Open 870 | White Flag Mountainous | Postgame

[Gimli]

Hi I'm in this game so just checking in. I'm sure we can turn this ship around and win

I'm v/la and will de phoneposting for the next week or so

[Gimli]

Honestly this strongarm'ing playstyle isn't bringing me good results as town and it emotionally really messes with me.

Haven't read much but I think this is nearly always genuine and not some kind of theatre just to get townread.

[Gimli]

my lean town on lucian is independent of other reads and is based on his own play. i think this is a game where he would be more likely to struggle to really sink his teeth into it (which imo it felt like that was the case) as town than he would as scum

he also has been complaining about being so tired of being scum with potatoes and shirou may be many things but a potato he is not

so i kinda think lucian's lack of engagement and motivation is slightly antiassociative with shirou who is more than willing to do the heavy lifting that lucian is tired of doing

Hi fire! So good to play with you again.

Are you maintaining this shirou scumread of yours through his more recent posting? Is your Lucian (now me) townread based off lack of associatives with shirou? What if shirou is town? Also, what if disinterest with playing as scum has more layers than just playing with potatoes?

I haven't followed much but you've replaced in for Ari, is that right? Navigating the thread on phone is a nightmare. So those reads you had as expectator?

[Gimli]

VOTE: TGP

Aside from the hammer, I also think TGP is scummy for pushing Shirou for policy reasons but trying to not make it seem like a policy push (1076 says shirou's metapush is scummy but he also needs to be fearlimmed)

Then his transition to a Shirou townread in 1328 feels too sudden and unnatural. If you look at TGP's ISO, he has alternated between scumreading Shirou and being uncertain about him ever since page 22 (614 - votes Shirou). The quoted Shirou post that gives him a change of heart doesn't even feel that AI to me -

Spoiler:

I haven't that much experience on Lucian/Una so I feel scummy vibes but not "never wrong"/"almost never wrong" confidence

If you do feel that I can vote Una

i'm insanely skeptical that you can even hit that level of confidence on d1 reliably ever

...but god, you're just town aren't you Shirou

UNVOTE:

i maintain that i should vote you if i don't reasonably strongly townread you but right now even trying to discount hard for the fact that activity makes you seem more towny you seem actually trying to solve the game

Also 865 feels like it was edited after the fact to add a respond to Aristeia's 653 (the quoted posts are out of order)

Quoting this for myself to read more appropriately when I have context for these posts, but I find the "goddamit you're town aren't you" (I'm paraphrasing) organic and in context with being annoyed at shirou for shirou things

[Gimli]

Cat scratch, what do you think of Aubrey? Same question to fire

[Gimli]

i think that almost everything shirou has done this game (including and especially the norwee fakeout thing) aligns closer to furthering what his goals would be as mafia and not what they would be as town

Can you or someone point to what the Norwee fakeout thing was?

[Gimli]

Gamma just seems like a zero info kill. So scum must be happy enough with the game state to some degree I guess.

I think this thought from Aubrey is towny right after they say they want to flip Ari, cause it points to a paranoia that flipping the counterwagon is gonna hit another towny

Can't post more for a while hopefully I can read a little bit today

[Gimli]

@std what's the case against Aubrey that you're voting there?

[Gimli]

@fire I think that's another hard for scum to make, pending if shirou is completely brazen as scum and knows how to manipulate what people expect of him to where his most annoying traits at town are, like the need to be recognized for a correct read, and also reversely tunneling and then feeling bad about it the next day etc

[Gimli]

I am behind and on mobile

Aubrey do you have any town games I could look at?

Hello I'm on mobile too, it really sucks

[Gimli]

I'm reading TGP's ISO (thinking it's decent so far, seems to have correct takes and is actively hunting both for town and mafia). And I stumbled upon this:

Pina we are voting Norwe, and then the moderator is gonna come, and then lock the thread, and then post final VC, give us a very likely red flip, and then god knows what waits us for Day 2.

I don't want to make this more dramatic than it needs to be. I don't want to make this more toxic than it needs to be.

I just want to eliminate what to me is almost confirmed scum from how much I know about him. Can you help me

please

?

I'm likely gonna get this wagon it's just a question of if it's gonna be nice or nasty.

Which tgp followed with this glorious read

i guess my final take here is VOTE: Shirou. The general thought process here is that when you tunnel someone day 1 in this setup you are not much more likely than 3/13 to be right, and suggesting "lim me afterwards if I'm wrong" in my limited experience never actually happens (like, you are at very low risk to be powerlimmed the day after). Tunneling someone off secret meta is a very great way for scum to get a lim on a townie and then later get townread for it, putting nothing on the line for it. Like it's not like your reputation of successfully reading norwee scum is on the line if you're scum, which means I should update towards being suspicious that you're like "lim me even though I'm town if norwee flips town even though I'm scum"

I'm townreading golden paradox for their push on shirou (which was imo organic inside that very same post with a previous push that led to this one and the vote).

Also I find it unlikely that they're scumming with shirou.

But then there's something else. Considering that shirou managed to death tunnel a different slot that same GameDay, pending on norwee's alignment it can make shirou's D1 actually feel like scum powerwolfing.

Is that the norwee's take out post you were talking about, fire?

[Gimli]

Also in context with tgp's later townread on shirou I think it's not a slot we should be flipping today

Mafia is hard

[Gimli]

std town

Why is that?

[Gimli]

Norwee and shirou: what's your read on each other now?

[Gimli]

continue reading imo

I'm trying but my vacation is getting in the way of my mafia

Is there any specific part of D1 you think helps with gamesolving?

[Gimli]

Tgp is probably town for that.

Agreed with this sentiment

[Gimli]

679 is significant

Ugh

Anyway I'm back later

[Gimli]

Why are you asking about him?

I thought his reading far into the NK weird when I asked that, but it makes sense if he is using it to assess fire's slot cause the counterwagon being town would mean comfortable scum. I asked you and fire to get a sense of what people are thinking of the slot.

[Gimli]

Hmm i like Fire's thoughts but i'm not sure if that's to the level where i should townread i

I mindmeld with this

One thing about fire is that reads they made while spectating are rolling over to the thread so it's hard to make a proper assessment for a while I think

[Gimli]

Aubrey, Cat Scratch Fever, fireisredsir, Gimli, giuseppina, Klick, NorwegianboyEE, Save the Dragons, Shirou, TheGoldenParadox, Toto

Copying the playerlist for reference

Aubrey is town, and I think fire is probably town if they maintain this level of solvyness throughout the gameday.

I think shirou is playing one hell of a game if he is scum, and apparently he is good enough to do so, but I trust that the specific towny emotions he showed here mean he is town. But I like fire more and Aubrey more.

TGP is barely posting, I liked his D1 progression on shirou, but there isn't much more than that. I feel it's town too but without much evidence.

Then there's a POE consisting of everyone else. Not much in the way of a solve but it's where I wanna flip people today, meaning I dislike the potential wagons people want.

What do we think of Giuseppina? It writes big posts, but are they towny? I've read a lot of her but I had no reason to townread her yet, which might mean she is scum.

Norwee I'm kinda trusting shirou that Norwee is town, but it's not my read I'm just sheeping

I'm readless on everyone else

So ok that's a bad list isn't it, but it's what I got so far

[Gimli]

i think giuseppina is very towny and would strongly oppose pushes in that direction

Okay

Other than tgp and shirou, who would you kill?

[Gimli]

I'm waiting for something but it's not here yet so forgive me but I don't want to drop certain thoughts I've yet

Speaking of secret thoughts, have you told us of your secret scumread from day one, or was that conversation derailed?

[Gimli]

spicy

What's that about?

[Gimli]

Someone asked what my read on Shirou is. I don’t really see anything Shirou did pinging very much as scummy.
I think one interesting theory is if Shirou specifically did that huge "Norwee is scum… just kidding!" performance just in order to pocket me. But i’m not sure if i’m deep enough in paranoia to consider that yet.

Im the one who asked. I'm 100% sure shirou wasn't joking fwiw, even if he says so. He is either scum who tried a thing and didn't go as planned, or town who changed his mind and didn't wanna say it cause of massive ego (nothing personal just how I read the player). Did he say he was joking with the scumread?

[Gimli]

you're really wrong I really town read Norwee from the start but I can see how you see me as having more ego than I actually do

You put your locktown on L-2 as a play, that's even more ego than I'm saying you have

[Gimli]

Okay.

[Gimli]

Of course you're being scumread by half the game if you're lying

[Gimli]

i def disagree with that. it's possible he changed his mind and pivoted but it seemed more likely to be planned to me

Why would he do that as scum?

[Gimli]

I don't understand how you believe he did a play for reactions to get reads or whatever, but still think he is playing scum? Does shirou have infinite range as scum that he just does shit like this? That's @fire

[Gimli]

Wow, I kinda feel like I'm getting the treatment a certain player did back then except I'm not good like him

I mean I have nothing against you and I'll take an effort player over a potato any day regardless, but you made D1 long chaotic and hard to read, and then you flipped town with a death tunnel. I'm still making sense of it all but I guess you're just town doing shirou things

[Gimli]

So shirou/Norwee both town
Agree with fire's read on Giuseppina and I think her back and forth with shirou was very towny indeed.
Aubrey town also.
Who else can we put in a towncore? Fire itself?

[Gimli]

You were using very large letters to get una eliminated

[Gimli]

But anyway enough about this. I don't know who you're actually scumreading now. Is it paradox? Who else?
@shiro

@toto: I came to this game believing in shirou's emotions wrt the D1 elimination, and only had second thoughts when I started to read back and see his death tunneling Norwee, thought it was forced and scummy and came up with this idea that he could be powerwolfing the game to oblivion.

However, the Norwee scumread wasn't real which is why it read as fake. So I have no reason to scumread shirou, and think his behaviour is towny and trust his Norwee relax.

[Gimli]

*Read, not relax. Stupid phoneposting.

And yeah, why would he do that as mafia? It's too crazy and I have no reason to suspect him

[Gimli]

I'm sorry Aubrey dear.

Who are we killing?

[Gimli]

why would he do that as mafia?

It's too crazy and I have no reason to suspect him

My read on shirou would be the same without all the norwee stuff, it's just further evidence that's a towny playing and not a scum

[Gimli]

I don't understand how you believe he did a play for reactions to get reads or whatever, but still think he is playing scum? Does shirou have infinite range as scum that he just does shit like this? That's @fire

i don't think it requires infinite range, i think it's a really easy thing to fake because it doesn't require any nuance or solving or anything that is difficult for scum to fake. i think most people wouldn't go for that play as scum but most people wouldn't do it as town either. shirou is big on putting on a show and having all attention on him, and i think that goes for both alignments

i think if he's town then he did it for a reaction test. i think if he's scum he did it to get townread and to establish himself in a leader position. personally i think it did a better job of accomplishing what his goals would be as scum than it did at accomplishing what his goals would be as town.

Makes sense welcome to townbloc (shirou is in it too if you don't mind)

[Gimli]

That post is meant to be a little sarcastic but mostly tongue in cheek parody.

It might be a little less gritty than I normally post though I'll give you that

But you're still shit posting every hour right?

[Gimli]

ISOing klick to figure out if I feel good or not about shirou's scumread, came across some goodlooking posts, liked how their early townread on Giuseppina vibed and then I think this post is pretty towny:

I saw your readslist, I thought it was overall odd. I kept reading, I thought pina's posts weren't *that* bad and that I could understand if someone was townreading her. I don't know which posts specifically did it, it probably wasn't any specific post; I could go back and pick some posts but this feels like a waste of time and I am highly skeptical this is something that is like, actually thought to be AI by anyone.

I'm mostly frustrated that when I asked you this initially your response was 'sure I can answer that, but can you answer this first?' and now I've done that and you still haven't given a proper answer
But I'll drop it for now

Do you have higher expectations of Ari? (Also @pina, I did not assume so because I don't recall Klick and Ari playing together.) Or has everyone else done something that you would consider something that scum wouldn't do?

These are not the only two options
I don't have

higher expectations

of Ari particularly as a player outside of the context of this game
I DO feel like Ari has posted a lot more of actual meaningful substance than most players thus far
I'm used to getting townreads out of that kind of content
But I'm not getting that with Ari and I think that could potentially be a sign that she's scum

Put another way, it reminds me of Dunnstral in the C9++ game we were both in. Dunnstral kept posting content and I enjoyed the content but it never looked towny.

Why am I scum?

Same reason as Ari basically
You're both in the 'interestingly not town' section of my readslist

I find the "posting a lot but nothing is towny" bit very clever even if in Lucian (and probably in Ari's) case it's barking at the wrong tree. It's not amounting to much and could be fake scum reasoning but yeah

[Gimli]

What do you guys think of sircakez's D1 and CSF now?

[Gimli]

The gamma kill makes sense in a world where tgp is scum if I skimmed it right

[Gimli]

I mean I'm just joining the conversation

Otoh I feel more inclined to go paradox today given how many slots are townier

[Gimli]

What do you guys think of sircakez's D1 and CSF now?

what do you think of the slot

I don't think anything yet, and you just answered a question with another question

[Gimli]

But Aubrey also wants to vote Aristeia/fireisred (he reiterates this wish in 1544), who was the major counterwagon to Una. If there is significant paranoia about flipping the CW, I'm not seeing it. Does that change your read there?

I see you have Aubrey as one of your top towns in 1562. Did you have another reason for townreading him?

Aubrey is coming to D2 with an Ari scumread. They then proceed to a mental investigation over the NK - something I don't think is a good scumhunting tool but doesn't matter - and conclude that it's possible it means scum was comfortable with D1. I think they used the word 'laxing' or something to that effect. At the same time Aubrey is shifting attention to TGP in those posts, so the NK evaluation is broadening their scumhunting spectrum or whatever. It doesn't matter if they're still scum leaning on Ari, I'd find it odd if they didn't do that just because gamma was killed.

And I'm just vibing with Aubrey otherwise. Like their presence and how they think, feels like town doing so

[Gimli]

I mean TGP is probably biting it today. Let’s get real. A slot like him, unless able to obvi town some how will die in this environment due to the rate of content alone.

I don’t see maf risking their necks for him to much and will likely try and get townie points for his demise if he is in fact scum. If town then he is just fodder.

Why are you scumreading TGP? Is it just the lack of presence?

[Gimli]

Idk if TGP's posts now are towny or just crafted to look that way

[Gimli]

Will try to read a bit more later

[Gimli]

Kinda like the way CSF is sussing me, feels like town

[Gimli]

I'm townreading all the scum ain't I

[Gimli]

toto is town, probably—i'm happy to include them in my townbloc. they are wrong about me and i think shirou but not in directions where i would be like "hey, yes, this is very Convenient for you, this Benefits you." they're pushing against two townies. also 1596 is plausibly not out of scumtoto's range but they get townpoints for them

Can you expand on your toto townread? I'm not sure I follow this. How is it not convenient for scum if they're pushing against townies?

[Gimli]

gimli / lucian slot is lean town, don't have strong takes here but a) unlike shirou i think it is much easier for scum to SR me / go with the flow then stick their necks out or wtv and be like "you guys are town

Who's townreading you, me or Lucian before me? Is that the only reason you're townreading my slot?

Wrt my townread on you, it's waiting fast. I don't like your reads post and I think you're writing this to appear towny instead of being town. Don't see the solvyness in it

[Gimli]

*waining fast

Phoneposting sucks

AlsoVOTE: TGP

The more I look at these reads the more I feel it doesn't come from town

[Gimli]

My Poe is going to slots like CSF

[Gimli]

I'm townreading CSF for their push on me but yes if I'm scum I'm openly asking people for reads to see who I can eliminate

[Gimli]

What do you think of paradox' latest reads list?

[Gimli]

Agreed with both stances, norwee

[Gimli]

I don't mean to start defending myself, I think I probably make sense in people's POEs so far, but wrt asking questions and changing my stances it's fair to note I only started reading this game yesterday and need people's inputs to start making sense of it

[Gimli]

What do you think of paradox' latest reads list?

I think his lack of read on me is a little weird

Would have to look at it again to answer this better

His reads list had I think 6 or 7 players, so a bunch of slots are missing. You think he was supposed to be reading you particularly, then? I don't remember any interaction you both had in the thread.

You're in my POE as well cause I'm not seeing anything towny in your posts and answers like this feel too apathetic but maybe the apathy can come from town so, idk.

I find the lack of posts today quite annoying. Where's everybody? Maybe scum is chilling in the back, letting us each other up

[Gimli]

@shirou would love that rundown toto asked on why norwee is town this game

[Gimli]

Maybe it's std

[Gimli]

Not townreading fire should be a crime but ok

[Gimli]

My slot was the only slot he didn't give a read on.

Funny I'm literally replying at someone that complained they didn't have a read from tgp and you're joining the convo to say this

[Gimli]

Not townreading fire should be a crime but ok

Why is he unassailable town?

It's fire, it reads and feels like fire should, this is no longer a slot that's tainted vy

[Gimli]

*by having spectated the game, I really feel like it's town fire here

[Gimli]

And that you don't notice it feels odd to me, cat

Pedit: I'm townreading it rather strongly, furtive. I'm also very positive you're town here

[Gimli]

I'm sad Aubrey left but glad that you're here

[Gimli]

Currently I think you/fire/shirou/Giuseppina are always town

Not too sure on anyone else but I'm sheeping shirou on norwee

[Gimli]

Ive been townreading most of what Aubrey posted in real time throughout D2, I'm also townreading how you're replacing in so there's that

[Gimli]

Take it slow shirou, you've been working too hard

[Gimli]

We got this I think

[Gimli]

Currently I think you/fire/shirou/Giuseppina are always town

Not too sure on anyone else but I'm sheeping shirou on norwee

@norwee anyone not in this has scum team equity, all we gotta do is clear like two slots and we got this

[Gimli]

I wanna be sure you're town so there's that little homework to do

[Gimli]

Gimly not in that list

Neither is toto

[Gimli]

You're a bad list

[Gimli]

It's a bad list cause no gimly then I agree but you know, have to remain humble

[Gimli]

Also anyone strong townreading me I'll probably suspect so don't

[Gimli]

Have you seen scum fire?

No

I was rly drunk a few hours ago so my leans became quite exaggerated. I am townreading what fire posts since the start of the gameday but granted I don't know his scum range and it's too early to assume their spectator thoughts aren't what's still making him feel town.

[Gimli]

Hi

[Gimli]

UNVOTE:
furtive's posting is good so far and I want more

giuseppina
Shirou
Save The Dragons
Cat Scratch Fever

NorwegianboyEE

TheGoldenParadox
furtiveglance
Gimli

Toto
fireisredsir

is approximately where I'm at right now

Can you expand on your std townread?

[Gimli]

oh lol last i checked the thread i remember gimli believed me

I explained that I didn't like your reads list, it looked too superficial and felt made to look townie instead of being town, and tbh everyone is towny to some extent and wolves have to be somewhere so I voted you. It's in the thread.

I have no good grasp of this game so I could be barking at the wrong tree

[Gimli]

Tbh i wouldn't even mind being a wagon, maybe it'll motivate me to solve.

if you are town and the wagon does not motivate you to solve then what

Lmao

[Gimli]

VOTE: gimli

For some reason i thought Gimli was Aristeia slot, but it's actually Lucian.
Hmm, i think that could be interesting.
VOTE: Gimli

How potato of you to still not know this

[Gimli]

Actually my boredom might be because there's not a whole lot of voting. Just talking.

You didn't even know who the slots were until last page so it's probably more than just people not voting

[Gimli]

I never said norwee was scum

[Gimli]

Potato means potato, if I thought it was scummy I'd say scummy

[Gimli]

You changed your attitude right quick huh. I just wanted to see what would happen and it's curious.

What was my attitude before and what is my attitude now?

[Gimli]

Actually my boredom might be because there's not a whole lot of voting. Just talking.

You didn't even know who the slots were until last page so it's probably more than just people not voting

Like what did you mean by this.

You're lazy

[Gimli]

Fruit vengeance is funny
STD calls him furitive by mistake, also funny
Don't see how his work is being wolf read here, toto. I think his work since replacing in is the towniest out of all slots that did that and he is replacing for Aubrey who's been very towny as well throughout d2

[Gimli]

I'm seeing Gimli bussing TGP. Is that insane

I'm confused by this comment when what you quoted in spoilers have nothing to do with TGP

[Gimli]

I meant my posts not tgps

[Gimli]

I meant my posts not tgps

Yeah I haven't read associatives at all

My read on you is more based on Lucian if that helps, but you do fit (as in you're not towny enough to overrule it)

But why did you quote that post of mine if it had nothing to do with anything then?

I'm just trying to make sense of it is all, don't think it's suspicious

[Gimli]

(i don't think scum is leading my wagon, and people who scumread me later on are more likely to be scum)

Who is scum on you?

Who are you gonna vote?

You should probably address fire and TGP though mate

[Gimli]

How are you saying 1) we should sheep klick and 2) we should kill tgp when klick is the only person in this game apparently townreading TGP? Why are you talking about sheeping klick anyway? So you know what sheeping means?

[Gimli]

I liked the song

The world is full of abandoned meanings, misunderstood gestures, etc

[Gimli]

i like the song

Locktown

[Gimli]

We're all outed potatoes tbh

[Gimli]

2/2 townies

Tho maybe TGP is also town, I've no confidence this is flipping red

[Gimli]

I think furtive is unlikely to be scum with how he's been so far

That's the best take of these pages

Shirou and norwee are both less likeky to be town than furtive/Giuseppina/fire. Shirou went from annoying thread captain to "this game exists okay", norwee is doing the same thing. They're both still probably town but Im only townreading norwee on the back of shirou's meta, so it's the weakest part of the towncore. Hopefully j get to clear one of (std, toto, klick) and get a POE solve without this pair.

[Gimli]

Shiki have i never played against town!you before. Cus that might explain why you’re so shockingly town for the first time i seen it.

Not only norwee's posts the entire GameDay have been really bad with zero solves and all potatoes, but then there's things like calling Giuseppina town excessively, which is the easiest take possible, and then scumclaiming while you do it. Doesn't feel too great.

[Gimli]

I'm liking CSF

[Gimli]

TGP's read on Shirou feels genuine to me.

TGP's progression on shirou is also the thing that made me townread him when I replaced in. His posts today are bad, though.

[Gimli]

Captain, TGP was the only vote I made this game and I didn't unvote

[Gimli]

Was rereading TGP's big reads post and it's still the scummiest takes of D2. 1727, for reference. Was townreading him before that, but I was kind of town and nulltown on everybody.

[Gimli]

You seem too eager to close the thread, furtive. You just replaced in and I think, even though I agree we should flip TGP today, talk. Shirou hasn't tried solving yet and I didn't read the majority of D1 (cause I'm traveling and don't have a PC around me, this has all been phoneposting since I replaced in).

[Gimli]

*I think we should talk

[Gimli]

Aubrey was the towniest thing on D2 imo, you come in fires blazing, there are many hints of town in many of your posts and quite frankly I'm not sure you have a scum range where you replace in on D2 of a game like this and start to hard captain an elimination. Didn't play with scum you yet to be sure but I'm guessing your natural posting, presence and firey attitude don't come from scum

[Gimli]

Klick you could be right, but there's more to TGP than the shirou progression. I disagree with CSF in this particular stance, but there's a bigger picture where TGP has been lacklustre and struggling to post anything sensible this gameday. Can't say much about D1 as I wasn't here and just read his ISO.

@klick: can you read 1727 and tell me what you think of those TGP reads? Does that read like town to you?

[Gimli]

What's my read on you at the moment?

You're asking cause you're townreading me but you can't be confident

[Gimli]

Fireisred is townreading Lucian and from what I understood they know him better than you do (I think)

It doesn't matter now, we'll probably get lots of thread time for you to read me correctly

[Gimli]

*Aubrey*

[Gimli]

i'm the thread captain full stop

Furtive is captain, you're just part of the crew and pray you're right about norwee being town, sailor

[Gimli]

i've town read you everytime you were town

I was eventually universally townread everytime you townread me, + you barely played D2 and we're not interacting enough

[Gimli]

I think you could get there but IDK. As long as we work through similar POE's the game is very winnable without my posting clearing me, I think

[Gimli]

*Aubrey*

it's still not engraved in my mind who replaced who because this game has a lot of replacements

i'm not sure other people have completely engraved it either

so i'm using the most known person in that slot rather than the new one

Furtive has a very impactful D2 so far

[Gimli]

I mean I think you can take furtive out of your POE

Interested to hear why you're clearing STD

[Gimli]

You're 'not as active' for the entirety of my time in the game, my solve does not include you in the POE but all your posts are reactive. I'm trusting shirou's meta on you which is why I keep poking him with it, asked him countless times to expand and update with how the gameday progressed and keep getting nothing.

If you think I'm scum for it then go back to voting me

[Gimli]

Posts only reactive crap for 80 hours

'if anyone has problems reading me *for whatever reason*'

What's that, you think you should be universally townread?

[Gimli]

Gimly you sound scummy sometimes but IDK if thats because in not vibing with the reasoning behind your reads. Can you explain your reads in a bit more detail.

I think I've done that but I can elaborate on all my reads.

Aubrey/furtive: my top townread. I think I can read furtive on how he approaches my slot, it's always clear to me how he is trying to evaluate and I think I grasp how he is always sussing and paranoid of my slot when he is town. There's some history here given our last two completed games together, the last one when I replaced into a condemned scum slot and he scumread me for carelessly posting and being meme-y etc. This morning I could spot him townreading me in real time but being pulled back by the fact he is scumreading my predecessor. I feel his emotions as towny ones. And Aubrey was just the same, the towniest posts in D2? Their evaluation of the NK while simultaneously trying to work out their Ari scumread read as a town who is paranoid of the game state and is reading too far into the NK. I think that's particularly hard to make up when you're mafia.

Fireisred: I didn't read Ari, so the entirety of my read on fire comes from fire's posts. From the get go I felt they were towny, but I was afraid their spectator reads were surfacing to the main thread, making him look towny for it and not being actually town etc. But the way he is progressing through D2, always interacting with the thread in an active, solvey manner and interjecting with his own ideas reminds me of pairs mafia and is just about what I expect of him. His soft defend on my slot is a plus as I'm surely a potential miselim that mafia can't afford to townread. In this aspect this is a much different game then the other ones I played as I'm a potential miselim and not a slot that mafia will try to buddy as I still have no sway in the thread.

So speaking of going with the flow, my top two townreads are not universally townread and are in people's POEs. So I'm not going with the flow, I don't think, I'm doing my own work here which highly differentiates from everyone else.

I got no battery left but I'll post my other reads In a bit

[Gimli]

I should probably skip Giuseppina since it's the only universal townread in the game.

So those three: Giuseppina/fire/furtive. My towncore completes with shirou, who I think I explained in detail already why I'm townreading, so if you're interested you can ISO me and pick those up. And then on the back of my shirou townread, for solving purposes I'm adding Norwee. I'm increasingly uncomfortable with doing that but I still think it's a sensible way to work through the game.

Now for the POE, which is really a bunch of nulltowns: toto, std, klick, CSF, TGP. I think CSF has been pretty towny, I'm just not townreading more cause it lacks presence like furtive or Giuseppina or shirou, so I can't go there yet. But the way they're approaching the slots is always inquisitive, trying to spot issues with the progression of players' reads and - even if I disagree with their conclusions - projects a mindset that I associate with being town.

I'm tired of phoneposting big posts so I'm back later

[Gimli]

I need a mafia break

Word.

My thumb is sore after writing today

[Gimli]

My reasons for voting TGP have nothing to do with whatever happened D1 between him and shirou, and I think I was the second vote after... STD? Either way this wagon wasn't formed because of shirou and given his current posting it's still happening despite of him

[Gimli]

Just so you won't beat yourself up too much if tgp flips town, shirou

[Gimli]

Okay

[Gimli]

That was okay to toto but if you wanna CFD me that's fine

[Gimli]

Chinese fried drill

Eh it's an old kinda ew term but it means making a counterwagon out of nowhere and eliminating them

[Gimli]

I've given what I could in this gamethread

[Gimli]

I completely forgot what the acronym stood for many many years ago, sorry for this. Had to Google it to respond

[Gimli]

Just so you won't beat yourself up too much if tgp flips town, shirou

i'm literally saying there's good odds of tgp flipping town because of other slots you always feels so snarky about me

and you voted tgp because there was already a wagon there and there was a wagon on tgp because i created a wagon on it in D1 by 1v1'ing him and it ended up with him scumposting

do i sound egoistical? probably hell yeah sorry?

am i objectively wrong? i don't think so??

how is it wrong to say i created the foundation of the tgp wagon

There was no wagon on TGP when I voted him

[Gimli]

toto is town, probably—i'm happy to include them in my townbloc. they are wrong about me and i think shirou but not in directions where i would be like "hey, yes, this is very Convenient for you, this Benefits you." they're pushing against two townies. also 1596 is plausibly not out of scumtoto's range but they get townpoints for them

Can you expand on your toto townread? I'm not sure I follow this. How is it not convenient for scum if they're pushing against townies?

gimli / lucian slot is lean town, don't have strong takes here but a) unlike shirou i think it is much easier for scum to SR me / go with the flow then stick their necks out or wtv and be like "you guys are town

Who's townreading you, me or Lucian before me? Is that the only reason you're townreading my slot?

Wrt my townread on you, it's waiting fast. I don't like your reads post and I think you're writing this to appear towny instead of being town. Don't see the solvyness in it

*waining fast

Phoneposting sucks

AlsoVOTE: TGP

The more I look at these reads the more I feel it doesn't come from town

Actually

Fire and CSF were there, but either way my reasons have nothing to do with D1. I was townreading TGP ever so slightly for his D1 iso

[Gimli]

VOTE: Gimli

Yeah so anyway I still don't understand what it means or what it had to do with mafia but it's one of those extremely old acronyms from back when I played that people used and I learned to talk this way

[Gimli]

Quoted the wrong thing

Anyway that's enough of me for now

[Gimli]

TGP is the reason why tgp is a wagon

[Gimli]

You didn't quote my progression and you don't realize I'm townreading most of the game when I finally spotted something scummy and decided it was good enough to go with it

[Gimli]

My posts back when I was freshly entering the game were good posta :~ been posting too much without reading.

I blame having to phonepost throughout

[Gimli]

Ctrl f and TGP? Cause then it misses me talking to TGP about his reads

But anyway it doesn't matter, thats your read and it's fine. It's wrong but I get it, I should've made myself clearer and I need to cut on my crappy posting

Pedit: you 'guess'

[Gimli]

It's cool.
Pretending to understand English words and slang by copying it despite not understanding it is a big part of how i grew up on the internet.

Yeah that's a thing

I still don't understand many of the terms people use here like... Seesaw?

[Gimli]

We have three days for you to post your case

[Gimli]

UNVOTE:

[Gimli]

You need to case furtive especially if you think he is mafia

[Gimli]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: gimli

it's either you or tgp today to me

your choice

do you like just have a bunch of anime gifs or do you go to like anime-gif.com and type in "shaking head no"

i search for them on the spot yes

I'm unvoting so you can find the thread open to post tomorrow

Idc about dying too much as I've done what I could for town even if I sucked at it, wagoning me is fine

[Gimli]

VOTE: tgp

Ok captain

Gnight everyone sorry for being shit this game

[Gimli]

First

[Gimli]

Not touching fire or furtive today as I think their play on D2 was too hard on TGP to be a likely bus

Shirou is all sorts of hyper and tried to CW a townie the whole D2, don't know what to make of it now

CSF, klick, norwee, pina, and toto.. so many slots to parse out

[Gimli]

Csf casing TGP is also a good look, I think

[Gimli]

Why is Fire and Furtive untouchable? TGP was the most bussable slot i've ever seen.

That's your opinion. I think he was only looking super bussable after people started to hard case and vote him, and furtive even though he came later on spent his entire time here making sure no one else but TGP would flip, even when STD and shirou and toto were all considering me as a counterwagon

[Gimli]

Are you talking about yourself?

Is that a rhetorical question

[Gimli]

I'm on my phone and I'm travelling again tonight, I'm saying what I'm saying from memory. The part about it being "impossible to come from partners" is on you, which idk if it's a tendency you have regardless or if you're mafia here, but doing a straw man just to beat it up is a tiresome approach.

[Gimli]

I'm townreading furtive and fireside before the flip and I think they look great after the flip

[Gimli]

I have no idea man @norwee

@fireside granted. He did look incredibly good on D2, keeping the wagon tight and killing other options. As a replacement too. I think his tone was fair and if that's an endgame play then props to furtive cause it is fooling me here.

[Gimli]

I'm sorry about your loss klick

[Gimli]

whats your reason for thinking shirou's push on you is bad? why do you think you should be clearly town here?

Because you CHUCKLEF***S were about to vote someone else

And I FORCED the vote through

I believe you fwiw but I'm potatoing the gameday and won't do much to save you here if people really want this flip

[Gimli]

We have three goddamn eliminations to hit one mafia? Or two?

[Gimli]

It's not against the rules to throw or I'd be banned after pairs mafia

I'm town, furtive. I have no energy to fight against your elimination, no good grasp of d1,.etc. sucks to replace in yo. That's for both of us

[Gimli]

Did shirou really hard push TGP? I only saw him pushing norwee and then, ugh, the D1 elimination I forgot who it was

[Gimli]

We have three goddamn eliminations to hit one mafia? Or two?

We need one more scum flip, the other auto-concedes (whiteflags)

So that's two not three eliminations. If we miselim twice we lose, yes.

[Gimli]

For Gimli, he had a lot of energy yesterday, so I'm interested in why he doesn't want to defend one of his top two townreads today

Rl and maybe I'm already burnt out from mafia in general

I'll try to pay attention to this game maybe friday. V/la is taking longer than it should unfortunately

[Gimli]

Also is it just me or does the site need more padding on the right? I'm on mobile and i keep trying to scroll right to see if there's more

New site is not great on mobile, I'm also having a hard time quoting parts of a post instead of the whole thing, dunno how to do that yet

[Gimli]

im probably voting there in spirit but i don't have interest in ending the day soon so im not voting yet

I don't like this, it feels like you were waiting for people to start going after my slot so you could readjust your treatment of it

[Gimli]

I also don't like furtive widening the scum pool to add Giuseppina and then being angly around the replace out.

[Gimli]

Wrt furtive and fire's expectation that I'd be hard defending furtive today, I think shirou's case makes a lot of sense and can see the way furtive comes as a replace in with TMI and a longshot plan. He was way too confident coming into it which made me strong townread the slot, but who tf replaces into 60+ pages of game and has strong precise reads like furtive had? Something is probably off

[Gimli]

@furtive: your case against Giuseppina amounts to nothing.

I'm not in the mood to explain why I think she is town, I think I've done that many times already, nor do I feel like thunderdoming with you. I don't like what you're doing this gameday, you're widening the scum pool and setting up eliminations, you say you read the entire game but I don't see it, all I see is a bunch of big boy confidence that is easy to fake as a wolf

[Gimli]

im worried about the possible world where furtive is town

makes this a loss when it really shouldn't be

'possible world'

No matter the result of this game, I will have things to say in post. Seriously the scumreads on me are next level BS and I can't wait for postgame or dead thread to console me

furtive, serious question
Why should I be townreading your slot *outside* of your push on TGP yesterday?
I don't think a bus from you on TGP yesterday is unrealistic

I thought your general demeanor and confidence was towny yesterday, but considered as a whole, your tone has been really consistent in a worrying way. Your confidence feels like a facade because it's no different from how you were yesterday.

I think it's entirely possible that it's a facade of confidence coming from town. But it definitely doesn't feel genuine.

So talk to me. What kind of confidence do you *actually* have on your current reads?
What are you doing differently here as town that you wouldn't do as scum?

Bolded is what's weighing on me now

[Gimli]

@furtive: I'm not in the mood, you go ahead and thunderdome yourself. I'm not sure you're mafia as opposed to you who is so grossly confident about me

Pedit: the argument is that TGP was bussed by both wolves because they desperately need to towncore. Everyone was on TGP so this point is moot, it's exactly what happened, so the question is who did this while presenting themselves as having TMI? Has nothing to do with insecurity

[Gimli]

im worried about the possible world where furtive is town

makes this a loss when it really shouldn't be

'possible world'

No matter the result of this game, I will have things to say in post. Seriously the scumreads on me are next level BS and I can't wait for postgame or dead thread to console me

furtive, serious question
Why should I be townreading your slot *outside* of your push on TGP yesterday?
I don't think a bus from you on TGP yesterday is unrealistic

I thought your general demeanor and confidence was towny yesterday, but considered as a whole, your tone has been really consistent in a worrying way. Your confidence feels like a facade because it's no different from how you were yesterday.

I think it's entirely possible that it's a facade of confidence coming from town. But it definitely doesn't feel genuine.

So talk to me. What kind of confidence do you *actually* have on your current reads?
What are you doing differently here as town that you wouldn't do as scum?

Bolded is what's weighing on me now

Is it really

Let's say a player has x confidence. If they're right about a day's elimination, especially mafia, will that confidence increase or decrease?

Your confidence seems manufactured and not real towny evaluating, it has no nuance it has no distrust or second guessing itself. You talk about being right about one slot as if this is your first ride.

[Gimli]

I hate quoting on the new site btw, it's cluttering the thread and it's hard to edit on phone

[Gimli]

im probably voting there in spirit but i don't have interest in ending the day soon so im not voting yet

I don't like this, it feels like you were waiting for people to start going after my slot so you could readjust your treatment of it

furtive got a lot townier imo

and i also started to doubt that shirou might be scum

my poe of those two + klick + you was given in like my first post of the day

talking to furtive also made me go back and take another look at your and lucian's posts

i think saying that i was just waiting for others to push there before i did ignores the context of the situation. i didn't take you from a townread to a scumread, i took you from like 3rd priority to 2nd or 1st priority

Okay, I think it's interesting because you've been vocalizing a townread on me throughout the game, which I thought... I think, for the most part, had the nuance of a townread coming from a townie and not some form of pocketing. and then you begin to change your position wrt my slot, including how you've been treating my predecessor. And it feels like it's opportunistic, you know, cause if anyone is getting limmed today it's not shirou or furtive, and the same things they've been doing all game you're townreading now. But yeah idk.

Who's scum in your wagon?

[Gimli]

You're townreading all the three people voting you? That's hard to believe given the gamestate.

As for your other points, fine. But you needed shirou to interact with you to townread him, and he only had meaningful interactions with you when he started to hard scumcase you! This is backwards logic iiam.

I'll have more time for this game tomorrow.

[Gimli]

VOTE: fireisred

Hope this ends the game

[Gimli]

Sorry if you're town, fire.

[Gimli]

Gimli did you think that was the hammer?

Of course not, but I'd hammer too, kinda zoning off of this game and hoping it ends with the next flip

[Gimli]

Gimli did you think that was the hammer?

Of course not, but I'd hammer too, kinda zoning off of this game and hoping it ends with the next flip

is there a reason you're zoning off of this game?

Sorry I didn't respond before, I'm commuting a lot, which is part of why I just can't bother too much. Not needing to solve the game + being a D2 replacement who never had time to read D1, and today you're all just arguing on and on and on in circles and it's like, we have three eliminations left, I appreciate all the hard work but can't be bothered to follow anymore and would rather just potato through a kill and hope it flips mafia and ends the game.

So yeah idk, as I said I'm sorry if you're town but I'm not motivated enough to parse it out. If people feel stronger about someone not gimli I'm most likely voting them too

[Gimli]

I have not. If you have a good meta based reason Im all ears.

The meta thing is more of a feeling than something I can pinpoint - Gimli is normally more relaxed and natural

All they said in response to me/Fire was trying to (re)establish the narrative pushed by Shirou that we were meant to be the votes today, and repeating the same really unconvincing arguments as to why.

Maybe shirou is right though

[Gimli]

@furtive: You want to murder me for days, it feels agenda driven on top of being not fun at all to play

[Gimli]

I was calling you captain when we were killing scum, I'm not gonna be nice to you when you want to kill me

[Gimli]

gimli being demotivated to do anything is also kinda blegh

i'm bored of this game and the fault isn't mine if this is wrong

I'm still taking time out of doing other things to be here though. I just wish we started flipping people already. Last pages are madness to read through. We're talking in circles again right now, I'm bored too

[Gimli]

@furtive: You want to murder me for days, it feels agenda driven on top of being not fun at all to play

It's a game. My agenda is to murder you because I think you're mafia

It's the way you're doing it, you don't even care about talking to me you're just loud big boy annoying af tunneler. I can deal with shirou doing it cause I kind of expect him to. From you I think it's scummy, and if you're town it's just disappointing to see such closemindedness but whatever, it's not like we know each other enough for you to spot that this is my town game

[Gimli]

i think if u are scum u should just self-hammer by this point gimli

no one would blame u

"Gimli is demotivated, that's blergh"

[Gimli]

I'm gone to bed now gn princes and welcome lycan to the game

[Gimli]

So much talk so little flipping

Am I E-1? And fire isn't even in it? Spineless

[Gimli]

GG all, town played too good

<3 klick and tgp, we win next time

Thanks peta for modding

[Gimli]

Oh and even better.
This is a scum-sided setup that historically has very low town win%.

This has to be a townsided setup though, even if the scum win % is high

Town deserved it either way

[Gimli]

Furtive too good

[Gimli]

i guess i think everything klick is doing is townie

EXCEPT

if TGP is scum i think klick's defense of TGP would be pretty scummy

i wonder if i died because of this

You died cause I'd never convince you I wasn't mafia

[Gimli]

No redactions from me either

[Gimli]

I think this game & Dance game worsened my existential sadness by a lot...

I feel like in both I tried to read too much the associatives/anti-associatives and understand what was the entire "scum plan" rather than just look/judge slots individually. It pains me so hard that I had much better reads

before

a scum flip in both games, @TGP fake associative wifom completely worked on regards to fire to me, and just assuming scum never defends their partner made me

once again

incorrectly clear a slot I didn't like that much previously...

[

Norwe

] - town read
[

CSF, Pina

] - town lean
[

StD, Fire

] - nulltown
[

Toto

,

Gimli

,

Aubrey

] - null
[---] - nullscum
[

Klick, TGP

] - scum lean
[---] - scum read

Out of the above null pool I also disliked Gimli/Aubrey the most:

idk man I feel like

Gimli

can't stop scum posting

I look at

TGP

and feel like "hm wow this is so scummy, it's prob scum right?", I look at

Klick

's posts and think "oh, this is more of a ~deep~ wolf, scummy but hides it well...maybe red yeah?"

w/

Gimli

the unique thing that goes through my head is

"scumposting, scumposting and hm, more scumposting"

idk maybe [

TGP/Klick/Gimli

] is a better guaranteed scum pool than [

TGP/Klick

/

Aubrey

]?

I just want to register that just like how Panic Room made me give up on meta because I'm

horrible

at it most of the time, I think this game plus dance game is gonna make me run away from associative/anti-associative tells like "scum almost always bus", "scum almost never defends partners openly", "scum probably does this in this situation with a partner" and etc. I'm clearly

horrible

at it apparently as well.

I increasingly am not even sure I've the motivation to play mafia anymore though, I'm just devastated and ashamed. Going from having the entire scum team in the lim pool on the basis of individual reads and looking like a clown by the end tunneling two townies because I'm once again trying to pull out of my ass the modus operandis of the scum team...I'm speechless. I lost quite a bit of sleep trying to solve this game and it just ends like a cruel joke once again I guess.

You care too much. It's a party game, you should have fun instead. There's no shame in having wrong reads and "devastated and ashamed" are very strong feelings when you're supposed to have fun. I singlehandedly threw dance game entirely and lost the game for you and every other towny, and you dare being ashamed of it for one wrong tunnel. Like, come on dude.

One thing I'd suggest is not trying to force everyone to do what you want, cause that's what's making it tiresome and a little toxic for you and everyone and that's why I never considered NKing you, cause I knew you had a good chance of playing against your own wincon, even ir your reads were right! Nobody likes being told what to do. You win and lose games as a team, very seldomly as a solo hero.

Mafia can be too much fun but it's also easy to burn out from it, we all need a break from time to time, sometimes it takes years to feel good about playing again etc. I'm saying this cause it's our third game together and you look burnt out. I tried using it to my advantage here, but I prefer playing with people who are enjoying themselves, you know.

Anyway just my 2c. You played very well.