Open 175 - Picking Simplicity (Game Over)

[yabbaguy]

/hi

Wow, I think know quite a few people on the list.

[yabbaguy]

@Nikanor-22: You, dramonic, Scott (he replaced out... like a Yankees fan ), Flava Flave, and I've run into 12KB and zwet from elsewhere.

My only rule: Don't do bullshit gambits, or bullshit in general. Your bullshit will be discarded, or you will be discarded for bullshitting.

...

What? Can't a grandpa let his guttermouth run loose once in a while?

[yabbaguy]

I've seen other games go down due to bad gambits just through my readthroughs. They're just pointless and mean nothing, and everyone gets pissed later.

I'm not talking about your inhibited docclaim from our last endeavor, that's not a gambit. Don't worry.

[yabbaguy]

Voting people you like/recognize = fail reason even for a random vote. >_>

[yabbaguy]

@Nik-69: In this case, the lack thereof. If it isn't plainly obvious, despite two goddamned Yankees fans in this house, I haven't voted either. That's probably a big tip-off that I don't want to play that random voting game today.

On multiple counts, Red Sox Nation isn't playing any games anymore.

[yabbaguy]

Probing questions for the lulz? Love it.

H_H starts the game in the plus column.

[yabbaguy]

Scumpoints for the avatar haters.

I don't know what the hell Flava-85's up to.

[yabbaguy]

@Blast-92: Tongue emotes = joke.

[yabbaguy]

I'm gonna play an actual vote.

Vote: Blastinus

I'm not sure what's up, but he's a bit antsy and overreactive to some things. It sounds borderline defensive, 87 + 92 for some examples of this. Either that, or he just has a poor sense of humor. Can't tell.

[yabbaguy]

Cool. PM semioldguy and make sure he says "WarWound is replacing" in thread before you post anything else, though.

[yabbaguy]

Nik-123's vote has me on edge. I can't quite put a finger on it, but it feels... opportunistic perhaps? Intervening to say "I agree" feels strange.

[yabbaguy]

Anybody have a good way of telling when zwet's play is just anti-town as opposed to scummy? I've never been able to decipher his gameplay after all this time.

[yabbaguy]

yagg

Okay... maybe that avatar really

does

blind people. O.O

I'll analyze the Nik-wagon after I do French HW.

[yabbaguy]

@CC-160: EVERYONE is going to argue with you on that.

[yabbaguy]

The only thing that really fascinates me is the one guy who *didn't* hop on the wagon, Toro. Post 155 declares his stance on Nikanor, but he refuses to hop on. His reasons aren't really that good either, with him having to no less ALTER a word.

That said, I find it interesting how Nik's really screwing around this game, with an emote practically every first line he posts.

If he's scum, maybe he's just chilling out because he doesn't have to do any work, he just has to play us like a cheap fiddle. If he's town, maybe the party-like atmosphere (for a severe lack of a better word) of a large game is getting to his head, and he's phased out of it already.

I'm leaning towards the former, but I'm not gonna get impulsive and wagon. Impulsivity leads to tunnelvisioning, which leads to failure.

I can't quite put my finger on Blastinus either what makes him stick out, but in the meantime, I'll chill out for a sec.

Unvote

@War-168: Do you want to "pwn" him?

[yabbaguy]

WarWound, I will only say this once, but I think you'd be better off swapping this game out in favor of a Newbie game. At bear minimum, supplement this game with a Newbie game.

Go to the Queue forum and click on the Newbie Game sticky and just say "/in for next". That's how you should sign up for all future games, as well.

I say this only because your sense of arguing and awareness in our style of Mafia could use some pointers. You'd also benefit from the games being half the size of this. (and 20 is dizzying even for some seasoned members on here). Just my thoughts, if you think you're all right, or I'm missing something, you don't have to. I won't think any less of you if you take my advice and quit, though.

[yabbaguy]

Active

lurking, zwet. Come on, you know this.

More thoughts later.

[yabbaguy]

@Iguana-209: WarWound def. seems town. I like it when people are candid like that.

Scott and Flave, I'm not going to buy into yet. Flava's first vote got my attention probably due to its abrupt nature, so I'm still watching him. Scott... no idea. Not definitive.

---

Toro is actively lurking practically to the same degree 12KB is, and if anything, tilts scummier than 12KB. Nikanor still remains a target right now, though. However, I might have to meta-dive to prove or squash the theory that Nik's screwing around is a sign of scum apathy.

Head_Honcho, I'm also going to watch, because I think he may be trying to take advantage of a VI (zwet) here. Watch these sorts of people who immediately seize the opportunity on what's merely a poor scumhunting technique.

(Watch zwet come on just to say he's insulted I called him a VI.)

[yabbaguy]

@WW-218: You're new, not stupid. You need GAMES and GAMES of incompetence to get the rank of being an incompetent player.

@Pom-217: Let's note the 12KB wagon for future reference, dependent on if and what 12KB flips. I wonder if scum's pushing it a bit more than it should be, ie: beyond its bounds.

[yabbaguy]

Still here. I'll post later.

[yabbaguy]

Toro, zwet, dram, and WW are poor contributors to this game in general out of all the people actively posting. Not a fan of that.

@Iguana-230: Okay, I'll buy that. I don't know about having vig confidence there, but at least it's irrelevant this game.

HH-232 I think is tunneling on 12KB, however. He seems to only put mention of 12KB's lurker problems when there are other issues about.

@Col-236: Any noticeable meta differences upon looking between the games?

foilist-239 echoes my sentiments exactly in terms of the lurking problem.

@dram-240: More elaboration, please.

I'll have to investigate the Nik-Blastinus love connection later.

@Pom-252: Not "liking", Nikanor? Weird wording...

Another thing on my to-do list, meta-dive. I can't quite put my finger on it, but something about this post irks me and just doesn't seem pro-town.

Flave-253 is basically playing The Lightining Round. Today's question: how many scummy cases and random questions can be thrown out there in the span of five minutes?

Not sure how to take that alignment-wise. It may just be null laziness, but that doesn't make me happy either way.

@Flave-regarding your question: Your vote was in very abrupt nature, relying on very RVS tells, possibly just going after people as fast as possible. The fact that your current mentality seems to be just lashing out at random people with single lines of evidence doesn't sit well with me.

---

That's all I got for now. Still juggling thoughts in my head... this is more dizzying to watch than the NYSE trading floor.

[yabbaguy]

also im afraid to scum hunt, i dont want to make a valid point against a perason then get him lynch and then hes a townie :/

But, thing is, if you're at least making legitimate points against a person and get them lynched, even if they flip the wrong way, at least you can say to yourself (or to any suspicious parties) that you had legitimate reasoning.

NOT scumhunting is anti-town.

@Hyl-305: I'm frustrated in general at the fact that four players aren't really contributing much to the game. That's not so much an alignment indicator (yet) as it is just a personal irk I'm having right now.

In the case of Pom, that's how she phrases her vote on Nikanor, "I don't like him." In terms of actual scumhunting, I'm not sure why you don't "like" a scum suspect emerging, heck, you should be thankful you have a lead. Not a standalone scumtell, but it's not really the most logical reason for voting either.

EBWOP on the other quote: other

lurker

issues about.

I'll try to use actual parts of names ("Honcho" for "HH", "Flava" for "FF", etc. ) in the future. I partially did it last post.

[yabbaguy]

@Toro: Who's on your suspect list right now?

Also... I'd like you to explain your rationale for why your posts have one line or one argument in them in a game where there are a slew of posts going at 100 MPH which bringing up multiple points and engage in nuanced debates. Where the hell are you?

@zwet: Same questions.

[yabbaguy]

@Honcho-329: First off, more to everyone, I miss questions sometimes. That's a habitual weakness of mine, and I usually catch it the second time if you remind me.

Secondly, the word scummy was neither said nor implied in the post in question. I'm in another game (ongoing at present) where we've had two lynches take place on apparent VIs, and I'm certain they were scum-driven. That's why I immediately got wary of you, who's been around longer than zwet, accused him over something that's just in his meta.

If he's scum, I'm waiting for a real tell.

@Flave-330: Most of the questions or statements, to me, were based on mere parts of quotes, and really have no thought or reason to them. That's not the sort of "active questioning" I had in mind.

@zwet-333: And why?

[yabbaguy]

@Flave-330:

So you don't like my playstyle. k.

I didn't say I *didn't like you*, I said that I think you're *scummy* for this. The difference has been established.

@SpyreX-346: I'm gonna side with Hyl on this one, I think there are certain aspects and logic to his scumlist that I think you're merely misunderstanding. One example, can dislike someone's vote even if it's on supposed scum because perhaps the vote was a half-assed scum-distancing vote, referencing the 12KB one.

@Hyl: The only person wildly out of place on your list, to me, is Flave. Why town? Do you think I'm going down the wrong road?

[yabbaguy]

I *still* adamantly believe that WarWound is newbtown with a social disorder (which explains a lot of how he posts), and I adamantly refuse to hop on his bandwagon. We must never forget past reasoning if there's no reason that it should be deemed obsolete, and right now, I don't see why we should drop our town reads on WarWound all of a sudden.

Iguana tilts scummy now... but again... I'm struggling here putting a finger on it. I'm legitimately frustrated that I'm not able to put my thoughts into words here. Perhaps it's the defensiveness or sarcasm, but ugh, I can't tell.

Interesting how she calls WarWound pro-town...

Its too bad WW is town given his contribution level, but he is town. I would take lurky town over active unknown in an endgame.

...if scum, sounds less like a defending a scumbuddy as much as doing the town a favor by declaring pro-town.

Toro and Flave tilt pro-town now for general good reasoning as of late.

My mind's fried right now.

[yabbaguy]

cum

Just like my s cum hunting, I call it as I see it.

[yabbaguy]

...sorry WW, I misread that you mentioned that "most people" had down syndrome, and forgot that you didn't specifically mention it.

That was bad of me... *headdesk*

@Anti-400: A joke. Mostly.

[yabbaguy]

@Honcho-438: Defending zwet is not a priority for me at all. The important thing is that one recognizes that he could be scummy (not at present), and you have to be aware of the reasoning that someone uses to hop on a wagon. As I recall, one of your BIG reasons was that zwet was active lurking. The two are synonymous if you know anything.

How much experience do you have with zwet?

@skitzer-445:

en la isolacion

Quoi?

Again, meta has a lot to do with it. Kind of like what I'm getting off of these reads with Nikanor, I have to remind myself continually that Nik's going to screw around a lot no matter what game he's in, and that in itself isn't scummy. He's definitely shortposting a lot, but so am I. Some of his posts are just nothing but a joke... which is interesting, but I'll have to look into that later.

I hate posts like Col-453. That tone of voice "Nope, wrong, way to _____, let's not _____" is poor scumhunting to me, because to me, it's an alarm siren that the person's in danger of tunnelvisioning.

Sometimes scummy. Not leaning towards one or the other right now. Often, I unconsciously tend to associate scummy, which is why I encourage everyone to NOT use this sort of mockery methodry of scumhunting, as it's distracting and makes you look like a moron/scum even if you're right/town.

Logical and level-headed is the way to go. It's sub-par to think otherwise.

---

I feel stupid that there are 5 scum (effectively) in this game and I can't really find one of them at present.

[yabbaguy]

On second thought-

Re-Vote: Nikanor

He's just screwing around/active lurking so much that it's scummy to me. It's not just "smiley" counts, he'll do that any day. It's just that a lot of his posts contribute nothing to the game.

I'll switch before deadline as necessary. All those who haven't voted yet absolutely must right now.

I'm also going to go out on a limb and say that mod sympathy is a scumtell. In games with Scum QTs, the Mafia get more communication with the mod than anybody else, and thus sort of bond with him on a personal level. I think a sort of sympathetic connection develops between scum and mod, so Nik feeling bad for him is a personal scumtell to me.

I speculate a lot. There's a difference between this and crap cases, the latter of which is scummy.

@semioldguy

: On account of the large number of replacements needed for this game, I request a deadline extension.

[yabbaguy]

@self: "Dammit, Greg, you're an idiot! He's probably one of the most active players in the game with his posting levels!

Unvote, Vote: Antihero

This game currently has me frustrated. I'm gonna make sure I win one way or another, but I'm frustrated trying to pick everyone's posts apart. Usually the way I operate is to analyze connections between people, but in a large game, at least in the preliminary stages, that's extremely difficult. Flip a few people over and give me a few days and I'll have a better idea.

My vote's on AH because the case on him seems the most sound based on what I've seen from others. I have no idea, though.

[yabbaguy]

• I don't know.

• This game currently has me frustrated.

• give me a few days and I'll have a better idea.

[yabbaguy]

@Toro-473: I was wrong on the first point, and my second point is speculative, so it collapsed when the first point went away.

You need to think for yourself for a sec here. My vote-hopping is a sign of candidness and honesty, a pro-town thing. And I've repeatedly stated that I'm in a swingy sort of state right now, I don't know where everyone's at, and I don't plan on being anywhere near that point soon. It's my first large game, so seeing everything whizzing at 100 MPH is screwing me up here. To me, I think you're just thinking "oh, he's obv-hopping with his vote. Scum." Stop staring at the Wiki and play THIS game.

[yabbaguy]

Unvote, Vote: Iguana

Rationale coming later.

[yabbaguy]

Again, weaker than I want it to be, but sure as hell better than AH. Here's why:

-Voted in three posts in a row at the outset of the game (albeit one random). How can she discard cases that fast?
-despite 12KB being her adamant case at first, has now all but abandonned it. Not once mentioning Antihero, especially since at least one other player is noticing scumtells in his posts, is an alarm that she's lazily slipping off it while nobody's looking.
-First time she posts scumlist, appears thrown together and offers no rationale behind most of her suspects. This shouldn't be seen as pro-town at all.
-is trying to push a lynch merely of someone who's anti-town. That's taking advantage of someone who just doesn't play well. I see no outright scumtells in that post. This is the sort of thing I brought up with Honcho, we need to see actual scumtells. Insisting that being a poor player is scummy is scummy in itself.
-consistently asserted at one point "WarWound is town". It didn't sound so much like she had evidence for it so much as she knew already from a scum position. Granted, this diminishes with a known SK in play, but it still feels like she's feeding concrete information to us that she knows of already.

Zwets and Pom, please explain votes further please.

[yabbaguy]

@Iguana: I've seen *nothing* that says scummy from zwet, and I must've missed your cases that indicate otherwise. SpyreX, same to you. You've basically highlighted the active lurking, which is consistent with his play.

The "helping the town" bit is a speculative tell. However, something in me would think that the scum kind of helps out the town by just sort of gently saying "oh yeah, he's obvtown", but it's not necessarily

based on seeing actual play

, just seeing that he's floundering was enough. That's what I based it off of.

Posting a random scumlist with no basis behind the players at the time (so player-by-player analysis (PLBPLA) isn't going to help me now) was not scumhunting to me. It's not scummy, per se, but it's not scumhunting either since you're basically just randomly putting people down. I thought it was a little too soon to be putting suspects down in your tiers with only a few posts from each.

AH was a mistake. I also missed your "random wagoning" bit.

@zwet-525: You voted before I posted the rationale. How can you say that you voted me for posting weak rationale that I never had down?

Am I *scummy*, zwet? I'm anti-town as hell today, but I also sure as hell don't think I deserve a vote.

[yabbaguy]

I really, really don't see the contradiction between the two posts. Are we finding information lynches scummy? Help me out here.

[yabbaguy]

@Honcho-539: Basically, you're wrong if you think my priority was to protect zwet completely. I felt your accusations were off the mark.

@Iguana-541:

Why is it that I make a case and people wagon up the player on mostly unrelated things?

Doing that is scummy to me, so I'm intrigued. Anybody in particular you see doing this?

[yabbaguy]

Iguana, once again, my cases have been half-assed all game. If you're still operating on the definition that everyone should be an idealistic pro-town player, then you are sorely mistaken. And I've stated this so many fucking times already, do you not believe me?

I would've rather you posted why WW was town at the beginning, when he was doing nothing. If you have any tells from before, please tell me.

And I think it's too time-consuming to look for everyone's vote on AH/12KB, I'm not gonna do that. I'd rather go off observations you have off-hand, which you hinted at having, but if you don't have any, never mind. I'm just too busy to do the looking right now.

[yabbaguy]

@zwet-561: Not a defense. Why are they wrong to suggest you're self-contradicting?

And please explain your vote on me.

[yabbaguy]

Because I'm not. And you made a very scummy vote.

Lack of defense is scummy.

Unvote, Vote: zwetschenwasser

I'm completely satisfied now.

[yabbaguy]

Policy lynch is another word entirely, btw. I think confusion stemmed out of that.

[yabbaguy]

Toro, your scumhunting methods are extremely ineffective. Either accuse WarWound directly and force him to respond or clam it. Pick one.

[yabbaguy]

First off, anti-town reads inherently have a scum tilt on it. Obviously, it gives way to any outright scum suspects (which there were none really) at the time, but understand that at no point I ever read him as town. So this "wondrous" turnaround is a hyperbole. I absolutely loathe hyperboles. People who decide to use exaggerated propaganda (a WONDROUS turnaround) in their posts are ridiculous because it's not logic, it's manipulation (one can call it advertising... but that's what advertising does, too). Not the town's job to manipulate town.

I gave a reason, so it's not OMGUS. You're overusing the acronym as well.

I no less just explained above my vote that he refused to defend against my case or explain anything. That's nothing but his fault if I decide to vote him for being scummy at this moment, because his OMGUSing me (which I *can* assume because he hasn't provided true reasoning for why I'm scummy) and refusal to explain further his self-contradiction leads me to believe that my interpretations are correct.

1-2 players voting Zwet are scum. (Iguana, Spy, Pom, Blast, War, Yabba). In order of liklieness: Pom, Yabba, Spy, War, Iguana, Blast.

Regardless of alignment? I'd totally agree with the general format of this hypothesis in general if he flips town, but it starts to get screwed up if we're right and he flips scum and SK since the former you're really looking for distancing cases and SK, well, you can't say they weren't scumhunting. I can elaborate further on that if you're not convinced.

Do you actually think I'm scummy Flave, or is this merely comparative? I haven't seen *any* mention to you calling me scum.

@Grimmy: Why do you think AH is scummy?

---

I'm less busy now. I think I'm starting to get my way around this game, but just to make sure, I'll make this my only one.

Still waiting on actual replies from zwet. A lot of people seem to be re-reading too, looking forward to it.

[yabbaguy]

@Pom-587: I agree with it.

...I'm not quite sure what you're looking for here.

[yabbaguy]

Brosius, I'm construing you as an active lurker right now. Please convince me otherwise.

WarWound-597 + 599 is now outright scummy. Gloating about merely surviving the game and then trying to drag me down with him over a REALLY random thing is not something to be overlooked.

The fact that zwets is going after WarWound is screwing me up a bit, but there are probably multiple explanations for that.

[yabbaguy]

Just don't be too slow, Yankee. I know Macs can be like that.

[yabbaguy]

@Scott: bigger posts please. You are active lurking.

@WarWound-627: Don't say sorry, do sorry.

@SpyreX-628: I also don't want WW lynched yet, but this deserves some mention:

ha its funny none take notice of toro's accusations against me , I find it to be humorous.

Playing just to survive is scummy, usually. Maybe it could just be a screwy concept of ideals on how to play the game, though... but the more I serve myself that "he's just a newbie" WIFOM, the more I'm beginning to doubt it.

[yabbaguy]

You all make me laugh.

Note that, folks. If zwet flips Mafia (specifically!), I think zwet is oddly trying to take the pressure off a fellow scumbuddy and is now *trying* to get himself hung with that post. I naturally assume that apparent sabotage is done with their faction's best interest in mind. Continue to lynch zwet, but I think that's an indicator that one of our prior wagons that had steam might be right.

If he flips town... well... zwet played like an anti-town dumbass anyways. SK, well yay, but none of the above means anything in that case, either.

Blastinus, Toro, Flava Flave, Head_Honcho, skitzer, Antihero, Grimmy and ZazieR have all been prodded.

Large games are anti-town for this very reason.

[yabbaguy]

I'm operating on the assumption that "shot" = mafia and "choked" = SK. I don't think that's quite useful info yet... but I'll have a look.

Dramonic voted for 12KB and Iguana... but cited "buddying" as a reason for the latter, so I don't think he leads us much of anywhere, unfortunately.

Scott, on the other hand, slammed a vote on Col at some point, and prior had a case on 12KB. Or maybe a powerrole vibe in general was picked up by Mafia, but I thought for sure active lurking made him tilt scum, so I'm fascinated why Mafia would pick him off there.

[yabbaguy]

Nikanor, if you say something along the lines of "Yabbaguy, you are scummy for _____," that would be the first time all game anyone has done that, to my recollection.

So, explain please.

[yabbaguy]

He tried to white knight zwet with a bunch of nonsense

You can't just toss that statement out without justifying it.

[yabbaguy]

Vote: Abandon Game

This game is out of control right now in terms of player inactivity. This isn't even fair to town anymore.

[yabbaguy]

The number of replacements, but also the number of flakers right now. I could theoretically flesh out a list of 10+ questions to give the players some baby steps to come back into the game, but there's absolutely no reason for it. Everyone has seen enough to have something to say at this point, and yet everyone is making the choice (loose term in some cases) to flake and replace out.

I dunno. I think everyone's either stopped caring ages ago, or just can't keep up.

[yabbaguy]

Anti-town behavior is exactly what we need right now. I approve.

[yabbaguy]

@Miche-730: Your case includes points on the following, and I don't understand why these are deemed a scumtell.

-Expressing confusion over how to interpret an anti-town player. To me, you interpret this as me saying "He's a hopeless case, let's just get him out of the way." However, this was said with no intention of having zwet lynched.
-Believing anti-town players innocent until proven guilty. Yes, I absolutely took advantage of guilty proof in the later stages of the Day, but this does not necessarily correlate with scum behavior. That's what I thought initially when I made posts to zwet trying to get him to act more pro-town. Then when the scumslip was brought up, I simply made the jump from anti-town to scum. It's completely normal.
-Me waiting for "a good moment" to wagon. It is a townie's duty to look for players who look like they are on the edge of going scummy (hence the IGMEOY acronym, which is basically implicit in all my prior posts), and then once identifying a scumtell, voting for them. It's not scum opportunism.
-Asking to clarify a scumtell. It is a townie's job to seek information and clarification when necessary. Why am I not allowed as town to act upon information once it is clarified?

My fault for hypocritically misusing the OMGUS acronym, but that's not scummy, that's just me being forgetful.

I have no comment on the Scott Brosius matter. I wasn't trying to distance at all here, and that's really all I can say at this point. A faint possibility of scum trying to set me up here as next-in-line comes to mind, however.

Voting to abandon the game, however, is your biggest stretch in the whole case. I said that because I felt, as town, that this game was way too unfair for *us*, and that I'd rather not complete the game under these horrifically difficult pretenses.

---

I think ultimately it boils down to a point of scum opportunism vs. townie scumhunting. I, granted, did not come up with any original proof because I was thoroughly lost in the whole clutter of the game, so I decided to simply go along with what others were saying. Yes, I'm a bandwagonner. I made the mistake as town of not thinking for myself. And I made a solemn promise D1 which I'm planning to keep that I will try to think for myself.

I'm sorry I blindly followed. But it's not scummy.

[yabbaguy]

Michel:

Because there is someone scummier around. Someone who, like Iguana, has been hoping for a zwet lynch from the beginning...

This sounds like Don LaFontaine with a propaganda-esque first sentence. Propaganda's the work of scum because it's the very thing they do, manipulation. Why did you decide to throw that in?

You also refuse to acknowledge my pro-town explanation without actually contradicting it. He just merely piggybacks on his initial points "But I still believe X,Y,Z." Do you deny that my points are actually equally plausible? I think it's another situation of innocent-until-proven-guilty.

@Nikanor: I think it's actually a great scum tactic to go after someone who's coming under fire and try to work up a wagon on them. Why do you think it's extremely implausible?

@SpyreX: Do you get emotionally passionate about Mafia in general? The fact that all your posts are riddled with emotes and emotions has me a bit on edge, like you're almost joking around.

Also:

Although I'm not sure what I think about [Iguana's] mod question considering what we've seen happen. I'd REALLY rather it not be answered in any fashion personally.

Why?

[yabbaguy]

Vote: StrangerCoug

for not making any attempt to look up the answer himself.

...

Unvote

[yabbaguy]

It's a good thing you unvoted me in the exact same post, because you're accusing me of irrelevant laziness in this post.

...that's basically how I random vote in the late game. That's your cue to stop taking it seriously.

persay

"Per se," Iguana.

@Michel:

Because I wanted to explain why I didn't vote Iguana even though I have strong suspicions about her.

Not really the question so much as why you decided to sugarcoat that topic sentence. It sounds like unnecessary dramatics, which isn't scumhunting to me.

The town can't afford to use an innocent-until-proven-guilty reasoning.

Ever? I completely disagree with this. Look, people are exposing logical contradictions right now. That's guilty evidence, not a crapshoot.

I still believe you owe an explanation as to why one explanation of my attitude towards zwet is more plausible than the other. I don't think you've explained how I was opportunistic in any way, or making an unexpected reverse shift with my vantage. What in my posts tips you one way or the other? Or is it some track record that exists that you've observed over time?

[yabbaguy]

I'm so fucking livid. I don't even feel like putting nearly all my points and post # refs back, because I had a nice post, and then I hit the goddamned X button on my browser.

@Nikanor: How would the scenario of scum targetting me be more obvoius? Admittedly, Michel slides back into the town column for me, so the theory dwindles a bit, but how would that be the case?

@Michel: Basically, all it boils down to is that you believe that my fencesitting is actually scum just waiting to pounce when I had the chance. However, it really was just me being speculative on zwet throughout, and yes, I was waiting for him to slip up so that he could be exposed as scum. When it came, I jumped on it.

@SpyreX: What were you hoping to gain from the logic debate?

@ClergyMan: You don't actually mention where the logic debate is headed. Do you think SpyreX is actually trying to find scum in Michel, or vice versa?

@Kreriov: Yeah, it's true, guilty proof isn't really 100% in the case of D1, for sure, otherwise zwet would've flipped scum with "concrete" evidence. Part of what spawned the statement was that I initially thought SpyreX's debate was trying to actually probe Michel's alignment. ClergyMan's throwing that into question (I think?) but that's what I consider proof, being shown to have logical inconsitencies.

@Coug: I also find the reasoning for your voting crappy. I don't know whether it's actually scum opportunism or that you're just completely tossing the issue of meta out of the picture. Nikanor, he's kinda screwing around, but that does make him scum, or is it just consistent with his meta of being screwy Nikanor? WarWound, yes, he's been making shit attacks all game, but do you think he was actually capable as opposed to just being stupid? And how about Michel, who you claim had a logical inconsistency. That's nice. Why is he scummy?

Good, I have my points down on the page again. I'm gonna hit Submit, and then stop typing. I'm so mad right now I lost my pristine post.

[yabbaguy]

I need to re-read later. I was about to post a list of who I want wagonned, but then realized I'm not passionate about any of my hitlist candidates. I need to reassess. Interaction scumhunting is so much harder in a large game...

I'm deliberating a policy vote on the anti-town who's basically thrown the white flag, but y'know... they can flip town, too. It's not like saber was under fire for anything, either. Let's fix that.

@saber: What gives with the selfvoting? Are you still trying to win?

[yabbaguy]

[yabbaguy]

SpyreX, this case is rubbish. First off, fencesitting is not scummy. Having reasonable doubts is town. Why is it unacceptable for someone to not have a read on a person, especially with a technical novelty such as saber's play?

If anything, I think somebody or some people are lazywagonning on saber. I adamantly believe saber's town right now. If he flips scum, fuck me, but I think this time it's just him doing a bullshit gambit. Discard the bullshit. Don't discard him for bullshitting.

Calling the defeatism false, which it's not, but in any event, it's not scummy.

[yabbaguy]

I think saber's town.

And what is this rubbish about this avoiding being called out as a lurker stuff? This sounds highly convoluted, and if somebody's merely looking for lurker lynches anyway, they've got problems.

Kreriov tilts scummy.

[yabbaguy]

I need to re-sig this.

[yabbaguy]

However, let's at least realize that while a novelty for sure in games in general, it's by no means new tactics for saberwolf. He gambits a lot, he's hated by some for it, but of course, he's not always scum doing it.

Bunch of meta WIFOM. I therefore opt to discard this particular shenanigan as null. Of course, he's on igg-mi-oi status now, but for now, I'm not persuaded.

[yabbaguy]

*gasp* That wasn't a real scumclaim?

NO WAY

Medic!

Look, I'm prob. gonna lose this battle, but I'm telling ya. I believe saber. He clearly doesn't understand what defending is, but I want every man and woman in the room to note my defense of saber. Yes please utter the very phrase that I hate the most, "Defense of saber noted." This is completely play to his meta and nothing more, and he's behaving just like his town self IMO.

[yabbaguy]

It's not selfishly autoclearing, I just don't want a townie lynched.

[yabbaguy]

given a PM I just recieved

From?

sometimes I need to switch it up and do stupid ones as well as strategic ones.

I don't see any strategic benefits to this. Theory debate time?

[yabbaguy]

Does that mean that he does not make these obviously stupid plays as scum?

Really, null. Not noticing any other scumtells, I say town, therefore. Skitzer called it a towntell which is gutsy maneuvering, though.

[yabbaguy]

If you are its a good thing you got banned from joining games

Didn't see this.

[yabbaguy]

Reads on everyone.

Not scummy = "not" for readability, in addition to * and ? markings. Reads are still a bit iffy.

SCUMMY?
* Nikanor >>> scummy
Honcho >>> not
Blastinus >>> not
skitzer >>> not
? Kreriov >>> possibly?
SerialClergyMan >>> not
Col.Calthart >>> not
? Toro >>> possibly?
? hohum >>> possibly?
* StrangerCoug >>> scummy
SpyreX >>> not
? Grimmy >>> possibly?
* Iguana >>> scummy

Nikanor is scummy because he's been active lurking all game. Arguably, something about his meta is to be said here, but the weird fact is that he's generally being a mostly unhelpful scumhunter. I can identify quite a few questions that look like scumhunting, but actually serve no purpose. Seeing as lurking dilutes a tell of any sort, it's a slight tilt.

Honcho isn't scummy from what I can see, but is also lurking a hell of a lot between V/LA and whatever. Dilutes the tell a bit.

Blastinus- likewise... town-seeming, but has been a motionless blob for some time now.

Skitzer was going to get a speculative read for me, but seeing as resistance of a bad wagon is pro-town generally (No evidence that he's using concrete information), and his general behavior has lined up with pro-town play, I wouldn't opt for him.

Kreriov, I mentioned a lot, seems to be using a very convoluted stream of logic, especially in his most recent posts... but maybe that's just the fact that he just decided to go on rants. Makes readability poor, which might be part of the problem. Giving up on the saber wagon... well, he didn't really justify much, but just sat and said "Oh, what a stupid gambit. Stupid, stupid, stupid." Coug, too. SpyreX, for one, is fine because he was using actual rationale to say why saber was actually "scummy" for it.

ClergyMan seemed to have brought up great points against Coug, and is pro-town overall, but now Coug's firing back. Interesting. Still think he's pro-town.

Col- boy, he's a strange one. He's claiming the same problem as I am, that he's drowning in the sea of twenty people's rants and textwalls. Generally though, I'd say he's okay.

Toro is active lurking all game. Nikanor claims it's meta, maybe so, but I wish there was more activity from him. He often shared my opinion on the issues, although my stances have been weak consistently. Generally leans town... but I'm not sure.

I'm really reminiscing on Pom when I read Pomegranate as speculative, but while her lurking on D1 she claims to be a consistent problem, I can't really vouch for it. Still gotta read closer. The fact that hohum *forgot* this game seems a town tell to me, since this game is rather uneventful since you got a non-scum role.

StrangerCoug tilts scummy a bit since he tried to push lynches on rather bad people. I agree with Nikanor, but I don't agree with Michel, WW, or saber, and I think the cases are actually not scum cases at all. He, like Kreriov, also just sat in a corner just pacing in a corner wondering how dumb saber is. Not an automatic towntell.

SpyreX has had sound logic all game, and no deception is noted.

Grimmy, well, he's been lurking forever. Wagons along with the /in crowd and is pretty mute. Stop it. The muteness... that is.

Iguana is a fan of quickwagonning, with a lot of "die die die" posts, but one thing that's interesting is that she gave one up in favor of a crapwagon (yes, reasoning was bad) on skitzer. Also voted zwet when it really wasn't appropriate, nothing scummy had come from at that time. Also getting sick of the "WW/SCM is town" shield, wondering what the motive is for this now that the wagon fell out of favor ages ago.

I come out of this thinking that Nikanor has a lot of talking to do.

Vote: Nikanor

[yabbaguy]

Did you prepare that during night?

No.

[yabbaguy]

although I'm mightly concerned with that post being TODAY instead of information last night

I have an idea... but what do you make of this? Also curious to hear what you have on Grim/Krer.

Not sure what to make of Iguana's vote on me, actually. Iguana, your last points on me were quite a few posts ago if I read them correctly, so I'm not sure what you're basing it off of.

Wheeeeeeeeee.

The worst counterargument is a lack thereof.

[yabbaguy]

Can I just point Kreriov that it's spelt "saber", not "sabre"?

Iguana claimed she's explained to Coug, but I still don't think that's the case.

[yabbaguy]

@Nik: Overall, it seems as though your "joking around" ways are how you go at scumhunting. That's probably what's irking me with your line of questions... it's not immediately transparent that they're hunting scum, or that a certain answer would rub you the wrong way.

I'll opt for an

Unvote

for now, though. The vote was more to probe you into getting into the game more, and while you're definitely behaving in bizarre fashion, I need to step back for a bit.

Like how Grimmy's hitting the accelerator now, on a first glance.

ClergyMan, personally I've been a bit busy with a sore foot of mine that's made me miserable. I haven't had time to read the cases. However, honestly, I think your pace encourages people to take the game too fast and jump to harsh conclusions. That's how saber got lynched, by people reflexively reacting to his shenanigans.

Accelerating the Day is scummy. Not that you're not there yet, but we just gotta mind that we don't take everything too fast.

[yabbaguy]

Unvote

I hate when people put un/votes in the middle of a line. Gotta watch the hypocrisy.

[yabbaguy]

Here's what I was thinking of at the time...

Is there anything that has caught your eye from the last few pages? Anything you want to comment on?

Do you think your vote on 12KB will turn into a viable bandwagon, dramonic?

When did you think the RVS ended?

I mean... they're really unhelpful questions, I don't see what's to be gained from these, and just looked like "trying to be helpful."

Point's really moot... these sorts of questions have dwindled over time.

[yabbaguy]

Trying to sort things out... and charge this game up so that we can *ahem* go to town with the lynching sooner rather than later. Commence the Not-Really-That-Random Questioning Stage.

@Nik: Why did you make posts such as:

Blah. When's the deadline?

and

Wheeeeeeeeee.

Is acting anti-town helping in some way?

@hohum: Why weren't you able to get on here throughout all of D2? I believe you had plenty of time to post something, and yet you were completely unopinionated throughout. What do you make of, say the saber wagon?

@Iguana: Why should people be following the wagons you're proposing? Do you think it's pro-town to just say "wagon wagon wagon die die die", or words along those lines?

@Honcho: Where the heck have you been? Also, I'm curious about your stances on the other players, since you really have mentioned only Pomegranate, me, and (very abruptly!) Antihero in the past few posts you've made. Something in me's thinking you're wagonning somewhat complacently, in retrospect.

@semioldguy

: How's the prod situation coming along? (who's prodded, who's seen it, who's lazy, who needs one?)

--

saber's lynch had nothing to do with being too fast. What more information would have been achieved with more time?

It's not so much that as the pacing of the entire wagon. Once anti-town behavior was observed, everybody just blew up and started saying "OMG anti-town anti-town", and suddenly, the pace just exploded to a point where the wagon was unstoppable. If we had all taken a bit more time to think, I think we wouldn't have been so complacent.

It seemed well-reasoned... but very few were actually using reason to justify, many just complacently wagonned without giving it a second thought (or were opportunistic scum who didn't care to think twice, I'd say!)

[yabbaguy]

Is appealing to the town for advice scummy? I've been lost all game, so I've been looking for second opinions on things before I act on stuff.

Basically, you're trying to attack me for something we've been over already. I played the game so goddamn conservatively, not sure of anything D1, but it's not scummy.

[yabbaguy]

Krer- I don't know if you're missing this, but you've now failed to fully recognize both Nikanor and SpyreX calling you out on this hypocrisy. Do you think SpyreX is possibly scum and distancing? If no, why are you voting Nikanor?

Aggressiveness is also a scumtell... a speculative one, but seeing as town have nothing criminal to hide, I don't see why you need to resort to scare and aggression tactics.

Nik-

"Wheee" = "I am going to lurk now."
Lurking = doing something anti-town
anti-town = stupid
"I am going to lurk now" = "I am going to do something anti-town now" = "I am going to be stupid now"
Saying "I am going to be stupid now" = stupid

Why are you being stupid on purpose?

[yabbaguy]

Clergy, you're not reading. It's aggressiveness whilst defending, and joining wagons that a scum suspect is on, whilst not indicating it's distancing.

And I'm not gonna wagon until my inactive scum suspects talk.

[yabbaguy]

I'm gonna start over and reread the entire 45 pages, and actually take notes this time. I bet I can succeed at doing it far quicker than dana, hohum, etc.

[yabbaguy]

Took me a mere hour and 15 minutes to read 15 pages. I'm falling in love with this game all over again.

It's absolutely thrilling reliving everything all over again: the glorious charge of the 12KeyBlade and Nikanor wagons, Toro's conquest to vanquish WarWound, the ability to relish in scumlists that were made by now confirmed town, and reliving how much of a floundering goddamn idiot I was back in those pages. The interactions that are becoming slowly more and more obvious the further back they are, and I already feel myself making a world of progress in analyzing what I thought were rather complex reactions.

Ohh... so good. I gotta do homework, but I can't wait to get back to this.

[yabbaguy]

All done. I just threw down a lot of things in my notes, but I need to turn them into the circuitry diagram of interactions that I was hoping for (and most likely have).

Prob. won't have a post tomorrow, but sometime over the weekend I will get to it. And I've never broken my posting promises. (...yet)

[yabbaguy]

Poetic voices are corny sometimes.

[yabbaguy]

An SCoug lynch would be good for the following list of reasons:

1. Foilist's Wagonning
   -Foil, Coug's former identity, decided to hop late on the 12KB wagon and the Nika wagon, both in somewhat opportunistic fashion. I suspect it's scummy. However, if I'm wrong and Coug flips town, then we can begin to probe Krer and Nikanor, two other people who have racked up enormous amounts of questionability and scumminess.
   
2. Zazie's Lurking
   -ZazieR, another former Coug identity, flaked out after promising a post WHILST POSTING ELSEWHERE. That's scummy.
   
3. Coug's Scumminess
   -StrangerCoug FOS'd skitzer at 890 for crap rationale and voted saber a few posts before, but in a way that just doesn't make sense as pro-town.
4. Iguana's Distancing
   - Iguana is clearly distanced from him. Yet she also rings scummy to me, so a flip could see if pursuing her is worthwhile.
   
5. Grimmy's Defense
   - Grimmy, a suspect who hasn't been looked at much, fired at Serial at post 1030 for rather weak reasoning. I'd be curious to see if he's just misguided or actually is trying to downplay a case as scum. I remember SpyreX pointing out that one of Krer/Grim is scum.

Lynching Kreriov would be good for the following set of reasons:

1. A wagon's only informative if it flips
   - Again, we can go the reverse route and try to flip the person that Foilist (among others) was wagonning and see if he was legitimate or opportunistic. Considering how much activity was around that, I think a lot of information can be drawn from it.
   
2. Antihero was scummy
   - He posted a lot of weird suspicions in his entry post, but few-to-none of them were scummy points, which is inherently scummy scumhunting.
   
3. If Antihero is scum, he was very transparent
   - I have a fleeting suspicion that most if not all of his suspicions were on non-scummy players, which makes me think that the actual scum were given no mention. I think he also buddied with Iguana back when he said "Exactly" to her.
   
4. Kreriov is scummy
   - His hopping onto the SabERwolf wagon come post 866 was rather opportunistic to me. It just sounded like the whole explanation of saber's scum gambit was convoluted and contrived. It's trying to make sense of SpyX's logic in strange ways.

Now I can't necessarily vouch for automatic causalities in every situation, esp. with an SK in the game. However, this is a good basis for trying to determine what information can be found, and to probe for motives.

I think more relation info is to be gained from the SCoug lynch, and also have found his activities to be more scummy as opposed to questionable, so I'm going to opt for that. That and I couldn't really find much on 12KB aside from his awful lurking (maybe SK tell?). A lot of my scum tilts are based on if-then causality, so I'm gonna need a few flips to see where that will take me. I know we're running out of time, but I think I won't need much more of it.

Vote: StrangerCoug

Toro being the SK is the only other SK suspect I have. I haven't seen links to him, but he was also certifiably useless. I modded a game he was Cop in (granted... it was a Mini), and he was definitely less lurky than that, so it feels non-vanilla to me.

@SpyreX: You claimed at one point that one of Grimmy/Kreriov and one of the power lurkers was scum at 994. What was your thought behind that?

@Col.Cathart: At 1104, you claim a Blastinus link could be drawn from Coug's flip. How come?

@Kreriov: I'm looking at the latter paragraph of 1114 here as I write this. Wasn't your reasoning for hopping on the saber wagon practically the same as SpyreX's reasoning? Why were you better reasoned and he was the one actually contriving his evidence?

@Nikanor: Why is Coug scummy?

@Iguana:

I would still love to lynch Toro, but cant word that safely

What does this mean?

[yabbaguy]

ZazieR was town in the game I modded, though, and I swear I'm town here, too.

Don't care about the former game.

Explain how voting someone for encouraging anti-town behavior is "crap rationale". You don't self-vote as town. The end. I'll push this until I die.

Encouraging it? I don't buy that. Saber was an anti-town bastard, I'll admit, but that doesn't necessarily mean he was scummy for it. Not the rationale you were giving, to me. Lack of understanding for why you're on a wagon shows a disconnect with the game, which makes you scummier than the others on the wagon.

Iguana's not saying much, as if she's trying to withhold her opinions about a lot of things.

I think we're arguing in agreement here on this and the other point.

[yabbaguy]

Hey! Grimmy's putting words in our mouth!

I will probably be able to get a post in before I go, but I only have a 90 minute window before I leave for a party I'm going to, but in any event, I'll post here next.

[yabbaguy]

Yabbaguy never breaks his posting promises, ladies and gentlemen.

@Krer-1126: But SpyreX obviously had actual rationale from the get-go, it was rather obvious in every *subsequent* post he made that his vote was with actual scum evidence attached. Understood on the rationale, though, doesn't sound as convoluted anymore on a re-read.

@Grimmy-1138: Feels like you're oversimplifying the case on Nikanor just to his silly antics, which indeed are not scummy in themselves, but for one, his mindless wagonning is rather mind-boggling. Interesting how you go out of your way to say "Not Nikanor" though, any particular reason for that?

@SpyX-1156: I didn't just post a textwall, I posted a LogicWall™ on why Coug lynch is both informative and likely to flip scum. How you call that one of the scummiest votes is blowing my mind right now.

[yabbaguy]

@SpyX-1190: Multiple things I can say to that:

-You're claiming that conjecture is a bad thing here. Analyzing anti-town and scummy is good for the initial stages of the game, but higher order scumhunting is in order once you get past the early stages of the game, and saying that I have too much conjecture is ridiculous, considering that's quite what's needed at this point.
-I am NOT on the Coug wagon out of apathy. Coug has been on every popular wagon for reasons that are shoddy to me (Already explained?), Skitzer's case (albeit not a vote) being an addition to what has already been said before. It's perfectly legitimate reasons. Combine it with Foilist's and Zazie's scumminess, and the role is scummy.
-I haven't seen you actually acknowledge the real points about Coug's scumminess that have been brought up. What do you make of his wagon hops? There's the apathy, in my opinion.

So... whoosh.

This lynch needs to happen. There's immense amounts of information to be gained, plus enough scumminess has been accrued to the point where it likely is a scum flip.

unvote
vote amished

Go go gadget quicklynch

You've now put the leading wagon one step back one day out from deadline. You need to have a POWERHOUSE reason for that wagon swap, the way I see it.

As for the Amished wagon, I don't get the reasons. Heliograph's bumbling language may partially be onto something here, what is the problem with coming up with new conjectures after the hammer? This sounds like a serious stretch for rationale. And lack of explanations, if you blame poor scumhunting ("a :headdesk: moment), that's not necessarily scummy.

[yabbaguy]

Ive come to the sudden realization that SCoug is town. There is a whole lot of information to be gained from a pom/amish lynch too.

Elaborate. More.

If everyone just posts "vote amish" in their next post a lynch will still happen.

A gutsy tactic that probably will fail. Or it could be scum sabotage.

No Lynch is disadvantageous with two scum killers out there... even whilst a cop is racking up evidence, it just doesn't outweigh the risk. They're killing too fast.

[yabbaguy]

Watching the clock... wish Amished would claim in case he's cop and has results (NOT to stop his lynch- that ain't happening). Otherwise, I'd be glad to hammer considering any lynch is better than No Lynch.

Nikanor- you wreak of total apathy. That's an SK tell. But considering an SK would probably be trying to knock scum out at this point, I'd rather go Mafia hunting.

[yabbaguy]

Makes perfect sense. Quit shitting me.

[yabbaguy]

If SK is trying to kill Mafia like Town is, why bother dispensing with them? I am not SK, by the way. Nice try.

@Sotty: Nikanor has been lurking his way through the entire Day, for the most part. Dropped a few actual suspicions down, but otherwise, especially as of late, hasn't been doing much.

Skitzer's getting lazy... but it's not like he's wildly off-topic either.

[yabbaguy]

Multiple thoughts here:

First off, SK is OBVIOUSLY going to kill a scum suspect at this stage of the game. That would be Coug. So drowning and the like is their thing.

Also, here are Iguana's first posts after each subsequent Day began.

Spent a while looking at lurkers, hoping they can give me something.

I actually came out of it liking Grimmy for town

, there were some posts in there that really are just town in nature, one of those small things that is completely unneccesary and damaging to scum. Still sort of like 12kb for town, there were some tells there, but information gleamed from that lynch is almost too much to pass up.

Zazie leans town too, around same area as 12kb given intent to change up wagons that were occuring, although it never passed so I cant give much of a point there.

Yank I dont like since he was for a bit active on other sections of the site, and I dont like Skitzer much at this point either, which is where my vote is headed once I get reasoning up.

And now D3...

I see Toro is added to the replacement list. I would almost be fine lynching him today due to his insistance on the WW lynch to an extent where he never commented on anything else,

mafia flip from him would not surprise me at all

. Not quite sure its in the intrest of the town as a whole to lynch him today over just that. Needless to say WW(SCl) is still town given my read from day one.

Vote Yabba

To open the day though, a good spot to start the day

She also later adds, "I want to lynch Toro, but I can't word that safely."

My guess: she got inno and then guilty on Blast and then Toro, respectively. I'm gonna run with it, and hope that Iguana isn't pounding her head into the desk reading this.

Vote: Sotty7

[yabbaguy]

If she had a guilty on me she would have pushed me a lot harder than her other gut cases don't you think?

Again, cop is trying to remain as introverted as possible. If she went guns blazing and had you nailed as scum, that REALLY would have tipped her off to the antagonists (you, I claim).

Also, I misspoke, I meant to say Iguana got inno on *Grimmy*. Although I agree with Krer here, I might have to reanalyze, I'm confused why he would be a prime target esp. after 12KB, among others, racked up tons more questionability.

[yabbaguy]

And Nikanor, I still contest, is demonstrating all the apathetic signs of a serial killer. But again, leave him alone, SK should be trying to kill scum right now.

[yabbaguy]

We're 5 v 2 v 1 right now. We actually have a mislynch to give, since we'll drop at worst to 2 v 2 v 1, and the SK will be playing for town to avoid getting endgamed themselves.

If Mafia is lynched, it'll go to 5 v 1 v 1 after the lynch, and opens the (narrow) possibility of a cross-kill between scum and SK for the town win.

If the SK goes lynched, it's 5 v 2 after the lynch, but then it's 4 v 2 after a nightkill. My advice: we'd still best leave the SK for the Mafia to dispose of and keep looking for actual Mafia.

Getting some sleep before I attempt this daunting Mafia hunting task. Good night.

[yabbaguy]

@SpyX-1342: I'm absolutely lost where this is going. The only thing that makes sense is the fact that I put a question mark next to Toro and Kreriov on the scumlist instead of calling them scummy outright, but everything else makes no sense to me.

---

On a sidenote- Grimmy's my second pick for SK if Nikanor is wrong. Remember, SK flips innocent to a cop.

Still thinking... but I have to leave for the night. Bye.

[yabbaguy]

Okay.

Vote: Knight of Cydonia

Blastinus took ages to vote 12KB at the outset of the game. "Okay, I'm gonna vote him", "If I don't see anything I'll vote him", "Okay... uhh... I'm voting him."

Also from Blastinus:

Here's a hint, Antihero. If you want people to unvote you, making an insulting rewording is generally not the best way to go about it.

My translation: "You're screwing up, partner. Here's how you fix it."

Blastinus also hopped on both the Nikanor and Zwet wagons simply for anti-town play. Zwet's wagon had a good time LATER and Nikanor was a good SK-tell, but meh.

Danakillsu, again using a SpyreX-ism... :BONK:

Knight of Cydonia enters with a mindmelt, or unrelated string of thoughts, ends up with Amished for... okay, I suppose legitimate reasons, but now has just been a shady figure in the backdrop ever since.

Col.Cathart, I'm nowhere near as sure about. The possibility's not completely out, but his general behavior indicates pro-town more than not.

[yabbaguy]

He obviously didn't declare it as an SK-tell, but in retrospect, screwing around and doing nothing is pretty much just that at most. No way it can be construed as a Mafia tell.

So yeah, the cases meant diddly-squat.

[yabbaguy]

Right now, the three scummiest looking people to me are Col.Cathart, Nikanor, and Blastinus.

I think one of the names is a bus. At least. Nikanor is obv Mafia-hunting, so I'm not going after him for that title. I'm starting to like CoCa more and more, but having my way, I'd go for KoC first.

I'd like to see *somebody* at least flinch at my vote.

[yabbaguy]

You did, KoC.

Why me first exactly?

Over... who? CoCa?

Why is this even an order of operations issue?

[yabbaguy]

a) got answered ages ago.

b) I don't remember why I was gunning for CoCa, actually. Perhaps it had something to do with his non-contribution out front and his supposed strange interaction between flipped scum and himself, but I don't even see that anymore.

c) You're the only I'm sure about, therefore.

To those of you who are not voting: why not?

This is a question just for the fun of questioning. I question your questionable questioning.

[yabbaguy]

I AM VOTING KOC YOU DUMBASS SK. LERN TOO REDE!!!11!

...anyway.

Heilo promised a post today. I have a hunch he's going to break it because that's the sort of guy he seems to be.

Clergyman- I'm still thinking about the second choice for Mafia, SpyreX has been a cocky bastard all game, but radically wrong at times (saber and Amished), and I'm starting to suspect vibes of him knowing the solution to this puzzle all along. However, I'm still deliberating Col.Cathart as a possible one, esp. since I mentioned Antihero may have bussed one of his top picks.

SK picks- Nikanor, then Grimmy. I'm satisfied with that.

[yabbaguy]

I AM VOTING KOC YOU DUMBASS SK. LERN TOO REDE!!!11!

...anyway.

Heilo promised a post today. I have a hunch he's going to break it because that's the sort of guy he seems to be.

Clergyman- I'm still thinking about the second choice for Mafia, SpyreX has been a cocky bastard all game, but radically wrong at times (saber and Amished), and I'm starting to suspect vibes of him knowing the solution to this puzzle all along. However, I'm still deliberating Col.Cathart as a possible one, esp. since I mentioned Antihero may have bussed one of his top picks.

SK picks- Nikanor, then Grimmy. I'm satisfied with that.

[yabbaguy]

The system... is down.

[yabbaguy]

Later in the game, the SK is obviously going to want to kill scum suspects. That's why it makes sense that your scumhunting starts picking up around the time of Kreriov and Sotty, because otherwise the SK would lose, since the scum would endgame everyone.

The fact is that you've been scumhunting in such a bizarre and outspoken way, not really adamant about anything, you're just screwing around with every scum case like it's a laughing matter, and thus nobody takes you seriously ("You're scum, too; Vote: X" is not adamant at all). A true pro-town player would be going guns blazing after someone, and in the case of vanilla town, would like to get NK'd. You clearly don't want to be the most pro-town player of all, but it's like you don't want to be anywhere near that risk of getting fatally shot. Understandable for someone who can't afford to die at all.

Again, we're Mafia-hunting, so I don't know why you're freaking about lynching a townie. But I'm massively confident you're the SK now.

[yabbaguy]

Do you realize how stupid you sound?

*cries*

Do you realize how stupid you sound? Everyone here wants scum dead. I'm just trying my best to get the scum lynched.

NO. You were lurking and hopping wagons every other post with little-to-no reasoning at the outset. Then later, when you the SK realized that town was going to lose, and the Mafia was going to win, you had to suddenly play pro-town and actually find the scum.

Craplogic found! You're saying the mafia would endgame EVERYONE, including town. How does this logic apply to me if I'm sk, but not if I'm town?

Good town scumhunts throughout. SK wants the larger faction to die, depending on the stage of the game. I'd hate to be an SK against 11-12 town myself.

The fact that your behavior has suddenly taken a remarkable shift for the better is great, since you're useful to the town, but seeing as you were dead useless earlier, I claim you were trying to camouflage yourself.

This is more a playstyle flaw than anything else. I think that once people realize what an amazing scumhunter I am they'll follow me more readily, though.

You can't promise to be better later, when there's not much "later" left in the game. Also, I think your playstyle falls too well under the SK motive, so I can't vouch for "bad play" here, anyway.

I don't think there's enough votes down for [yabbaguy and Col.Cathart] to be town. One of them is most likely mafia. The other goon is likely waiting to see where the tide is going to turn before placing their vote, to see if it's worth his while to bus.

I'm not sold on this, well beyond the part where you call me scum.

[yabbaguy]

Let me see if I can break this down for you, Heilo.

-Go re-read the argument between me and Nikanor. Nikanor is snapping at me because he feels the SK label I (among others) have pinned on him, is unjust. I claim that his behavioral tone over the course of the game suggests he is a Serial Killer, based on his motives. This is NOT a small thing.

-Remember, Serial Killer doesn't want the odds to be stacked against him. Whichever side, Town or Scum, tends to be winning, that's the one the SK wants to go for. That way, he prevents himself from having stacked odds, such as fending off a 10+ person town, or risking a Mafia endgame. That's the point I'm making.

-That aside, remember that we're Mafia hunting. There are 2 Mafia left, 1 SK, and 5 Town. If we lynch the SK, that's not optimal because then we're in MyLo next Day.

-As for Mafia hunting, I've suggested a case on Knight of Cydonia, and multiple others propose Col.Cathart is scum. But where the hell are you while this whole discussion is going on? If you're just going to sit there like a clueless blob wondering what's going on, you're anti-town.

-Probably the cause of the activity drop is that Col.Cathart is replacing out. Since he is a high suspect, most are just sitting around waiting for the role to be reactivated. I don't approve of this, but that's basically what's happening.

-You're also, in part, responsible for the activity drop. You've thrown a couple of names out in jest, no less parroting my "SpyreX is wrong" reasoning without realizing that "wrong" = "possible misdirection" in this case. Being wrong in itself is just what Town does. Your anti-town activity is well over the acceptable level, and to be more pro-town, you're going to have to actually scumhunt. What in Col.Cathart and SpyreX is scummy? You really can't one-line this part, the motives for your votes have to be extremely transparent, because that's how everyone votes, in turn.

[yabbaguy]

Nikanor has been opportunistically and randomly wagonning all game. Think about it.

Heilo, I don't care if you're thankful, post something useful.

[yabbaguy]

He spells it He

IL

o. Don't know why either.

Heilo's meta generally points to him being consistently clueless, but I haven't noticed him trying to make suspicious scum moves by any means in this game.

Col.Cathart is a good second-runner. He's been pushing crap cases the entire time, such as Heilo, zwet, saber, and now me. That and his questionable interactions makes me think this wagon is satisfactory. That and a part of me doesn't want to put up with the BS of waiting on another replacement.

Unvote, Vote: Col.Cathart

I still want to see KoC gone tomorrow.

[yabbaguy]

There's absolutely NO WAY that SpyreX is SK. Mafia's possible, but come on, he's been an egotist and a loudmouth the entire game, with extremely aggressive stances on just about everything.

I'd also like some reason beyond "he's anti-town" for why Heilo or Honcho is Mafia. From anyone who's deliberating that possibility.

[yabbaguy]

@Nul: How did you find this game? What appealed about a 20 player game?

@SpyreX: How likely is it that Kreriov is bussing a scumbuddy over trying to lynch a townie? That's the sticking point for many right now, at least the one I've heard the most.

Grimmy's just lurking probably 'cause he's lazy. Nik's lurking and acting like an SK.

@KoC: ((((scum)))))

[yabbaguy]

I just realised: yabba, we're the only two left out of the original players in this game! Oh noessssssssssssss. Hold me. D:

(((((obv SK)))))

Anyone else want a hug?

[yabbaguy]

Uh oh- that doesn't sound like a Mafia flip. *cringe*

It's not Grimmy, in any event. We had this argument when we examined cop results.

[yabbaguy]

Great as seeing a "never would've thunk it" SK going down, the fact of the matter is that scum derailing was present. It was obvious we were supposed to be aiming for Mafia with Col/Nul, and we wind up with a suboptimal lynch as a result.

Also, the correct play is to ALWAYS vote No Lynch with an all-vanilla 4 v 2. Suggesting otherwise is ridiculously anti-town. Someone who's played about 40 games who doesn't "know" this is setting off all sorts of alarm bells.

Vote: No Lynch

IGBEOY: SpyreX

(No typo... BOTH eyes on you.)

Helio is yet another WarWound-esque VI. We've been through this before, newbscum Helio would probably be a hell of a lot more confident- and was in a Newbie game he played scum in (later abandonned, but he was still alive IIRC). The only thing possibly wrong is the confounding variable of small v. large game, but I think it's very possible knowing the answers could go to one's head if they're naive and reckless, or cause them to flounder if they don't have the answer, causing them to just babble "There's nothing to talk about... blech."

Granted, we haven't had WarWound's spot flip- SCM's around. But I still adamantly think this sort of behavior indicates town.

Scratching SC, Helio, and Nik, that leaves KoC and SpyreX. I've done it, I contest. But let's at least get one suspect out of the way. There's absolutely no downside to improving the odds if only in the slightest bit. Nobody's absolute, categorical definitive town until they flip.

Viewing SpyreX as scum at the moment makes much more sense. I'm in midterm week, so I don't know if I can get around to going full-fledged PBPAs out of a 7 Day game, but I bet I could after the fact.

[yabbaguy]

Hi, I'm alive (clearly). Semi-massive to massive post formulation in progress.

[yabbaguy]

Listening to this whilst making this post. Love it.

KoC has gone: reread, fluff, fluff, strange reply to Nik, baseless accusation, mostly fluff, V/LA, moot question (albeit whilst in V/LA), retaliation, sorry for not posting, still sorry for not posting, STILL sorry for not posting, WHAM-O; baseless calling of the scumpair.

This is lurking like hell right now. We've seen it from Blastinus' spot throughout the entire game, and it seems to be a common theme. Often at this point, you have to figure that it's either apathy or scum trying to lay low. I think right now that's the case for Knight, since psychologically, he's probably least likely to be feeling the apathy. That's more me, Nikanor, and SpyreX who have gutted this game out from the beginning. The thing is, this is a post of absolutely unacceptable quality, and I don't know what this "major RL life" issue is, but the fact of the matter is, you simply just don't jump on a scumpair and vote one without at least explaining *somewhat* where the hell you're going with it.

Helio, on the other hand, the reasons I'm drawing a blank on. Yeah, he's free riding right now, but that's probably because his ability in playing is probably a tad... sub-par. In other words, what makes him any different from WarWound? Or do we believe WarWound's stupidity a nulltell throughout? (I'd contest otherwise). The way I see it right now, there's absolutely no difference right now. The thing I see it, this really is an issue of meta that can be said of all players who play the game like Heliograph. Usually as scum, they have all the answers, so the game suddenly becomes a lot more easier for them, and they play the game a hell of a lot more confidently. And Helio DID play confidently in a Newbie game where he was Mafia, although that game got abandonned. Meanwhile, however, it appears that Heliograph is floundering, and we're down to FIVE players right now, so the confounding variable of the game being too large has been chucked out the window right now. So Heliograph can't scumhunt. Lame, but at least we have him out of the way as a suspect in my eyes.

Meta, unlike most instances, becomes an extremely transparent issue when it comes to talking about people with rather simple minds. Thanks for making it blatantly obvious you're on the uninformed side, Helio, I appreciate it immensely.

Actually, why am I trying to reason with the people pushing him. SpyreX and KoC are trying to push Helio right now. Helio (obviously) and Nikanor don't seem outwardly enthusiastic about the prospect. And how convenient for me, they happen to be the scum suspects. The thought that they're pushing a VI and framing him as scum, when we've seen PRECISELY IDENTICAL play from someone who has now confirmed himself as pro-town (WW/SCl). Where in the world does the difference lie? The reasoning is COMPLETELY baseless, and nothing has been shown that has proven either Helio or Honcho as a scum possibility. Correct me if I'm wrong, but has anyone even made an actual thought of explaining why Helio's lurking is actually scummy? The fundamental difference is that Knight of Cydonia has actual intelligence about him but is choosing not to show it. Sorry for loading the compliment about the intelligence, but I think KoC's lurking is scummy.

However, I would NOT be surprised to see that SpyreX is opting for bus tactics right now. I wouldn't blame scum for taking a gamble right now instead of impatiently trying to go after a townie (Helio, he'll get to that later), we're in double LyLo, so they can afford to take one hit. It's fantastically brilliant tactics if they were to try it.

The other thing is that these have been SpyreX's comments upon hopping on each of the wagons, maybe AFTER the fact following with reasoning, but it doesn't fly.

Welp.
(vote zwet)

YESSIR YOU SURE READ THIS THREAD LOTS
(hammer Nul)

Weeeeee.
(vote Nik)

ALL of these vote jumps are ridiculously baseless. As weird as the term sounds on SpyreX, it's active lurking onto the wagons (or whatever you call Nik's momentum at that point). NONE of the above votes actually had actual reasoning on them. It's lazy wagonning onto people who are town (or likely town in Nik's case), and it's simply scummy.

The other interesting thing to note is that SpyreX had to hard-reverse when he realized I blasted the cop's results on Sotty wide open. I think that reverse-shift was blatant, and I think "misunderstanding" was not the issue causing him to think that I was a possibility. I think it's more that he was trying to do a scummy manipulation of Iguana's results, and skew everyone off the fact. When that failed, he had no choice but to give in.

So now comes the issue of who comes first in line and gets a vote. I think KoC was ridiculously lurking, and I saw Blastinus' ridiculously awkward interaction with 12KB (SpyreX notes this too) which makes me think he was along the lines of "... okay... umm... I'm going to vote [bus] him now!"

I'm slightly less certain of SpyreX. I'd like to see another death before I absolutely throw my chips down. For now though, Knight of Cydonia makes the most sense of anyone, and I'm ready to slam the cards down on the table and get one Day closer to bringing this multi-month struggle to an end. If the quickhammer drops and the scum win, I'll still regret nothing from going after this. Knight is doing RIDICULOUS amounts of lurking beyond what RL could possibly cause (Hey, I have no idea, you never told me what's going on!), and his predecessors were too.

...WAIT.

I'm not gonna vote yet, although I was *that* close to slamming the Submit button with the L-1 shot. I'll entertain a few comments why Helio should be chucked out. I should at least make sure I fully understand the opinions before I debunk them completely and go full guns blazing after KoC. Rushing LyLo is bad, anyway.

@KoC + SpyreX: Why vote now?

@Nikanor: Any actual thoughts you want to share with us?

@KoC: What was going on with real-life?

@KoC: Why did you internalize the ENTIRETY of your logic on a LyLo day?

[yabbaguy]

@KoC: Glad to hear everything's normal now.

Analy

sing

the Unvote, it's a bit bizarre. Now the thing I fear at this moment is that while I enjoy not getting lynched however it can be avoided, I'm now in the position where I simply must question why I got unvoted on just that one statement. It's recklessness- which is interestingly more of a towntell. But again, I'm opposed to taking things at face value, since impulsive jumping on single statements caused me to guess wrong on just about everyone in one of my games.

Now KoC is declaring uncertainty on SpyreX. Fencesits aren't scummy by themselves, of course, I've been through this. However, calling it just a lurker vote is a ridiculous understatement, we've seen so much more than that. Aside from that, the fact that he also lists it being a

LyLo vote

that he hates so much is hypocrisy, if I'm reading into this the right way.

I think it's kind of bleeding a bit of "hey, you never know" suspicion onto someone. It's just adding a bit of fuel to SpyreX's fire while nobody suspects it. Could it be a bus? Yes.

And Helio's reasoning is still a big blank from KoC. That is an EXTREME lurker vote right there, and should only be done if NOBODY else looks scummy. Since that's not the case, I don't know how the heck you're drawing a case off of that.

@SpyreX:

Yea. No way did scum tri-jump on a wagon over a different town wagon.

Extreme levels of WIFOM from the man who hates WIFOM himself. That may not matter if it's Nikanor scumbuddy defense, since I'm already thinking KoC at the moment, but I don't see why scum would give conscious thought to that fact.

Am I pushing helio at this point? Or, really, because of his WAKKKY HIJINKS does he fit better as a partner to the one of you two.

Saberwolf was *trying* for hijinks, and he's a dumbass for it (but he's still cool for a dumbass).

However, I don't see where this comes from with Helio. Yes, he's easily one of the most frustrating players, but why is this separable from WarWound? Like I said, there's a HUGE meta divide enough to drive a pick-up through when it comes to people like this. They play informed when they're informed, and when uninformed, they stay firmly that way.

Okay, your fancy machine of awesome (not) is still not answering what I want to hear. Why hop onto Nul's wagon without any actual reasoning?

You played zwet just like I did at the beginning of the game (a mistake) by just lazywagonning along with everything. However, Nikanor you never explained, although that may have been pressure.

The thing is though, yeah there are posts warning of this possible wagon, but there's no actual reasoning in ANY of the posts you cited for why you voted the people you did. Reading the thread poorly is NOT a scumtell; it's really the Nul hop that bothers me the most. The others I hopped on myself, admittedly, although I feel they were good hops when I did them.

What a load of propaganda... "simply beautiful".

You probably misread- if we lynch scum, we get a Day 8. So yes, assuming the first lynch is right, there's another townflip on its way. Makes perfect sense.

This reeks, reeks of filibustering

Point being?

---

No vote yet.

[yabbaguy]

Hey SpyX- on an off-topic note: what do you think of a Title nom for "Whoooooosh" referencing your penchant for cool sounding but almost nonsensical vocabulary? You're long overdue for a title, IMO.

[yabbaguy]

I don't hand-wring pointlessly, and I'd say that the filibustering sounded like something "worrisome" given that you gave it mention. That said, I'd agree your case is becoming a ridiculous stretch the more I try it. That and the fact that scum have EXTREMELY little reason to say "OMG A+++ HUNDRED PERCENT TOWN" to one person, thus completely blocking yourself from being able to get that particular town mislynch if you were scum.

Either that or you're blatantly defending a scumbuddy. Which would be stupid. And you're not stupid. And I'm still KoC-aimed right now, so that also blows a hole in that conjecture.

I probably will need to reconsider whether Heilo's behavior is a nulltell- but in any event, I'm really, really sure about KoC. No use lollygagging.

Vote: Knight of Cydonia

It's really Blastinus' active lurking and his painfully obvious distance from 12KB. Not your fault.

[yabbaguy]

I hate endgames.

No, KoC, it's not me.

[yabbaguy]

Wait a sec- I still haven't a damn clue whether it's Nik or Helio.

[yabbaguy]

No mod-bashing here.

Oi- I was way off on the meta of Helio. I can't believe this goddamned lurker won though- he doesn't deserve any of it.

The moment I saw it- I thought it was a *scum* quickhammer, but realizing that SpyreX would be taking a non-worthwhile gamble doing it- I knew something was up, and that Nikanor was likely up to his lurking ways. But boy was that risky business- that's ridiculously scummy to hammer like that on a snap decision. I would've immediately spun around on Nikanor later.

SpyreX- y'know, I pretty much had him at the end (although I was about to turn around), but I had my order of operations wrong. That said, the KoC lynch was probably going to happen one way or another, although then again- with Helio's kill likely getting randomized, things might have been a lot different. Oh well.

Basically, I knew the wagon hops were nothing but crap, and his desperate attempt to cover up the fact that Sotty was the crumb was a tell for me. That and the WIFOM that he would've been dead ages ago if he really was as much of a monolith as he was the entire game. But boy was that a risky gamble to basically say "OMG NIKANOR'S TOWN".

It was really Blastinus' lurking and love/hate with 12KB. It was the same thing in Newbie 782 (remember Nik?) where ConsonantM basically was right about the fact that the docclaim should not have been trusted, but he was scum at the same time. In any event- Helio, hell no. And getting a replacement, well, you can't really tell the meta of it just by

Mini-victories:
-staying off the scum wagon
-not getting lynched despite screwing up royally D1+2.

Failures:
-basically thinking all SKs lurk like Nikanor did. (Cobalt did in another game- but that's another game.) But it made perfect sense.
-thinking dumbasses have a clearly dichotomous meta.

The other things that killed it were having massive numbers of unreadables (zwet, saber, WW, Helio) and the fact that the powerroles fell far too soon (although Iguana still crumbed scum).

I regret nothing beyond D2.

[yabbaguy]

But see, I thought Nul was just honestly making a reading mistake. Kinda hard to miss that- but boredom whilst reading a mini-novel tends to do shenanigans to your mind.

I mean the zwetwagon, meh, what the hell was he gonna do anyway. I just cannot stand people who play ridiculously non-transparent like that.

How shocking- the 12KB wagon, the very first wagon we had from the get-go, was correct. One thing that aggravated me whilst I did my re-read was that I realized- wow, this wagon really needs to flip. I felt something was not right with Kreriov, too, but what was consistently frustrating was that I could never put my finger on it throughout the entire game.

Ouch on Scott dying N1. Wondering if it was a crapshoot or an educated guess, because honestly, Scott is the biggest lurker like you wouldn't believe in all my games- even as vanilla. He's replaced out about every damn time I've played with him- 2-3 times.

The saberwagon- y'know, what could I do about it. Saberwolf made the conscious choice to decide to play ridiculously against his win-condition, and that's nothing in my control.

I'm still not sure how that Amished wagon came about.

Ouch on Iguana dying- but I think she was lurking to the point where scum would surely suspect something was up. And most likely, yeah, while I'm sure now that SpyreX was trying to cover up the fact, it was plainly obvious that she had crumbed at Toro ("I can't word that safely".) That's a ridiculously blatant coptell from the scum's vantage- but town's too once she flipped.

As I suspect- SK starts aiming for Mafia realizing the Town's become incompetent. Foilist is another one of those always-lurks-and-plays-scummy like hell players, and this game was no exception- so I don't blame Col for aiming at him.

Skitzer was an SK-shot, I take it. Interesting choice.

Seeing the SK prematurely flip was one of the most painful moments in the game. If we had put off Mafia-hunting just one more time and aimed for the SK suspects Nik and Grimmy, yeah it would've failed, but things may have been a lot different if the SK and Mafia continued to shoot at each other!

The other beautiful thing is that even if SpyreX was the lynch instead, Nikanor likely would've behaved the same way and quickhammered. Had that have happened, I would've immediately snapped at the quickhammer as being scummy as hell, discarded all of SpyreX's antics that Nik was town, and hammered *him* instead. So really, as long as Heilo decided to sit in his LA-Z BOY and relax, I couldn't win.

[yabbaguy]

Who was everyone else banking on?

[yabbaguy]

Why play a female alt, Llama? Just to call me your "hun" at some point in the game? *creeped out*

(jk)

Col likely made a swap from a town (not) player to a scum (not) player because he realized that the Town was in the losing scenario. SK's optimal strategy- kill the people who are winning right now. That's Town's fault.

I haven't the slightest idea how Llama decided to think Helio (Honcho at the time) was scum. I'm impressed- but too bad you got done in before then.

Good to know we were spot-on with catching the investigations.

@Grimmy- you pretty much want the kids to shut up one way or another anyway.

The thing is- you really gotta participate a tad more- you did play with a good deal of apathy that the SK can do. Col didn't play the apathy card as aggressively, and that's why had it not been for him Mafia-telling oddly enough, that would've done you in.

I'll shut up now about the game- save for the YGDB entry I'm putting in. Not sure how the hell I'll recap this game in one paragraph.