Open 144 - Near-Vanilla - GAME OVER!

Alduskkel · Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:47 pm

I don't think I'll ever play with/mod hohum again.
----------------------------------------------------------
So here's basically why I think pablito is Town.

The Corporation comes across as Town to me largely because of gut; he seemed like slightly newbish tunneled Town to me.

pablito himself often makes short one liners that don't contribute much, and sometimes he just blatantly bandwagons. But when he DOES post content, I always think he makes good points, and he actively contributes to discussion, and doesn't sit back and do nothing. I think DRK was tunneling on him, he seemed to view pablito and TC's posts with scum goggles on. I've never seen him consider the possibility that pablito is pro-Town.

DRK's iso post 15 only really says one thing to me: TC wasn't a very logical player. That's not scummy.

pablito's "defense" of Khamisa isn't much of a defense. As he has said before, he was just upset with the single-mindedness of the attacks on her.
----------------------------------------------------------
I'm not going to reveal who I targeted. At this point, I firmly believe that it will give the Scum more information than the Town.

Alduskkel · Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:15 pm

??? Do you enjoy WIFOMing yourself to shit ???

Alduskkel · Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:23 pm

d3x wrote:
Alduskkel wrote:??? Do you enjoy WIFOMing yourself to shit ???
Trust me, he does.

How do you know?

Alduskkel · Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:43 pm

:headdesk:

Seriously, how do you know? Or were you joking earlier?

Alduskkel · Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:13 pm

Sorry. I thought you were joking, like what MCD did in 1725.

Alduskkel · Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:50 pm

Khamisa was scum, so hohum was wrong about her. What are you getting at?

Alduskkel · Wed Sep 30, 2009 1:17 pm

d3x wrote:[Chinaman's] last minute quasi-appeal to emotion in p1381 also pops back up in my mind, now that I've done a quick skim of the interaction.

What do you mean? Also, why didn't you note this in 1382?

Alduskkel · Sat Oct 03, 2009 5:11 pm

Kise, you act like you haven't read the post above you, which was 2 hours ago.

Alduskkel · Sun Oct 04, 2009 10:35 am

It makes it look like you're not really paying attention though.

Alduskkel · Sun Oct 04, 2009 10:42 am

Kise, how much of the game thread have you read?

Alduskkel · Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:29 pm

Unless you spent two hours on 1783 then I don't see why you didn't at least get rid of the "have you played a game where d3x was anti-town?" question. I mean, you must have known that it would look dumb.

Alduskkel · Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:52 pm

Kise did you read 1782 before or after you posted 1783?

Alduskkel · Sun Oct 04, 2009 6:09 pm

Right now I have Town reads on everyone but Chinaman and Kise. AndyTony might be there too.

Mod: What's the vote count???

As of this post, nobody has voted yet.

Alduskkel · Sun Oct 04, 2009 8:04 pm

saberwolf, why did you replace in if you think there's too much to read? What did you expect when you decided to replace into a 70+ page game? One liners every single post?

Alduskkel · Sun Oct 04, 2009 8:05 pm

saberwolf, please link to games where you have been lynched. All of them.

Alduskkel · Sun Oct 04, 2009 8:32 pm

Vote: saberwolf

. You're appealing to emotion, and there's no good way for you to not have known how long this game was. This is Crazy's post in the replacement thread:

Crazy wrote:[mrow]
Requested
[col]
Name/Type/Flavor
[col]
Moderator
[col]
Length
[col]
Notes
September 26th[col]Open 144 - Near-Vanilla[col]Crazy[col]Day 3, 68 pages[col]Replacing pablito. Deadline is about to happen so you'll be able to catch up during the Night Phase.

And this is filled. Thanks, saberwolf!

Cut the crap. You knew how long this game was.

Alduskkel · Sun Oct 04, 2009 8:53 pm

Unvote

... for the time being.

I'm off to check saberwolf's games.

Alduskkel · Sun Oct 04, 2009 8:54 pm

saberwolf, why didn't you check the game length?

Alduskkel · Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:06 pm

These are all of saberwolf's finished games that I could find. I don't have time to sift through them right now.
Newbie 820
Open 161
Mini 830
Open 166
Open 154
Open 152
Open 149
Newbie 800
Newbie 804

Alduskkel · Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:40 pm

Vote: saberwolf

.

Alduskkel · Mon Oct 05, 2009 7:19 pm

saberwolf is at L-1. I want to see his reactions to this, so please, no one hammer at the moment.

Chinaman wrote:Another thing, and this is something I would like you [saberwolf] to explain: Why, if you are town, do you think that your lynch today would equal a town loss? You do realize there are only 2 scum left and 6 town. Let's say for instance you are town AND we lynch you today. Then lets say nobody is protected at night and we lose another town. The next day would still start with 4 town vs. 2 scum. That is hardly losing and it is still possible to have a town win. It would put us in LYLO, but I'm sure there have been many games that go to LYLO with a town win. So yeah, why is your safety so damned important to town that if we lynch you today, we auto lose and you have to make your sig "Town Wins/Losses: 1/5"??

Did you want saberwolf to claim Doctor? Because that's how it sounds.

Also, saberwolf just finished Open 170.

Alduskkel · Mon Oct 05, 2009 7:26 pm

No, I'm a dumbass and keep thinking saberwolf is in games that he isn't in.

Alduskkel · Mon Oct 05, 2009 7:34 pm

Kdub: I presume you are referring to Open 149. How exactly did saberwolf play the newbie card?

Alduskkel · Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:15 am

Well, I'm not going to give my scum meta. That would be just silly.

I think it's become abundantly clear that saberwolf is NOT going to replace out like he claimed he would. So he was just appealing to emotion then. The way I saw it, either we got a better player or we'd call saberwolf's bluff.

Confirm Vote: saberwolf

.

Alduskkel · Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:25 am

saberwolf, maybe you could the game and write down your thoughts as they come so that you don't even need to retain anything?

Alduskkel · Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:25 am

"could the game"-->"could reread the game"

Alduskkel · Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:07 pm

Yeah, I'm totally obvscum

Needless to say all this just makes me even more suspicious of Chinaman. I am fine with his or saberwolf's lynches.

Alduskkel · Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:49 pm

You're at L-1 again btw.

Alduskkel · Wed Oct 07, 2009 7:58 pm

^:goodposting:^

Unvote, Vote: Chinaman

. I think he's giving saberwolf too much credit as a player, imo (no offense). That's a pretty elaborate plan for saberwolf-scum to pull off.

Alduskkel · Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:51 pm

I think there's too much of Chinaman's defense that relies on "it's just my play style that comes across as inconsistent," and "d3x knows I do this when I'm pro-Town." Plus Chinaman has admitted to some of the screw ups, in particular the "1-2 of the following 6 people are scum" slip.

Alduskkel · Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:52 pm

But speaking of which, d3x, how similar is Chinaman's play style in this game to his Town play style in your opinion?

Alduskkel · Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:40 pm

CM, obviously it's scummier to defend against a valid point than to concede to it, but the fact of the matter is is that it's still a valid point. The fact that you have to concede to it, and don't have a good explanation really, is scummy.

And I think it's weird how you act like d3x has called you pro-Town based on your meta. He didn't.

Alduskkel · Sat Oct 10, 2009 1:09 pm

CM: Yeah, you're scummier.

AT: While I agree that SW needs to answer the questions before deadline, I think it's ridiculous to say that if we don't lynch SW

today

then we've given him immunity for the rest of the game.

Alduskkel · Sat Oct 10, 2009 4:17 pm

CM, you have:
-Been inconsistent.
-Put AT up for the lynch over confirmed scum, then when you got flak for it you claimed it was a gambit and changed your vote again.
-Your scum slip.
-When MCD called you on it, you initially ignored it; this is basically what made me so suspicious of AT before.
-You misrepresented d3x's meta read on you (town -- he actually said it's null) and in my opinion are trying to coax him into defending you; to have a town player do your work for you, basically.

The case on saberwolf gives a bit too much credit to saberwolf as a player I think. And if his record is anything to go by, he's not a very good Town player in general, so that might be what's going on here. Nonetheless, I still think he's scum with you. Notably you helped pull votes off him.

Also I had a Town read on pablito.

@Kise: Vote now then. Take a damned stance. If you think you can just coast through the game without doing something then you are mistaken.

Alduskkel · Sat Oct 10, 2009 4:20 pm

The last part also goes for SW. You said you'd scum hunt, but you've yet to deliver.

Alduskkel · Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:31 am

Chinaman wrote:-I have been inconsistent in who I think is scum? As in I don't know who and have gone around to pretty much everyone except you (after confirmation) with suspicion? Or is it something else? If it's not, then what do you think I should do? Tunnel one person? I told you already that I don't know who's scum and who's town. It would then make sense for me to suspect everyone right?

*sigh* People have pointed out before how you've been inconsistent. You even defended against them. Now you suddenly don't remember?

Chinaman wrote:-I did a re-read of this "flak" you are saying I got for the AT thing. It really wasn't anything.

Hardly.
1347: d3x votes for you.
1351: AndyTony seems at least somewhat suspicious of you.
1354: pablito votes for you.
And Kdub questioned you. That's not really significant though.

Chinaman wrote:-Not a scumslip and I already explained this. Honest mistakes...can town players not make them?

They can, but it's more likely for scum to do it. Just because Town players can do it doesn't mean it isn't a scum tell.

Chinaman wrote:Could you please post where I misrepresented d3x's meta.

Chinaman wrote:So please, if you could, find exactly where I [...] tried to coax him into defending me because I obviously missed it.

Okay:

Chinaman, iso 44 wrote:Just ask d3x, he knows and can verify.

Chinaman, iso 54 wrote:just ask d3x.

Chinaman, iso 62 wrote:Seriously d3x, you know that if I were scum, I would not just post my thoughts as they came. You know me and like you said, I'm better than that. If I were scum, would I really play this way, in your honest assessment of me outside this forum?

Chinaman wrote:Why did you have a town read on pablito?

I wrote a whole post SOLELY to explain this. I'm not going to explain it again. Before you ask, look!

AndyTony: Okay, I guess I can understand that. But I know that I at least am not going to give SW slack. If he fails to post content before the deadline then I'll definitely give him flak for it, while also pressuring him to post content.

And yeah, I am basically telling SW if he's scum how to avoid looking scummier to me, but I'm willing to pay that price if it causes him to post more content. I think that, with more info from him that we could get a better read on him and cancel out any sort of scum tell dodging that would result from me posting this.

If that makes sense.

Alduskkel · Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:34 am

EBWOP: Left this CM quote adrift without responding to it.

Chinaman wrote:Could you please post where I misrepresented d3x's meta.

Chinaman, iso 62 wrote:You [d3x]say my play matches my town meta

Alduskkel · Sun Oct 11, 2009 5:34 pm

Being wrong isn't a scum tell, unless it contradicts your Town meta.

Chinaman wrote:also, you totally ignored my statement of who you are going to look at once I flip town if I'm lynched.

You didn't ask me. You directed it at MCD and d3x.

I would look at Kise and MCD (in that order). Maybe Kdub. SW goes without saying. I'm fairly confident that d3x and AT are pro-Town.

Alduskkel · Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:13 pm

MCD, I'm surprised that you didn't ask about the fact that I said I'd look at you if CM flipped Town.

Alduskkel · Mon Oct 12, 2009 3:53 pm

Already happened.

Chinaman wrote:I am vanilla town.

Why do you want to know, SW?

Alduskkel · Mon Oct 12, 2009 4:15 pm

I think SW just means that it's very plain wording that doesn't give much info. I can't get anything from it, can you?

Alduskkel · Mon Oct 12, 2009 4:16 pm

And d3x, shouldn't you be happy that SW is contributing? I am (it helps that I'm the one who suggested he do this[/egoinflation]).

Alduskkel · Mon Oct 12, 2009 4:20 pm

Did you want CM to claim again and then to compare the two claims?

Alduskkel · Mon Oct 12, 2009 5:09 pm

I don't really understand the italicized part here, saberwolf.

saberwolf wrote:MCD seems intent on clearing any suspicion away from AndyTony by
making sure all related questions are answers so that they can be disproven.

saberwolf wrote:I really don't like post 254 and 255 by Occ/AndyTony. They're rolefishing

I'm sure AndyTony has tried to explain this, but I can't remember the post number or even if it was a good explanation.

saberwolf wrote:According to Odd's 264 he points out pitstop has been aggressively been attacking AndyTony, so there might be no connection there.

Hmm, I don't think Pitstop was going after AndyTony that hard. Just look at his posts, he doesn't even FoS AndyTony, let alone vote him. There's no big case or anything.

saberwolf wrote:Ceph doesn't think that AndyTony is playing like his usual town self.

I can't find where Cephrir says this. I think what he said was that AT wasn't playing like his scum self.

saberwolf wrote:by post 345 the hatred between zero and AndyTony is so obvious that I cannot consider it bussing, they are definitely not scumbuddies.

I don't know, if AndyTony was already angry with Zer0ph34r he could have been just venting in a more Townie sort of way. I don't think AT is scum, but this isn't the reason why.

saberwolf wrote:post 358, zero (CM) self votes and kinda gives up. IMO it's much more likely of a town move than scum

It's my understanding that while Zer0 regularly selfvotes as Town, he's also aware of this meta. So I don't think it's a strong indicator either way. Also, he was aware that people were aware of his meta.

saberwolf wrote:page 16 has me thinking

If CM does flip scum, D3X is the scumbuddy based on The Replacements posts.

I think you mean... post. 386. Anyway, I can see how 386 would get you thinking that the scum team is CM-d3x, but I'm surprised you think it's strong of an indicator.

Also, you say:

saberwolf wrote:Watching Kdub's and AT's preemptive attacks on Khamisa before day 2 started, I lean towards them both ebing town.

then say

saberwolf wrote:ScumChinaman, Andytony

Alduskkel · Mon Oct 12, 2009 5:16 pm

That really only answers the last part of my post, SW.

Alduskkel · Mon Oct 12, 2009 5:32 pm

saberwolf wrote:According to one of the AT posts, I'm sure it was town and not scum

Which one?

Alduskkel · Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:48 pm

I think AndyTony is being pretty naive if he thinks the case on CM is only hypothetical. I'd go so far as to call it reverse-tunneling.

Alduskkel · Tue Oct 13, 2009 1:17 pm

I'm tunneling? You're the one who hasn't even responded to 1929 and 1930.

Alduskkel · Tue Oct 13, 2009 4:47 pm

Look Chinaman, I'm not saying SW is Town. I think he's scum. I think you're more likely to be scum though. I've explained why. If you expect me to respond to all that and make the case that SW is pro-Town then you are sorely mistaken.

I do think the case is being greatly exaggerated though. I could go over why, but ultimately we agree that SW is scum. I don't care to exchange pointless walls of text that will end with us both having the exact same opinions as when we started.

And Chinaman, calm the hell down. It's a game. Stop calling for SW's ban if he's Town. God. JUST CHILL.

Alduskkel · Thu Oct 15, 2009 10:53 am

I'm starting to think that the scum team is CM-Kise, and that Kise just wants to look good when SW flips Town/make SW look bad when Kise flips scum.

Alduskkel · Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:22 pm

I agree with d3x, except maybe about Kise being scummier. In general I find my Town reads are better than my Scum reads. I'm not as sure about MCD than he is, but that's just kind of a slight gut reaction... also I'm somewhat scared of the possibility of d3x scum so I don't think I'll ever be really confident in any read I have of him.

Also, I'm a bit concerned that Kdub is getting something of a free pass, even though it doesn't feel like he's done much more than be one of the first people on the Khamisa wagon.

Alduskkel · Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:01 am

Vote: No Lynch

. This is our best play, but I can't say why. Just trust me here.

Alduskkel · Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:21 am

Fine then AndyTony -- the plan's definitely ruined now. But I already used it last night; saberwolf is confirmed Town.

Alduskkel · Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:21 am

By the way,

Vote: Chinaman

.

Alduskkel · Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:25 am

The more I said the less effective the plan would have been. I was really hoping we could get Chinaman confirmed (or denied) too, but I picked saberwolf since he obviously would be the one to look worse with a Kise scum flip.

I find it annoying that you think scum would have caught on to the plan when they obviously didn't see it coming last Night.

Alduskkel · Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:31 am

That's why I wanted to hold onto the "saberwolf is Town" knowledge.

Alduskkel · Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:36 pm

Unvote

.

The plan is a sure-fire win for the Town. Doctor, claim.

Alduskkel · Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:37 pm

MCD, claim then.

Alduskkel · Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:44 pm

*shrug* I think lynching AndyTony is the quickest way to end the game, but it doesn't matter in the long run.

Vote: Kdub

.

Alduskkel · Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:45 pm

Unvote

. We actually need to wait for AndyTony to see if he counterclaims. Then we're good to go.

Alduskkel · Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:56 pm

By the way, I targeted AndyTony on Night 3. So I guess Kise made the kill. (Given AndyTony's reactions to the plan vs. everyone else's reaction I'd say AT is our last scumbag.)

Alduskkel · Sun Oct 18, 2009 3:00 pm

Wait, we can actually just proceed without hearing from AndyTony if we lynch him. If he flips Doctor, we lynch MCD and win. If he flips Scum we win. If he flips Vanilla then I target Chinaman, and whoever is scum between Kdub and Chinaman can't/won't make a kill (If Kdub killed then it would expose him as scum, since Chinaman can't make a kill), so we'll be left with 5 alive:
Kdub
CM
Me
MCD
SW
We lynch CM, then Kdub (order doesn't matter though) for the win.

Vote: AndyTony

.

Alduskkel · Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:31 am

Didn't see AndyTony scum coming. I thought he was scum earlier, but by the end I was pretty convinced he was Town until he reacted so poorly to the winning plan, at which point it didn't matter.

Can't say my play was that great this game, but at the very least I was suspicious of Khamisa and Kise -- even if I wasn't on their wagons. And I think I made good JK choices.

I wish I had kept tunneling on AndyTony. Oh well.

@AndyTony: If you had just no-killed then you would have probably won.

Alduskkel · Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:36 am

Hmm, I looked at the game, and if AT hadn't killed d3x then he probably would have won. I can explain it, but it's complicated.

Alduskkel · Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:27 am

Lol, you guys thought I'd pick up Kise's fake breadcrumb? I'm terrible at picking up any sort of power role tells. I never even thought about who could be the Doctor in this game.

Also, I never even considered targeting Kise. Most of the time I was trying to act like a Doctor, not a Roleblocker.

I wonder if Kise should have counterclaimed me.

Alduskkel · Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:42 pm

@AndyTony: Was I right about you when I kept going on and on about you lying and then ignoring me in the hopes that it would just blow over?

Alduskkel · Mon Oct 19, 2009 3:12 pm

Based on the QT, I'm surprised MCD

wasn't

night killed. It sounded like you guys were onto him for a while.

Also, I keep forgetting to say this: I had fun playing with you all

(except hohum)

, and thanks to Crazy for modding!

Alduskkel · Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:29 pm

I'd still like to hear Khamisa's epic secret.