Open 189~Trouble@Warren State Mental Hosp (Over)

[havingfitz]

Hello....reading up.

[havingfitz]

Fitz sure fits into this game perfectly!

Because of the name or because I've only posted once (twice now).

I'll try to finish up my read tomorrow and get my thoughts (or a vote) posted. While I read up...could people provide their top two suspects?

[havingfitz]

OK...did my first ISo on what appears to be the frontrunner for scum. Rosso Carne. He's made 20 posts and added absolutely nothing to the game. No content of any worth. I'll defer to the confirmed and presumed townies on his wagon and coupled with his lack of contribution..

Vote Rosso Carne

If I'm right...yeah! If I'm wrong...2-3 days to refine my read on the game.

[havingfitz]

The reasons looked better last night with wine glasses on.

That said...he was a frontrunner, at least one confirmed townie was voting him, he had posted absolutely nothing of value, and I'm not a patient person.

Regardless of the degree of horrible you think my reasons are...if RC is scum....it won't matter. If he's town...we'll have another lynch to analyze. What were you reasons again for voting him?

[havingfitz]

lol, well Captain Hyper-Sensitivity, good to see you could join us on this mystery ship.

My point was that you voted him over pretty much every meta reason that is typical for Rosso regardless of alignment. He never contributes anything of substance to the game.

I voted him because a logical process of elimination says to me that either he or Vi is the last scum. I don't think it's Vi.

I'd like to hear your full thoughts on all of the living players at the moment since it'll probably take tubby a bit to put this game into night.

If my reply to your "horrible reasons' comment comes across as hyper-sensitive perhaps you are hyper-sensitive. I'm not bothered by my vote reasoning or your comments at all. Since I have never played with you before and you felt the need to opine on my vote I thought you deserved the courtesy of a reply.

I was occupied enough with catching up on what is in this game to worry about other's metas from other games. If RC never brings anything to his games than that's a pretty cr@p meta to have and a real detriment to his fellow townies whenever he is town.

I'll give my thoughts on other players after RC's fate is known. No reason to waste effort in the event he is scum.

And thanks! Hopefully the ship is done sailing.

[havingfitz]

My town--->scum spectrum goes from Sotty--->Vi.

Just finished Vi ISO. Will start VP ISO tomorrow to see which side of Vi I think fits him best.

[havingfitz]

Reasoning with either of those reads?

Will effort to get reasoning out today.

[havingfitz]

Hmm So it comes down to if the mod deems the mafia kill as compulsive then, which he probably doesn't.

...

fitz, the game won't go anywhere without you. Please continue.

Sorry I did not get a chance to post thoughts yesterday. RL got in the way (three kids in need of dad's taxi service and one celebrating a b-day yesterday). I'm on GMT so I might get them in before the US crowd logs in. Since we're such a small intimate group...I'll let it be known that I am town, regardless of what the mod says about night actions when players with night actions (which I have none of) are away.

I have completed my ISOs on Sotty/Qooq and Vi and though I did not take notes during my review...my sense (I know that is not a good reason for others to grasp) tells me she is town. Despite the fact she has been mafia and fooled me everytime [1] we have played. Still need to review VP and compare my thoughts on him to those on Vi. At first glance their voting patterns were very similar...though VP seems to have been a little more committed to getting rid of HR. While I continue to digest the game...feel free to revisit/elaborate/post your suspicions on your fellow mental patients as well.

[havingfitz]

While I continue to digest the game...feel free to revisit/elaborate/post your suspicions on your fellow mental patients as well.

You win a point for your effort in trying to cover up your lack of effort.

You have 20 hours.

What do you consider effort? I haven't seen anything from you since I have joined this game. Resting on your earlier posts? Ignoring my legitimate request for a recap of your suspicions? I don't live on here and have checked in as often as possible to at least let you all know where I was in the game. So chill and perhaps start playing again. And what happens in 20 hours? Till you post again? Till you vote for me? You have 5 minutes.

*************************************

OK..finished ISO on VP. He bussed HR pretty hard from the beginning. The main thing that concerned me were comments VP made on more than one occassion concerning the fact that no scum would bus their partner the entire game in a two scum set up. Which makes me of course think he is scum bussing his partner the entire game. I want to look at Vi again in throughout the game (and not in ISO) to see what was others were doing and what may have precipitated some of her comments/votes. Still think Sotty is town (and I was referring to Sotty in my earlier post) but I would not be as quick to place a vote on either VP or Vi as I was on Rosso.

[havingfitz]

When I made my process of elimination Yesterday, I cleared two people based on their HowardRoark history (and in Sotty's case, not much more), one for being mod-confirmed innocent without bothering much with their history, and one for being implied innocent without bothering much with their history. One of those was a mistake that I caused, and I'm going to take back right now.

Consider the following modding dilemma. Starting D4 with no kill at all would have been the same as throwing the game for the scum; it would have logically implied that the absentee was scum. Meanwhile, Xdaamno-Cop was an obvious choice for the NK (and not at all random). With no replacement immediately forthcoming, it would not be out of the question for HowardRoark to proxy a kill for BloodCovenent on his way out simply to keep the game moving.

Therefore, I contend that BloodCovenent - and now havingfitz - is

not

confirmed Town.

I've only been in one game where inactivity during night supported someone's innocence. And coincidentally it was in the lone game I have played with Sotty. One of my top suspects went awol and after night actions were made I switched opinion away from him..rightfully so. I do not think a mod would perform a NK and I highly doubt a mod would allow lynched scum (HR) to perform an action post-lynching. Your initial assessment that BC's absence meant he couldn't be scum hass turned out to be accurate. Congrats...(if you didn't already know it).

Now, let's look at the trail left by fitz's predecessors.

No comment as for the most part I have not looked at my predecessors' posts (since I know what my role is) and I can not speak for/defend anything they may have said.

And then we have fitz.
One thing that's really raising red flags is his repeated attempts to get US to do the work for HIM.

While I read up...could people provide their top two suspects?

While I continue to digest the game...feel free to revisit/elaborate/post your suspicions on your fellow mental patients as well.

Without our input - which I'm grateful for your cooperation on, btw

You're welcome? To each his own. When I replace into games (which are about half of the games I play in...I they are very lengthy I will look to the existing players for the current state of their opinions. I can't help it if you find fault with that. In a game 30+ pages long...I am going to consider any info I can get. And iirc...neither YOU or VP have responded, i.e., done any of the work for ME

- we got this:

My town--->scum spectrum goes from Sotty--->Vi.

This bothers me. Normally when people post a visual representation, they're referring to someone being --- this much scummier than someone else. That's the major reason you can't just say "Sotty is more likely Town; Vi isn't".

What's your point here? That's basically what I was saying. I think Sotty is town. I was (and am) getting a scum feel towards you, and I wasn't sure when I made the 'visual representation' where VP fit. I never realized dashes were a scumtell.

But even if you're not into that, let's go further.

Reasoning with either of those reads?

Will effort to get reasoning out today.

*though I did not take notes during my review...my sense (I know that is not a good reason for others to grasp) tells me she is town. Despite the fact she has been mafia and fooled me everytime [1] we have played.

*Still need to review VP and compare my thoughts on him to those on Vi. At first glance their voting patterns were very similar...though VP seems to have been a little more committed to getting rid of HR.

The main thing that concerned me were comments VP made on more than one occassion concerning the fact that no scum would bus their partner the entire game in a two scum set up. Which makes me of course think he is scum bussing his partner the entire game.

*1) This is the most qualified gut Town read I've read in a while. That last sentence would validate a later Sotty wagon if it became convenient.

The last sentence was made jokingly and I do not see myself voting for Sotty as I think she is town (or at least the least scummy of the three of you)

*2) Notice that there are no reasons given for me being scum.

My read on you left me feeling you could be scum. I said I was going to take another look at you. If/when I vote for you I will provide reasons

*3) Not bussing your only scumpartner is what most people call "good play"; it's an Open setup, these sorts of theories are entirely valid and rather bad ideas to disagree with if you can't back it up. If this is your only reason for believing VP Baltar is scum, it sounds like you

want

him to be scum

I was simply stating the only thing during my read on VP that caught me attention. His repeated mention of what scum wouldn't do could cover the fact that scum was actually doing it (ie bussing their partner). While I do not have the same town feel towards VP that I do towards Sotty...I'm not prepared to consider VP scummier than you...which is why I am going to take another look at you out of ISO

My comments in bold above (and below).

Last, take a look at this hammer on Rosso Carne.

I'll try to finish up my read tomorrow

and get my thoughts (or a vote) posted.

OK...did my first ISo on what appears to be the frontrunner for scum. Rosso Carne. He's made 20 posts and added absolutely nothing to the game. No content of any worth. I'll defer to the confirmed and presumed townies on his wagon and coupled with his lack of contribution..

Vote Rosso Carne

He finished his read on time and voted the next day? No, these posts were

six minutes apart

. We just didn't care at the time because it was Rosso Carne getting killed.

And why didn't you all care? Because the remaining scum was about to remove another townie and because the remaining townies thought they had identified scum. As did I.

Notice the inconsistency in how much information he has. In the first post, he had not finished reading. In the second post, he was ISOing someone (normally something you don't do without finishing your initial read) and already referred to "confirmed and presumed Townies" (which would have required him to have been up to D3 when Xd cleared SlySly, which would have put him at the end of the read), whoever they were - notice that of the two "presumed Townies" that were not him at the time, one wasn't on the wagon at all (Sotty7) and the other is someone he's trying to accuse now (VP Baltar).

I was not referring to VP as a confirmed townie...I was referring to Slysly...who was on the RC wagon and was confirmed.

And, really. A hammer as soon as you come in and before you finish reading? Claiming to be "not a patient person" doesn't seem to match his present behavior, what with not laying a vote when it's perfectly safe...

I had skimmed through the game prior to saying 'finishing my read' so I was already aware of some of the details in the game (ex. who was confirmed town and scum from lynches/NKs and investigations). The finishing my read comment was immediately followed by an ISO on RC's contributions, which as I stated...were crap and is what was the primary reason for my RC vote. I'm not patient...especially once I think I have scum ID'd. As for not laying down a 'safe' vote at the moment...my suspicions are not as strong towards you or VP as they were towards RC. So I am not going to rush.

Sorry for the long retort but I did not think Vi's comments were very valid and I thought each point deserved a comment.

Going back to my read. Right now I would consider Sotty the player least likely to get my vote leaving both Vi and VP in contention. With Vi currently in the lead to receive it.

[havingfitz]

OK..finished ISO on VP. He bussed HR pretty hard from the beginning. The main thing that concerned me were comments VP made on more than one occassion concerning the fact that no scum would bus their partner the entire game in a two scum set up. Which makes me of course think he is scum bussing his partner the entire game.

Ok...so you're not going to be useful. Just vote who I tell you to when I let you know who the scum is. Unless, of course, the NK was randomized, in which case we'll speedlynch you and insta-win.

Guess I'm going to have to iso Sotty and Vi. sigh. I don't see why I should have to do heavy lifting in a setup with two cops and a doc.

Vi and Sotty, which of you is town so I don't have to do stuff?

Looking back at my post you quote above (and following my conversations with Vi) I see I may have been a bit misleading in it. The last line of my comment should have been followed by an additional line something like, "However, I do not get a very strong scum vibe from VP so he would not be higher on my scum list than Vi." The way I left it seemed to indicate I thought you were scum (and therefore the last scum) when I was simply leaving open the possibility that you were.

And thanks for offering to help me place my vote.

[havingfitz]

Sorry I did not get a chance to post in here again yesterday.

Here are my catching up comments....some in bold within quotes and some directly following quotes:

My read on you left me feeling you could be scum. I said I was going to take another look at you. If/when I vote for you I will provide reasons

Or you can provide them now. So far you've said I'm your top suspect (multiple times, multiple ways), but not why.

Gut. And while I have been leaning towards you the most...it is by no means a clear margin as I am still undecided between you and VP.

As for not laying down a 'safe' vote at the moment...my suspicions are not as strong towards you or VP as they were towards RC.

Why not?

RC's limited amount of play in the game was very anti-town IMO. In hindsight I should have been more patient than I was with my vote, but he had provided absolutely no content of any value. Additionally...as having just entered the game...I put too much value in the opinion of the others who suspected him.

The last sentence was made jokingly and I do not see myself voting for Sotty as I think she is town

(or at least the least scummy of the three of you)

You did it again.

Not sure what you are acusing me of doing again. if you have a problem with the way I am voicing my suspect rankings I don't know what to tell you. It's not difficult. I get the least scum vibe from Sotty (though I obviously can not write her off as confirmed town) and you and VP give me a stronger scum vibe. Though I am having a very hard time deciding which of you I feel is scummier.

Without our input - which I'm grateful for your cooperation on, btw

"your" here refers to VP/Sotty, sorry
A 30-page game isn't that long, especially when most of it is whining.

To each his own...at his own pace

**********************************************************************

fitz, is your NK randomized if you don't submit it?

Huh? VT don't have any ni......waaaaait a minute....

Are you trying to insinuate that I hav.....that I'm ma...you're trying to trick me! Aren't you!

Good one. But I'm VT.

I realize there stands a possibility that I was bussing HR, but in a setup like this I think that is beyond idiotic.

And I think it is not unreasonable for wiley scum to use this a gambit to color themself townie.

Therefore, as what I would consider as close to a confirmed town as possible at this point, I'm more interested in hearing arguments being put forth by you guys before we get into the real meat and potatoes and I start stamping my feet like a child.

So because you bussed your partner so heavily from the start...that confirms you as town? That's great...I'll have to use that sometime. You obviously think that your bussing is more confirmation of you being town that BC's absence during N3 actions. That works out well for you.

On an unrelated note, there is a possibility for a no lynch today. Thoughts from everyone?

I don't think this would get us anywhere as all it would most likely accomplish is all four of us trying to figure out who to lynch on D5.

**********************************************************************

OK...enough for the responses. I have re-read the game again and I still can not decide who I think is scummier...VP or Vi.

I think Vi has done more scumhunting...asked more questions and tried to give weight to her (I assume Vi is a her at least) actions. In a VC analysis I did her voting habits were very similar to VPs...and in fact, on more than one occassion they seemed to follow each other quite closely in making the same votes. Iirc correctly...almost always the VP vote followed by Vi's. I really thought Vi's case in her lone wall post against me was a lot of reaching (a HR proxy NK action????????) with the goal of bring my role back under consideration despite the whole BC was gone so he must be town scenario...which funny enough she proposed.

VP bussed HR from very early on..so he has to be town (or not)...though I did not see much reasoning provided for his intial HR. Need to go back again and see how that voting played out. I did not see VP providing as much content with his votes as Vi did.

Both Vi and VP were very active moving their votes around and they really have played a very close game to each other. Vi..it should be noted also had HR in her radar for much of the game as well. Though not to the extent VP did...so that must make her slightly less townish (or not).

I really don't know who between VP and Vi I want to place my vote on. I'm going to look over the game some more and will try to decide on which direction I want to go.

Though I would would not expect any of the remaining three of you to make it too easy to spot scum...and you aren't (for me at least).

[havingfitz]

Sorry about the mas

tin

sive post.

I thought your post was very well written. I don't have time atm but I want to read it again and mull it over a bit after which I will place a vote.

What is keeping you from placing a vote?

[havingfitz]

What is keeping you from placing a vote?

I want to double check my read on Sotty to be certain, which may involve rereading the game from after she replaced in. I will get it done at some point today (have a bit of work to finish up this morning) and then I'll probably be voting one way or the other.

Yeah..by no means have I ruled her out....we're just to the point where there is only one vote left and she is not the highest on my list of suspicions. She certainly played well when she replaced in a scum in my last game with...have a look:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... c&&start=0

[havingfitz]

If you are ready to vote...why proclaim it but not do it? Sotty seems to have made her case and committed to it. If Vi does get to L-1...I would not vote her unless I was comfortable with voting her (though I'm not sure I will be comfortable regardless of where my vote goes). I will wait to hear what she has to say re: posts since she's been gone. I feel like I have mini town and scum VP Baltar's on my shoulders and they are both telling me to vote Vi. For different reasons.

[havingfitz]

I'll come back to the VP Baltar wall when I get to it, with zero promise of a wallpost.

I'll wait to hear what you have to say.

In this format with 4 people in LYLO...what happens if we end the day 2-2? Hold out hope that scum do a NK and see which two agree tomorrow or have a no-kill by scum and be back at square one?

[havingfitz]

I have said since the start of the day that I don't think it is a really hard choice, but there is still a choice to make.

I wish I felt the same way about it not being a hard choice.

I don't know about you but I am a pessimist at heart and lylo always frays my nerves. I question everything before making my leap. I have read and re-read the game to feel confident enough to place my vote.

My sentiments exactly.

The only thing I know for sure is...my read on Sotty as scum is weak, as it appears it everyone else's read on Sotty is. So Sotty isn't going to get lynched today. That leaves VP and Vi. If both of them are town...we've lost. If I place my vote on Vi, game over. But I'm not ready to do that yet. So just out of curiosity & to hopefully confirm Sotty (for what it's worth) while I decide if I would really rather vote Vi:

Vote: VP

[havingfitz]

fitz, I wouldn't recommend making those same moves upon replacing in again

Which moves? The VP vote? Just sorry I didn't do it sooner and save you a few long posts.

That's twice Sotty...I will now vote for you everytime we play in the future.

Good job.

[havingfitz]

fitz, I wouldn't recommend making those same moves upon replacing in again

Which moves? The VP vote? Just sorry I didn't do it sooner and save you a few long posts.

The VP vote was a sensible move since nobody expected the Sottish Inquisition.

I was more referring to your impulsive Rosso Carne vote and your (apparently) baseless stances at the beginning of D5.

Hindsight is nice. I'm not sure if Rosso could have prevented me from voting him with more time. He hadn't done anything. If that's his meta, oiy.

As for all the other baseless stances...looks like I wasn't alone. The fact neither you or VP were scum didn't make it any easier trying to decide which of you were scum

Enjoyed playing with you all.