Open 174- Lovers Mafia (Over!)

[Sanjay]

Vote: Zazier

Let's lynch him before he can spam up the thread.

[Sanjay]

Before he can hoodwink us with his Dutch charm.

[Sanjay]

If he does hoodwink us with his Dutch charm, I will point to these posts during postgame and say "I told you so" in a really obnoxious fashion.

[Sanjay]

Better lynch him and spare yourself the risk of that happening.

[Sanjay]

I don't think I have ever had cause to take a FoS less seriously.

[Sanjay]

I don't think I have ever had cause to take a FoS less seriously.

Random FoS stage > Random Voting Stage.

Do you actually mean this, or is this the Random Opinion Stage too?

[Sanjay]

If you would kindly tell us how many votes it does take to scare you, 12KeyBlade, I'm sure the other players would be happy to oblige.

Unvote

Vote: 12KeyBlade

[Sanjay]

BOOGA BOOGA BOOGA!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sanjay]

Neat.

How come?

[Sanjay]

Fair enough. I probably wouldn't have voted for ZazieR if IMkingdavid hadn't done it first.

I'm just a real sucker for peer pressure, you know?

[Sanjay]

I have officially caught at least one scum in Sanjay, zwet and dramonic. Most likely Sanjay.

Yes, all we have to do is lynch half the town for an assured town victory!

Thanks, 12Keyblade!

[Sanjay]

How do you figure we have up to four days to hit scum?

Also, could you tell me what you hoped to accomplish with your vote on me? What was your motivation?

[Sanjay]

You forgot the mafia were lovers too?

[Sanjay]

Vote: Zazier

Let's lynch him before he can spam up the thread.

Too late!
But why? Doesn't it cheer you up ?

In this game, when we only have six players posting, I'm actually fine with your spam posts. But they can be a little disruptive in other situations.

If you would kindly tell us how many votes it does take to scare you, 12KeyBlade, I'm sure the other players would be happy to oblige.

Unvote

Vote: 12KeyBlade

How serious was this vote?

It was a somewhat serious vote. I didn't really like 12KeyBlade's overt show of caution and I didn't like him not voting.

Fair enough. I probably wouldn't have voted for ZazieR if IMkingdavid hadn't done it first.

I'm just a real sucker for peer pressure, you know?

So why go for double L-2, instead of a L-1?

I thought two bandwagons would be more interesting than one and also I wanted to vote for you.

[Sanjay]

imkingdavid, could you explain why you don't think acting like you don't know the mafia are lovers constitutes actual evidence?

[Sanjay]

Hi, dramonic. What's the buzz?

[Sanjay]

You can't think of any reason?

[Sanjay]

RE: that was a follow-up question to

"Also, may I pose the question: why would scum so blatantly choose to omit such a major part in the game?"

[Sanjay]

I didn't answer your question, Zazie, I wanted to ask imkingdavid my question first.

imkingdavid did make two shows of caution that I didn't comment on. Both in response to zwet putting someone at L-1.

wow that's a major wagon on 12. Already L-1. Let's reel it back in before we have a lynch on the second page of a game.

In any case, I don't have time to post my thoughts at the moment because of homework. Maybe later tonight, or at the latest, tomorrow.

I can see scum making this post to show off how townish they are and I suppose scum-imkingdavid might choose to defend scum-12Keyblade in this way, but I can also see town being legitimately worried about a quick lynch. A lot of people I have seen left at L-1 have been lynched before I was ready to end the day, and so I guess I was biased towards the town reading.

To contrast it with 12Keyblade's show of caution, 12Keyblade was cautious about people being put at L-2. That's a lot more eye catching than this imkingdavid post.

zwet... do you enjoy having multiple people at L-1 before the 3rd page? I can understand if you have suspicions, maybe, but "This is hilarious" is not a good reason to put someone one vote from a lynch. I admit that my vote was on the less serious side as well, but it wasn't L-1. We only have up to 4 (?) days to hit scum. Let's not throw away a day on accident.

unvote

imkingdavid saying that we had 4 days to hit scum was much more interesting to me than imkingdavid unvoting me. Maybe I was a little happy he did?

There's a few things that don't really make sense to me about imkingdavid's:

1. I am puzzled how he forgot the mafia were lovers ESPECIALLY after 12Keyblade made the post about forgetting about the lovers. I am generally a little skeptical that anyone in this game would forget about that, since it is the whole theme of the game, but imkingdavid's post seems especially weird.

2. If imkingdavid is scum and is trying to pretend he forgot the mafia were lovers, it seems like a very crafty way to do it (speculating that there are 4 days left to kill mafia). I suppose if 12Keyblade was town imkingdavid might have gotten the idea to forget that there were mafia as well, but if this were the case it seems like it would be a lot easier for him to just use it as evidence against 12Keyblade and go for his lynch, rather than trying to copy him.

Though I suppose that if he is scum he has access to daytalk so he could get his partner to go after 12Keyblade, but that seems like a bad strategy to go after someone else for the same thing your partner is doing. Plus if this were the case I would not have expected imkingdavid to be clueless about why it is scummy in the first place.

3. I don't know why imkingdavid doesn't find 12Keyblade scummy for posting about not knowing the mafia were lovers. He seems to be abandoning it as a valid piece of evidence altogether, even if he

imkingdavid, after ZazieR's explanation of why it is scummy, do you find 12Keyblade scummy for it now?

4. I wasn't trying to word my question to make imkingdavid look bad and I don't know why he thinks I did. imkingdavid, I said you were acting like you forgot about the lovers because you were. I don't know whether you actually forgot as well, so I really don't feel like I am twisting anything by phrasing the question like that. Maybe I am misreading myself, but it seems a bit paranoid to me, which is a little scummy.

ZazieR, was the ORLY? part of 85 a serious question or should I just answer that with YA RLY or something?

[Sanjay]

Unvote; Vote: Imkingdavid

YAY someone on my scumlist!

Who else is on this scumlist? Am I to infer that both 12Keyblade and myself aren't on it or something? What's the deal with that?

[Sanjay]

imkingdavid, if you had to lynch someone right now, who would you lynch?

[Sanjay]

imkingdavid, I know post 114 was technically addressed to ZazieR, but I'd really like you to comment on it. There is even a question addressed specifically to you if you read hard enough.

Just remembered,

Sanjay

, you still need to give your thoughts on David and tell why you aren't supporting his wagon.

I'm not voting David because I was unsure about my read. Was that not clear from my previous answer? How do you figure I hadn't given my thoughts on David? You obviously didn't miss them because you quoted from them.

What's your impression of 12Keyblade? Why is the David wagon more appealing to you than the 12Keyblade wagon?

Unvote; Vote: Imkingdavid

YAY someone on my scumlist!

Who else is on this scumlist? Am I to infer that both 12Keyblade and myself aren't on it or something? What's the deal with that?

You're not happy that you aren't on his scumlist? If you are happy, then why ask these questions?

Also, after looking back, it seems you posted a few times after Zwet made this post. So why only comment on it now?

I haven't been very suspicious of zwet because he had come of as rather townish, but I was a bit surprised that he didn't consider 12Keyblade scummy.

I'd rather not be on a scumlist than on it, but I don't like anyone being anywhere if I don't know why it is the case.

Don't worry, I'm town. I'm feeling an IKD/12KeyBlade scumteam atm.

zwet, if you were feeling an IKD/12Keyblade scumteam back on post 48, why wasn't 12Keyblade on your scumlist as of post 83? What happened? Was 12Keyblade's silence so moving you became convinced he had to be town?

[Sanjay]

well, IKD has more content to analyse and isn't as bandwagon-berserk as you are Sanjay

Question: Why is bandwagoning scummy?

I realize this is Dram's question, but I believe he already answered it in post 109, so I'll put in some input as well.
Bandwagoning is scummy when you are doing it just to have a vote on and to increase the votes on someone else. It makes it look like you don't actually have a reason to vote and as if you don't care who is lynched. And all protown players *should* care who is lynched, and therefore shouldn't bandwagon because someone could by mislynched before they can provide a defense.

What relevance does this have to the situation? We were talking about my bandwagoning. Is there a reason why you feel my vote for ZazieR and my vote for 12Keyblade demonstrate a lack of caring?

What motivated you to answer this question?

Also, unless it is LYLO, the mafia cares a lot more about who is lynched than town does.

[Sanjay]

Another L-1. See how funny you people are?

You didn't know that I like L-1's yet?

Is there a reason you made this post?

[Sanjay]

Oh, I did cut off midway through writing it. I just assumed ZazieR cut off my quote or something. Whoops.

I think acting as if you don't know the mafia were lovers is scummy. And by scummy I mean scum are more likely to do it than town. 12Keyblade could have legitimately forgotten and so could have you. However, I think it is still a suspicious thing to forget, especially in a game called Lovers Mafia, especially when I figure people would actually think about the setups they are signing up for. If you are town, you know it. But you don't know that 12Keyblade is town, and I don't understand why you aren't suspicious of him.

Just because a town person does something that is scummy doesn't mean it isn't still scummy.

Do you disagree?

And if you don't, explain why you don't think it's a legitimate tell.

Also, how did you miss 12Keyblade saying he forgot about the lovers?

[Sanjay]

Also, you are absolutely allowed to answer other people's questions. But you should have a reason to.

I think perhaps in your eagerness to expound on game theory, you missed what ZazieR's question was doing, which was asking about dramonic about his motivations.

Also, your point 3) is totally ridiculous. Mafia knows exactly who is town and town doesn't, so of course mafia cares more about who is lynched. Stop making such a big show of how townie you are.

Unvote, Vote: imkingdavid

[Sanjay]

It wasn't my intention to get you lynched in one post, imkingdavid, but I'm okay with it.

[Sanjay]

It's way more than you're supposed to say.

Sanjay, once the day 1 ends I'm voting you, fyi ^^

Fine with me. Either I get quicklynched and I don't have to think about anything or I don't and vote for you.

Either way, easy street.

[Sanjay]

Seriously?

dramonic, if you are town you really need to unvote.

[Sanjay]

dramonic, if you are trying to catch a scum bandwagon mid-bandwagon it probably isn't going to work. They have daytalk and will be more coordinated than you.

[Sanjay]

What did I say that made you unvote?

What did I say that you didn't consider before you made your vote?

[Sanjay]

So your plan was what? Watch the thread like a hawk?

[Sanjay]

zwet, is there a reason why you doubted IKD's post-hammer town-claim?

[Sanjay]

I am surprised zwet wasn't suspicious of 12Keyblade for two reasons:

1) 12Keyblade is suspicious for a lot of the same reasons imkingdavid was suspicious.
2) zwet made this post

It seems like an inconsistency.

zwet

, if it doesn't cramp your style could you comment?

Another L-1. See how funny you people are?

You didn't know that I like L-1's yet?

Is there a reason you made this post?

To announce that I support L-1's in Lovers games and that I also disagree with the bandwagoning argument.

Why announce that when it takes the teeth out of your own L-1 and it gives scum clues on how to act townish?

I felt like you are playing up your pro-townness at the expense of your scumhunting here. I don't know how I think about it now because arguing against the bandwagoning argument is a believable excuse.

Why did you ask the bolded?

It felt like imkingdavid was trying to appear pro-town while avoiding scumhunting by expounding on game theory. I didn't really see the point of answering the question since he failed to apply it to our situation at all.

I think acting as if you don't know the mafia were lovers is scummy. And by scummy I mean scum are more likely to do it than town. 12Keyblade could have legitimately forgotten and so could have you. However, I think it is still a suspicious thing to forget, especially in a game called Lovers Mafia, especially when I figure people would actually think about the setups they are signing up for. If you are town, you know it.

But you don't know that 12Keyblade is town

, and I don't understand why you aren't suspicious of him.

Which is why you called 12KB out for that scummy action? (In case you couldn't tell, it's sarcastic. You didn't do so after 12KB stated he didn't know. Please explain why.)
Also, the bolded is a slip.

I agree the bolded looks like a slip. I've made scumslips as town before but I know that means basically nothing in this situation. You should definitely consider me suspicious because of it.

But don't ignore 12Keyblade because of it.

I didn't call 12Keyblade out for his scummy action because I was waiting for him to respond to this post. It was the second time I saw 12Keyblade try to cast a much wider net of suspicion that is appropriate for good scumhunting and I wanted him to comment.

At the time, this was a bigger deal and I wanted a reaction to my post. When I got it I didn't really know what to take from it, but that isn't really relevant right now.

Then imkingdavid made a post where he seemed to forget about it too, and that was weird I wanted to press him on it.

I thought I was bringing it up against both of them with this post. I suppose it could have been more explicit, but I wanted their reactions.

Then you explicitly asked 12Keyblade about it and I saw no reason to do so myself. Especially with him disappeared forever like this.

It's way more than you're supposed to say.

Sanjay, once the day 1 ends I'm voting you, fyi ^^

Fine with me. Either I get quicklynched and I don't have to think about anything or I don't and vote for you.

Either way, easy street.

This is a scum post due to the bolded.

How?

Also, my later reaction was different because that was obviously not a serious suggestion. Though I suppose with 12Keyblade apparently gone me not getting quicklynched wouldn't necessarily mean that dramonic is scum, so even as a non-serious suggestion I don't really stand by it.

But generally, if I got voted and wasn't quicklynched during LYLO, I would conclude the person voting me was scum.

Sanjay

- Can you summarise why you voted David?

I was suspicious of him because I didn't like that he wasn't scumhunting, I thought he was playing too townie and I thought he was suspicious for apparently actually forgetting about the lovers.

But I also wanted to see how he reacted to me taking a vote off of 12Keyblade.

Sanjay

- Why no comment on the statement of Dramonic not knowing that scum could daytalk?

I didn't notice at scummy. You are misrepresenting dramonic. He said he hadn't considered that the mafia don't have daytalk. Not that he didn't know. The former is a lot more plausible than the latter.

Did you misread dramonic? Do you disagree?

Dramonic

, I presume I'm your top suspect. Why didn't you ask me questions after you unvoted me? You have voted for me yes but you haven't really pressured me all game. Is this an unfair assessment?

[Sanjay]

So what's your plan now?

[Sanjay]

Sanjay

Regarding the part of Zwet being not suspicious of 12KB, #2 isn't valid.

I disagree. I don't think this statement would have made as much sense if zwet was not suspicious of 12KB. IKD had argued against both the 12KB wagon and my wagon. I don't understand why zwet was feeling an IKD/12Keyblade scumteam if he didn't find him suspicious.

Plus if you really are feeling an IKD/12KB scumteam wouldn't your suspicion of 12KB increase if you were suspicious of IKD? It seems like it.

Why announce that when it takes the teeth out of your own L-1 and it gives scum clues on how to act townish?

Don't think it did (For both statements) and don't see how it gives clues.

I felt like you are playing up your pro-townness at the expense of your scumhunting here.

I don't understand what you're saying here. Can you rephrase it?

Basically, if you talk about how much you like L-1s it makes scum less worried about being at L-1 because they know you are just doing it because you like it.

Recklessness is a pretty well-known town-tell, but advertised recklessness is a bit suspicious.

I agree the bolded looks like a slip. I've made scumslips as town before but I know that means basically nothing in this situation. You should definitely consider me suspicious because of it.

Links to those games?

I can unfortunately only link to one: Newbie 825, post 715, paragraph 4

It's not the most compelling, but at least this should show that you can't eliminate malpascp from suspicion even if you think I am scummy.

But he did respond to it, saying he didn't get it. So why not explain/rephrase it to him?

I guess I should have. I wasn't really sure if I believed that he didn't get it but I didn't know what to do with that.

It's mostly the 'Fine with me'. If you're town, this could lead to our loss. Yet, you state that it's fine with you. Eventhough you added that you could get quicklynched.
This gives me the impression that it's a loose threat.

It wasn't a threat at all. I didn't really think dramonic was serious and I thought that if he was, reminding him of how LYLO works would be enough to get him not to do it.

I was suspicious of him because I didn't like that he wasn't scumhunting,

I thought he was playing too townie

and I thought he was suspicious for apparently actually forgetting about the lovers.

Can you give examples of the bolded? Or is it a different wording of his cautiosness?
Also, do you agree that there have been many players not scumhunting?

What's your opinion of Dram's vote against David and the statements afterwards before D2 started?

The biggest thing was in post 137:

3) So are you saying we should just let anyone get lynched today and then tomorrow when it IS LYLO we actually start caring about the game a little bit? No. I care who gets lynched because I don't want a mafia victory. If you do, maybe you should be the lynchee.

It just seemed like an inappropriate response to what I said, which was that the mafia cares more about who is lynched than town in a non-LYLO situation and it seemed like IKD was trying to play "townier-than-thou".

dramonic's vote against IKD is consistent with his "let's lynch whoever I don't have a town-read on and hope for the best" attitude. It is definitely not a pro-town attitude but I don't necessarily think it is scummy.

We have three living players and we used to have four where I wasn't really satisfied with their scumhunting. I don't know how strong of a tell it is. But yes, I agree with you.

I didn't notice at scummy. You are misrepresenting dramonic. He said he hadn't considered that the mafia don't have daytalk. Not that he didn't know. The former is a lot more plausible than the latter.

Did you misread dramonic? Do you disagree?

Misread him. But it doesn't change the point. Especially as he has played the Lovers set-up before.

It does change the point. dramonic's first lovers game resulted in a day 1 mafia lynch. I don't think the mafia's ability to coordinate a quicklynch really came up.

[Sanjay]

Cause he's not at a risk of getting scum to pile on his vote because he's one of them

How serious are you about this?

[Sanjay]

What do you mean by "that or the scumteam are sneaky bastards", dramonic?

malpascp, what were your reasons for the dramonic vote? Why haven't you answered this question?

[Sanjay]

dramonic, what's your rationale for not voting malpascp?

[Sanjay]

'sup, homies.

Sorry for the inactivity. I was just kind of waiting for other peeps to post.

[Sanjay]

Sanjay is town, Dram or you is scum.

zwet, do you think there is some kind of relationship between Dram being scum and ZazieR being scum? Or is that an inclusive or?

Does your read on one affect your read on the other? If so, why?

[Sanjay]

Malpascp and zwet, this game can only move as fast as you right now.

[Sanjay]

He no longer seems scummy.

How come?

The next time you answer a question, this one would be nice.

[Sanjay]

What took you so long?

[Sanjay]

I think I'm going to stop responding to Zaz's stupid questions now.

zwet, what did you think of post 282?

[Sanjay]

Will you respond to my stupid questions?

[Sanjay]

Voting anyone besides malpascp or dramonic would be totally stupid, zwet.

[Sanjay]

How do you figure?

[Sanjay]

Actually, now that I think about it, unless dramonic and malp are scum lovers voting for each other, I suppose there is just as much a chance of hitting scum between ZazieR and zwet as there is between malp and dramonic.

Though if it is a choice between choosing between malp and dramonic or ZazieR and zwet, I'll probably choose malp and dramonic because zwet is ridiculous to read.

[Sanjay]

I was planning on supposing that no matter who I vote for.

You mind explaining how this is any different from your suppositions in post 310?

[Sanjay]

Could you link to Open 133?

Also, unless it is obviously apparent, could you tell me what differences you see?

[Sanjay]

Vote zwet

[Sanjay]

TRUE LOVE CONQUERS ALL!!!

[Sanjay]

I warned dramonic that he shouldn't overestimate the speed at which a daytalking mafia team could quicklynch.

[Sanjay]

grumble.

Losing aside, you should be pretty happy about your play. You were right about me and you were right about 12Keyblade.

[Sanjay]

Also we really all are winners, because your win condition is "You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated." and I don't see how malp and me are a threat to the town.

We just wanted to be happy, you know?

[Sanjay]

Thanks for modding, Sajin!

I really loved the theme you had for this game. The idea that the town was a bunch of friends that thought love was icky was hilarious and also described the mechanics of Lovers Mafia perfectly.

[Sanjay]

By the way, malp and I need to apologize for lurking up a storm in here. malp voted dramonic to get him off my back but he didn't really have any reasons to justify that vote. Most of the lurking was just dodging ZazieR's question.

[Sanjay]

dramonic had left some hints that he would hammer pretty much anyone he had a scum read. I wish I was enough of a mastermind to realize that and put you at L-1 strategically, but I didn't.

I was pleasantly surprised to see you hammered so fast.