Open 170 - Bird C9 (Game Over)

[Eldritch Lord]

Confirming

[Eldritch Lord]

Obvious OMGUS: Snix

[Eldritch Lord]

Haha, just to be sure I'm adhering to Moderator rules:

Vote: Snix

[Eldritch Lord]

Unvote

Vote: Netlava

Perhaps you should be a little more cautious.

[Eldritch Lord]

Netlava, to put someone at L-1 on page one is pretty bad.

I don't have a problem with anyone being at L-1.

Interesting difference in perspectives, either of you care to elaborate?

[Eldritch Lord]

If you have a power role please don't play conservatively as there's no advantage to doing so in this setup and it makes it more difficult to tell you apart from the scum.

Fishing for a power role? Seems like it. It'd be really nice for scum if someone just conveniently started posting more often after that comment, wouldn't it?

Unvote

Vote: Hohum

[Eldritch Lord]

Snix: you're wrong.

How so? He's absolutely correct, many people don't read before random voting. The hammer does not in any way suggest absolute proof of scumhood in such a scenario, and failure to recognize this concept could result in losing the game on D2. Especially with players asking what LyLo is. Irresponsible hohum.

If your reasoning were correct hohum, every Day 1 would boil down to waiting for a scum to hammer, games would never go anywhere. Scumhunting involves a prolonged Day 1 and is the only viable Day 1 strategy.

[Eldritch Lord]

Exactly, waiting for a mislynch won't net scum every time. You're suggesting having a mislynch on page 1 is acceptable because it will net scum, when the fact is having a mislynch on page one won't net scum every time either.

So suggesting that a

mislynch on page 1 is acceptable because you'll catch the scumhammer

is irresponsible and could cause the loss of the game should you extend that reasoning beyond yourself on Day 2 after a page one quickhammer. Long day ones are extremely protown, this isn't even up for debate.

Also, it'd have been stupid to put blame on my shoulders in this scenario since I'm not about to vote for myself. My random vote obviously had no impact on the L-1 page one situation, so I'm not sure what you were getting at there.

Just because you're careless...

Many people don't read before random voting

I never even implied that I didn't read before random voting, I was speaking about others -- like Netlava.

Strawman construction noted.

Even if I had said that I didn't read before random voting, it wouldn't mean that I'm always careless, that's an ad absurdum argument and is completely valueless.

[Eldritch Lord]

To further my point, the notion that I'm role fishing is also ridiculous...

Promoting your own towniness, nice.

that the math in this case is NOT on the town's side. They...

Calling Freudian Slip right here, referring to the town as

they

.

Pegging off power roles based on playstyle is a viable scum strategy[...]in order for PR to be useful in THIS setup they have to play a little more aggressively

So you establish that picking off PRs based on playstyle is a viable scum strategy at this point, and then suggest that the PRs play a certain way. It'd sure make it easier for you to identify them then, especially if they were new to the forum...like Yankee.

[Eldritch Lord]

So in other words you'd be fine with lynching off a possible town-aligned player at L1 right now? Leaving us at L-or-L D2? Okay.

If it outs scum, absolutely. I'll trade a townie for scum any day in any circumstances.

The

if

here is an important part in a smaller game, because if your

if

doesn't turn out to be true, you've lost the game. It's not a very viable strategy in this situation, its not worth the risk.

How exactly am I misrepresenting your position?

[Eldritch Lord]

god you're an idiot.

Ad hom one-liners aren't earning you any points.

[Eldritch Lord]

god you're an idiot.

Ad hom one-liners aren't earning you any points.

I don't have to justify my position in a theory debate to you. You're not the MS czar here. If you want to advocate my lynch over a disagreement on game theory go right ahead but it isn't going to boad well for you at all when I flip.

*Freudian Slip
*Okay with D-1 quickhammer [x]
*Possible PR fishing

1/3 has to do with theory. Also, I don't recall ever playing a game with you.

[Eldritch Lord]

Hah, forgive me I don't partake in the MS community very often, in fact this is the first set of games I've played since 74. Did you get lynched first in our last game for your blatant ad hominem attacks and emotional, valueless responses?

I see yours hasn't changed at all either.

[Eldritch Lord]

Which has me second guessing my case against you, it might be that you're just naturally this headstrong and it shows through in your town play.

Still, I feel like that's a weak, metagame point, you could be acting this way to invoke that old persona. Vote stays.

[Eldritch Lord]

Except it didn't catch scum in that game, it got you lynched first. Perhaps you should re-think your play style. You haven't responded to any of my actual points against you, instead favoring childish one-line posts that have no relevance to the game:

I see your play style hasn't improved at all since we played together in one of the older scottish mafia games.

I'm ready for some outside input.

Also, baseless accusations like:

Clearly you favor hypocrisy over well-reasoned arguments.

Serve as nothing more than further proof of your ad absurdum style of argument which extends any reasonable point

you could've been making

to an illogical extreme and your inability to cite the source information for your accusations.

Vote: EL

Simple OMGUS

[Eldritch Lord]

10 bucks says he calls that an OMGUS vote.

Call 'em like I see 'em.

[Eldritch Lord]

L-1 is fine if a scum quickhammers and gets caught. Town is actually favored to win in these situations. A 3 person lylo is about 50-50 for scum and town. But with the existence of power roles, town gets the edge.

The problem is, what if town "accidentally" hammers? Someone like... say, me, while not paying attention, might "accidentally" hammer someone... We wouldn't want that to happen, wouldn't we?

You've summed up the argument, including my side, which dcorbe refused to dignify with a response.

How scummy would you rate the other guy at this point?

He's dodging a lot and resorting to ad hom and refusing to answer valid points by brushing them off, calling them ridiculous, etc. Still, this reminds me of my previous play with him in Open 74, he acted the same
way as town. He wasn't scum, but he was acting useless enough for the town to have no problem lynching him first.

I would hate to make the same mistake again, confusing lack of content for scumminess. Again, maybe that's why he's acting this way though, to invoke my memory of that game. For me, its very WIFOMy. For now though, I think he deserves my vote.

[Eldritch Lord]

Playstyle lynches are going to cause us to lose

but oh well.

I'm done, lynch away.

Childish "I give up, screw you guys" post, maybe you should actually be posting instead of just dropping insults here and there and acting self-righteous.

Going down as a failed appeal to emotion.

[Eldritch Lord]

@hohum: How scummy or not-scummy would you rate the EL at this point? (just trying to figure out where you stand)

Netlava, you seem fairly content to be sitting on the outside of this without casting a vote in either direction. How do you feel about all of this?

Despite your disclaimer, I'm afraid you might be trying to tunnel vision while maintaining a safe distance from the wagon.

[Eldritch Lord]

How do you feel about the entire situation since you've been gone between Hohum and I?

How do you feel about Netlava sitting on the outside making those comments?

Lurker lynch anyone?

Probably a good idea to put some pressure on them, but I'm not liking hohum at the moment.

FoS: Toro & Slepz

I'd like to see some more out of you guys.

[Eldritch Lord]

Wow you better flip scum after this shit.

[Eldritch Lord]

TAKEN FROM Mini 817: Chosen (Game Over!)

Rules

1. While it is understandable that on occasion tempers may flare, please remeber that this is a game. Please

have fun, be respectful

of your fellow players and

try not to take anything personally.

Just something you might want to consider for your future games man.

[Eldritch Lord]

Even if you were right and you're town, you wouldn't be helping town by just offing yourself, itd just be a childish action so you could yell I told you so later.

It's not good to vote yourself, play to win, etc.

[Eldritch Lord]

I'm not going to keep arguing with you in twilight about self-hammering, what you did was dumb and doesn't help us at all unless you flip scum, and if you do, good riddance.

[Eldritch Lord]

I don't want to argue with you because you're being childish about this. I hold that it was a dumb idea and anti-town.

[Eldritch Lord]

Take Netlava, he says that he could be one who would possibly hammer. So if that happened, town would probably die D1, a different townie would be offed N1, and then we'd all lynch Netlava on D2, resulting in us losing.

The problem with you using my example is that I know I'm town, but you don't (or do you?), so it's definitely strange when you say this.

I think he was using you as an example of possible town, not confirming your status as town. Toro's really the only one who's posted a big read so far this game, so I'm kind of hesitant to question him. I personally thought Slepz was lurkerscum, but I guess I didn't read it correctly.

Netlava, you were kind of pushing the wagon from the outside -- then you quickly backed off when I was questioning you about it, saying that you didn't see anything in it.

I'm more suspicious of you, Netlava.

FoS: Netlava

FoS: Snix

You know I love you Snix, but I can't risk losing. You really did tack on that extra vote when you were thinking Hohum was just bad town. While no one could've expected the self-hammer, if Netlava was scum, he could've hammered.

It irks me a little bit that Netlava's vote sat on the doc the whole day..

[Eldritch Lord]

You know I love you Snix, but I can't risk losing. You really did tack on that extra vote when you were thinking Hohum was just bad town. While no one could've expected the self-hammer, if Netlava was scum, he could've hammered.

It irks me a little bit that Netlava's vote sat on the doc the whole day..

The problem with that is that I was second to vote, not third.

Good point, it appears I missed that.

UnFoS: Snix

[Eldritch Lord]

I don't want a mislynch here, we're in LyLo, you guys need to back off your votes and calm down for a little bit to get this sorted out -- we need to work out the most logical course of action here.

I agree with Snix on this:

Yankee, unless you have a confirmed scum, claiming on any day is not advised as cop unless you are about to be lynched. And in lylo, claiming that you found an innocent when NO ONE WAS ANYWHERE CLOSE TO LYNCHING HER, does not help. We are still left with no confirmed scum, a partially confirmed townie and a claimed cop.

unFoS: Netlava

FoS: Yankee

[Eldritch Lord]

you claimed cop to see who would claim cop. So in other words Yankee, you claimed to be the cop so you can have the real cop counterclaim and then have your scumbuddy take me out at night.

This seems a little strawmanish, but its still a very valid point.

I don't want to throw around any votes, this is our last day if we mislynch. Hohum's play Day 1 was bad, but I think that it doesn't necessarily incriminate anyone, including myself.

Yankee, I haven't seen any scumhunting from you this whole game, I'm really tempted to vote for you. But on the off-chance that Toro were scum and you were town, his partner would just be waiting to quickhammer.

If we lynch Yankee, like I think is probably the smarter move, and he flips scum, Netlava should be next. Snix has posted without hammering Toro -- meaning if one of you is scum, the other one likely is too since the remaining scum would've hammered by now.

This means that if you flip scum Yankee, Snix is cleared in my eyes and Netlava, you will be dying next. Whereas if we went with Toro and he flipped scum, we'd wind up with a position where it would be split between Snix and myself. First claimer is the better play, in my opinion.
I was premature in UnFoS'ing Netlava.

FoS: Netlava

Shouldn't have unFoS'd you, if Yankee flipped scum you would be a very viable scum partner.

[Eldritch Lord]

Sounds to me like it boils down to Snix's judgment on this.

[Eldritch Lord]

Sounds to me like it boils down to Snix's judgment on this.

Or you...you didn't vote for Yankee.

Well I want to hear from Snix before I do anything, he's the only one who isn't obviously incriminated by my suspicion of Yankee or Yankee's suspicion of you, which are nearly absolute.

Netlava seems like he's made his mind up, and based on meta, I doubt he'll change it.

[Eldritch Lord]

It's funny how the last couple of pages read like a scum quicktopic.

Waiting for Snix = Scummy Quicktopic...

On a 7 page game?

How about you get around to posting your case.

[Eldritch Lord]

Scratch that, just A case, ANY case.

We've got nothing from you so far Netlava.

[Eldritch Lord]

It does though, because if he's scum and waiting for my vote it means he wants it to be my own logic that kills town, where as if he's scum and votes Yankee than he wants it to be his persuasion that kills town and my gullibility. It matters a lot when EL is involved.

First of all, it wouldn't be my side vs. someone else's. I

know

you're more experienced than me and I would lose. I would probably try to kill you.

This is WIFOM, though, maybe thats what I want you to think, etc.

Second of all, I'm on my computer

all the time

. If Toro and I were scumbuddies, we would've caught that window to quickhammer Netlava and end the game -- maybe a 1/100 chance of me not being there but its true. I don't have a life and Snix knows this, so I am pretty much allowed to appeal to that.

With that said, I'm not trying to distance myself from anybody. I'm almost certain you're the scum Yankee, and if you are that almost certainly clears Toro.

I'm willing to throw it all down on Netlava and yourself--and from the looks of it, both Yankee and Netlava are scum if Yankee is scum because of Snixhammer and ELhammer already reporting in without ending this.

We have this gem after Yankee claims cop:

[...]I believe his partner is Snix[...]Also, it is a 66.67% voting scum out of those three so i am confident in my vote of EL

Vote: EL

At this point Toro hadn't counter claimed, and you were so quick to lay a vote on Snix or myself, it could've been Snix and Toro [if you voted me] or Toro and I [voted], (even from your cop perspective), that could've quick hammered and lost us the game. Explain to me why you'd do this in this situation, were you

that

sure, and what made you

that

sure?

No matter how we slice this it seems that it still does come down to Snix. Netlava has been cleared by Yankee so if Yankee were then they'd be right -- if Yankee is not cop then Netlava wouldn't have been cleared.

I think your case on me sounds oddly absolute, making commentary on distancing and playstyle when you hardly know me. I'm rambling at this point though, my cards are on the table.

[Eldritch Lord]

EBWOP

Toro and I [if you voted for Snix.

Considering that you now think Toro and I are scum, do you see how dangerous this could've been if you had voted Snix instead of me or vice versa (at the time)?

You do, but it doersn't matter because I'm pretty sure you're scum.

[Eldritch Lord]

On a side note while reading through this topic in detail, i have noticed one interesting coincidence at post 61-62. As soon as Hohum votes Toro, EL immediately votes for Hohum. I am not saying this is proof they are scumbuddies, just add it to list of evidence...

So am I buddying up or distancing? You're going to have to make up your mind.

[Eldritch Lord]

Also, to be honest, i looked at Hohums thoughts to help me decide which of the three i suspected to be scummy..."

That's just not smart.

[Eldritch Lord]

That certainty is unerring Yankee, what makes you so positive that I'm scum?

You have not investigated me, the only way you could be sure I was scum is if you were scum or had investigated me.

I still don't see how your case against me is so strong. I essentially share Snix's reasoning, that one should hold off and wait on voting to make this day a little longer.

I also share Snix's sentiment that Toro is more likely to be cop based on your claims (and their circumstances). So what exactly incriminates me so much more than Snix?

You claim I was buddying up on Day 1, by voting hohum when he votes for Toro. That's not why I voted for him though, his town play was terrible, another fact that SNIX AGREED UPON.

So what exactly do you have that makes me more incriminated than Snix, who voted for your confirmed townie? Absolutely nothing, I'm calling this epic buddying up to town.

You tell me I was buddying up for FoSing him yet you're voting me over him for no reason. That buddying up part that you claim to have seen? I said it because we're friends in real life.

As for my relationship with Toro at the moment, he was the only person to make a legitimate attempt at scumhunting on Day 1, of course I was hesitant to question him. And now I believe he's cop because his claim makes sense over yours, why would I accuse him?

Now its possible that Snix's town play is better than mine, in fact, highly likely since he's worlds more experienced and introduced me to this game.

Still, I wouldn't know if that were the case because you haven't posted any case on me.

@ NETLAVA
You use the reasoning:

Also, EL was accusing me of "pushing" the hohum case. Funny thing is, EL was the one pushing the case.

Except you were and so was Snix...Hohum's play was terrible. You were pushing it from the outside, Yankee (the cop you believe) even said he investigated you and you even made a disclaimer about not forcing tunnelvision.

Yeah, I don't think scum would bother coming out and clearing me, plus Toro + EL makes the most sense.

Except that you accuse me of buddying up to Snix, how is that not a legitimate scum tactic if you think I'm scum for doing it?

It was a safe cop claim move on his part, the doc is dead and if he were scum he'd know you were town. Unless you're his partner, then it does him even more good because if people believed his claim then you'd be good to go and win.

I'm done holding off if you feel ready to accuse me with that much certainty without even posting a legitimate case Yankee.

Vote: Yankee

[Eldritch Lord]

I understand your anger Yankee, I'm a little worked up right now too.

WIFOM, maybe thats what he wanted you to think, maybe he thought the case on me would go nowhere fast and it would be faster to claim against you since your initial claim was a really bad play to begin with (no offense, its hard claiming cop for the first time, I just got killed as cop in Mini 848 -- but even noobiness considered, I don't think you would've claimed if you were really cop).

Beyond this, you have to keep in mind, you were PRETTY SURE I was scum

before

Toro claimed, and used hohum as part of your backup.

(This is worthless because Hohum's Day 1 play is worthless and he called EL+Snix, which you seem to be conceding is wrong today.)

Claiming when you only have a confirmed innocent nowhere near a lynch is just not a good play, Yankee -- it seems a lot like buddying up. Toro could've thought the same thing.

I mean, we're even left with a very unlikely theoretical here, it might be that neither of you are cop and Toro is trying to save the real cop from claiming. (Note I don't think this is likely AT ALL, I'm fairly certain Toro is the real cop just from claim timing and play)

I see distancing between Netlava and you on Day 1 and buddying up on Day 2. Since it won't apply to either of you if you're really both scum, this point is really @ Snix. Netlava doesn't join the wagon and you don't vote, but neither of you does anything to discourage it or call legitimate cases on anyone else (between a jab at Netlava from you, which isn't followed up by a vote) and Netlava actually encourages it.

Also, Netlava set me at L-1 on Day 1 and pulled off when it was mentioned, I think this is relevant now.

[Eldritch Lord]

Lastly, let's end with this gem from Toro:

Eldritch by not voting you're also saying that you're not hammering your scumbuddy.

Hmm... what could that possibly mean?

Pointless, if I were voting for him then I'd just be bussing. Easy point for you to manipulate.

[Eldritch Lord]

Pointless, if I were voting for him then I'd just be bussing. Easy point for you to manipulate.

If you were voting for him, it'd be bussing. So by not voting for him, you're not bussing. Either way, both statements imply that you are Toro's scumpartner.

Translation: I can twist the situation either way.

That's exactly what I was saying.

[Eldritch Lord]

Pointless, if I were voting for him then I'd just be bussing.

If you were voting for him, you would normally be either voting scum or mislynching town. However, your quote suggests that you are Toro's scumpartner because you call it "bussing."

Are you daft? I'm saying that you would call it bussing. Not that I would.

If I voted for Toro, it'd 99% likely be voting for Cop.

[Eldritch Lord]

The quote, directed at EL, says:

Eldritch by not voting you're also saying that you're not hammering your scumbuddy.

It assumes EL has a scumbuddy, and that by him not voting, he's not going to hammer him. At that time, the only player in a position to be hammered was Toro. So, the quote is saying that EL chose not to hammer Toro, his scumbuddy.

I believe this is from the perspective that he were scum. You aren't very good at managing perspectives, are you?

[Eldritch Lord]

Perspective continuity seems to be a huge issue for your playstyle Netlava. I have yet to see substantial casebuilding on your part, you think you can afford to be lazy because you're "confirmed" vanilla?

Think again.

[Eldritch Lord]

Lol, why bother with 2 confirmed scum trying to twist my words.

If any townies have any questions, feel free to ask.

Confirmed scum, you haven't a case, how ON EARTH, am I confirmed scum?

You haven't even posted why you believe Yankee's claim over Toro's.

[Eldritch Lord]

EBWOP:

Confirmed scum, you haven't even posted a case,

HOW ON EARTH, am I confirmed scum?

[Eldritch Lord]

Indeed.

Double EBWOP:

Confirmed scum

, you haven't even posted a real case,

HOW ON EARTH

, am I confirmed scum?

[Eldritch Lord]

No, think about it, Snix.

NK leaves us at 4. Then the two scum vote for town and the town vote for scum. After the NK it would be pretty clear who is town and who isn't. So then it'd boil down to who voted first.

[Eldritch Lord]

However, I still think I'll be on before anyone else. If 235 is the case Snix, should I still vote no lynch?

[Eldritch Lord]

I think Netlava and Yankee are afraid of the No Lynch and that Netlava is wrong. Snix's logic makes sense, town would still have a shot of winning in the game.

[Eldritch Lord]

Yeah I'm gonna go ahead and throw it all in with Snix's gambit. His logic makes a lot more sense and I'm confident I can vote before Yankee and Netlava since their internet time seems to be severely limited.

Unvote

Vote: No Lynch

[Eldritch Lord]

What do you mean? Mexican standoff?

[Eldritch Lord]

Yeah, but who wins a mexican standoff? Is it a tie? And why are you so late to make this point? /facepalm

[Eldritch Lord]

Yeah, wiki's giving me nothing on mexican standoff.

[Eldritch Lord]

Netlava, your constant refreshing has not served to in any way advance town's objectives -- your casebuilding has been non-existent and mediocre when present.

I guarantee you that I would vote yankee first, and when he flips scum you will probably be next.

[Eldritch Lord]

It would have been brilliant if Snix unvoted in between your vote and Toro's.

Well if Toro and I were scum, you could have done the exact same thing the whole time.

[Eldritch Lord]

Good call Toro, I wanted to target Netlava!

Haha, Toro really won us an easy game there. Claimed at the right time and made it believable and chose the right NK.

Hohum's play wasn't good at all and he seems to fail to understand that only half the game is discovering scum and the other half is convincing others that those people are scum. So if he comes back with the "I told you so," attitude, it will be completely invalid. He made this a really easy scum victory.

There's really no one to blame but him--I won't be playing with him from now on.

It does though, because if he's scum and waiting for my vote it means he wants it to be my own logic that kills town[...]It matters a lot when EL is involved.

And it WAS!

The only way I could be wrong is if EL and Toro are scum (which I don't believe because EL may know me but I don't think he knows me that well. And if he does this game was lost from the get go)

Snix, sorry my friend, but I

do

know you that well, and you

did

lose from the get go. Heheh, you will

not

hear the end of this.

[Eldritch Lord]

We were prepared for the cop claim, but I didn't really think it would happen. Yankee kind of fucked himself on that one.

It really all comes down to Day 1 though, hohum ended this game before it started.

[Eldritch Lord]

I was kind of disappointing to get night killed. Why did you end up choosing me?
This game would have been a lot better if hohum had been a bit more mature. Well played El, were you trying to get him to quit?

Not quit, but he had proven emotionally unstable in the last game I'd played with him. He has a huge ego too, as evidenced by his willingness to quit just to prove himself "right." I was trying to get him so worked up that he'd slip up like crazy. The self-hammer was a nice bonus.

We ended up choosing you because you were the lurker, it was designed to create WIFOM arguments against Netlava too on Day 1, but that was ruined by Yankee's claim.

@Yankee
I don't think he understood that our win condition left us as the victor in ties. IRL games I've been in have gone to ties in similar situations before.

@Netlava
Massclaim on Day 1 should definitely not be initiated by a cop with nothing but a confirmed innocent.

[Eldritch Lord]

It probably would have served you better to just wait and see how the day went before claiming cop. IDK though, its all theoretical now.

[Eldritch Lord]

That's usually the standard moderator decision for online mafia Yankee. -- I'd consider it common knowledge.