Open 859 - C9++ - Postgame
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Hiraki Survivor
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Hiraki Survivor
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what is the purpose of this?In post 191, Gamma Emerald wrote:what is your opinion on hiraki, furtive?-
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Hiraki Survivor
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Hiraki Survivor
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it hasn't been that long jeezIn post 252, Gamma Emerald wrote:
Does Hiraki have historically good reads?In post 251, Klick wrote:Sheeping conftown onto a lim target is a severely underrated strategy and towns should do much more often than they do
People are just hesitant to vote against their own personal reads, but it's often correct to do so to achieve a fully town-influenced elimination
So yeah, I'd be down for sheeping Hiraki today as a concept.
if im being honest, D1 is usually just luck anyway but i am a pretty luckyIn post 256, Klick wrote:
Without really knowing about Hiraki's read strength, probably better than the average D1 scum elimination rate?In post 252, Gamma Emerald wrote:
Does Hiraki have historically good reads?In post 251, Klick wrote:Sheeping conftown onto a lim target is a severely underrated strategy and towns should do much more often than they do
People are just hesitant to vote against their own personal reads, but it's often correct to do so to achieve a fully town-influenced elimination
So yeah, I'd be down for sheeping Hiraki today as a concept.
i don't, i find more power in the collective group - even if it's badIn post 261, Klick wrote:We could even just give Hiraki the 'power' to veto what we all decide to do for the day and make his own decision if he wants to play around that
i don't like how this readsIn post 264, Klick wrote:Gamma's posting reads as genuine and solving-oriented
can you help me off of CSF? i didn't vote but i was pretty ready to do so tbh. don't think enchant is a bad idea
after reading, i think enchant is better than CSF. CSF just doesn't have a lot of good posts. BBT was an early game lean scum and has not improved either - it does not help that the sole vote on BBT is CSF but that is an early guess - not a read of both players.
VOTE: Enchant-
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Hiraki Survivor
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i'm not either tbh - he's not really scummy and other scummy people seem to be on him which can go either way (no pre-flip determination here)In post 321, froggodoggo wrote:
can you rephrase this part a bit? i'm not understanding your thoughts on CSF. ty!!In post 318, Hiraki wrote:can you help me off of CSF? i didn't vote but i was pretty ready to do so tbh. don't think enchant is a bad idea
after reading, i think enchant is better than CSF. CSF just doesn't have a lot of good posts. BBT was an early game lean scum and has not improved either - it does not help that the sole vote on BBT is CSF but that is an early guess - not a read of both players.
there are no day vigs in this game yet you're firing shots at meIn post 323, Gamma Emerald wrote:
I'm not being mean, I genuinely don't know because I've never seriously evaluated your read quality as townIn post 318, Hiraki wrote:it hasn't been that long jeez
i think you're town here (altho i am not good at that) and i'm confused at this flexIn post 325, Gamma Emerald wrote:A bit astonishing you think I would be despite my join date.
tyIn post 330, Lucian wrote:Enchant seems like he has zero interest of playing this game, I think that's scummy. And the IC is also voting there. So why not.
i want to flip scum, not alignmentIn post 331, froggodoggo wrote:
If enchant were to flip right now what information do we get from each alignment? (excluding wagon analysis ofc)In post 330, Lucian wrote:Enchant seems like he has zero interest of playing this game, I think that's scummy. And the IC is also voting there. So why not.
yeah this whole exchange is a little weird to me - it's a weird half-defense
agreed - i was cringing reading those 3 postsIn post 347, Lucian wrote:Extremely bad read, but the creativity of it feels genuine. So there's that I guess.
i don't agree with this but this is not a conversation for this gameIn post 366, Lucian wrote:For one, scumreads are generally more difficult to fake for scum than townreads are.-
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Hiraki Survivor
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noIn post 373, Enchant wrote:Do you have questions to me?
i said this after so i don't like how this is phrased at allIn post 409, Dunnstral wrote:Hiraki doesn't seem like they want to dictate things, though, they seem like they want the day to play out normally.-
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Hiraki Survivor
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it's not good phrasing. i understand what you're saying but i don't like the point of view it impliesIn post 424, Dunnstral wrote:I take the above back, you did say that in 318. Not sure what you think is wrong with my post.-
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Hiraki Survivor
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Hiraki Survivor
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Hiraki Survivor
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This is exactly my basis.In post 514, Lucian wrote:It's just that I feel like he'd be capable of storing more enthusiasm as Town.
He just did a ton on Page 21??????In post 522, froggodoggo wrote:I nominate BBT to be pressured. I think they have gotten away doing not a whole lot this game and I wanna make em play.
But I am not everyone so yall do ur own thing
I don't think furtive flips scum but I have a lot more equity now that froggo will. Starting to get more TvT vibes from furtive v BBT and it seems much more likelier that froggo is scum in that instance.
The problem I have with this BBT case is that the basis is that BBT doesn't want to talk about two players. What is the issue with that? Being sketchy isn't scummy. He's just focused in different areas.
We should revisit this tomorrow.In post 584, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:No, I genuinely scum read them but their response to me felt super towny. It just flipped my read almost on the spot. I wanted to leave it open to see if anyone would try and continue my push on Frog before I gave my opinion but they didn't.
I would like to re-read Aisa, Mala, and Dunn. These are the three slots I don't have solid opinions on at this point that I think I should.-
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Hiraki Survivor
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Not even that - it causes a massive amount of WIFOM from all angles. If you think about the scenarios here, this is probably the best scum play and the worst case scenario for town.In post 798, Klick wrote:Ppl going 'Doctor, no lim' without actually considering the town utility of a scummy doctor claim with no other PRs claimed and no obvious night kill
It's close to useless at the moment if true and will probably lead to us just still having Enchant on the table as an option around D4.
For scum, if town claims doc and doesn't die tonight or even if they're roleblocked, town's claim comes into question again. As scum in the same scenario, you practically play the same way. I am really trying to think of the utility that Enchant has at this point and it's near zero.
Enchant noting this is not townpoints btw.
If Enchant flips red, go for Froggo next. If not, still highly consider Froggo.-
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Hiraki Survivor
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I think this is completely false but it's a difference of opinion. I've used this same logic as scum before.In post 827, Lucian wrote:
Quickhammering Enchant once he claimed Doctor, if he flipped Doctor, would have been a little bit scummy. The fact that froggo said something that made him draw heat, and now is like "I wish I did a scummy thing so that I wouldn't get heat" is superficially a very bad look (because scum really doesn't want heat on them), but I think it's actually something Town thinks too, and Town is more likely to actually write it out.In post 825, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:
Why would hammering Enchant have been scummy?In post 821, Lucian wrote:Hot take, scum doesn't usually say "goddamn, I wish I had done this scummy thing when I had the chance". I'm guessing froggo is Town.
I still think the connections between Enchant and Froggo are pretty obvious if Enchant flips red. I also don't think a lot of Froggo's analysis is genuine.In post 846, furtiveglance wrote:Froggo is my lowkey SK read, they're scummy but not really paired with anyone because everyone susses them.
I would look in Aisa/Dunn. The people saying that Enchant doesn't give us information are absolutely correct. I really only see the Froggo connection. Froggoscum equity goes down majorly if Enchant is town. However, even after at E-1, the slot:In post 859, Gamma Emerald wrote:who fills the gap if Encanto is town?
- Hasn't done anything significant - regardless of pressure (claiming is not significant here since it's basically procedure at E-1)
- Is now claiming a PR that could go either way in terms of the claim
- Claims that this is nothing outside of standard play when people have clearly gone back and shown that it is (including myself in my own personal look)
So I don't really want to entertain the idea that the slot will flip green because that would be a waste of time.-
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Hiraki Survivor
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Hiraki Survivor
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It's not a vibe, it's my opinion.In post 863, froggodoggo wrote:
is this anything I can refute or just a vibe you get from me?In post 861, Hiraki wrote:I also don't think a lot of Froggo's analysis is genuine.-
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Hiraki Survivor
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I read this as kind of lackluster fake distancing tbh.In post 871, Lucian wrote:I vaguely dislike Dunn complaining about Aisa's memes on page 27, and this is moreso a note to myself that I need too re-evalue Dunn tomorrow.-
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Hiraki Survivor
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how???????????????????????????In post 877, Lucian wrote:If Enchant is scum, I have a hard time seeing this as a partner. If scum saw their buddy who'd just claimed Doctor get additional heat and get their claimed disbelieved, I don't think they post a post like this one.-
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Hiraki Survivor
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Oops - missed this. The former.In post 878, Lucian wrote:
Dunn/Aisa distancing or Lucian/Dunn distancing?In post 876, Hiraki wrote:
I read this as kind of lackluster fake distancing tbh.In post 871, Lucian wrote:I vaguely dislike Dunn complaining about Aisa's memes on page 27, and this is moreso a note to myself that I need too re-evalue Dunn tomorrow.-
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Hiraki
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Hiraki Survivor
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Hiraki Survivor
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Not sure if I'm following what you're putting down.In post 1059, Gamma Emerald wrote:I don’t feel like this table would provoke him to try to look town early so I feel good about my initial TR there
It is a thing but it's a very dumb thing, agreed.In post 1067, furtiveglance wrote:
New term: Intent to E-1.In post 1062, froggodoggo wrote:
True but I had intent to put Enchant at E-1 until furtive beat me to itIn post 1051, Lucian wrote:I do think my Townread on froggo did go down quite a bit. The "damn I should've hammered!" read I had yesterday is probably not that Townie, considering Enchant did flip scum.
froggo also fits in the group of players that didn't vote Enchant up to claim, but did vote him after the claim.
That's not a thing LMFAO
Please tell me this slot has been run up now.In post 1073, froggodoggo wrote:Someone vote this guy off with me. I made all these posts with valuable information and they pinpoint one little thing and try to make me look bad because of it. No thoughts on anything else I've just put out??
Pedit don't remember exactly but I would imagine I wanted Enchant to start playing the game already and wanted to give them 6 hours to change my mind. I think I felt bad for em
I think this slot is the reason why Mala is killed btw.
I don't think this slot is too good anymore. Can you guide me in the right direction? I don't think a lurker elim is great for today but I've seen worse.In post 1078, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:Infinity is today's elim. Don't let them out of the spotlight by creating a distraction.
nvm no shot of me trying for this slot todayIn post 1086, froggodoggo wrote:Infinity
I agree with this.In post 1107, Infinity 324 wrote:
i explained this already right? doc claim was obviously awful and needed to be resolved at some point, and massclaim doesn't necessarily help. like if there's no other doc claim do we leave enchant alive?In post 1005, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:Explanation for this read progression on Enchant would be good
I need to re-read this if true and would be willing to change my vote, begrudgingly, if so.In post 1149, Dunnstral wrote:
I agree with this sentimentIn post 1147, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:
A doctor also claims doctor 100% of the time in that scenario, too.In post 1130, Infinity 324 wrote:scum claims pr there 100% of the time, and doctor claim is one of the safest since there's no info you have to report and be held accountable for
I'm struggling to understand your 'Enchant is 100% scum because they claimed Doc' after not being interested in elimming them at all.
i think my thoughts for today are very clearIn post 1174, Gamma Emerald wrote:In terms of what I wanna see, Hiraki’s thoughts is a leading thought, I’d also like some more thought from Dunn as he actually feels rather reactive currently, and Aisa I don’t feel like has been v present today.
you are not and I hope I do not try hard after thisIn post 1195, Aisa wrote:Is it possible I’m just misreading froggo here? Oh totally but it’s the best I have at this very point in time
I've seen it more often than not that scum will do this to try and look genuine without the PT.In post 1196, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:Is this really a s/s interaction? I feel like something along these lines would be much more likely to go into a PT if genuine?
Oh you're SO CLOSE here BBT. Who was the KILL tonight?In post 1196, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:This is poor reaosning for avoiding the Enchant wagon.
Mala had LITERALLY nothing. It's a literal nothing slot. Nothing happened, nothing said, NOTHING. And that's the kill? Okay - where do we go from there?
I'm not dead which means that I'm supposed to think "huh, I'm alive because scum thinks I'm going to cause more errors" - which is pretty illogical for a few reasons.
1) I already got the first scum. Even if I start screwing up (possible), town already has a huge lead right now. Even with an SK, we have a few miselims (not calculating) and a lot of time to screw it up.
2) I don't WIFOM. I really don't like to rethink my logic unless I have a bad feeling about it and I really don't right now. Froggo has been doing this weird stuff solely with furtive and Enchant. Enchant was more of a "let me into your thoughts" situation while furtive is a hostile environment with very little to no thought of changing. It's classic scumplay here. I would even go to the point that when froggo flips red, furtive should be honorary IC - but I won't go that far.-
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Hiraki Survivor
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yes????????????????????????In post 1218, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:They both sat on my wagon pretty much all of D1. Do you think both scum co-ordinate and sit together like that?-
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i agree but i don't think many of his posts are badIn post 1235, Infinity 324 wrote:we can iso furtive again but i don't think the casual-ness to how he's been approaching the game isthatmuch of a towntell
corny, yes. bad - not really-
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Hiraki Survivor
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Hiraki Survivor
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Hiraki Survivor
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No - I don't think that is what Dunn is saying.In post 1299, furtiveglance wrote:I see the argument, but if I knew there was a Doctor in the setup I'm not sure I'd out myself as 1-shot Doc just to back Enchant's claim.
Correct - and I'd like to delve into this a little more.In post 1301, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:Yeah but if he is 1-Shot he would KNOW that there was a Doc in the game and he didn't seem to show this on Enchant's claim (If I'm understanding set up correctly)
This is the progression that makesIn post 743, froggodoggo wrote:Hi hello why are we killing the doc claim. I would like to have a doctor around tyvm!!zerosense in context. If Froggo kept this up, fine but within 10 minutes (as I think Lucian noted - not going to check)
The next question isIn post 747, froggodoggo wrote:I would like to hammer rn very badly for funsies!! I will again wait, this time 5 hours. Unless 3 players give me permission to do the deed!!why?!?!?This is someone who Froggo should think is a hair townier than everyone else, hasn't suspected for the ENTIRE day (coincidentally) but Froggo's now willing to play by town's rules rather than follow his own leads? It seems like simpy scumplay to gain towncred to me.-
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Full disclosure - I'm really not good at setups but would it make sense to fullclaim now? Doctor would obviously remain hidden since we know there has to be a doctor but everyone else might help for utility purposes? The only way this hurts is that it confirms to scum if there is an SK (although there does not seem to be one).
The reason I'm thinking this is assuming that Klick is not lying, our letters are currently MVDD XXX (X meaning unknown rather than porn tyvm)
It can't be TTT on the current circumstances unless doctor was successful night 1 and mafia decided to no kill tonight. Both of these seem pretty unlikely to me but again - not great at this stuff. In all cases, the current setup should be that the cop is currently useless because all last 3 X's have godfathers in them assuming we are not in MVDDTTT.
If we're in MVDDXTT, massclaim doesn't really harm anyone because it's pretty much known already since we got rid of the roleblocker & the nilla. Only godfather remains which means that the X is useless.
If we're in MVDDXXX, massclaim now helps town because it assembles more clears. Again - a lot of this relies on not having an SK in the setup which I think we should think about first. I would also like people to poke holes into the above because again - not great at this stuff.
DDDD in any case seems pretty unlikely to me since there's been so many kills but if we are in that setup and we do fullclaim all doctors, it's an auto-town win. So I'm really failing to see the downfall of massclaiming here.-
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Hiraki Survivor
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Hiraki Survivor
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Hiraki Survivor
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Hiraki Survivor
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Hiraki Survivor
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The only thing that makes me really question this is that SK!Klick might just be doing this as a gambit since the old fashioned way would probably produce the same result (esp with 2 scum slots left) but that would mean that there's quite a wacky night phase of actions for N1 and N2. It's a bet on my part but I've bet more on worse odds.-
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Hiraki Survivor
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Hiraki Survivor
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Hiraki
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Hiraki Survivor
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Hiraki Survivor
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Hiraki Survivor
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Hiraki Survivor
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Hiraki Survivor
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Hiraki Survivor
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Doesn't that also make the SK and mafia pool very obvious and limits their choices?In post 1643, Cat Scratch Fever wrote:
Doctors only stop 1 kill, are you accounting for that? There's no incentive for Mafia to shoot in elim pool when they and sk can just force any kill through.In post 1566, Klick wrote:If we don't hit SK, Mafia has to shoot in our elim pool for the SK, and SK has to either shoot between the doctor and scum, or risk their kill not going through on conftown.
The kill target is just going to be whoever Aisa is supposed to heal.-
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Hiraki Survivor
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???????????????????????????????????????In post 1652, Cat Scratch Fever wrote:It does limit their choices, but this plan isn't very effective at protecting conf towns, which is what it's being billed as-
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Hiraki Survivor
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They already said that they're not revealing who they protect - which is the correct action. So either town gets another mis-elim and mafia/SK gambles on an already losing hand (both factions down to one on Day 3) or mafia/SK doesn't do that and has to shoot doctors. They could even shoot one doctor (assuming both are real) by way of not knowing which one will hit which one and then the other becomes very obvious in D5 because they're not dead.
Klick & I are not the important confirmed townies right now.-
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Hiraki Survivor
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No - not really. If both doctors die tonight, that would be a success.In post 1657, Cat Scratch Fever wrote:Oh i see we're trying to protect the doctor. All right i think i get it although I'm not particularly convinced but with 18 hours left, time is probably better spent arguing about other things-
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This is partially why I think Gamma is best for today.In post 1664, Infinity 324 wrote:the thing is that's literally how gamma plays as town-
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Hiraki
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Hiraki Survivor
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Hiraki Survivor
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I'd like to presume we have two doctors. The anomaly here should be if either myself or Klick dies or if there are multiple deaths.In post 1678, Aisa wrote:I don't mind changing to 50/50 protecting Hiraki and Klick in any eventuality if that seems better.-
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