Open 201 - Fire & Ice Mafia ~Over~

[farside22]

/confirm

Hey kmd!!!

[farside22]

Dude, my quote is very important when analyzing night actions.

It means if that if a doctor prevents a kill, we cannot use the doctor to clear the person from being X mafia or Y mafia

.

Aka, from that rule: Cross kills cannot happen.

Hence why that note from CSL is very important. But at the same time if a mafia fails to kill someone, it is just as likely that person is the opposing mafia.

It means mafia

can only be lynched

. If you fail to see the significance of that role note in the further days then you fail to catch mafia.

That's only important to know if no one dies. However with cross kills the doc still doesn't know he saved a townie or scum since there are two separate mafia groups. So this makes no sense to point out.

post 47: Actually the longing makes sense but I think who ever the doc is I hope is good a breadcrumbing results because I don't want to see a day 2 claim.

That said I don't see how DTMaster pointing this rule out is scummy.

vote: Kmd4390

[farside22]

Although the mafia could use the doc with no kill and leading to WIFOM.

If the doc protects someone and a player dies. That player is either town or scum. However depending on if fire or ice killed one player it will at least confirm for the doc that the player they saved wasn't part of that mafia group.
So I disagree a kmd that it's completely useless.

[farside22]

Although the mafia could use the doc with no kill and leading to WIFOM.

If the doc protects someone and a player

lives

. That player is either town or scum. However depending on if fire or ice killed one player it will at least confirm for the doc that the player they saved wasn't part of that mafia group.
So I disagree a kmd that it's completely useless.

Sorry bolded the error I made.

[farside22]

If the doc protects someone and a player lives. That player is either town or scum. However depending on if fire or ice killed one player it will at least confirm for the doc that the player they saved wasn't part of that mafia group.
So I disagree a kmd that it's completely useless.

What did you not understand from the above?
doc protects player
one player is dead instead of two come morning.
doc knows based on type of kill that player is not part of that mafia.

[farside22]

Pom, it looked like he was looking at things that are more important to scum than to town, but after his explanation, I see I was mistaken.

Wait, we know which scum group made which kill?

did you read the set up?

CSLMod wrote:
Welcome to Open 201, Player! You, and (XXX) are here to end the town very peacefully arctic style!

You are a member of the Ice Mafia. Your QT is here. You have one shared ability to Night Freeze ONCE PER NIGHT!

You win if all opposing forces are dead, or your faction has them by their deathbed (50% of population) Confirm IN THREAD

CSLMod wrote:
Welcome to Open 201, Player! You, along with (XXX) are here to burn them to ashes.

You are a member of the Fire Mafia. You have a QT, here. You have a shared ability to Night Burn once per night.

You win if you cover half of the population, or nothing can prevent this. Confirm in thread.

[farside22]

Jim targets Jill. Tom targets Jim. Bob protects Jim.
Jill dies. Jim doesn't die because he was targeted by Ice Mafia. Therefore the doctor was null and void in this case and we learn nothing.

Or let's say Bob protects Jill. We don't know if Jill is townie or mafia because no one died. Even if doctor claimed that he protected Jill, Jill could probably be mafia. Am I missing the point you're making? In your latest point you're just speculating. We might know we don't know, and speculating will get us nowhere.

Ah I missed that mafia cannot cross kill. That wasn't in the last fire/ice game if I recall. So even if someone doesn't die the doc doesn't know if he protected the right person or if one of the scum teams tried to kill another scum team.


SK: What did you think was speculation? We are discussing the mechanics of the game as far as I can tell and if the doc is useful or not.
Which DTMaster had brought up and I didn't find scummy and explain why not.

[farside22]

farside22, TQO, and kmd4390 have all received a PUBLIC HUMILIATION for continuing to talk about the setup. Nothing happens this time, BUT PLEASE BE AWARE OF THE UNWRITTEN RULE "Do not try to outguess the mod, or his/her setup. It will get you nowhere."

Not too humilate tbh. I'm answering questions and making notes which is part of scum hunting.

On that note I need to go back and reread something. I don't completely agree with kmd's list but kmd's recent comments do lead to town motive now.

unvote:

[farside22]

DTMaster said penguin
morph said penguin
DTmaster votes morph for picking penguin. A bit hypocritical me thinks.

SaintKerrigan: 4 people were discussing the setup why did you pick me amoung the people discussing it?

I agree with DTMaster post 68

morph - not really contributing/floating so far. null read
pomergrante/elf - both these players are on my null read as well. elf with one post offers nothing so far to the game
pom at least asking questions and trying to understand things.
so far like pomergrante more then elf.

gheb - post 80 I typically agree with you there but I'm starting to learn that those who start having town vibes and get a group that feels more townish win games more then not. Also since there are 2 seperate mafia groups you kind of hope they pick the same player to attack so there is no kill for the night.

I'm torn between morph and elf as people I feel haven't contributed. Elf states busy but I remember lurky people in MM game where she said nothing and was scum so she's just someone I will look out for more.
SK isn't seeming town to me at all and this is were I disagree with KMD. Someone following others and not saying too much but one liners is not a town read at all.
morph is another not much contributer who I dont' see really helping move this game forward or offering much as far as good advice even with the set up talks.

vote: SK

By far the person who has been here the most and offered less then anyone here. Following others like Kmd and places a vote on one player over others that are all discussing the setup.

[farside22]

@SK if this is true about your vote on me what about thelonging?

@ Farside: How am I following others? Doesn't the fact that I came up with the same thing KMD did about DTMaster on my own evidence that I wasn't following him? Not to mention I was the first person to say setup discussion wasn't helping us catch scum.

Kmd was the first to vote DTMaster for unknown reason. You followed this saying you know (which neither of you pointed out by the way). So to me I don't like people say guess what I found.

Also your talking about setup speculation = scum but do you think one liners with no other discussion looks town?

[farside22]

@kmd

Animorph, you told the doc not to claim if they think they successfully protected a player.

Any competent doc wouldn't do that in the first place.

It was your only content post at the time and basically said nothing.

You're avoiding contributing to any kind of discussion

and I find that scummy.

But what if we have a docwho's never been a doc before?

I can't contribute much unbtill i find someone scummy.

FOS: Morph

Your job is to scum hunt. The least you can do is talk about players and what you think and not just say well I can't contribute.

Also when quoting someone you need to put a quotation mark before (") and after their name (")

[farside22]

farside22, what's your favorite Open setup that is being run? (Bonus: Does it have any interesting mechanics?)

Not sure how this question helps with finding scum.
I can't believe 4 people just said they didn't have anything from the discussion as far as scum suspects.

[farside22]

I missed something in my post sorry.

As for those that have nothing to add. Please see the quote and do as it says.

The least you can do is talk about players and what you think and not just say well I can't contribute.

unvote:
vote: Slaxx

This by far the worst reason and vote out there. Says there that everything was a waste of talk. Voting RVS at this point is a waste.

[farside22]

"I have no reads" is less scummy and more productive then: "I vote Pom just cause?"

elf/morph/slaxx/pom all said the same thing which is I have nothing.
Slaxx expended on that by calling it a waste of time and doing an RVS vote.
Pom's questions at large are useless to scum hunting.
I have 1 vote and went to the one player who's comment struck me as the summiest of the bunch. I almost wanted to roll a die on who to vote for.

[farside22]

Yes, my questions at large don't have much use for scumhunting. I knew that when I posted them. They are there to spark discussion, as it seemed to be lagging. Scumhunting comes from discussion.

So the past five pages gave you no insight to anyone at all?

[farside22]

Mod: Please post the deadline in the vote count.

DTMaster what is the difference between Slaxx and mavsfan41
Note:

Slaxx - start date 01/01/10. # of post 4
mavsfan41 - start date 01/10/10. # of post 2

Basically Slaxx had too more post then mavsfan and slaxx had said pretty much next to nothing this game too.
So what is your point between them?

Also note there are 2 scum teams not 1 scum team. pairing 4 players together as one doesn't really make sense this game.

[farside22]

@Farside

1.Slaxx just corrected his RVS vote. If you do a quick Iso read, he's responding to the lack of update on his vote or miscount on his vote. In terms of both players I'll break it down into 3 components, content, actions, and general posts.

Content and posts are agreeable to be the same, but Slaxx is actually doing something by voting. I might agree, like you that it could have been a better vote but Mav and Ani aren't providing anything.

This to me is scummier then Slaxx. A RVS is better then thin air when we have a week deadline for day 1, especially when you posted 2 hours after CSL's post, rather then Slaxx's 6 minutes.

2. Scratch that you are scum. Only scum would care about lynching specific factions. Seriously, we have 2 teams of 2 which equals two 4 scum players that we have to lynch. How does it not make sense to list off your top 4 suspects? I don't know what factions these 4 players are in together, if they are scum they are just scum.

If you have to justify whether or not they are "fire" or "ice" now that's just silly.

Unvote. Vote farside22

.

Your putting four players together as one scum group how does that help exactly when there is two scum groups?

So a vote from many pages ago doesn't count, it's still an RVS vote and he doesn't carry on the conversation in anyway. States the speculation takes away from scum hunting (doesn't scum hunt) and repeats his vote and this makes him town in some way over slaxx?

I think I know who slaxx scum partner is folks

[farside22]

Farside already looking for scum partners 6 pages in is kind of ridiculous. We have no confirmed guilties or innocents besides ourselves. Buddying up/ sucking up is one thing, but I see none of that in any posts so far.

Why is it that DTmaster mentions a scum group and you don't say boo to him?

Also my post is in response to how he acted when I comment about him putting four people together in a group then anything.

Actually your post is much better here except for you repeating what DTMaster said about you, which I really dislike people doing for any reason.

Why did you wait to comment on things till now with more vigger? Why do you find the first few pages useless?

[farside22]

I really don't see it as a lack of conversation and I think that is where you and I don't see it as the same.
That said your comments have indeed improved and thus no longer scummy.

unvote:
vote: mavs

[farside22]

@DTMaster
Just looking at your group of scum it seems 3 people are because of mavsen, including mavsen. Morph is on his own. It seemed to me your matching players up based on what they say in regards to him, again except morph.

[farside22]

So you put mild pressure on a person, they put up at least a halfway logical answer, and then you unvote and vote on the next best target? I'm not saying I ever believed Slaxx of being scummy, but what are you gonna do when Mav eventually finds his way back to this thread and posts a mildly logical argument against your vote?

It seems like your just going after mildly inactive easy targets rather than really believing these guys to be scum. Which would explain why your not exactly being aggressive in your pursuits, but I still don't like how you're just bouncing around without really solidifying your scumtells. But I'm still waiting on hearing from Ani and Mav about the accusations brought to them before I consider you strongly. sooo

PoS (pinky of suspicion): Farside22.

My vote on slaxx was for lack of participation in the game at hand or did you miss my reason's for voting for him.

mavs is definately one of the players that offered nothing this game. However his nothing is less then morph (still suspect) pop (pointless questions do not provoke scum hunting) elf (I'm busy but here's a post)
Elf and morph are dangerously close for who I find scummier based or their post but still offer just that little bit more then mansv.

[farside22]

Reading the post where Farside votes Saint, and Saint's reaction, I can see Saint as scum.

Thank you I need to remind myself about this since he went on V/LA that I still think he is scum and that hasn't changed, but mansv lynch is more then what The Quintastic One. There is a thing call content. Providing and moving the game along. Saying it's a lurker lynch is really downplaying the reasoning behind mansv.

[farside22]

farside because of her argument over listing four scum.

As I said I thought DTMaster was trying to group 3 out of 4 players into one group, when there is two separate alliances. If he said I find x, y, z and a scum and here is why I would not even have said boo about 2 seperate scum groups but when 3 people are lumped into 1 group it's just a reminder there are 2 seperate groups. Looking for links between players is a good thing.
Manvs by the way I saw he was online and didn't post here. Lurking, not posting (aka avoiding) ups him as scum even more for me as avoiding a game and not wanting to answer is typically a scum move.
morph: Please explain who I went from town to scum with that write up of yours?

[farside22]

I would like to replace mavsfan rather than risk a mislynch due to little information. I really don't want to mislynch a lurker in this setup.

*cough*

Manvs by the way I saw he was online and didn't post here.

Why do you think it would be a mislynch?

[farside22]

I don't necessary think he would be a mislynch, rather that with his grand total of 2 posts we have very little to determine if he is scum or not. It would basically just be a gamble, and the odds are better that he is town. Apparently he is going to be "force replaced" (far stronger than a normal replacement), and so I don't see any reason why we shouldn't wait to see what his replacement has to say.

Why would a player that is town avoid posting in a game that they are being accused in?

[farside22]

Votecount 1.7 (As of my last post)

Sanhora -6- kmd4390, The Quintastic One, DTMaster, TheLonging, farside22, Pomegranate

Pomegranate -1- Slaxx
farside22 -1- Gayle

Not voting: Sanhora, xofelf, Gheb, animorpherv1

With

12

alive, it's

7

to lynch

animorpherv1's vote did not count because it was not bold.

Sanhora replaces mavsfan

---

@Gayle

Doesn't the fact that he only posted 2 times up to now bother you? I can't think of any town-alligned reason to play that way, especially since it has been reported that he visited mafiascum a couple of times.

Well, I don't automatically assume he is playing that way intentionally. There are any number of reasons for a person to lurk. He could have two posts because he is scum. He could have two posts because he has no idea where to start with this game. It is risky to make assumptions and lynch him, when we can wait for the replacement and form an opinion with a stronger foundation.

And of course nothing about the fact there is are votes on him and he is avoiding the game is looked upon as town why again? With comments about his post and lack there for.
He can and should be in here defending himself. Not lurking and avoiding a game. There is no town reason for that.

[farside22]

Just to make sure I get this right (WCS)

8 town, 2 Fire , 2 Ice (D1)

We mislynch 7 town, 2 Fire, 2 Ice (N1)

both kills go through 5 town, 2 Fire, 2 Ice (D2)

mislynch 3 town, 2 Fire, 2 Mafia (N2)

both kills go through 1 town, 2 fire, 2 Ice (D3) (guaranteed loss)

mislynch 0 town, 2 Fire, 2 Ice (N3) (DRAW)

So we have 1 or 2 mislynches in WCS, with no Mafia lynched.

That's worse case but you missed the doc. You missed the fact that mafia targeting each other can me 1 less death for any of those days.

[farside22]

And of course nothing about the fact there is are votes on him and he is avoiding the game is looked upon as town why again? With comments about his post and lack there for.
He can and should be in here defending himself. Not lurking and avoiding a game. There is no town reason for that.

Of course?

What?

When did I say that mavsfan looked like town? I said that lynching mavsfan is a gamble. A mavsfan lynch is essentially a policy lynch as there is not even a semblance of a case against him. He has two posts, therefore he is scum. You saw him online, therefore he is scum. Who knows why he was online? Who knows why he only has two posts? With the town to scum ratio, a mislynch is particularly bad. There is no reason to rush a lynch now when we can get a replacement to help us get a better read.

Vote: Farside22

for pursuing this ridiculous lynch so strongly.

Lets click the problems with your comments so far
1) talks about it as a mislynch
2) says maybe the person has nothing to talk about and doesn't know how to get into the game
3) calls it a lurker lynch
4) keeps avoiding the fact that mansv was see on MS and did not post in this game even to defend himself and you want to point to me as scum?

@myko: Did you see elf post or come on the site at all or avoid this game?

The amount of defense that Gayle is giving masvan leads me to believe they could be scum together. So far she hasn't said one town reason to avoid posting in the game and does a vote calling me pushing the case when clearly I'm pushing her for answers of this defense.

[farside22]

I don't necessary think he would be a mislynch, rather that with his grand total of 2 posts we have very little to determine if he is scum or not.

It would basically just be a gamble, and the odds are better that he is town

. Apparently he is going to be "force replaced" (far stronger than a normal replacement), and so I don't see any reason why we shouldn't wait to see what his replacement has to say.

This seems to me gayle saying mansv is town stating odds but not expanding on why the odds of him being town are grater then scum.

[farside22]

How many times you calling someone with 2 post that just got replaced town gayle?

I even posted your quote where you said most likely town.
So you know this person's alignment and thoughts and feelings based on what again?

[farside22]

One last time gayle. What player do you know that is town that purposely avoids a game where they are the main target of a lynch?

[farside22]

One last time, Farside. Prove to me that Mavsfan was purposely avoiding the game.

You know the profile and searching for post are down but I you lynch me see I flip town and know I was telling the truth about masv

Your gamble is all calling mans town over scum. You haven't stated a reason you find the dude town even when I point out I saw him online and now you want proof afterwards.........

yup pretty sure gayle is scum twisting in the wind.

sanhora since you are the party being disussed between myself and gayle. What is your view on the argument.

@Farside
-Why did you vote KMD over SK in post 48?
-What did you mean with '@Myko' in post 182?

As for why I picked kmd or sk. Kmd is harder for me to read as town or as scum. I wanted to pressure kmd to see if I could read him get a view on his alignment and I felt no closer but sk started comming off as scummier to me.

Oh that was supposed to be morph not myko.
myko's going to be upset I confused the two of them.

[farside22]

Oh and let me confirm mansv was indeed online here.

MOD: Can you please tell us if Mansv picked up the prods you sent out to him or if they are still in your out box.

Thank you.

[farside22]

Gayle said that mansv is a mislynch
gayle said that mansv is more likely town then scum with no reason.
At no time did gayle ever say that mansv could be scum.

unvote:
vote: Gayle

some either knows a players alignment or is helping said scum buddy.

[farside22]

I would like to replace mavsfan rather than risk a mislynch due to little information. I really don't want to mislynch a lurker in this setup.

I don't necessary think he would be a mislynch, rather that with his grand total of 2 posts we have very little to determine if he is scum or not. It would basically just be a gamble, and the odds are better that he is town. Apparently he is going to be "force replaced" (far stronger than a normal replacement), and so I don't see any reason why we shouldn't wait to see what his replacement has to say.

A mavsfan lynch is essentially a policy lynch as there is not even a semblance of a case against him. He has two posts, therefore he is scum. You saw him online, therefore he is scum. Who knows why he was online? Who knows why he only has two posts? With the town to scum ratio, a mislynch is particularly bad. There is no reason to rush a lynch now when we can get a replacement to help us get a better read.

I point to you as scum because I cannot verify he actually did as you say and even if he was online, you have no idea why or what kind of reason he might have for not posting. Your reason for lynching him is pure speculation. Yet you push to lynch him rather than waiting for his replacement.

1st quote mislynch comment
2nd quote talks about it as a gamble say mas town over scum with no reason
Although saying the last two quote refuses to answer the question of why a person who is town would refuse to post in a game they are suspect in.

[farside22]

Gayle said that mansv is a mislynch
gayle said that mansv is more likely town then scum with no reason.
At no time did gayle ever say that mansv could be scum.

unvote:
vote: Gayle

some either knows a players alignment or is helping said scum buddy.

Now you've taken to ignoring my posts entirely, I see.

Look at my newest comment and tell me where it's wrong

[farside22]

Dear Miss Farside,

How many times do I have to repeat that I didn't call Mavsfan town? How many times do I have to repeat that there is not sufficient evidence to prove that he is either town or scum? How many times do I have to repeat that if there is not enough evidence for a read, then the result is essentially a gamble? How many times do I have to repeat that in that gamble we have far more likely a chance of lynching town than scum? How many times are you going to twist my words and ignore the actual meaning of my argument? How many [continued on reverse]

One you never said that you said most likely town

"You'll be sorry when I flip town!" Standard scum procedure. Also, her flip is somehow indicative of Mavsfan's alignment.

Nope it's me letting the town know I think you are scum with mans and if my lynch is something that is needed to prove I'm telling the truth about mansv and seeing him online and not only only but looking in on Little Italy then I'm more then happy to have it happen as long as the town remembers this and knows I'm being truthful afterward.

[farside22]

Farside:

It is wrong, as I have already explained, time after time. You refuse to acknowledge my explanations at all. Arguing further with you is a waste of time.

Farside is scum.
DTM is scum.
These are facts.

Now I'm going to take a look at TQO.

yup ignores the quotes where she even said

I don't necessary think he would be a mislynch

Even when she used the word mislynch too. She just can't take back her words.

Look the OMGUS on top especially with DTM.

My quotes are facts so far you have no facts at all.

[farside22]

Oh Gayle I notice you continue to ignore this most valid point

why a person who is town would refuse to post in a game they are suspect in.

[farside22]

I don't have to list a town reason for lurking. He could be lurking for any reason. You prove that Mavsfan doesn't have a good reason not to be here. I'm not defending Mavsfan, I'm trying to tell town why it is a bad idea to lynch a person for lurking right now.

You know why you have to answer this because gayle the fact is you are defending this players action.

Well, I don't automatically assume he is playing that way intentionally. There are any number of reasons for a person to lurk. He could have two posts because he is scum. He could have two posts because he has no idea where to start with this game.

When you state this it gives 2 options. Well we are not at the start of the game so again why would a player who is town not come in and lurk and avoid posting when they are the prime suspect?

[farside22]

I've answered it time and time again. Prove to me that he was refusing to post in this game.

All I can do is ask the mod which I did. As you know there is no way to find a post per player on a day any more so your.
What will you do when the mod confirms he picked up his prod. What little hole will you take then?

[farside22]

MOD: Can you please tell us if Mansv picked up the prods you sent out to him or if they are still in your out box?

Thank you.

He picked up his prod, posted, and then didn't post in 48 hours. That's a force-replace.

[farside22]

I would then ask you to prove to me that he was refusing to post in this game.

Last time with feeling. Why would a player that is being accused in a game not post to defend themselves if they were in fact town?

[farside22]

Prove to me that the reason he wasn't posting is because he is being accused in this game.

I have asked you 4 times this question and now you want me to prove he wasn't posting in here when there is 3 to 4 votes in here and he picked up his prod and you see this as something normal?
You see nothing sinister or scummy with a person who avoids a game that they are the prime suspect?
Your going to say that a person who knows they are being prodded would just ignored the prod and not at least respond in some way when they picked up that prod and this just rings nothing remotely questionable?

[farside22]

Farside, my point is that

Mavsfan's motives cannot be known

. You say that he was purposefully avoiding the thread. I say that there is no way to prove that he was purposefully avoiding the thread. At the time, lynching because of such a thing was a bad idea, because there was no other reason for him to be suspected as scum. Lynching him was more likely to result in a townie lynch than a scum lynch. I wanted us to instead wait for the replacement. Which part of this do you not understand?

I stated I saw him online looking in Little Italy. You don't want to believe me because why?
Also if the mod says he picked up his prod. That means he was here on MS. Which means he was around, which means avoiding playing in this game.
There is no well maybe this, or maybe that.
You can't say well he picked up his prod but maybe he was busy. So what he just came online to just check a few things and left without a word? Is that your view.
Again what town reason is there to avoid posting.
You know why he was suspected. First DT master had a point about his nonvote and seeing deadline in a week. That doesn't help the town
2. he posted 2 comments that offered nothing to the game saying he has nothing to add. It's not that hard to read things and make views on players. He did no of this along iwth Elf who I FOS'ed and Ani who I did the same with.
Saying there is nothing to comment is a COP-OUT I consider it scummy to the point of anti-town. Either way not town.

So unless you can prove to me he was not avoiding this game. Your defense of him just comes off as scummy trying to save a scum partner.

[farside22]

Gayle did you even read this post from CSL in regards to Mavsfan?

(The deadline might start getting here a little faster if I don't see a lot of posting. FIVE posts since 10pm. I should be seeing at least TEN. I'd even be happy with SEVEN.)

Also, in case you want to know. A regular prod takes two days to respond. A RAGEPROD takes only one. Mavsfan got a RAGEPROD because he's been posting in different areas. It's not activelurking I'm RPing him for, it's ignorance if this game. Anyways, if I see a few more posts happening between 10pm and 4pm, I might not move the deadline at all. If it moves, it moves closer, with the exception of a replacement so close to deadline. I would push it to give the replacements more breathing room. I know I might sound like a madmod, but I'm testing to see how well you guys do under deadline pressure, especially close to the start of the game. Anyways, good luck!

[farside22]

Mav has 1 more day. Animorpherv will be prodded, and I have prodded xofelf via AIM.

This was stated on the 3rd. The 4th was when the mod looked for a replacement.
Anyone want to tell me when the mod gave us that 1 week deadline after mansv posted?

[farside22]

Gayle did you even read this post from CSL in regards to Mavsfan?

And this proves that he was purposefully avoiding this game because of the accusation made against him? How does this make it better to lynch Mavsfan rather than waiting for his replacement?

Are you shitting me? Are you really serious? WHY WOULD A PLAYER THAT IS POSTING ELSE WHERE AVOID A GAME THEY ARE BEING ACCUSED IN IF THEY ARE TOWN?
Stop avoiding this. Because that post from CSL proves he was posting elsewhere when there was heat on him. It proves he was avoiding this game and now you have nothing to say other then ithat.

Lynch scum Gayle please

[farside22]

By the way mansv posted on the 1st of Feb. The mod gave him another day to post on the 3rd and searched for a replacement on the 4th?

Question to the mod:
Before searching for a replacement did you prod mansv again?

[farside22]

mavsfan

By the way, fixed.

I don't know why I keep seeing mans.

[farside22]

DTMaster I'm starting to agree with 3 people on your list now.

Gayle has asked for proof that masv was posting elsewhere. When given the proof she want's proof he's avoiding this game. Ummm duh he wasn't posting here when posting in other game. That in itself is all the proof.
I question Gayle because she has called it a mislynch, backtracked that statement and stated the player in question is more likely town then scum based on nothing at all.
When trapped with the fact the mod even stated he was posting elsewhere she say this:

And this proves that he was purposefully avoiding this game because of the accusation made against him? How does this make it better to lynch Mavsfan rather than waiting for his replacement?

What else would you call a player that is posting elsewhere but not in a game they are being accused?
I have seen this happen before but the game is currently in progress so I can't go further then say it looks to familiar to me to back down.

[farside22]

Going to keep up with this scummy argument, huh? I asked for proof that Mavsfan was purposefully avoiding this game. There is none.

What word would you use in place of avoid?
He is posting else in another game and not posting here. What other word would you use?

1) Lets see actually statement: You are calling it a mislynch (twice). This implies you know something about the lynch or alignment of a player

2) backtracks comment (not a mislynch) Calls it gambling stating the player has better odds of being town because why?
You still avoid the why of this?

Gayle: Do you wipe away the slate of a player who replaces another you find scummy? Why or why not?

[farside22]

First things first. Morph has incorrectly interpreted the reason I'm pushing Gayle. It has nothing to do with the person being replaced.

FOS: MORPH

farside22 wrote:
What word would you use in place of avoid?
He is posting else in another game and not posting here. What other word would you use?

The keyword isn't avoid, the keyword is purposefully.

If I see a player looking in on Little Italy who should be posting in here and doesn't. They are avoiding the game on purpose.
If you know a player is avoiding a game how can you say they are not avoiding it on purpose?

I don't care if someone replaces in a game where I find someone scummy. I'm not going to ignore the fact that the person was a newbie. Newbie typically as scum say little to nothing because they don't know how to respond as scum. This is what I see as a mod. The fact that the person who posting just once since this argument is typically not a good sign either.

So let me get this straight you think he's town because of the odd's %
Doesn't that mean anyone in this game has the same odds of being town that you just gave mavsfan? You do realize that there are 2 scum groups that can't kill each other and may actually want to lynch a player from the opposite alignment?

[farside22]

It's hard to paraphrase what the mod said but the best I can do is him asking me if I saw the dude posting elsewhere.
I pointed to him the game I saw him in and left it at that.

unvote:
vote: animorph

I'm starting to get that this is a town on town argument. But I don't think Gayle listens. It's not about a replacement to me. I don't care that CSL got a replacement. I see a player that is posting elsewhere. Got prodded and ignoring this game it's scummy. Lack of post is a newbie scum tell.
The reason I'm voting morph.
misinterperts the purpose of the vote. Offers nothing to the game. Active lurkering. All equal's scum.

[farside22]

CSL's 278 has me wondering if we are on the wrong track with Gayle...

This is why the mod shouldn't comment on discussion.

I think you are using it as an excuse though.

Explain clearly the reason you voted me, and the reason you unvoted.

@Farside:

Is the bottom of your 293 addressed to me? If it is you are still "misinterpreting" what I said. Also there is a difference between not listening and not agreeing.

No the bottom is the reason's I'm voting for morph.
sigh

[farside22]

@Farside:

Is the bottom of your 293 addressed to me? If it is you are still "misinterpreting" what I said. Also there is a difference between not listening and not agreeing.

Read the issues here. (1) your saying I'm misinterperting your post based on mislynch and saying someone is more likely town then scum because of %.
Is this wrong so far?
2) your saying you reconize now that he (mas) was avoiding but you want to pounce on the word purposely because you think purposely makes the fact he's avoiding the game worse or something?
If a player is avoiding a game how is it not on purpse? Please explain this becuase you have been holding this prove to me he was avoiding on purpose. When I showed he avoided the game that you have this attitude I can't even understand.

[farside22]

Are you talking about this post?

It's hard to paraphrase what the mod said but the best I can do is him asking me if I saw the dude posting elsewhere.
I pointed to him the game I saw him in and left it at that.

unvote:
vote: animorph

I'm starting to get that this is a town on town argument. But I don't think Gayle listens. It's not about a replacement to me. I don't care that CSL got a replacement. I see a player that is posting elsewhere. Got prodded and ignoring this game it's scummy. Lack of post is a newbie scum tell.
The reason I'm voting morph.
misinterperts the purpose of the vote. Offers nothing to the game. Active lurkering. All equal's scum.

[farside22]

Sorry you were talking about this post.
Then yes this was directed to gayle. I got post # mixed up.

So let me get this straight you think he's town because of the odd's %
Doesn't that mean anyone in this game has the same odds of being town that you just gave mavsfan? You do realize that there are 2 scum groups that can't kill each other and may actually want to lynch a player from the opposite alignment?

[farside22]

Are you now backtracking from this? Are you now calling the mod a liar too?

farside22 wrote:
What word would you use in place of avoid?
He is posting else in another game and not posting here. What other word would you use?

The keyword isn't avoid, the keyword is purposefully.

[farside22]

What word would you call it if a player is posting elsewhere on MS and not posting in this game if not the word avoiding?

You said

The keyword isn't avoid, the keyword is purposefully

That above is you saying

No, I don't recognize that he was avoiding the game. My whole argument was that we don't know if he was avoiding the game. The rest is semantics.

You can't have both. You can't say well yes he's posting elsewhere and then not have a defination or word to describe the word of him not posting in this game?

[farside22]

Also You keep either on purpose or blindly missing my comment where I state that I saw him looking in little italy and did not post in this game before he was replaced.
What would you say about a player that does that?

[farside22]

Also You keep either on purpose or blindly missing my comment where I state that I saw him looking in little italy and did not post in this game before he was replaced.
What would you say about a player that does that?

Farside, I am not missing your comment. I've already responded to similar effect of the reponse I am about to make: I would say he was posting in another game. That does not automatically mean he was avoiding this one. That does not automatically mean he is scum in this one.

This particular part of the argument is not going to get us anywhere. You are going to keep saying he was doing it on purpose, and I am going to keep saying we can't know if he was doing it on purpose. A proposal: Let's move on to something more productive.

I'm voting morph you should join that vote.

[farside22]

@gayle: Let me read up on kmd in isolation, but please do the same for morph

[farside22]

My isolated read of kmd:

Kmd why did you think what DTMaster's post was scummy?
I notice looking at KMD in isolation he has scum reads on Gayle (doesn't say why) morph (again no reason)
I think saying this:

Unvote, Vote Gayle cuz it's gonna be a fun bandwagon and I don't want to miss it.

Well, it still has the new bandwagon smell, so I'm taking it for a test drive. Gotta say I like the way it handles so far.

Gayle, placing the vote was enough to make you get all defensive. I think it served it's purpose.

Got to ask what do you expect any player to react when you give no reason for a vote?

Reason for voting for pom:

Vote Pom since I have town reads on the other 2, and know myself to be town. Also, her posts are kinda scummy.

Again no attached or viable reason given for thinking Pom = scum
The only post that showed any promise from KMD was the post he talked about those he thought were town and scum.
Most of his scum reads look to be gut but after words he hasnt' stated a viable reason why anyone of the players he voted for was scum.

in short: No reasoning, lack of scum hunting, voting for weak reason's. This doesn't not read Kmd town at all to me.

[farside22]

DT: What are your thoughts on kmd?
Do you think morph is scum?
Sorry I forgot who your voting. Arguing does this to me. Feedback is helpful.

[farside22]

And I still don't get why farside argues most of the day with Gayle about how mavsfan's play was anti-town when he votes Gayle for not agreeing. That's a clear contradiction of what she's advocating and of what she's actually doing.

I got the impression if you read the argument that Gayle was saying that mavsfan was town and had inside knowledge of that. That was orginally why I voted for her. The rest is us going back and forth on who misinterperted who. She things I misinterpts what she said. She wanted to hold out that mavsfan isn't avoiding the game but doesnt' want to place a word for a player that post elsewhere and doesn't post here. (the word is avoid by the way) I stated why I believe newbie scum wouldn't post in a game. Her argument is I'm twisting her words. We both agree to disagree and I'm voting morph.

Hope this helps all who wish to skip the argument completely.

[farside22]

I just read up on ani. I don't think that he is particularly scummy.

Can you expand on why that is? What it is that leads you to this view?

[farside22]

I still don't get the contradictions of some people's play. Pushing mav's lynch most of toDay but then giving similar players like xoxelf the free pass? That looks like selective scumhunting to me - if mav's play was anti-town then the same applies to xoxelf period.

Elf is a bit meta as whether scum or town she is never around or posting much of anything in any game.
Basically meta wise it's a null tell.

[farside22]

Right, just been catching up on the past fourteen pages of discussion, and am drawn to Farside becasue pushing home the point of Gayle as "scum", so

<b>Unvote</b>
<b>Vote: Farside 22</b>

I know your new so this is going to be IC moment.

When making a case you should point out quotes, comments things of that nature that give you the distiction of someone being scum. For example what made you think my push on Gayle was scum motivated and why?
What post or opinion I stated in the game gives you this view.

IC hat off.

[farside22]

Can you expand on why that is? What it is that leads you to this view?

I don't know what to expand on. I read him in iso, and I didn't really see anything all that scummy. His main problem seems to be that he doesn't have much content. While he warrants further investigation, I don't see a reason to vote him over you or kmd.

I think he's misterptation of the argument. His lack of content is ubber scum tells.

[farside22]

mod: I noticed the vote count. I'm voting for morph but he isn't voting for himself.

Thanks

[farside22]

Vote Animorph. Deadline coming up and he's lurking and has a wagon on him.

Another crap vote for crap reasons for a crap wagon.

I don't want to take my vote off of Farside, though. Pom, we are friends, right? Vote KMD for me. <-- Proper way to use friendship.

Scum Team 1: Farside + KMD

I can say the fact you didn't see anything on morph and the fact that he is clearly not scum hunting as a mark against you with him and you as a scum team.
I also came up with a case for KMD and would vote him in a lynch was needed but I believe morph scum over kmd.

[farside22]

(1)I can say the fact you didn't see anything on morph and the fact that he is clearly not scum hunting as a mark against you with him and you as a scum team.

I thought I was Mavsfan's scumbuddy? Or am I scum with anybody I don't find particularly scummy?

(2)I also came up with a case for KMD and would vote him in a lynch was needed but I believe morph scum over kmd.

I actually question the fact that you felt the need to build a case against him. I say "This is why KMD is scummy" and you respond by building a case on him. Seems like distancing.

---

(3)Can you clarify this statement for me?

in short: No reasoning, lack of scum hunting, voting for weak reason's. This doesn't not read Kmd town at all to me.

---

(4)<How I Originally Planned This Post>

I also came up with a case for KMD and would vote him in a lynch was needed but I believe morph scum over kmd.

You heard he likes riding bandwagons so you thought he might like a trip on the bus. <--

Lame

Awesome
</How I Originally Planned This Post>

1)I slept a bit on it and if someone is saying mislynch or more likely town then they are not scum together. It makes sense to me but I'm sure you don't understand that.
2) You stated you would rather lynch Kmd and had your points. I read him in isolation and made my points.
Call it what you think it is but your way off course.
3)Kmd isn't one I ever seen as town to make a vote without many a good reason. I have seen him as town and scum as he has played many a game that I mod and noticed as town he has more facts and thoughts behind his voting.
4)Yes I'm a mind reader and knew you would ask me to look at Kmd.

[farside22]

Things that Gayle didn't notice amount morph by farside:

morph calls me scum and town in the same post and regarding the same reason
here

misinterperts the lynch votes for mavsfan
here

hypocritical post here calling me out for lack of scum hunting here
more misinterperts reason for votes here

So basically Gayle found none of this scummy but thinks that there is nothing scummy in morph.
Wonder why I think they are scum together. How could you miss any of this if you read morphs post?

[farside22]

@gayle how is that not a misrep.
How in the world do you not see him saying farside is town then scum for the same point? Please explain.
So you think lack of scum hunting and misrep of what is going on the game = town.
Nice I'm glad to keep my vote on morph at this time.
But please keep pushing your crap at me. I look forward to my lynch and seeing you squirm on your hypocrisy's tomorrow when I flip town.
It's the bitch in me that enjoys seeing people get their comupence.

[farside22]

He was stating his opinion. And he can't say you aren't hunting scum if he is guilty of the same thing? This is a scummy argument. Regardless of his play, he can find your play scummy.

By the way his post is a lie I was scum hunting before post 154 I wanted to see if you actually thought the case had meritt but I see you aren't reading what is going on in the game.
So it's more then hypocritical becuase yes calling someone out for not scum hunting when you do the same is scummy. Look it up. It was a complete lie.

I love how Gayle is covering up for anyone I consider scummy at the moment but Kmd.
Good times, good times.

[farside22]

You know what, I've thought this out. This whole "no lynching at deadline" isn't that good at all.

I'm going to be nice.

Expect the change in the next votecount.

Argh! Don't do that!

^Gayle doesn't want her scum partner lynched it seems.
That's sarcasm in case you missed it.

[farside22]

I was doing both discussion on the set up and scum hunting except maybe the first 4 pages where most everyone was talking about the set up.
How was what he said not a misrep? Don't slide by the question without giving an answer now that I'm clear what I'm saying in this post.
This pretty much scums up quiet well what I feel about you and why I state "you'll be sorry"
It's the bitch in me that enjoys seeing people get their comeuppance.

[farside22]

While I am certainly defending Ani (too many scummy people on the wagon, too few solid reasons to justify the wagon, and I just don't find him scummy), I was not defending Mavsfan.

I disagree you were definately defending Mavsfan by basically giving a free pass to a player that is clearly posting in another game and not posting in this game. Your response about him not posting here is almost a so what and we have a replacement so it's no big deal what he did, blah, blah, blah.
Your now defending morph and doing a poor job at that. So far no reason's on why you don't see his post as a misrep.
And yes I realized I missed the, and when he's discussing me as scum in that very sentence when I don't see the word scum in bold next to my name.

Gayle pleading for others to change their vote and morph saying the person voting for him is scummy.
*sits back and wonders how this can't look scummy to others*

[farside22]

He says that I am right that there is little reason to lynch Mavsfan when he is getting replaced. Where is the misrepresentation? The "Policy Lynch" part? Lynching someone for lurking is a policy lynch.

First it wasn't a policy lynch. Sure some called it a lurker lynch but policy means you believe a player in the game is scummy/anti-town based on past games. Note that has nothing to do with lurking. I love seeing you stregth things like this.
Second it was based on lack of context and a player that was posting elsewhere and not in this game.

You started attacking me because I wanted to replace Mavsfan. This isn't a misrep, this is the truth.

I attacked you for implying he was town. I have stated this many times and even said it had nothing to do with the replacement. How the hell is this truth?

[farside22]

@ farside:

You started attacking me because I wanted to replace Mavsfan. This isn't a misrep, this is the truth.

I attacked you for implying he was town. I have stated this many times and even said it had nothing to do with the replacement. How the hell is this truth?

This implies that you know mavs is scum, and the only way to know that is if you are scum partners with him.

How is this implying that I know him to be scum?

[farside22]

What is the only way to know (aka you know there is a 100% chance he is scum) the person your lyncing is going to be scum in this setup? Since there is not a sinlge investigative role, that only leaves your his scum partnerpicking up on an easy wagon tolook like town.

HOW DID I IMPLY THAT I KNEW HIM TO BE SCUM?

This is just noise that does not answer the question.

[farside22]

What is the only way to know (aka you know there is a 100% chance he is scum) the person your lyncing is going to be scum in this setup? Since there is not a sinlge investigative role, that only leaves your his scum partnerpicking up on an easy wagon tolook like town.

HOW DID I IMPLY THAT I KNEW HIM TO BE SCUM?

This is just noise that does not answer the question.

I believe it does answer the question. I believe his argument is this: You attack me for implying that Mavsfan is town (I didn't). That implies that you know Mavsfan is scum.

That makes no sense. I assume scum based on newbie scum tell. You state mostly likely town and mislynch in my view looked to be inside knowledge on his alignment.
No where does this say I know him to be scum.

[farside22]

Sorry for the caps I feel like some people are not reading things and need things to be bigger to understand them or be able to read.
^sarcasm
Really it's just annoyance at someone trying to make something into nothing.

kmd your hole argument about saying your role pm doesn't tell you that your scum although humorous it's a defense.
Although I know your meta on town and scum your actions and comments and even that latest statement about being lost does not fit what I know of your usual attitude. The I feel lost statement is something I see either newbs use or scum. So IGMYOU.

[farside22]

A question: After I posted my analysis of my read, what was your opinion on me and why?

My problem is my mind set on the player you replaced and what he did. It's a hard feeling to shake out. I will try and read you in isolation but I would like your views on morph, gayle and the new guy JacobSavage.

I concern with sanhora that is how I read kmd as well.

[farside22]

That question is actually aimed at KMD. So if you want to answer it, can you wait till he has answered it?

Sure. I thought it was a general question to everyone.

[farside22]

@gayle: you going to keep harping that morph was right in his comments and it wasn't a misrep of what was going on the game?

[farside22]

Votecount 1.13 (As of My Last Post)

animorpherv1 -L-1- TheLonging, farside22, Slaxx, kmd4390, Sanhora, JacobSavage

[/u]
Sanhora -1- Gheb

farside22 -2- Gayle, animorpherv1
Gayle -2- DTMaster, Pomegranate

Not voting: xofelf

With

12

alive, it's

7

to lynch. Currently, animorpherv1 would be lynched if deadline were to hit now.

DEADLINE: Friday, February 12, 2010, at 8:00pm EST

(You have ONE DAY REMAINING!!)

animorpherv's new avatar STILL scares the shit out of me.

---

Vote Ani

Is there a reason your voting morph over kmd?

[farside22]

@gayle: you going to keep harping that morph was right in his comments and it wasn't a misrep of what was going on the game?

Rather, I'm moving on and you are the one harping that morph is wrong and that it was a misrep.

So what makes you think morph is not scum?

[farside22]

Also, I lol'd about Farside complaining about people not reading things.

Your right this isn't harping this is a dig at me again.

[farside22]

Your right this isn't harping this is a dig at me again.

I'm not trying to insult or upset you. It is just that when you ask something like this

So what makes you think morph is not scum?

Something that I

just got done going over

, It leads to me believe that you are completely ignoring what I say and instead repeatedly ask questions that have already been answered.

So you still think based on my response on why he is misrepresting what is going on the game is invalid?

[farside22]

hey I'm back!!!!
So I need to do a quick catch up but I have one question on kmd.
Why did you target DTMaster? You stated yourself you had a town read on gayle and myself so I was curious to know why you target DT.

[farside22]

animorpherv1 -L-1- TheLonging, farside22, Slaxx, kmd4390, Sanhora, JacobSavage, Gheb
farside22 -2- Gayle, animorpherv1
Gayle -2- DTMaster, Pomegranate

I wanted to look at the vote count to get an idea who may be scum with morph. Along with looking at players in the game.

Gheb all over the place with his votes. He's saying a long he hammered morph but I don't know why.
Gayle: Trying to push my lynch over morph with many a person in the game.
Gayle also says she doesnt' want a counter claim and pushed for kmd lynch more during that day 2. This seems scum motivated because who else would want to lynch a claimed doc?
TheLonging: Talk about a player that is following others. He's comment to kmd is hypocritcal to say the least.

He hasn't done a lot. He's lurking, not even posting a lot when he does post, not sharing his thoughts...

He is pretty much looking like an active lurker. Posting little to nothing and accusing others of the same.

Jacob pretty much could have been the swing vote with trying to push my lynch or morph. - not scum with morph
Jacob has been really all over the place. He votes for Gayle for poor reasoning and then votes for kmd for saying that CSL cleared Gayle (not the case in my view)
I get the impression he is just making comments on current issues and not looking into the game itself.
DTMaster: Town enough said. The comments made from gayle to him has me leaning more scum on Gayle then town.
Elf: The WIFOM comment to Gayle is horriblely scummy.

does anyone find it at all suspicious that Gayle and farside were having comments back and forth and now farside is dead? or is that just me?
kmd- claimed doc. No counter claim- town

Trying to test waters to others views. Not placing a vote in with this comment.
very suspicious.

Top two suspects for scum with morph is Gayle and Gheb

Other scum suspects: elf, the longing and jacob.

vote: Gayle

Tell me why you were pushing my lynch over a now known scum player.

[farside22]

I would point out, it is not a scummy thing not to want a counter-claim.
Kmd could have claimed doctor, to save the real doctor, allowing the doctor to save him in the night.
Far-fetched, but slightly plausable

If she wasn't pushing for his lynch I would agree that yes scum want a doc claim to get out the only confirmed townie but pushing to lynch a claimed doc is scummy.

[farside22]

You want to ignore the best reason to lynch you which I stated day 1 shows a connection between you and morph and your push to vote a now dead proven townie over a dead scum.

confirm vote: Gayle

[farside22]

You want to ignore the best reason to lynch you which I stated day 1 shows a connection between you and morph and your push to vote a now dead proven townie over a dead scum.

confirm vote: Gayle

I ignore it because you are asking me "Why did you attack someone you found scummy over someone you didn't?"

Not the question. I asked why you didn't find morph scum and pushed a lynch on a player that flipped town.

Tell me why you were pushing my lynch over a now known scum player.

Scum would rather mislynch or keep their partner safe from lynch.

[farside22]

Scum would rather mislynch or keep their partner safe from lynch.

Yeah that line pretty much makes me believe you are scum with morph gayle.

[farside22]

But you already know why I wanted to lynch you. And you already know what I thought of the ani wagon at the time. Your question implies that I either knew what ani's alignment was, which is nothing but speculation, or that I need to explain why I was wrong.

Specualation is also a strawman defense. I can show were you were trying to get people to vote for me over moph. What town player would do this?
I can show your blantantly ignoring my point on morph and his misrep's.
Seeing morph flip fire scum is pretty good chance with these points you are his scum parnter.

[farside22]

Rather, I responded that I disagreed that they were misreps. You love to misuse the word "ignore".

*Looks to morph's flip. Looks back a gayle. *

you were wrong and only scum would push on someone else's wagon to save their own scum partner.

[farside22]

On the mean prairie's of Missouri, when we make accusations based on little evidence, we back them up with a wager. Let's pretend we are in the MO, Farside. If I flip town, you have to change your avatar to an image of my choice. If I flip scum, I have to change my avatar to an image of your choice. To sweeten the deal, you only have to change your avatar for two weeks, whereas I will change mine indefinitely. Are you a bad enough dude dudette to accept this wager?

By the way changing my avatar for 2 weeks doesn't bother me in the least. I would do this bet in a heartbeat as I don't see what a big deal any avatar can be.

[farside22]

I love the avatar so much I may keep it longer then 2 weeks.

[farside22]

In all seriousness I need to do a reread now that the person I felt for certain was scum flipped town.

[farside22]

I need to go but I want to post why i think gheb is scum right quick and when I have a moment later I will expand. I just don't want to lose my notes:

What I do find interesting (this is still @DTM) is the fact that out of the 3 inactive / useless people you only mentioned only morph and mavs but take no note of xoxelf whatsoever despite me mentioning him/her just as much as the other two players. Why is that? You single out mavs for the sake of a bandwagon (which is OK with me) but completely fail to mention that everything you said also applies to morph and xoxelf at the same time? And yet, you complain about me voting Slaxx', which at that time was a completely legitimate move? If you earnestly call me a hypocrite for voting Slaxx' over one of the three other players then you are a hypocrite just as much because you vote a player for doing something that somebody else - xoxelf, whom you ironically choose to ignore - has also done.

First lets go and say this next post is hypocritcal after his comment to DTmaster

By lurking they actively hurt our process of scumhunting, which is scummy. My main issue is that it's also very safe for scum to get an inactive lynched as it doesn't require to take a clear stance.

...

Vote animorpherv1

The problem is that we're not only lacking input from mavsfan but from xoxelf too. We're currently waiting for 2 inactives or their replacements to speak up on what happened with deadline looming. With 4 days left there might not be enough time to fill the hole they're replacing into.

I've seen morph finally taking a stance and stepping it up in terms of activity

.

Focasing on lurkers.

OK, so I'm curious as to why DTM and farside are voting for Gayle when they are so sure that mav's play has been anti-town (which I'd agree with) and advocated his lynch pretty clearly all day. Gayle has been playing pretty stupid but I'm not sure if that's because he's scum or just new. A lot of the stuff he said isn't flat-out scummy but just misinformed and I think it's too easy for scum to make him the scapegoat. Look townie if he flips mafia, blame it on his stupid play if he flips town - that's win/win for mafia and thus a likely wagon for them to jump on.

This makes me fairly suspicious of farside and I think her reactions to Gayle's concerns were pretty bad. I think she's exaggerating a lot in this case and looks like opportunistic scum searching the easiest lynch. Gayle lightweight-defending mav's is certainly something to keep in mind in case of a scumflip but at the same time I don't think his arguments were scummy enough to draw such a fierce reaction from farside. Farside only seems to be looking for the most comfotable lynch - the one that is the easiest to sweep under the rug.

Vote Farside

I'd also like to point a FoS at KMD for jumping the Gayle wagon for being so defensive. That's a textbook example of scum looking for a lame excuse to jump on a comfortable lynch. What's so unusual or scummy to be defensive when people jump on your wagon for a case that's blown out of proportion pretty hard? It looks like a pretty natural reaction of a player who's just not used to being scapegoated so hard.

That doesn't change my opinion of farside and KMD at all. I'm not saying that Gayle's play isn't suspicous enough to warrant a lynch. I'm saying that the same also applies to KMD / farside IMHO. I'm not saying "Gayle is town so his wagoners are scum". I'm saying "farside's/KMD's arguments and the way they have jumped on the Gayle wagon are pretty suspicous to me." It has nothing to do with assuming that Gayle may or may not be scum - with two mafia fractions scum can still hunt scum themselves so it could be a mafia vs mafia debate. My point is that they're making him a scapegoat which is typical behaviour of - you guessed it - the mafia.

now that all players in question flipped town what do you have to say about this post?

Unvote Vote Xoxelf

Ask question, bring up points, hunt scum - play the game! It's been so long since we've heard anything from you that's even remotely useful. You posted once after a long streak of inactivity to avoid replacement / a prod and now you continue to play that way? I think most of the arguments against mavsfan should apply to you just as much by now.

Weren't you just critisizing DTMaster for pointing to only one player doing this?
Here he does it again. Also again going back to the lurkers lynch mentality.

At this point I think lynching some of the more vocal players won't help us too much. I know I keep changing my mind a lot but right now we BADLY lack input from The Longing, Slaxx, Sanhora and Xoxelf - you guys can't all be scum stalling? We have about two days to finalize our lynch and you guys have nothing to say? All 3 of you haven't done more than feigning activity and have posted nothing of substance in a long time.

Unvote Vote Sanhora

Why are you switching your vote at this time?

Vote Xoxelf

Singeling out players as suspicous based on a NK? Everybody should know the amount of WIFOM involved. Horrible attempt to frame somebody.

vote jumping many times for little to no reason. This last one looks like following Kmd the claimed doc.

Yeah, at this point lurking is anti-town period. After all the discussion we had D2 you seriously letting this getting out of hand. And that bothers me because with that modkill we're at 3 anti-town vs 5 town and if you are town you WANT to make the correct lynch and you WANT all players to do their best. Everything else is Anti-town

Vote The Longing

[farside22]

I did say I was posting my notes and would expand later when I had a chance. How nice of you to completely ignore that comment along with my post.

You accuse me of being on mislynches when I'm one of the most vocal players about lynching players like ani who flipped scum?

First of all you voted for morph once and then unvoted and went for another lurker. You hammered him that day just saying it was close to deadline and he was L-1 so don't be saying you were all after him. You were after lurkers only. Lurkers are easy prey for scum to look at. There was nothing more then just oh X player is not saying anything and lurker I vote for elf, sanhora, morph, thelonging, slaxx. It was all the same thing and reason. That's not scum hunting that is called lurker lynching.

You haven't been scum hunting and then you call out DTMaster for talking abount mansvan but then just attack a lurker over another player with no real reason but lurkering and offering nothing.
Then you follow kmd and throughout the game I found you coasting. You have post little thoughts on players in the game.
plus the one time you didn't attack a lurker every player you mentioned was town.

In short: I haven't see you offer a case that was based on anything more then lurking and say little to nothing about anyone else in the game or impressions.

[farside22]

Long post incoming.

TQO:

Either way it looks like I agree Animorpher might be the scummiest so far. But I want to see what Ani's defense is going to be before I decide whether to switch from my pressure vote right now.

I wonder why if TQO feels this way he kept his vote on elf saying this:

So if I understand this correctly, we're basing our current choice of lynches on an unwritten "lynch all lurkers" rule. Since obviously nobody seems to be finding anything scummy said by anyone currently active, we're hoping that inactive players = scum so that the day can progress as normal.
Well then my original pressure vote on Elf will work just fine I suppose. Since I've seen nothing worthy of an argument that supports Mav or Ani over Elf, they're all lurkers. And sorry if this sounds harsh, but if your so busy with school work that you can't play the game, why did you sign up for the game in the first place? I say either lynch the lurkers or the lurkers need to respectfully replace out for someone who's going to have a more vested interest in scum hunting.

They were both lurksome players.

Jacob:

talks about me pushing gayle as scum but doesn't say why that is scummy.

He did switch votes to morph when gayle was pushing hard on me. This gives me a plus view on Jacob as not scum with morph.

However his reasoning was off:

Personly I think that Farside is far more suspisous, and with ani only being lynched because of an apparent lack of activity, we are missing out on getting rid of one of the Mafia members.

I'm not sure what to think about this seeing morph's lynch as scum.

I find this comment comical after the fact:

I am tempted to vote Gayle, as she tried to get votes off Ani and on to Farside, a townie

He did call morph scum and vote for morph more to get a lynch happening but wants to blame gayle now.
Jacob then votes for kmd after the claim and saying he missed when the claim occured.

Jacob doesn't seem to pay attention to what is going on in the game. The only plus I can say is he did put ani at l-3 and could have pushed a lynch and kept his vote on me.
As I said this has me leaning not scum with morph.
However most of everything else he said is pretty under the radar. I haven't seen any real viewpoints on other players from him in the game. Leaning neutral. I think Longing/elf scum together see below for next.

TheLonging:

Vote: animorph

He hasn't done a lot. He's lurking, not even posting a lot when he does post, not sharing his thoughts....

pretty meh reason for a vote and didn't really say much else day 1

Where did you see kmd bwing players?

I was gonna make a post about how I found kmd and ani suspicious, but thread locked before it could.

Vote: kmd

Horrible bandwagoning, giving horrible reasons for voting, restating the obvious... that's the shortened version of my moderately-sized post.

Wasn't this already stated day 1 by others like gayle and myself?

I think xoxelf isn't scum, just needs to post more (I feel like I can't speak, but I'm trying to post more so I will). I still like my vote on kmd. I find it suspicious farside died tonight, so one of my suspicions is on Gayle.

why was morph scum and elf not scum in your view?
Looking at night kills is a scum tactic.

I also mentioned why I thought Animorph was scummy in that vote. Yes I lurked D1 but most of it was Gayle vs. Farside, which I really didn't have much to do with + I wasn't online a lot

Another scum tactic is to lurk when they see two players arguing as it leaves them clear to just place a vote and walk away without being noticed.

For looking for bandwagons and voting for kmd, who as far as we know, is probably a doctor.

Why did you focas on Jacob for this. I know Gayle flipped town but why didn't you say anything about her push on kmd?

TheLonging placed a meh vote for morph. Lurker through day 1 and chose to hide instead of responding to the case at hand. I find it a scum tactic to talk about the NK to try and soil another player in the game. But after that accusation never brings anything to it afterwards

elf

does anyone find it at all suspicious that Gayle and farside were having comments back and forth and now farside is dead? or is that just me?

Same sin as the longing using night kill speculation.

i never said that made Gayle suspicious. more of i was thinking that whoever did it WANTED to make her look so. i guess i should have said odd. i wasn't saying she did anything. just intrigued by the fact that she was defending ani and he flipped scum, and then farside dies during the night. i'm thinking somebody wants to make her look scummy. Cuz all i get from her are town vibes.
it was more something to think about than anything else.

wishy washy response

Both Thelonging and elf bring up the same point on gayle about the nk. I see this as a scum tactic to make someone else look scum based on a kill.
Also elf's play reminds me strongly of an MM game we were in where she said nothing but I'm reading and had to be replaced out.

Vote: Brutality

My main 3 are TL, elf and gheb as scum at this point.

[farside22]

Preferably, I would suggest that we focus on finding possible fire scum, out of the list of suspects, If only to reduce the number of night kills to 1 rather than 2

Not really. We need to find one of the ice mafia.
Look at the front to see the win condition:

You win if you cover half of the population, or nothing can prevent this. Confirm in thread.

There is 6 players left
3 is town
2 is ice
1 is fire

best ideally for town is finding one of the 2 remaining ice mafia.

That leaves
3 town
1 ice
1 fire
and hope ice and fire target each other with this in the morning.
it's going to be a tough thing to pull off.
You look for just the fire and look what happens

3 town
2 ice

ice targets 1 townie
2 townie
2 ice

mafia wins as per win condition.

[farside22]

Hey. This is not a result of inactivity, but as far as recent events go.

I might be pulling this plug if 5 out of the 6 alive vote for it. That means if just two want to continue, it will.

If I end up having to pull it, I'll fast forward it to what the endgame would most likely be. Essentially, this game will have winners and losers no matter what.

I just ask you to not reveal roles if we end up having to pull plugs, and just wait for the official mod reveal.

What are you talking about here? There is no reason to do pull the plug do a prod damn it.

[farside22]

I really see TL/Elf as scum.
Jacob's comment about looking for fire could be ice mafia looking for an easy win but Gheb jumping on that in lylo has me most concerned.

[farside22]

@Farside
If elf was scum with Longing or Gheb, she would by now with either of them.

Idk maybe I'm wrong about elf. I cant take my mind of the MM game we were in together and frankly it's meta and gut feel with her.

vote: theLonging

I think TL is completely hypocrical with that reason. I asked him about Gayle and Jacob and why the seperation. Now pushing Jacob for the doc claim and vote when thelonging did the same.

[farside22]

@Farside
1. I think you are saying that Longing was pushing Jacob for his Doc vote? not the Doc claim because KMD claimed doc.

Yeah I got excited with TL. I felt he was scum yesterday and as I said using the kill saying trying to paint Gayle as scum I'm betting ice mafia since I was killed by the ice tried to set that up to make Gayle look scummy and then try to subtly push that idea.

[farside22]

I think xoxelf isn't scum, just needs to post more (I feel like I can't speak, but I'm trying to post more so I will). I still like my vote on kmd. I find it suspicious farside died tonight, so one of my suspicions is on Gayle.

This post doesn't say that thought at all TL.

[farside22]

Unvote

Why?

If Gheb is fire scum: that means that Jacob must be Icescum

Well that would explain why Gheb voted for Jacob actually. He may see's it as opportunist ice mafia scum trying to win the game and get the fire scum out.

That doesn't change my view on the longing being scum. But now I have to see if there is anything between jacob and TL to confirm this.

unvote

[farside22]

TL would be almost confirmed townie actually if Gheb is Fire, and Jacob is Ice.

The Xolelf lynch is easier then a Jacob/TL bus this late in the game. I don't believe Ice scum would do this. I do however think you might be ice scum here. It's funny but: in this game the scum are the cops.

I don't see how TL is almost confirmed. There is a thing called bussing.
Elf is being so low under cover and like I said the only thing I have is meta and gut that tells me scum.
I think Jacob wasn't trying to push fire looking at it he looks like a newb post that didn't know the win condition. He was looking at it as 1 less kill

vote: TL

My belief is strong that TL will flip ice mafia.

[farside22]

I think elf's post that gives no reason on why JS and just following the bw leads me more to believe TL scum with elf. The are move avoiding each other.

[farside22]

@Farside
No, Icescum wouldn't bus and put themselves into reverse PD

They would force mislynch

I thought it was a deadline lynch. ???

[farside22]

I have gotten so many prods I can't imagine ice mafia allowing themselves to me lynched. Call it WIFOM but at this point I would imagine ice fighting to try and create a mislynch if they were about to be lynched.

[farside22]

Well this game should have gone to night.
Bad mod no biscutt.
The two elements could have targeted the same player and it would have been 2 town, 1 fire and 2 ice.
I have no idea why CSL didn't have this go to night it was the only reason I didn't hammer

[farside22]

farside

Also, There were 5 players alive going into N3,

but Gheb likely would've gone fore either of the ice mafia, and the ice mafia would just pick someone off, which is why I called it lylo.

It was already said

in DAY 3

that it was lylo. Don't badtalk my ruling. It violates Rule 0.

Last time I'm ever going to mod an open game.

1) that is WIFOM. Did you ask Gheb who he was going to kill before declaring the ice the winner
2) The game is over and frankly the way you modded this I don't care if I'm ever in a game that you mod again. Ever. You mod killed when you should not have. You declared a game and winner without thinking of possiblity that the ice and fire could have targetted the same player.
In short I think you were in a hurry to end this game and not let it play out as it should have.
I will send my notes to the list mods and let them decided if you modded this correctly.

[farside22]

2) The game is over and frankly the way you modded this I don't care if I'm ever in a game that you mod again. Ever. You mod killed when you should not have. You declared a game and winner without thinking of possiblity that the ice and fire could have targetted the same player.
In short I think you were in a hurry to end this game and not let it play out as it should have.
I will send my notes to the list mods and let them decided if you modded this correctly.

Thing is, knowing that we already had fire scum known to us, personally, no matter what had happened, i was gonna target Gheb again for the simple fact that we would win no matter who else he targeted. So your arguement isn't completely valid. Yes i know that i would have had to get agreement from you, but it honestly didn't really matter anyways.
I agree there were some mistakes, but every mod goes through that and as long as it didn't totally scar someone from ever wanting to play again, i say let it go.

If that happened Gheb could have targetted one of us. It could have been the same with 2 town, 2 ice and 1 fire.
I'm not sure if Gheb would have targetted DTM knowing who is what role but it can't be undone.

[farside22]

Thanks TQO. I think I can understand your frustration if gayle acted like that in another game. It was hard being Ice mafia as I felt sure gayle was scum and I thought she was scum with morph because she completely ignored anything he did and pushed for my lynch.
I knew jaboc was not scum with morph and I meant what I said about that push on morph over me that day does not equal fire mafia.
I also had trouble seeing Gayles POV on masvan as when a player post elsewhere and I see them looking over a thread here it is actively lurking and newb's mostly don't know how to handle pressure. Her calling him town just was too hard for me to believe it was town. And yes when you say someone is more likely to flip town that means town to me.

[farside22]

CSL. You will have to create a new thread for the game. This game will be locked down.
Make sure those who want to redo want to play.