

[implosion]

tomorrow is when I will Do Stuff For Real and be around to engage, please hold me to this

beep.

i still look forward to your Do Stuff For Real.

[implosion]

I think as long as we can bank the game on Dwlee being town, this wins - someone tell me where I'm wrong

I mean, this post obviously gets no objections from me in that it fits the worldview i already hold very well.

[implosion]

oh shit.

[implosion]

(and thanks!)

[implosion]

VOTE: Not_Mafia

Idk if people want something out of me I'll give stuff but I'm feeling very little impetus to really think about things until I get any material reason to believe I'm wrong about anything.

[implosion]

Then let's pick Pooky.

I don't buying NM-Mafia acting like that.
Pooky is more active accuser as town.

I'm not like

confident

confident that NM will flip scum but I quite prefer it to Pooky at this point for a few reasons, not the least of which is that you repeatedly refusing to touch him for this incredibly specific and IMO unconvincing singular cited reason in a 73 page game is starting to reek of being partners.

[implosion]

And can we please like... get some votes? Dwlee, Pooky, N_M are all still not voting with less than a day to deadline. Granted I didn't realize that until Dwlee pointed it out but.

p-edit well fine whatever

[implosion]

dwlee shot is interesting, i was kind of expecting GL to die. I need to look at GL's reasons for it being not enchant/flea. I also need to look at GL but I still really doubt that I'm going to be swayed on him.

[implosion]

GL, my rough thoughts on you being alive are

1) the obvious "could he be scum" and if you are scum in theory I'd want to eliminate your partner and therefore not automatically listen to what you're saying but, I think ultimately the odds of it with your play and interplay with goats are low enough that I'm willing to just lose if it's the case.

2) It's possible scum were more afraid of dwlee being more ambiguous about their reads and/or that scum didn't want to give as much away with them.

I'm having a lot of conflicted thoughts about who I want. I think what I probably

should

do is get some amount of scum meta on Pooky. Pooky is still my gun-to-my-head vote right now.

[implosion]

VOTE: Dwlee99

I see the gimmick alt has arrived

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

This is outed actually. He was angry at bugspray being a baboon, implying anger at bugspray's stupidity or lack of reading comprehension. But then he votes bugspray on the basis that they were mafia and intentionally trying to make them look bad. Which makes them scum, not someone who lacks reading comprehension. I think Gamma is mafia who got tilted at being suspected for the wrong reasons by a townie who didn't read their post properly. Which is why he initially calls them a baboon and then switches to a fake reason to attack them after.

And this feels massively over explanatory for page 4/5...

These feel pretty not-partnery as a pair of consecutive posts and the first mention of goats, tbh.

I'm fairly good on goats rn, isn't someone I'd be willing to take into YOLO at this point but I like their style. Your focus on partner-tells is massively worrying for me. Your defence alone justifies goats accusation. Some stretches are good, and get results. Others are just outright awful. Yours on me, is one of the awful ones as you got nothing from it and honestly it looks like a defence attempt using mech as way out.

This (317) also feels pretty non-partnery. The "not someone I'd want to bring to the last day" line feels like something scum would be reluctant to say about a scumbuddy in white flag specifically. Specifically that phrasing.

Those are like, the only real notable instances of ctrl+f'ing goats for flea. There's also this which is, also like, kind of townish.

Enchant's literal only mention was asking NM to extended-quickhammer bloodhail. Which I mean, in principle that's townish but like idfk.

Pooky..... doesn't mention goats until their 144th post?? That is wild. Not even in a quote. They literally vote bloodhail on page 57 as their first acknowledgement of it as another slot in the game.

I don't know what to do with players like this. Like I genuinely don't understand how I'm supposed to conclude anything other than "that's ridiculous and scummy" from that. Like Pooky's excuse presumably is "i was sheeping" but like I just don't care, you aren't playing the gosh dang game at that point if you're town.

This exercise has reaffirmed my first guess of enchant/Pooky (though ofc I'm not even really looking closely at GL atm)

[implosion]

every time i read 210 i panic.

[implosion]

no

[implosion]

i'm still very much open to limming not-you, in particular possibly enchant if it has better team-dynamics-odds.

[implosion]

Well I think there's a solid chance both of you are town so I'd appreciate if you could reconsider since we're in limlo.

How do you square GL being scum with goats's aggressive tunnel of him on day one?

[implosion]

Alternatively do you have any reason I should vote GL other than your gut?

[implosion]

Do you think it's ench/flea right now?

[implosion]

At this particular moment I feel very non-confident in everything.

[implosion]

because they're the two people I think are individually towniest.

[implosion]

Flea is much weaker. Read is based on some gut around a couple of things they said that I maybe shouldn't give as much weight to as I am (like the semi-townslip) and the post I made above about faer posts toward goats.

GL is fairly robust. His play throughout a lot of the game has reminded me very strongly of his play in coalition, where I also correctly townread him quickly. His reaction to goats from day one, the way he was getting frustrated at them, was pretty town then and it's probably more town now with goats's flip. The aesthetic of goats and GL arguing was that goats was absolutely sold on GL being scum and didin't care about a single thing GL did or said, while GL was trying to get back into the game from being wagoned and responding to all of goats's posts and generally just being frustrated by goats's erroneous reasoning. That aesthetic I think strongly suggests GL town. 293 is a very strong reason to townread him on its own. His play has fallen off over the course of the game but, well, so has mine and everyone's and I can't really blame him. I can give more if you want.

Tbh, 1862 is kind of making me want to vote flea. I'm not sure you'd make that post if it was you/enchant and you are right, though you haven't done it recently you were out for Enchant's blood in a way I'm not sure is partnered. And I am getting some town vibes from you right now. There is one way to play this game which is that, if I can convince myself/whoever the other town is that myself and GL are town then we just need to eliminate one scumteam and vote the third. Or like, figure out which of the three of you is the best vote.

Part of my problem is that all three of you have, in my mind, just not been playing the game all that much, in different ways. Flea has been gone because of RL stuff, Enchant has basically half been an extension of NM quickhammering and half gone with the flow of the wind with no rhyme or reason to who they've been pushing, and you gave up and started sheeping two days ago and said we should eliminate you yesterday so we don't today. It's just really hard to sort through when it feels like so many players have been skirting along in different ways and not confronting the meat of the game. NM is a part of that too, though of course he's gone now.

[implosion]

I am quite curious what GL thinks of this page as well.

[implosion]

Interesting.

[implosion]

Even in minimal posting I am quite readable imo. Chaotic, yes, but there's no reason nobody here should have a null/PoE read on me imo.

What about your play do you think we should be able to read you as town based on, if your play is enough for you to be readable?

Is there a reason you aren't voting Enchant? FYPOV, the game should be lost if Enchant is town, yes?

[implosion]

I've gotta be honest, Enchant's "i tossed a coin" line is something I have a kind of hard time seeing from scum >_>

I still have many conflicting feelings.

[implosion]

I mean I guess it theoretically makes sense as a line if it's Enchant/GL but oy.

[implosion]

dang. well at least i don't feel too bad about it :\

wp.