Open 193 - Friends and Enemies: It's over!
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No, I'm serious about Baltar. I like a jovial atmosphere early D1 because I find if I get bogged down in irritable or prickly discussion it only serves to amplify confirmation bias. But out of everyone, I think VP's the scummiest so far.
I think that's why I find Amished's comment so bizarre, saying on page 7 that you believe one out of two people on VP's wagon has to be scum strikes me as stronge.
(I don't know why I typed that word but it seems to be a mixture of 'strange' and 'strong' which actually echoes my feeling about it, so I'm going to leave it there. It was very stronge of you, Amished.)I'm old now.-
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Unforunately, it's going to weigh upon you then. I'm not inclined to argue something just for the sake of it - usually because my writing is so eloquent and my observations so intelligent I usually convince myself that it's true
Seriously though, I'm not sure where your meta is coming from but my activity on D1 varies greatly depending on if there's something that I think needs to be said. At the moment I don't have much to argue and so I don't argue much.
I don't have any solid reasons for voting VP, it's just gut.
Ojanen - no votes yet?I'm old now.-
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See, it's rubbish comments like that one from VP that I don't like. He's not bitching about a lack of content, he's making a specific accusation against you. His argument said you are hypocritical for attacking someone for only having a gut reason when you yourself have used mostly gut so far to come to your reads. This is scumhunting, or what passes for it early on D1.
You also invoked lynch all liars for what barely passed for a 'lie', you were surprised Albert was touchy when being accused of scum, alluded to meta reasons for suspecting Albert but produced none when asked, Didn't join the Albert wagon until there was someone else on it.
So yep, you're the scummiest person around at the moment, just on the usual D1 straws.
Vi, expand on your VP read - what do you think of these issues I raise?I'm old now.-
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I made no argument as to whether I agree with his assessment, only that saying he isn't scumhunting is utterly untrue. He is not arguing you are failing to provide content, he is arguing you are being hypocritical and attempting to show why. This is known as scumhunting.
This quote is pure rubbish. The man is scumhunting.Also, is there a point in this game when you're going to stop bitching about there not being content and actually scumhunt?
As for the rest, invoking lynch all liars is importnat. You are saying that the man should be lynched because he is lying and we need to maintain a disclipline not to lie in thread. I think you did it way too early and way too flippantly. I didn't like it.
Attacking someone without voting them until someone else does shows a possibility that you are feeling out attacks or that you're not prepared to push a read unless there's support. I'm not accusing you of following anyone, I'm accusing you of not backing your reads and being prepared to go out on a limb.
I've read the thread, I read your comments about the meta issue, and they were an inadequate response in my eyes. I also disagree with your conclusion, which is possibly adding to my distaste.
Anyway, I'm doing my best to remember this is a 5% D1 case and so I'm not going to argue it unless you make any particularly ridiculous statement. These are my reasons for my vote.
I'd still like Vi's opinion.I'm old now.-
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Also, as a side note, I'm realy getting the shits when people flip out because I'm defending people. I tend to be decent when working out who to defend. I've played with sando and accused him, wrongly, of being scum before. I'm not sticking up for my mate, I'm showing how your argument is bad.I'm old now.-
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Stupid friends and enemies. Who decided on this bad setup
Everyone, cut it out about the LAL stuff. I'm sure he as scum didn't think he was going to pull a fast one and deny it out of existence. As soon as he starts yelling in capitals that he didn't do something he obviously did it's a breakdown in communication, not a scumtell. Was going to rip into sando, but he had the good sense to reread and come to the same conclusion.
charlatan, however, did not. I also am NOT loving the 'arguments are contrived on both sides, I'm prepared to vote on either' from him either. Charlatan jumps striaght into the number two scummy position.
Vi - I have known Sando in real life for ~12 years, including living together during university. We're good friends in real life. I've watched some of his games thoroughly and played in two completed ones. He has a very aggressive and prickly style that tends to attract suspicion. I actually see a lot of similarity between the start of this game and the start of the last game we played together, where he was the D1 lynch as a townie. I don't have nearly as much of a town read on him in this game as I did in the other, but the day is young.I'm old now.-
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Yes....
Vi, I don'tk now if you were following the game, but here is the answer to your issues: the previous incarnation of this game
A quick skim of sando and why he was lynched D1, and a quick skim of my defense of him and pushing of Amished might give you a clue as to VP's attitude, my attitude and sando's playstyle.
What was weird to me about the exchange with VP was that, at least form my perspective, he made a bad point on Sando, I pointed it out and he went straight to 'you're full butt hurt for your friend'. No looking at other games I've played with sando where were town-town fought and scum accused, no acknowledgement that in the game he's drawing his conclusions off I was right and the wagon I was pushing instead was scum that was never lynched. And I barely said anything in sando's favour, my main point was that VP was deflecting with a shallow attack.
It doesn't feel right from him.I'm old now.-
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Vi, that's rubbish. If you are going to say that an argument has personal links rather
than deal with it on it's merits, it really is your responsibility to do that work. I'm not playing his oracle, all I did was say that he was indeed scumhunting and vp's criticism is unfair. As far as I'm aware, you agreed with that point (with the proviso that in earlier posts you felt he wasn't providing much of content) so i'm not seeing where you are coming from ATM.
However, I'm officially jumping ship to charlatan. I'm going to avoid confirmation bias if it kills me and I get the impression I'm on the wrong track, good reasons or no.
unvote, vote charlatanI'm old now.-
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VP and Amished - what do you think of Ojanen so far?
VP - I am going off the town hunt thing. I wasn't successful so much in correctly identifying town - I was OK, but not great. The lessons from it are 1) beware of conf bias early at all costs and b) be very prepared to look for townies as well as look for scum.
I was already going off the strict look purely for town when I played 880, hence I pushed Amished scum, and i've been doing a mix of both for a little while now.
Charlatan - you looked at two arguing parties and said you didn't like either person's argument and are now preparing to vote one of them. Essentially, you didn't comment on the argument, explain which arguments you thought were good or not and you left yourself room to vote for whichever one started losing the argument. It wasn't just opportunistic, it was setting yourself up to be opportunistic later when you really could tell what was the best wagon to hop on.
And if two people are arguing against each other with poor reasons (aside from the facti t's early on D1) I don't know why you wouldn't address the issues. It seems really odd to me to have two opposite players you find scummy for attackign someone with bad reasons, yet being ready to join one of them to attack the other.
VP - the meta of Albert is from an ongoing F&E game where he said not to look for connections in game then died and town flipped.I'm old now.-
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Charlatan, if you have an argument between player A and player B and you're voting A but say you could be prepared to vote B because they are both scummy then yes - this is still fence sitting and you still look to be opportunistically waiting to commit to one side of the wagon. Your major objection seems to be that you were already voting Albert, but my main criticism has always been that you found two people arguing with each other each scummy, which is at least a conflicting view of the game.
When asked about why weak reasoning is scummy, you suggest that scum are likely to start looking at ways they can attaack players, not looking at things players should be attacked for. This implies that you don't like weak reasoning because it shows scum looking for reasons to attack townies.
So if you don't like Albert's weak reasoning, then presumably that should give you town vibes on VP. Yet you didn't have those vibes, you thought he was scummy too. But, again presumably, you couldn't be using the same arguments as ABR, because they were stretched and why you were voting for ABR in the first place!
I had to shake my head to try to get it back on straight after that. My criticism (which isn't affected by whether you had voted one of them first, incidentally) is that you were fence sitting between two arguing parties with this internally inconsistent view that they were both using weak reasons to attack a townie. Saying you are comfortable voting the person your current top suspect is attacking with weak reasons is indeed scummy to me.
Looking back over your posts, I'm not sure what you ever found scummy about VP, aside from jumping on my point about VP's LAL which was again pretty opportunistic and scummy given that at the time you did so it was obviously a mistake.
How do you balance this viewpoint of the game with this:Charlatan wrote:No, I really do not. I have already explained that the only way I know to get anything close to sincere responses out of Rampageis to attack him, and to do so at full speed.So, if I had actually answered this question it would have looked like this: "Well, Vi, I am voting him because he did a scummy thing and I want to put some pressure on him and see if it gleans more information."
Since pressure votes are pointless when you say that's what they're for, I decided I would not answer that question at that moment.That was instance #2 in this game of me putting too much faith in this playerbase.
Unvote.
It seems to me you were far from attacking him full speed, in fact during this piece of play you were actively agreeing that his target was rising in scumminess and indicating you found his target scummy. You have a lot of rhetoric about getting in Albert's face, and aside from a vote on someone else's reasoning (well, bits of it anyway, because apparantly some of the OMGUS action is OK and some of it not) I just haven't seen that from you.charlatan wrote:
Just that, that it is indeed rising. I think arguments on both sides of the fence are contrived, and am comfortable with voting in either direction more than for anyone else in the game at this time.Albert B. Rampage wrote:Zorblag can definitely attest to how reluctant I am to provide reasoning when asked. I say what I mean and mean what I say when I think it's the time for me to say it. What do you think of VPB's rising scumminess?
Now, as for your vote on me, do you think I'm the most scummy person in the game after your re-read? Did I overtake Albert or are you just not keen to place your vote back on him?
I'm not getting your case at all though. You never actually address a single argument I raise, more when I raise it and why. So I voted VP on gut and then afterwards tried to crystalise why I was feeling like that. It was spurred by a particular post VP made that I didn't like and I went back trying to collect a few of those kinds of statements to give people an understanding of why I was voting him.
I thought my reasons for voting you were self-evident given I had previously pointed out two major things you did that were scummy and that you had risen to 2nd on my scumlist. When I decided that I was likely to be wrong on VP I switched over to you - my previously mentioned second suspect.
I then had to explain in detail why I felt your fencesitting was scummy, which you objected to primarily because you were already voting Albert, which I see as largely irrelevent. I've tried to expand on that above, but in the end I don't care whether you think it's a scumtell or not, fencesitting and fanning the flames of an argument by saying both sides are scummy is a scumtell.
And your drawing a connection of me to Rampage is odd in that you feel his agreeing with my argument against you gave me 'permission' to vote you. Do you think if we were scum together I'd need his permission to switch votes?I'm old now.-
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I have to run but arg sentence of extreme irritation.As for me pointing out the timing of things, I think your votes suggest the opportunism that you are ironically accusing me of. You've spent half of your energy voting where the action is with flawed justification and the other half defending your right to irrationally defend Sando.
I've made very few comments on Sando's alignment this game, and in the two other games I've played with him, I've accused him of being scum and town respectively. And then as for opportunism, I think both times I voted someone I was placing the first vote on that person. So if the action is centered around me, it's because I made it via, you know, content and arguments.
><I'm old now.-
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Another game has eaten up a fair bit of my time, sorry for that.
Charlatan, I don't like it when people question gut. Players rolling off gut reads is the way to play. In fact, you're attacking me not for having a gut read on VP but then expanding upon it later.
I echo ABR and Ojanen about semantics. Your point about factual inaccuracies, which you rely upon a lot, is nothing more than a semantic issue that is so close to what you actually said as to be almost indistinguishable. I'd also like to hear what parts of VP's postings you didn't agree with.
@ all: Where are the votes? I'm seeing Vi, Ojanen and others agreeing or actively arguing against Charlatan and not seeing the votes coming forth. I find Ojanen's lack of a substantial vote particularly disturbing, given I found it scummy way back in 290 when she voted Porkchop (hence why I asked a couple of others who have a meta of her what they thought.)
I have just pushed a case on DDD based on his lack of input D1 and been burned by him being town, so I'm not too enthusiastic about making the same mistake twice, although his content has been abysmal in my eyes. I'd also like an answer as to your second highest suspect, please.
I will admit that the wagon on Porkchop has some merit though. He asks charlatan why he would unvote and leave his vote up in the air rather than vote his next top suspect but he also hasn't moved his vote from the RVS stage. He says it's unreasonable of DDD to hide behind a playstyle of his own choosing, but that doesn't help anything really - it's certainly not an argument for DDDscum, more just DDDinconsiderate or something like that.
Finally, I'm not quite enamoured with Albert yet. I haven't seen him move out of second gear, and definitely wouldn't consider him any better than neutral at the moment.I'm old now.-
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Here is the link to the DDD game i referred to.
If you promise not to look at my reads, this is what's making me very hesitant about the DDD wagon. I made almost identical points to you, I think.I'm old now.-
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4am, quick post:
sando - I am not - if you search in iso you'll see I answered that to VP earlier. I've admended my D1 playstyle back to doing a mix of both and have been for a little while now.
@whoever asked: I don't have much of a read on sando at all right now. I feel he hasn't really gotten into the swing of the game yet.
@Ojanen - what sando said. One of the few ways I can tell you're scum is that you are less reckless. Either way you make well constructed arguments which are well-researched, but as scum you tend to hold off on your vote for a long time and add to the discussion without leading the discussion. Your lack of vote this game worries me.I'm old now.-
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Ugh Amished, I hate those questions. At the risk of echoing some of VP,
1) His early positions were vague and weak. Fence sat on VP vs ABR, when called to had very little challenging VP at all, including some things that were arguably flat out contradictions. Tried to use the LAL point after it was obviously null and others had seen it come and go.
2) His attacks have been terrible. The case against me was always bad and a bizarre choice no doubt inspired by the position he was in and the pressure he was under. He then moved to VP for no paritcular reason (I mean come on - if we're voting based on urgency I don't have to move my vote at all!)
3) Shenanigans! Little things I don't like. Unvoting for a re-read and then voting a third party with nothing really instigating the change. The tone of his posts, his choice of targets, how difficult it is to get people who suspect him to vote him, the hyperbole..I'm old now.-
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To be fair, VP, I think we've only actually been town together once in a completed game, Bigbear's one in which we lost terribly (and agreed on scum D1 though).
Emerald I was scum,
Amished you were cult,
/inv 4 you were scum,
Dark Goma you were scum,
So maybe that's why we haven't agreed much. Interestingly, the results for those games seem to be going my way as well - is that 3.5 to 0.5?I'm old now.-
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A wise man whose ego may be raised as an unfortunate byproduct of me saying this, once taught me not to try to convince the person you're attacking.
I have looked instead at others who haven't voted you and tried to get them on board, which was the purpose of providing Amished with the reasons to vote you in the first place.
The walls between us have reached a point of diminished returns. I don't think you've answered well. Judging by apparant suspicion of you, we have a majority of the town that's prepared to lynch you, but the votes on you never quite reach where they should be reaching. Your attacks remain terrible. I still think you're scum and want to continue voting you because of that.I'm old now.-
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If it was heckle VP day I'd point out that I think I called you out as scum (or at least had very heavy suspicions of you) in all three.wtf is this, heckle-VP day?
Oh - oops!
Amished - I'd already been moving away from walls, which is what i was saying to charlatan. But I understand your point. I have consistently mentioned that it's hard to draw votes onto charlatan recently, not just in 458.
Fair enough. I'm probably the wrong person to say this too though, I've actually tried playing games where for the first day ALL I do is look for town and then lynch pretty much randomly amongst the rest. I think town reads are important, and especially so early.charlatan wrote:I was mostly poking fun, don't take things so seriously. He knows what I'm referring to, and anyways I'm of the general opinion that any time you're certain someone's town in the first day or two of the game, that's when it's best to rethink.I'm old now.-
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We've just had a game where charlatan skillfully convinced the entire town that he was a townie. He never looked like being lynched and didn't make any glaring mistakes that I noticed.
Why then would we assume his ability was poor this game? Why would we suggest, as Albert does, that he will make 'more' mistakes later on during the game?
Rubbish.I'm old now.-
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My point is not to make a meta argument for charlatan being scum, my point is that dismissing his bad arguments as a lack of skill doesn't ring true, we all know him to be a skillful player. When a player I know to be skillful makes bad arguments, I view it as scummy.
So far Albert's arguments seem to me to be the opposite of what I expect.
I don't see charlatan's lynch as an easier solution than PCE, or charlatan as a player who one can dismiss bad arguments as bad play.I'm old now.-
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I don't know, Ojanen. I actually like most of the people on the charlatan wagon (pre-ABR and Reck) as town, despite the flip.
I really don't like Albert's play this game but I can't tell if it's scummy. I felt he changed to charlatan using a case based on entirely other people's reasoning. He can claim he was right all he likes today, but he jumped on the wagon when he didn't need to (the absense of a deadline gives you asm uch time as you need to make your case, not rushes you into a lynch).
But what's the motivation? Jump in, get a townie lynched and try to ditch the responsibility? I don't know.
As for lynch suspects, I think Ojanen, Reck or Porkchop are all there for me.
Why did the case on Porkchop die, Albert?I'm old now.-
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Vi - xRx came onto my scumlist during the wagon hopping yesterday and PCE was always lightly scummy, I just thought the charlatan argument wasn't resolved
SC wrote:I will admit that the wagon on Porkchop has some merit though. He asks charlatan why he would unvote and leave his vote up in the air rather than vote his next top suspect but he also hasn't moved his vote from the RVS stage. He says it's unreasonable of DDD to hide behind a playstyle of his own choosing, but that doesn't help anything really - it's certainly not an argument for DDDscum, more just DDDinconsiderate or something like that.
This is the third game I'm playing with Reck and I can't make heads or tails of his play. Honestly, it's frustrating me to no end and I'm wondering whether it's worth chickening out on the play and taking a bit more time on this.SC wrote:ABR, PCE is up there as scummy for me too but I'm not done with charlatan yet and I'm frustrated you'd pull yet another wagon to distract. Do you have a town read on charlatan now or are you just more confident about PCE?
Where's Albert?I'm old now.-
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I felt like of the wagon yesterday, even though it was on town, that the first 5 members were all pretty townie. That's VP, you, me, Amished and Troll. The last 2, Albert and Reck, didn't come accross like that. The switch to PCE and then the charge back seemed odd, and I've asked Albert what the purpose of his big post denouncing charalatan and voting him at the end of D1 was without response.
But Reck's movements were also poor and his suspicions are all over the place. I started the wagon to see what sort of gut support there was for a Reck wagon. Turns out there's absolutely plenty. This is not necessarily a good sign. It either means he's obv scum and me calling for a wagon awakened a bit of gut in people, or it means that he's a good mislynch and the opportunists have popped on board.
As much as I was an instigator, as far as I'm aware I've given no reasons for anyone to join the wagon, so it's not like I've pushed it other than give people a license to join it. VP made a case and joined directly after I suggested it and Albert now seems very keen to lynch, both somewhat out of nowhere.
I'm more and more convinced that DDD is town. I think sando is quite possibly town, unless he's going for an epic derail with a buddy at L-1.
Ojanen is still straddling them iddle on every argument, it seems. It's hard when she's semi-VLA, and in Reck's case I too am sitting on the fence I suppose, but you know:
:/Ojanen wrote:Sucks so bad that I'm in the same place as with charlatan wagon again.
Reck could well be scum and there's a bunch of arguments I can relatively easily see against him, but not sure yet if he's scummy scummy or susceptible to peer pressure (cause I was feeling it end of D1 too)+not big on memory. Gut isn't convinced either way and that's all that's ever been worth anything in my reads. Aaaargh.
You know what? I'm going to go with my gut andunvote, vote Albert
I could be completely off base about this but a few things disturb me. I don't know why Albert would vote charlatan with a large case and then the next day talk about how right he was about charlatan being town. Then the 'I would have defended him if he was more useful' and 'his badness was good for a vote but not a lynch' when his vote was at l-1.
I don't like how Albert has been rushing every lynch, calling for deadlines and the like. This is the exact opposite of behaviour he displayed in the ongoing previously mentioned where he wanted to use as much time as possible to gain information.
I don't feel Albert's pressure is the usual townxplosion that I get from him, either. A bit of arrogance and strutting does not a town Albert make.
And I don't like Albert's turning on Reck, who he was siding with all day 1. Especially because Albert has repeatedly said that Reck's scumminess has been all game, not just D2.
Perhaps this is a day early, but that's what I'm feeling at the moment.I'm old now.-
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In game related terms -
If your first vote was a good vote, what was your second one? A bad vote? You still haven't answered why you decided to decided to wax lyrical about my case on charlatan and vote him when you were certain he was town - even if you thought his lynch was inevitable.
I actually tried to find it and couldn't, and thought I was going totally insane, but then I went to the end of Day 1 and I realise you made it under a different account. Why did you post that under your 'Rampage' account and not under your 'Albert B. Rampage' account?
The post is hereI'm old now.-
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And yet you spent the start of the day crowing about how right you were about him being town while you were on his wagon. Same with PCE - you were 85% sure (that's a quote) that he was scum yesterday and have not touched him today without giving a reason except something vague about 'not being able to afford to lose him'.I'm old now.-
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No, it wasn't nearly as formulated as that, and it didn't have Albert in mind. I felt that Reck was scummy on gut and I wanted to see if other players were of the same mind. What was surprising was how quickly the wagon got to L-1 from me simply saying 'hey gaiz, lets lynch reck kthx'.Sando wrote:Serial, you seem to be saying that your vote on Reck was to see how ABR reacted, and that he reacted as you expected scum to react (jumping on the wagon). Are you saying this was your plan all along?
My switch to Albert was made because of the reasons given, it wasn't a premeditated trap.
The case on VP is not bad, and I'm glad to see Ojanen psyching up. I'm sorry I continue to point out when you don't take a position, even if it's obvious, but it's important that you don't get away with it. Besides, we can use your vote if you're scum, you bus-machine
I would like to hear from both Vi and Troll please. Vi on developments and Troll on VP.I'm old now.-
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You don't need the first bit - that's implied.Ojanen wrote:See, it's obviously a win-win. Hmm, how did this thing work? Oh yeah.
I'm sooo awesome. You should get on my sexy wagon.
I might, actually. Will have a bit of time to think.
In the meantime, Alberty, what's with the Vi townread? I've been noticing a pattern of shitstirring that I'm uncool with.I'm old now.-
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Ugh appeal to Zoblag authority. [godfather] Every time I try to get out you pull me right back in [/godfather]
When I said Vi was shitstirring, I didn't mean you were kicking arse and taking names, I meant you were asking questions that might be designed to get others arguing with each other, rather than direct questions. Upon review, I think that perception was coloured by asking me to respond to sando's brief meta argument and it actually wasn't as much of a pattern as memory suggested it was.
Interestingly, the people who I think aren't shining examples of scumhunting are the people I feel most comfortable are town. I think sando and DDD are both quite probably town.
Now we've just got to sort through the rest of the bunch.
I don't know that ABR is being ABR. He's got the arrogance and everything, but I'm not seeing the fire, and the tunnelling and the passion so much. I expected the OMGUS vote on me, but then drifting off somewhere else is odd. Plus I don't see a reason why he's gone from PCE is scum to we can't lynch PCE. (let alone having about 3 people who he is sure are scum).
Having said all that, I saw a bit in Ojanen's case that was disturbingly hitting home. Zorblag and I thought Amished was a mason warning us off voting VP on D1, which is what all our crappy secretive code structure was and the double take from me on D1. I imagine the scum were trying to kill masons, so either someone else noticed it or troll is looking scummy. Or our fail secret talk gave it away.
Plus at the moment my wagon has not a huge amount of support, and hito is voting without Albert meta, I think.I'm old now.-
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The 'sexy wagon' reference was a game where Ojanen replaced in and I asked her to join the wagon I was pushing at the time by saying 'come join my sexy wagon'. Unfortuantely for me she was also scum, didn't bus her buddy and killed me that night.
But the fact she referenced it and the way she finally took something up and responded to the pressure a little more vigorously is good times.
@ Albert: Fair enough.
Reck's is a poor wagon, imo.
vote VP BaltarI'm old now.-
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That was a different game, sando, that was the one with bigmc etc, not the previous incarnation of this one.
My understanding is that he feels I derailed the reck lynch then worked my way off Albert and onto VP, who is town. I think that's right - it doesn't make sense to vote my scumbuddy Albert out of the blue if Reck is town, and it doesn't make sense to work my way off of Albert and onto VP if Albert is town, so I think that's his opinion at the moment. If I've misrepresented you, by all means correct me, hito.
I think in vacuum that indecisive 'I might join another wagon' thing can be a red flag, it's just in the context of who I was talking to and about that his theory pretty quickly descends.I'm old now.-
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