Open 144 - Near-Vanilla - GAME OVER!

[Khamisa]

/confirm

[Khamisa]

vote hohum

for double posting

[Khamisa]

Unvote

I'm not sure if I like Zer0's play, but mainly because it is bad and untypical.

The Corporation wrote:
What kind of mafia to town numbers are we looking at here. Three mafioso would make sense wouldn't it? If someone can confirm this I have a vote to dispense.


...

Did you really not know this was an open setup? I tend to be suspicious of people who make "newbie" mistakes like this because it seems like an attempt to appear innnocent and naive.

He is a 'Townsperson', so I wouldn't exactly put it behind him, except for maybe the fact that you have to go to the Open Game Queue to sign up.

[Khamisa]

ODDin:

Oh yeah, I have claimed to be scum 3 or 4 times I believe now. I won't claim scum if I don't get pissed at the stupidity of people. So far, I see no stupidity. But we're only 4 pages in.

He will claim scum. That's always a bad move that just makes players more angry at him and doesn't contribute to the scumhunting operation.

Also because some people I hate so much in this game, that I wanted to ensure their loss, mafia or not.

You are supposed to be playing this game to win, not to try to force others you don't like to lose.

I've never played with 13 players, but I would definitely assume that there are 3, because assuming there are 2 may result in bad judgment.

He doesn't know the setup when this is an "Open Game" in which you have to sign up in the "Open Game Queue". Sounds slightly ignorant to me.

And Pitstop looks like he's active lurking, which is definitely not a good thing.

[Khamisa]

Khamisa, I do play to win when I enter, but some people, not that I will say any names [ZWET], piss me off to the point where winning is not priority one. It's more like 2. Ignorant, ha! *Inhales cig* I don't even know what ignorant is.

Well, I guess I just don't let my emotions into gameplay. And your "ignorant" statement doesn't make sense.

And btw, do you want me to claim scum, because you seem to want me to with the assured thought that I will.

No, because it's not correct play in any light.

Not to mention that "He will claim scum" sounds like a horribly forced and lame attempt to lynch Zer0.

That was poorly worded, I meant like in past games he has claimed scum and it's something he may possibly do. I didn't mean it as a certain action.

[Khamisa]

Nothing much new, except for that Zer0's "observing reactions" is long past done.

[Khamisa]

...Then what are you doing exactly? Not observing?

I mean that that shouldn't be all he's doing. With 12 pages, he should have observed a lot of reactions now, so he should be asking some questions.

[Khamisa]

Close to being lynched? Don't I have 2 or 3 votes out of 27?

I believe you are posting in the wrong game.

[Khamisa]

Right, and this is not hypocritical how exactly?

Because I'm not doing much of anything.

[Khamisa]

I think Zer0 is annoyed town. His claim to why he knew dejkha wanted replacement did sund a bit fish.

[Khamisa]

1) I wasn't prodded,

2) I read through the pages and honestly didn't have much more to say than that; this setup usually leads to extremely boring games,

3) I need to focus on the Cephrir case right now, something I don't get.

[Khamisa]

Well no one is exactly any more prominent in this game right nowthan Zer0ph34r and Cephrir.

[quote="The Replacement"If you thought these games are generally more boring than most games, then why did you join?[/quote]

Just because no one's held their breath longer than the world record doesn't mean no one's going to try. Humans try to change things, and I'm hoping to make it more exciting.

[Khamisa]

Oddin: Where did I say "I always play like this?" plus, a 1-completed-game meta doesn't mean much.

Kdub: OK:

I don't get the Cephrir case. I searched his posts and couldn't find a "note to self" anywhere. Whatever the case, I'm sure bunches of other players make "notes to self" and yes, they are useless (I eman, does anybody really go back and look at them) but they aren't telling in any form I can think of.

[Khamisa]

Khamisa: His note to self is post 177. Do you believe his explanation for the note?

I wasn't able to find a cut-and-dry explanation for it, but he most likely would have done it because he found something in a player's post that, if they did something that didn't agree with it, he could go back and reference it. I think that's very plausible.

Do you all believe that Alduskkel is pro-town, anti-town or mafia?

WHAT? Did you seriously just ask this question? What is the point of it?

[Khamisa]

Khamisa, what don't you understand about the Cephrir wagon?

You've asked this again like you think I didn't answer it. See my post above. It appears I understand it now.

[Khamisa]

I can agree that it isn't the best wording, but it makes it seem like Zer0 is worried about our opinion of Aldusk. From the whole Zer0/dejkha reaction earlier, I'd have to say he's leaning a little towards anti-town/mafia, whichever you choose.

[Khamisa]

What does that even mean?

OK, lets use a totally out-there statement.

Say someone said "the sky is blue." Cephrir makes a note of this and then later, when the player says "the sky is green," Cephrir can attack them on this point.

That's a strange way of responding. He asked you what you think of an apparently somewhat arbitrary player... what's wrong with that? Your initial reaction was even stranger. By the way, are you planning to say anything in this entire game that someone else hasn't already said?

Alduskkel replaced dejkha, who Zer0ph34r voted for and got a lot of suspicion for it. I think it's awfully strange that he would ask a question like that with these earlier events. That's why I was so surprised.

Why do you think he didn't just put it in his Notes (at the top right of the page, next to Usergroups)?

Cause he probably wouldn't read them. Like he said, he put it right in the thread so that he would catch it on a reread.

And do you agree or disagree with the case? Somewhere in between?

I disagree with it. I see no problem with leaving a Note to Self if that's how you need to play most efficiently.

It seems like you're accepting the Ceph lynch as innevitable right now and are hoping to line up Zero as a quick mislynch tomorrow (theoretically).

I do not believe the Cephrir lynch is inevitable; his current case is poorly reasoned. And you seem very sold on the fact that a Zer0 lynch is a mislynch.

[Khamisa]

The note he left in the open wasn't to remind himself of something someone said - - it was him being obscure about a read on another player (do you think that's something you dangle in front of other players out of the RVS?)

Well that's how I interpreted it. A more scum related one would be someone saying "scum until proven town" then later saying "town until proven scum"

Khamisa, you should also notice that the case on Ceph isn't based entirely on his note to self. There are inconsistencies and self-contradictions in his posts, he's been accused of role-fishing, of appealing to emotion... do you disagree with all of these and claim they're based on poor logic?

I feel that Cephrir does those things quite often; sometimes he's town, sometimes he's scum.

[Khamisa]

OK, Cephrir's Metaexamples:

Mini 747, where he himself said this:

I knew people were going to find that comment scummy. Because obviously it's my job to get lynched day 1 or 2 regardless of alignment and it has to happen somehow, right?

Mafia 82

Mini 698, where he also withheld information for a bit

Open 86

Open 84

And that's about everything in the last year. They're all examples of Cephrir playing as town, most of which he's acting in a sarcastic, somewhat careless way that realizes all his mistakes. He's one of those players that doesn't change playstyle whether scum or town.

[Khamisa]

ODDin and Alduskkel: I don't like the way you are looking at things. Either I present my meta case and look like I'm active lurking, or say it was just gut (which it wasn't) and get suspected for that as well. Who's to say I didn't read other games in some spare time and noticed Cephrir's play?

Khamisa, who do you like for scum at this point?

I still don't like how Zer0ph34r voted dejkha immediately after he requested replacement; his "reasoning' could have been easily fabricated. Also, Alduskkel (who is dejkha's replacement) and ODDin are quick to push me into a corner with their "active lurking" ploy.

Cephrir: I merely included examples that show you as town and acting the way you are now. There was no need for the scum meta. I merely wanted to show that it's possible for you to be acting the way you are and still be town.

[Khamisa]

Why does Zero voting for dejkha seem scummy to you? Also could you please clarify what you mean by "his 'reasoning' could have been easily fabricated"?

Because it seemed like he was mad that dejkha was quitting, but I don't understand why a simple townie would do that. It appeared that Zer0ph34r was mad at dejkha for quitting so he voted him. This was discussed earlier in the thread.

The reason he gave for his vote could have been easily made up. It really doesn't even sound that convincing to me.

[Khamisa]

@Khamisa: Why do you think Zer0ph34r sounded mad when voting for dejkha? And you also say that Zer0ph34r's reason for voting for dejkha (more likely to replace out when scum) is a meta reason, the same basic type of reason that you are using to get a Town read on Cephrir. So what's with the inconsistency?

He didn't sound mad, he sounded frustrated that his scum partner was leaving. Also, I backed up my meta argument, what he has said is simply a statement.

[Khamisa]

V/LA 3rd through 5th. Obvious reasons.

[Khamisa]

Vote: Zer0ph34r

Since I don't believe in the Ceph case, I going to go with what I think is the best lead so far.

[Khamisa]

Haven't I explained this before? Let's try it again.

Let's say Zer0, dejkha, and an unknown third are scum partners.

dejkha all of a sudden crops up and says "REPLACE ME".

Zer0 wonders "Why? We aren't fielding much suspicion? Zer0 is

frustrated

that one of his partners quit on him, so he votes him in frustration (and also being a bus). However, his little reasoning gets everybody's attention.

[Khamisa]

Where does it say that dej and Zer0 are brothers? i defintiely didn't catch that.

Zer0 already claimed vanilla.

[Khamisa]

Kise: Ah. I don't think anyone would dare fake that.

Unvote.

[Khamisa]

I'm here

No kill means jailkeeper was successful or mafia didn't kill. Not going to delve into the folds of OMGUS there.

I think Kdub's case on AndyTony is a bit weak.

Whoever mentioned that we look for relationships with Cephrir: IMO, that seems pointless: he's town, so what would any relationships mean?

Zer0: I promise I was honestly V/LA, lying about it just goes against the boundaries of fairness. Speaking of which

Sorry again, but I will be V/LA M-F this upcoming week. But that's it for big chunks of V/LA!

[Khamisa]

lobster: I don't get your reasoning for my vote.

Kdub - I didn't feel zer0's reasoning for voting dejkha was up to par. That was before I knew they were brothers.

ODDin in 991: When have I manufactured a case?

hohum's 994 is a moste aggressive forme of tunneling.

I know this isn't very much for the 6-8 pages I missed, but It'll take me some time to get back into mafia playing.

[Khamisa]

@khamisa - Do you have any suspects? If not, then who is closest to being scum IYO?

Not really suspects, more like minor suspicions. hohum seems very tunnelled onto AT, and I don't like it. I can't help but be wary about Zer0, even though his playstyle is virtually separated from his role.

You initially thought Zer0 was town after his initial vote for dejkha, but changed your opinion later to thinking he was scum. What caused you to change your opinion? Zer0 had posted basically nothing substantial in between the posts where you switch your view on him.

You cannot just look totally at what zer0 said, but what others said as well. Others noted that zer0's immediate vote indicated frustration. I can't remember, but I probably noticed this on a reread and saw the reasoning, and it made sense.

Lobster, Khamisa, Zero, Kise,
- Can I get your opinions on 1023?

I can agree with this. Initially, I was thinking that "Fine." doesn't really indicate much, especially when the next word is "But...". However, I like the theory at the end that "scum hunt for lynches, town hunts for scum".

[Khamisa]

d3x: I found very little suspicious about Cephrir. Even If I didn't know where the note to self was or what it was about, I had a good idea what it was, and based my opinions off of that. Plus, yes, there is the part where it looks like I'm scum because I stayed off the Cephrir lynch, but it's equally if not more scummy that there was actually a Cephrir lynch which consisted of very little in my opinion.

On analyzing the Cephrir relationships, I can understand the view of looking for those who pushed his lynch, but I do not like the buddying thing. Buddying with a townie would be fruitless for scum; I just can't see any reasoning behind it.

I know you replaced in, d3x, but I personally find it very hard to read mounds upon mounds of posts. I'd personally much rather jump in at the current state and go from there.

AndyTony: The two weeks I was gone was because I was only able to have access on Saturdays. That's all over now, so I should be back to normal.

I disagree with what you are saying about me "playing it safe". Is there a difference between that and acting town? I fail to see what you are saying here.

Kdub: I honestly can't remember why else I would have changed my opinion. I'll confront the other stuff later; it personally didn't left any imprint on me when I read.

[Khamisa]

d3x: but see, if people suspect this, smart scum isn't going to want to buddy with town. That's meta. Sure, people make tells, but they're still smart.

As for my wagon, I feel it wasn't good timing for the V/LA to occur, seeing how I was already under suspicion.

Personally, I don't think I can recover

hohum: You want to not advocate my lynch and you'd rather people lynch you? that is just weird.

I guess before I get lynched I'd like a clear definition of active lurking, how I'm doing it, and why it's scummy.

[Khamisa]

On active lurking: This maybe a little too late to say this, but:

I don't feel like I'm lurking. Except for the VLA, this is generally how I post (1-2 times a day per game) and I usually am able to keep up and get things done. However, the complexity of this game, the uninterestingness of this game, and the aforementioned VLA have all made it hard to keep up and stay interested in this game.
However, I believe it's not OK to call someone active lurking just because they are more informed about a player even though they've never played with them. It's not strange for a new player to read a few games, correct? I'm not saying I read every one of Cephrir's games before I started this, but when it was mentioned in the friend I remembered its similarity to other games I've read and pointed it out.

ODDin: First, manufacturing a case and using old stuff to form a case are not the same. When you say manufacture, you sound like I'm making stuff up. Using old stuff is OK; for example, if something was scummy 2 months ago, I don't see how it becomes unscummy now. I don't agree with that.

[Khamisa]

ODDin - OK, I see what you mean. I may have just done what you said and just brought it back into attention again. Not exactly full of worth, but I don't see it as scummy.
Also, I feel I did decently in presenting the meta case for Cephrir, but I guess I didn't push it. I think the problem was that people focused more on the fact that I had created this huge meta with my playstyle instead of actually looking at the meta.

Kdub - I promise to post opinions. Don't let me forget this!

AT - I can agree with you that this game does stray from my meta. However, by straying from my meta it does also stray away from the places I was scum as well as town. Don't you think that my playstyle appears to be much more based on how interested I'm in in the game rather than role?

For example, I believe you mentioned Jungle Republic: a scum example of me. Do you feel that the play of mine in that game and the play in this one are similar?

[Khamisa]

EBWOP: Also, hohum isn't really playing in the spirit of the game. I believe you can actually play, so if you believe so against my lynch, then do something about it.

There's an opinion for you, Kdub. =D

[Khamisa]

AndyTony and Aldusskel: I believe that I'm not playing nowhere similar to Jungle Republic. AT, do you think if I thought it was hurting me, I would've brought it out?

Aldusskel: I do not believe I ever "I told you so"ed in this game. Also, I'm wrong here too. There was another Jungle Republic with AA23, who is AT's alt. That's the one I'm talking about. Still, maybe D1 is the same, but the D2's are drastically different.

MCD: Mistaking names isn't really a scumtell. That's just poor brainpower.

Some more opinions.

pablito: Slightly less inactive than pablito, yet still not approvable gameplay.
Chinaman: Where is he? I didn't like who he replaced, Zer0.
AndyTony: Similar to the Jungle Republic I

thought

we were talking about. Town there, so probably town here.
Kise: Don't remember the last time he posted. Strange for Kise.
ODDin and lobstermania : lurkier versions of MCD and Kdub.
MCD , d3x, and Kdub: Active, scumhunting folk.
Aldusskel: OK. Somewhat unsure of himself, which is OK - I'd expect town to be less certain than scum.

[Khamisa]

Obviously, AndyTony, your brain is somewhere else. You did not mention me in your list, even though I am your biggest suspect. I don't know what to make of this.

Anyway, AndyTony: I thought Cephrir was town. I presented a meta case which I thought made it very likely that Cephrir was town. No one looked at this case and instead pointed out how this didn't look similar to my regular gameplay. I also believe I suspected Zer0.

I'm tired of being accused of not having concrete stances on things.

I thought Cephrir was town.
I thought Zer0ph34r was scum. I later changed my opinion when I learned that Zer0 and dejkha were brothers.

I can agree that I was somewhat lurky during D1, but just because I lacked opinion doesn't make what I did say any less concrete.

Kdub: For suspicions, I feel that hohum is being useless, but not necessarily scummy. I don't like the insane tunnelling of AndyTony; however, he did this Open 143 and was town, so I'm don't think that in itself is scummy.

[Khamisa]

Andytony: I gave posts in Isolation of myself. It's easier that way.

Posts indicating my thinking Cephrir was town
16-18

Posts indicating I thought Zer0 was scum
19-21, 23 and 24

Where it changes to thinking Zer0 was town
25 and 26

---

Also: I know that there are a lot of games with me as scum. However, you haven't completely proven the meta: I don't believe my scum play varies hugely from my town play.

A few examples:

Kaiveran's Crossfire - Even though I got replaced and it was abandoned, I was still town.

Nuwen's Cockatiels and Pussy Cats

ortolan's Alternating 9P

rokovoj's Trendy And Subversive C9

I guess I need this side of the argument to make you understand why I don't feel my play is different.

[Khamisa]

AndyTony: As much as it feels good to have someone half compliment on my playstyle, I think I would've done that in this game too, except I found it so boring. I probably should've done one after my V/LA, but I left in the middle of a bunch of arguments so starting there wouldn't make sense to me or any other player trying to read what I put down.
On the actual "evidence": I feel like I'm playing the same. I guess it looks different, but I think there's points in every game I've played where I have played the same as I am now.

Kise: us all converting to hohumism isn't going to solve anything. It's like normal religion. Anyway, my access: I can usually post everyday but Sunday, and when I don't post, it's only because I have something else going on. There shouldn't be anymore huge weeks of V/LA during this game.

Kdub: I feel like active lurking is posting but not really contributing. That's kind of a general definition; however, I believe that different people can be active lurking differently. I do realize that this looks like active lurking, but I don't feel like it is in my opinion.

[Khamisa]

Kdub: I feel I was lurking in the beginning of the game and now I'm contributing.

AndyTony: I likely am waiting for night (if I make it there), simply because I want to have a fresh start for tomorrow. My double V/LA this day didn't help my case any.

As for my thoughts, Chinaman is acting very strangely. I would like to know why he voted AndyTony.

[Khamisa]

There is a secret to my Cephrir defense back on Day 1, but I want to wait until my other game finishes before I reveal.

[Khamisa]

No, MCD, it's

so

much deeper...

[Khamisa]

OK, I'm dead in all my other games on this account, so I figure I can TELL:

I'm an alt of skitzer.

That's how I knew so much about Cephrir's play, because I've obviously played with him before. I slipped by saying this, and so instead of simply revealing my true identity, I made a meta which consequently ruined my game.

So that's that. I'll keep Khamisa up until I can see that happy conclusions of all my other games, and then I'll shut it down and get a new alt for playing games, which will publicly revealed from the get-go.