Open 197- Lunch is over...

[Snakenstein]

Confirmed. Me loves a good food fight. I'm a luvva

and

a fighta.

[Snakenstein]

I don't see why we should keep it a secret. People will wonder why others are defending each other and instead of saying OMG you are scum together we should establish pairs.

This; also, scum will have already exchanged this info if they have half a brain.

My lover is Snakenstein... and apparently he likes it rough... THIS IS FUN. Share all your relationship issues now:

You b1tch. How dare you reveal my secrets ... and in the cafeteria, no less ... where people are eating ... and throwing food ... and using vegetables for ... well its no secret that

they

are lovers.

[Snakenstein]

Snakenstein, do you think scum might kill their own partner when necessary?

Yes, though you kind of answered your own question there sugarplum. Necessary means "absolutely essential".

[Snakenstein]

@sanhora I don't think it's smart to reveal when no one else is, do you? I would reveal, but if no one else is on board with that, then there's no point.

So far I don't see anyone but Sanhora saying no to reveal. Did someone else say no to reveals that I missed?

Well, I don't think the reveal was a great strategy, but alas my partner has a

stinky middle

itchy trigger finger. He can be a bit premature if you get my drift.

[Snakenstein]

@sanhora I don't think it's smart to reveal when no one else is, do you? I would reveal, but if no one else is on board with that, then there's no point.

Well, I don't think the reveal was a great strategy.

Why not?

For starters, my default position is that the town roles are designed to be beneficial to the town. We shouldn't just give them away without some discussion first. To do so would be suspicious.

My thought about the lover pairs is that the pair can secretly work in a coordinated manner to achieve their goals. Once the identity of the pairs is public, the PM is still available, but any coordinated activity becomes transparent. I haven't played this type of game before, so I don't know how much of an issue this is going to be.

[Snakenstein]

I can't believe no one want's to talk about their lover and their feel of their lover thus far in this game.

Despite his macho exterior, my lover feels soft and cuddly. He's a good lover, but can be downright naughty.

Obviously, we cannot proceed without getting some information on the table, and I am willing to proceed given some sort of an equitable sharing. I see no harm in stating that I haven't really gained any information from my partner. We've had few exchanges, and his public persona and his "lover persona" seem consistent. Straightforward and brash.

[Snakenstein]

Can I also point out that it is in the town's interest for all players to decide if their partner is scum...

As town you have a 50% chance of being with scum... if you think that percentage is closer to 75% through their actions, you may as well vote them.

On a side note I'm thinking that Snake needs to make some opinions clear to the town, I think he's acting too much as a back seat role.

Clayman, I would like to hear

your

opinions on players.

On a side note, I'm thinking that we should lynch the Ani-Clay group.

Animorpherv1, you may have made your opinion clear on whether to claim lovers or not. But that is all. 2 Posts have any relevant details. Others are 100% noise.

Max, I appreciate your input and I think that you are making good sense here. So, I have to point out that your initial action to expose our relationship without consulting me was a scummy maneuver. I'm not currently addressing whether or not it was the correct choice, but just presenting that your "acting on your own accord" was scummy. Having said that, I still think that you are town, because your other actions all present as pro-town, and the one scummy act was just plain blatant. If you are scum, then my guess is that you would be more subtle.

[Snakenstein]

Can I also point out that it is in the town's interest for all players to decide if their partner is scum...

As town you have a 50% chance of being with scum... if you think that percentage is closer to 75% through their actions, you may as well vote them.

On a side note I'm thinking that Snake needs to make some opinions clear to the town, I think he's acting too much as a back seat role.

Clayman, I would like to hear

your

opinions on players.

On a side note, I'm thinking that we should lynch the Ani-Clay group.

Animorpherv1, you may have made your opinion clear on whether to claim lovers or not. But that is all. 2 Posts have any relevant details. Others are 100% noise.

Max, I appreciate your input and I think that you are making good sense here. So, I have to point out that your initial action to expose our relationship without consulting me was a scummy maneuver. I'm not currently addressing whether or not it was the correct choice, but just presenting that your "acting on your own accord" was scummy. Having said that, I still think that you are town, because your other actions all present as pro-town, and the one scummy act was just plain blatant. If you are scum, then my guess is that you would be more subtle.

I made the above post a little too hastily. Max had shared what appeared to be some sound logic concerning a strategy. It seemed to indicate that the best town strategy wouldn't necessarily be in our own best interests. He indicated that his best chances of winning involved lynching me (which obviously brings about his untimely demise since we are lynching pairs rather than individuals). I thought that pretty strongly indicated a pro-town role, and I made my post above.

However, on closer inspection, I believe his logic is erroneous, and have posted my reasoning in QT. Regardless, the fact that he was willing to pursue a strategy that could involve his own premature death indicates pretty strongly that he is town.

We are starting to discuss the specifics of this strategy in our QT.

[Snakenstein]

Is it possible to explain what this strategy consists of or is it more prudent to wait until your further discussion is complete?

I'd prefer to discuss it with Max first. I believe his logic to be faulty, but that does not mean that I am correct. I will also allow that this could just be a WIFOM attempt to get me to trust him. If so, it is a

very

clever maneuver, because he is making me think that

he

is a good guy for threatening to lynch

me

.

[Snakenstein]

I know. I'm just waiting for something scummy to happen, imo.

Plenty scummy has happened. Sometimes what not happening is what makes

Also, the last post Snake had in QT makes me think he's town.

Kunkstar7, I'll reveal all tomorrow. When it'll be necessary for a pro-town player to lynch their lover to win.

Snakenstein, I'm not aiming for most cunning manipulator at the scummies so why bother manipulating?

Remember scum have the reach of 4 players. If both scum are good manipulators then they only need one vote swing. That means that the decisions can't be made as a pair. Pairs = Mafia win.
I'm treating it as I know:
A - There are two Mafia
B - If you are mafia, I must vote for your lynch tomorrow or all other townies today.
C - If you are town, you cannot suspect me of being mafia, for tomorrow you would lynch me.
D - If you are town, we have a 2/3rds chance of hitting scum.

I am not following this at all. I have asked Max in QT to please clarify.

[Snakenstein]

But I'm confused about how we could get to the mafia without killing their partners.

We can't, we're eliminating pairs. Each time we lynch, we necessarily lose at least one town. Max has been making a good point (with which I agree) that each person must try and make their most informed assessment of their partner and recognize that they may have to die to lynch a scum. That information obviously gets vetted through the whole group, but the partners are theoretically in the best position to assess their lover's allegiance. So forget the personal perspective and consider your collective allegiance. In a sense, your pair is either town or scum. This is not literally true, but effectively you live or die based on your pair. Your win condition is definitely not tied to your individual survival, but to town or scum survival based on your role. This became very apparent to me when Max presented his strategy to me (even though the specifics were incorrect in my opinion).

[Snakenstein]

Snake what is your view on the other players in the game so far?

I want to at least acknowledge the question here. I don't feel like there is a lot to go on at this point.

I only have 4 impressions so far. First and most obvious is animopherv, though I am not presenting anything that others haven't already presented. The inattentiveness to the game is most certainly going to be a detriment if it is not fixed. Animopherv will serve the best interests of town if he/she makes a concerted effort to honestly establish the allegiance of his partner. This will involve being attentive to the QT and the thread. Animo already seems to indicate an inability to be attentive to just half of the task. This does in no way point animo as scum, but it certainly paints him/her as a liability. If he/she is involved in a town-town pair, I believe our probability of success is greatly diminished. In other words. Animo, if you are town, get your damn head in the game. (Admittedly, I've been a bit of a recluse as well, so I'm in a bit of a glass house at the moment. I expect to contribute more, though).

Second, I've already presented a bit about Max. I believe his heart is in the right place, but I'm not convinced about his logic. I still need a bit more interaction, but as I had stated earlier, the initial strategy really struck a strong "town" chord with me. That has diminished some with his last post, but I still maintain a positive town position for him.

Sanhora appears to be town to me. He/she seemed cooperative with the publicizing pairings discussion, so that represents a town perspective to me. Sanhora also seemed to agree with me about being reluctant to reveal pairings, so that may have tainted my outlook. I still do not maintain that keeping the pairings secret was necessarily the correct strategy, but I certainly think that discussing beforehand was absolutely the correct strategy. At a minimum, we stood to gain information from those discussions.

Farside22 seems to be scumhunting in the best interests of town. Seems to be asking pointed and relevant questions. I have a positive feel from that.

Others, I really haven't gotten a sense one way or another.

[Snakenstein]

I talked with sanhora a bit to understand his reason's on not claiming. I really don't get it. I think he wanted to see if scum tried to defend another player without knowing pairs. Sanhora also said we played a game before apparently together but I don't remember and when asked he said he didn't remember the game. I don't know why but I found it weird.
so far my feeling on sanhora is I'm not sure to something feels off talking to him but I'm paranoid by nature.

I find this to be an interesting observation. I guess you could make a case (albeit weak) that Sanhora was attempting to "cozy up" by referencing a common history or common ground. I'd be interested to know how many mafia lover games Sanhora has played.

I guess the appropriate initial position in QT would be one of wariness, which I admittedly failed to recognize until now (first lover game). As I reread my QT, I would characterize Max's initial post as wary with a hint of aggressiveness, which I guess is appropriate. (Its really hard to read anything into first posts, especially because they are kind of break-the-ice style postings.) Next, he moved to a questioning of Sanhora which I took to be a disagreement with the "keep the pairs secret" approach. I pointed out that I supported a "discuss before reveal" approach, to which he disagreed. Next we briefly discussed where farside might be going with the line of questioning, and whether it would be productive or counterproductive. Then he moved on to outlining his strategy, which I have already commented on.

[Snakenstein]

Max, how many mafia lover games have you played?

[Snakenstein]

I'm inclined in that direction as well, though I might be a bit more conservative than my partner. Lets see if animo can come forth and provide something of substance.

In the meantime, I'm having trouble deconstructing the exchange between Sonhora and gameplayah/kunkstar. From what I can tell, kunstar asked in QT if gameplayah was OK to out their pair. Gameplayah responded that it was OK, but was then reluctant to reveal? Is this the way it happened or am I misreading?

[Snakenstein]

I wasn't necessarily reluctant. Although I didn't want to be the first to reveal my pair. Turns out some people revealed right at the beginning, but I was skimming and didn't see that.

That didn't really answer the question. Were you still reluctant to reveal after the two of you had agreed that it was OK?

[Snakenstein]

In the meantime, I'm having trouble deconstructing the exchange between Sonhora and gameplayah/kunkstar. From what I can tell, kunkstar asked in QT if gameplayah was OK to out their pair. Gameplayah responded that it was OK, but was then reluctant to reveal? Is this the way it happened or am I misreading?

I think we had a bit of a silent standoff as to who was going to out it, I didn't get to posting it so gameplayah did. I can't answer for any reluctance he may have had or felt, from my perspective I don't see any reluctance.

Why was sanhora hounding gameplayah about it then? Do you think it was a legitimate complaint?

[Snakenstein]

And considering that my partner is the one with the most votes I will address my view. If I think my partner is scum I am more than willing to vote for them because its in the best interest of the town. The case on my partner seems to be that he really doesn't appear to give a damn. And his activity in QT has been even less than here. But in my experience it seems those who act uninterested typically aren't the scum. But he could be different and if he isn't helpful I am willing to see him as the best option.

Well, you obviously drew the short straw on this one Clayman. Whether you are town or scum, I can't see any way you can paint your pair town without animo being active. The only thing you could attempt would be to suggest that "disinterest = town" as you did above, and that in and of itself seems scummy.

If you are both town, your partner is doing us a great disservice. If either of you are scum, animo is being very helpful.

FOS: Clayman - "disinterest = town"
FOS: Animo - "disinterest"

And I'm fully aware that you can't both be scum I'm holding off on a vote, because I'm really hoping animo will become active.

[Snakenstein]

@Snake:

That makes no sense. You FoS both of us, yet you know we are both not scum

Fos:Snake

.

It makes no sense to FOS players that act suspicious? I invite you to engage in the game and with your partner so we might learn more about you. Or is there something that you are trying to hide?

[Snakenstein]

hahaha. But why FoS two people of which 1 is bound to not be scum?

Because both are acting suspicious.

[Snakenstein]

Maybe at deadline the top voted pair is lynched? I guess that would make the most sense in that position. At this point it doesn't seem like much is happening. I almost want a lynch just to get some sort of information going. My QT hasn't had any responses except my one since the sixth of February.

Yeah, I agree. Animo showed up briefly, but added nothing.

Vote: Animopherv

[Snakenstein]

So, suspecting someone (even if for a short period of time) is nothing?

Yeah. I think that Fos'ing me for Fos'ing you is pretty much nothing. You've done nothing to improve your situation. Oddly enough, I think you could improve your situation if you wanted. So, why the empty posts? If you're town, then do something town already.

[Snakenstein]

Votecount:

kunkstar7 (0)
clayman (0)
Max (0)
farside22 (1) gameplayah
animorpherv1 (4) farside22, kunkstar7, Max, Snakenstein
Sanhora (0)
gameplayah (2) animorpherv1, Sanhora
Snakenstein (0)

Not Voting: clayman

It takes five votes to lynch.

Deadline is February 22, 2010 at 6:00 PM EST.

I'm in the process of finding a replacement for clayman. gameplayah has been prodded, and I will be prodding farside22 and Sanhora momentarily. Due to clayman needing to be replaced, deadline is back to the 22nd.

And as you stated before, this game really needs to pick up.

[Snakenstein]

I think the scum pair is either:

Sanhora and Snake
or
Farside22 and Snake

game and kunk have both been lurking, but I think an active pair is more likely to contain scum.

Well, I guess this doesn't make me look very good. My own lover threatening to lynch me. Ironically, that is why I thought you were town on D1, for concluding (illogically IMO) that it was in your best interest to lynch me because

you

knew that

you

were town.

I'll need a few minutes to think about your logic on this one. For the purposes of logical discussion, lets just state your suspicion more succinctly as "the two most active pairs are scum pairs". Obviously all four of us will claim to be town as you have.

[Snakenstein]

Well, that obv failed.

Go Town, I think.

I was going to commend you on a job well done, but the thread was locked. Kind of glad I didn't now that I'm a suspect.

[Snakenstein]

Looking at the vote count:

farside22 (1) gameplayah
animorpherv1 (5) farside22, kunkstar7, Max, Snakenstein, CSL
Sanhora (0)
gameplayah (2) animorpherv1, Sanhora

There is no doubt scum was on this vote. This leads me to believe Sanhora town more over since I know my own alignment and with gameplayah all but invisible I but him under the unknown with kunkstar, max and snake as my main 3.

Since max seems to believe his partner as scum. Lets put this to the test.

vote: Snakenstein

I'm sorry I haven't said much because I just don't know how to respond. All I can say is that I'm town, and I would normally suspect my accuser of being scum, but I can't because scum would never want to lynch themselves (which is effectively what Max is promoting - sacrificing himself). That's the right thing to do if he thinks I'm scum. I agree that it is reasonable to presume that scum were active in the lynch. However, it is also reasonable to presume that scum were inactive, because animo basically offered himself up as a target. I actually pleaded for team clayman-animo to analyze eachother and contribute. They didn't, and then CSL came in and self-destructed.

It is reasonable to test Max's resolve on this by threatening to lynch me, but it is also reasonable to discuss whether the "lurkers are town" theory is solid.

[Snakenstein]

Since I'm being accused by Max as being scum, I think it reasonable to paraphrase our QT discussion from my perspective, so that others can determine if I've been scummy. I won't go into the actual back and forth of the discussion, but just paraphrase it.

Max stated that he didn't like Sanhora's position, and I responded that I agreed with Sanhora that it was better to discuss before reveal. I noted that this was my first lover game, and figured that the secret pairings must have been designed for some purpose, and that we could always reveal later, but once revealed we can't take it back. He disagreed completely and stated that it was better for both town and scum to know the setup.

He said that he found farside's approach interesting. I responded that I didn't know how to leverage the lover pairs, but that farside was exploring an angle that might be productive. I then asked if we should play along, or if we should be deceiptful in case we might be getting duped. I stated that I would rather wait to respond to get a better sense of where farside was going. Maybe 10 minutes later, I noted that I was approaching this all wrong with the realization that the scum already knew all the information and that they wouldn't be striving to gain information about pairings, but they would merely be trying to cast suspicion.

After that, we got into our discussion about his strategy which presumed that there was a 50/50 chance that I was scum. As I stated earlier, I disagreed and we went back and forth on that. Eventually, I noted that his logic effectively stated that "if I can determine that you are scum, then I can be 100% certain that you are scum." However, I did agree with his point that the partners would be in the best position to evaluate their partner as scum/town and that they should be actively pursuing it. As I stated in thread, this is the reason I voted for animo. After I had stated that he was doing the town a disservice by not investigating his partner, he still did not make a concerted effort to do so, so I voted for him.

So, from my perspective, my discussions and actions are all town with the minor exception that I expressed concern about farside's line of questioning and wondered whether to be honest. Once realizing that the pairings were known, I realized that the line of questioning would not likely be harmful.

[Snakenstein]

Don't think that Max is possibly scum seeing as he is willing to put himself at L-1. Thats something I was waiting for Max, to see if you would be willing to go for it. Yet Snake seems the prime candidate right now.

Vote: Snake

I guess that's ballgame. No chance max is scum if he would put me at L-1 with his vote.

[Snakenstein]

Boy, this game was really tough to play with so little interaction. I was confused on how to play at the start because I've never been scum and never played lover mafia. I thought it was actually difficult because animo may it so easy to lynch him. I tried to get them engaged so that we didn't just lynch for lurking, but he never even tried to get a read on his partner or contribute anything. I thought that lynching him was completely justified. Of course, what do I know, I'm scum.

Also, I had almost zero interaction with gameplayah. Unfortunately, this game just never came around. Hopefully the next game will be more interactive.