Open 212--Hard Boiled Mafia (Game Over)

[chauchaudotcom]

Vote: RayFrost

for always being scum.

[chauchaudotcom]

You are just bitter that I am awesome as scum and you can't catch me. Wink

It's hard to catch scum from the grave. But I've already devised a plan for the future. Initiate zombie mode.

[chauchaudotcom]

Any kind of strict policy lynch is just too rigid to be realistically applied Most things depend on circumstance and scenarios. But I rarely see people adopt policy lynches anyway.

Active lurking is generally scummy. Just lurking in general, however, is a null tell but not at all helpful to town. Overall, I eat lurkers for breakfast.

I'd say I'm pretty active. I usually post multiple times a day throughout the week but not as much on the weekends.

[chauchaudotcom]

so far, this is the only vote explanation I feel is even remotely good.

I thought it was called

random

voting for a reason.

In any case, I voted you because I needed an RVS vote. That and I want revenge for the last few games.

active lurking isn't that bad, because what if you don't have anything to say? So then what?

If you were actively scum hunting, why wouldn't you have anything to say?

[chauchaudotcom]

Personally, I don't find a case solely built off meta useful. There's too many variables to consider.

Ythan - What was the purpose in pointing out Ray's contradiction? Why is it relevant and do you genuinely think it's scum tell?

This:

I don't see how RayFrost's supposed contradiction is a scum tell, btw. It doesn't accomplish anything for scum.

MMM - How likely is scum to push a quicklynch this early, from reasons in rvs?

[chauchaudotcom]

Ythan - Even if there is a chance he's lying in one of the games, I still fail to see how this is a scum tell.

I don't like how the Mysterious Mystery Man wagon is growing so quickly. Already three votes, and Evilsnail outing suspicions towards Mysterious Mystery Man. I'd say there's a good chance on of those last three is scum (Semioldguy's vote was a random vote).

How exactly is the bandwagon growing quickly? If semioldguy's vote was random there is only Frost and Bio on MMM. And other then snail (who didn't even vote MMM mind you) I don't see anyone else jumping the gun.

And I'm obv town.

What? How are you obv town?

It is distracting because you are drawing attention onto yourself.

And that's scummy...how? I'm a bit confused. Don't scum want to stay out of the limelight? So how is them being distracting scummy?

I'm not saying that chatting is good or bad, but it's what everyone seems to be doing. The fact that BH and RF are not is suspicious.

Why is the desire to move out of RVS into the actual game scummy? Isn't the point of scum hunting to pressure your suspects for reactions?

[chauchaudotcom]

Snail - Earlier you voiced that you felt you were agreeing w/ frost and bio about MMM being scum. Yet you never voted him and now you're pursuing Ythan. Are your suspicions for MMM still there? Why didn't you pursue them further w/ a vote or questioning?

Hmm... I call sentences like these a strong scumtell. And I'm willing to vote for it.

How in the world is this a strong scum tell?

It doesn't matter if Semioldguy's vote was random. Fact is he was on the wagon. I think 3½ votes are enough to say that a wagon is growing rapidly.

So if you were so suspicious of the wagon why are you voting someone not on the wagon?

Unvote
Vote: Mindgamer

Omfg people. REASONS dammit, REASONS!

[chauchaudotcom]

I can definitely get scum vibes from both mindgamer and MMM, and I might want to change my vote, but for now I'm just gonna..

More reasoning please. Why MMM over gamer? What was suspicious about them?

ksun: lurking it up, and even defended active lurking like he knew he would be doing it this game. Neutral read, I guess.

btw, where is ksun?

Also, I didn't see RVS as over, my vote was not to be taken that seriously at first. I voted because you were the only lead I had. Interesting how your vote is acceptable but mine isn't.

Given we are now SEVEN pages in. Is Bio & Frost still your only leads?

It wasn't RVS

, it was a case of either voting you or voting RayFrost.

Also,

I didn't see RVS as over

, my vote was not to be taken that seriously at first.

[chauchaudotcom]

Statements like 'I know I'm good, but don't expect me to catch all the scum so soon!' are usually made by scum, not town.

Seeing how this was said in a joking manner, I still don't see how it is more attributed to scum then town. It seems more like a player personality then anything. Do you have examples of when this was used and the player flipped scum?

Unvote; Vote: mindgamer

Your statement about the MMM wagon was a bold statement. And though you continually insist it was a fast growing, suspicious wagon, you backed off your vote and switched to Ythan rather easily. For, from my perspective, crappy reasons. Furthermore, I have yet to see you press anyone on the actual MMM wagon about their activity on it. If you're so suspicious of the fast growing wagon, why have you not been questioning bio, frost and semi (perhaps even snail)? You did vote Frost but never went into reasoning though he requested you to do so multiple times.

Deer - What made Frost a 'scummy' read as opposed to all the slightly scummy reads you had on others?

btw, obviously ksun wasn't lurking since I replaced him so any offense on that is null lol

Rather quick to defend yourself.

[chauchaudotcom]

chau: With the game at a standstill was their a reason to really critisize ray for questioning someone's RVS vote?

Questioning someone's RVS vote is fine. But I felt that him pointing out that no one had a good reason for their random vote was pointless. It's called random for a reason. I'm not sure what you're getting at. Does everything we do have to have an ulterior motive? I merely said what I thought of his comment at the time. Nothing more.

McG - Now that you've caught up properly, who is your top suspect?

That's not really what I meant. You just seem to be dissecting a whole bunch of quotes and

going off tangent with your answers.

Can you give me Iso examples of this claim?

MMM - Again, "Given we are now SEVEN pages in. Is Bio & Frost still your

only

leads?"

[chauchaudotcom]

What's the big deal about the MMM wagon? It's remarkable, but not THAT important. There's more interesting stuf to look at, like Ythan's statement.

The RayFrost vote was a reaction vote, it had nothing to do with the MMM wagon.

The big deal is that you made a bold statement about the MMM wagon yet your actions were inconsistent with the statement. Even more so now your saying your vote for Frost wasn't even because of the MMM wagon, which makes me wonder why you even bothered to point out that someone on the MMM wagon was scum in the first place if you weren't even going to pursue them as suspects.

And I still disagree about Ythan's statement being scummy.

208

sorry I am busy right now with rl stuff I just wanted to throw out some opinion.

What about 208 makes him scummy?

I know this post is gonna lead me to get lynched, but it'll still take 10 days for 3 more people to change their votes.

Unvote.

Backing off rather easily huh? I understand your impatience but what was the point of unvoting someone you're suspicious of?

[chauchaudotcom]

Voice =/= vote. And I still don't see what the big deal is. Why would I spend a lot of effort on every comment I make? Heck, what can I even do? All the voters on the Mysterious Mystery Man wagon have given a simple but clear reason. All I can do is ask them a few small questions and deliver some FoS's. Yay. Or I could spend my efforts on a scummy person like Ythan/NickF227. Yeah, that sounds much better.

That's precisely my point. Your VOICE said something pretty damn bold, (there is at least one scum on this wagon) but your VOTE doesn't follow or correlate with that claim. It just seemed like you were trying to stir something up without committing to it.

As for my town reads, in this case, town is usually just a lack of scumminess, as I said earlier.

Then what distinguishes your town and null reads?

There's an understated nervousness to his posts that I don't like.

Examples?

The more someone acts like they are pro-town the more likely it is they are scum. Not people who are REALLY playing pro-town. I just know these things. Call it gut if you will.

How often is your gut right?
How often is your gut wrong?

The answer? 50% for both. Gut is unhelpful.

MMM - How experienced would you say you are with mafia?

[chauchaudotcom]

Well, Ythan's vote for you wasn't great. I still don't see the scum tell. Then his semioldguy vote was really OMGUSy and that felt off.

In terms of the OMGUS. Why Ythan/Nick and not MMM then?

I'm not very experienced. A few newbie games a vengeful 5P, and some small games I played/hosted in RL.

Still, a few newbie games + a vengeful is a decent amount. So how familiar are you with OMGUS?

Also, how are those quotes of Ray showing that he is nervous? I don't see it.

[chauchaudotcom]

MMM, you missed my questions:

Still, a few newbie games + a vengeful is a decent amount. So how familiar are you with OMGUS?

Also, how are those quotes of Ray showing that he is nervous? I don't see it.

Mindgamer's my top for reasons stated before.

But lMMM is closing that gap pretty quickly. Originally I thought MMM was just frustrated newbie town. But he's played in around 5 games or so and his constant use of not just OMGUS but very weakly supported cases concerns me (particularly his latest exchanges with Frost).

[chauchaudotcom]

Take 1

Vote: Bio Hazard for trying to build a case on me in RVS. Not the best evidence in the world, but sounds good for now.

Take 2

FoS: farside22

I find it interesting how you decide that I'm scum with Nick solely because I didn't say I found anything scummy about his posts when I voted for him.

Both conveniently happened after each person attacked/pressured you.

So how does 'slurred words' = nervousness? Mind you, only one of the posts you quoted has slurred words.

So you're claiming that based off meta, him acting out = scum right? Based off my experience w/ frost though, he plays a lot more serious as scum. So his so called 'acting out' would actually be a town tell. Furthermore, you still haven't explained exactly what in his posts indicate this so called nervousness he's supposedly hiding. Your case on Frost is weak and seems like scum trying to make a bogus case.

Unvote; Vote: MMM

[chauchaudotcom]

a) She thinks I've used OMGUS.

Correction, you DID omgus. And I let it go the first time but letting multiple infractions slip by is foolish. Secondly, the important part of my case is the fact that your voting and suspicion reasonings are weak weak weak.

Your case on Bio? End RVS early. Fine. But you found him scummy because...why? "for trying to build a case on me in RVS" aka omgus. Then you go on to say.. "It is scummy because it is distracting to me." Now distraction = scummy? =/?

Next, you may not have voted Frost BUT you have explicitly made it clear that you think Frost is scummy/suspicious. And your suspicions on Frost are poorly grounded. "he seems to be acting out even more than usual. There's an understated nervousness to his posts that I don't like."

Then when asked about it you say..."Yeah, um, this is the kind of thing I'm talking about. The whole splitting your statements" <- that is scum tell..how? And I never accused you of

voting

frost solely based off meta. But you have continually said Frost is scummy because of your meta nervous read, no? And I will continue to say that the case is bogus. If you're going to accuse someone based off meta you need to know their play as town, scum, and PR else your meta read is as useful as a gut read. And in general, I find that cases solely built of meta are poor anyway.

Finally, your fos on farside was pure omgus.

He didnt' say when he voted for you it wasn't serious. In fact he claimed he found both you and Mind scummy without reason.
In fact I just read Nick in isolation and no where did he allude to not being serious.

I'm calling Nick/MMM scum team right now. So far very weak reason's from MMM with no basis in fact for find Nick not bad.

FoS: farside22

I find it interesting how you decide that I'm scum with Nick solely because I didn't say I found anything scummy about his posts when I voted for him.

You're accusing people of being scummy because you don't understand their logic. Just because you don't understand their logic =/= they are scum. IF you pursue their logic, break it down and prove them wrong. Then deduce that they had scum motives for having such logic then you can conclude that they are probably scum. However, you're just jumping on your reactive emotions and going, "omg, they're accusing me with something I don't understand/agree with hence you must be scum!!" which is the pure definition of omgus.

Overall, your cases are weak and seemed forced.

However, I heartily disapprove of mcgriddle and nick's votes.

Reasons?

Because, really, me getting lynched because I want things to move a bit faster is idiotic. No one seems to be voting for mindgamer anymore, and I think both are worthy candidates.

Do you have any thoughts on players other then MMM and mindgamer? And why do you pick MMM when:

Bio Hazard, evilsnail, mindgamer, Mysterious Mystery Man, semioldguy

are ALL voting you?

[chauchaudotcom]

How come you're not on his case?

The difference being Frost did it way early in the game (where it's generally expected) while you did yours later on in the game when there is other, more legitimate, things to be pushing for.

But in any case, your last post actually rings pretty genuine to me.

Unvote

Can people voting nick explain to me exactly what the case against him is?

I'm a little worried because deadline is tomorrow and half the players are missing. =/ I do not want a no lynch.

[chauchaudotcom]

chauchaudotcom: What makes you feel MMM post is genuine?

He was a lot more clear about the real reasoning's behind his vote. Plus the main reason I was all over him was because of his headbutting with Frost. But this statement:

It's fine if you don't agree, but you've made it out as if I've built a huge case on him. I haven't, if RayFrost hadn't questioned me about it, it wouldn't have been a big deal.

Actually made me rethink things a bit. Overall, I feel like I may have gotten caught up too much in the little details and tunneled on MMM a bit. His play today has been poor but now I'm thinking he may really just be frustrated newb town (which was the initial read I had on him earlier d1).

Farside - All of your points against MMM seem to rely on whether or not Nick flips scum. So wouldn't Nick be a much better vote? Particularly given how scummy you seem to find Nick and Ythan?

[chauchaudotcom]

Honestly, extensions at this point is just going to hurt the game. This day has already dragged on really long and any longer isn't going to help much. I'd really like a flip at this point.

[chauchaudotcom]

I have to go to class now and seeing how deadline is in fifteen I doubt anything is going to miraculously change in the next fifteen minutes. So:

Vote: Nick

[chauchaudotcom]

Gah. Sorry guys. I didn't know the game was open again. Will catch up today.

[chauchaudotcom]

By the way, is it too WIFOM-y to look at BH's suspicions of MMM as any sort of tell?

Care to elaborate?

hypocritical coming from her since her vote was still on Ray which was an RVS vote and she hasn't stated any views on who was scum yet.

That's just how I play. In any case, if you note at that time I was in the process of pursuing my suspects. The post right before I was questioning Mindgamer on the actions that I felt were suspicious and in the next post I voted him. If that's not making my view on who was scum clear, I'm not sure what is. Plus, by simply reading my questions for people and how I follow them up, it's pretty easy to figure out who I am suspicious of and why.

Scummies~

Mindgamer/fitz - Mindgamer continues to be my #1 suspect.

Your statement about the MMM wagon was a bold statement. And though you continually insist it was a fast growing, suspicious wagon, you backed off your vote and switched to Ythan rather easily. For, from my perspective, crappy reasons. Furthermore, I have yet to see you press anyone on the actual MMM wagon about their activity on it. If you're so suspicious of the fast growing wagon, why have you not been questioning bio, frost and semi (perhaps even snail)? You did vote Frost but never went into reasoning though he requested you to do so multiple times.

Even more so now your saying your vote for Frost wasn't even because of the MMM wagon, which makes me wonder why you even bothered to point out that someone on the MMM wagon was scum in the first place if you weren't even going to pursue them as suspects.

That's precisely my point. Your VOICE said something pretty damn bold, (there is at least one scum on this wagon) but your VOTE doesn't follow or correlate with that claim. It just seemed like you were trying to stir something up without committing to it.

Next in line would be..

Evilsnail and Ortolan. Both have contributed nothing and lurked through d1. Evilsnail is scummier simply because he was actually present and his posts were and have been nothing but fluff.

As for my town reads:
NO.

That being said I'm going to go do some voting analysis now.

[chauchaudotcom]

I forgot to:

Vote: Havingfitz (Mindgamer)

[chauchaudotcom]

Bah. Vote analysis yielded me nothing.

Semi - Who are your top right now?

[chauchaudotcom]

Mysterious Mystery Man is slightly suspicious to me, but not for many of the reasons others have put forward as mentioned, and I am looking at you as my third suspect mostly for reasons brought up against you.

What are these 'other reasons' for suspecting MMM?

And what points brought up against me? The hypocrite one?

Sure, nothing wrong with pressuring a player you find scummy. But arbitrarily pressuring players? That looks scummy, even if it isn't. And I asked Bio Hazard if he really thought I was scum, and he said yes.

That's when I got worried.

This wasn't pressuring. Eventually, he stopped tunneling, and I stopped saying he was tunneling.

=o....scumclaim?

Saying that he thinks you are actually scum is, in fact, a form of pressuring you. Why would you be worried if you aren't scum?

Mod: may we prod Deer please?

[chauchaudotcom]

I don't know what you mean by "other reasons" since I never mentioned "other reasons." I don't like many of the existing cases/reasons already against him, some of which I have specifically mentioned. One of the points I do see as potentially scummy I have also said in a previous post. Could you elaborate on what you are asking?

I was referring to this:

"Mysterious Mystery Man is slightly suspicious to me,

but not for many of the reasons others have put forward as mentioned

"

I thought it meant you had other reasons. But I realize I misinterpreted your post so ignore this question.

Why did you wait until now to comment on MMM's 105 post when farside made this accusation quite some time ago in d1?

Not the hypocrite point. The fact that you have been asking questions and not following it up with much pointed out by farside22 and hitogoroshi. Looks like possible feigned scum-hunting/participation to me.

Which questions have I not followed up on? I question things that are suspicious or off to me (or to get individuals to talk more so I can get a read on them). If it satisfies me, I move on. If it doesn't, I continue questioning and follow with a vote if necessary, or save it in my notes and keep my eye on that person. I'm curious as to why I am more suspect versus farside whos posts I've found to be full

Also, reading back:

Farside - What made you think orto is leaning scum but not Deer?

[chauchaudotcom]

Oops cut off.

" I'm curious as to why I am more suspect versus farside whos posts I've found to be full"

of a lot of stuff I find rather distracting/unecessary. She comments on everyone but doesn't follow up much on them either and always winds up going back to tunneling on MMM.

[chauchaudotcom]

I don't see anything close to what Ort did that deer has done. If you have please show examples.

Well in my opinion, both of contributed virtually nothing of use in my view. So a primary concern of mine was how you came to the conclusion that Ort is leaning scum but not Deer seeing how you're in agreement that they are both contributing little and lurking.

I read their observation and agreed with it when looking back through the game. Many of your posts contain questions but many times they don't lead anywhere or I don't see the purpose in asking some of the questions you do. They seems to be for the purpose of simply asking a question rather than to analyze an answer.

You missed my initial question. Out pf the questions I have asked, which ones give you this impression? Please show what posts or iso #'s these are.

I don't completely agree with your assessment of farside22. A lot is unnecessary, but that comes with tunneling which isn't specifically scummy, and I don't see her posts as being distracting. Posting things about everyone but not following up is not the same as asking questions and not following up. I don't see you two as doing that in the same way.

Ah...you misunderstood me. To clarify, I never regarded farside as scummy. I merely pointed out that her posts have a lot of unnecessary stuff in it which distracts me from getting a good read on her because reading through her posts become an exceedingly tedious task. Which may also serves for being a scum shield.

You made the distinction between the two but why is one more of a scum tell then the other? They indicate nothing in terms of alignment, merely two different styles of play.

What are your thoughts about Confucius who is also tunneling on Mysterious Mystery Man and whose posts appear about as equally unnecessary to me as hers?

It's not a scumtell. It's not good play either though. However, Orto posted nothing but fluff so that's why Conf's is still in my top three right now. But Conf is, overall, giving me a better vibe then Orto did. My eye, of course, is still on him but I actually agree with most of his points on MMM's play. Just not his conclusion that MMM is scum.

Being that as it may, I agree that the same MMM argument has been rehashed one too many times. But also, taking into account the fact that we're still waiting on players/replacements, I can't really blame him for concentrating on the only suspect he has that's actually available for questioning. You can't really pursue people who aren't here.

FoS: semioldguy.

I agree, though, probably for different reasons. But, I wouldn't know because you seem to have forgotten them.

[chauchaudotcom]

I can't argue much against me hammering. I didn't believe MMM was scum and a mindgamer wagon wasn't happening so Nick was the next best bet. No lynch = only scum controlled information from the NK. Which is something I avoid at all costs.

Fitz - What're your thoughts on semi?

[chauchaudotcom]

I didn't miss your question, it just doesn't have the specific answer you are looking for. I'll start with ISO 4 through 7. You ask a string of questions while not really adding any content or interpretation of the answers you receive.

Those posts were towards the beginning of the game so a lot of them were questions to either spark more conversation so I could get better reads. My questioning of Ythan and MMM were because they were both pushing false cases on people which is ultimately distracting town. As for questioning of gamer, it did lead to something. I vote him.

Then you misunderstand me. It isn't your style of play that I primarily find suspect. It isn't what you are posting that I mostly find suspicious, it's what you aren't posting. A playstyle of asking questions is fine, but are you going to tell me that your playstyle is asking questions and not looking at the answers you get?

Simply because I don't share my thoughts does not mean I have no thoughts about them. I am looking at the answers I get but not all answers are worth pursuing.

Iso4
Ythan - Ythan had just replaced in and accused Ray because of a contradiction he said in the other game. I failed to see how this contradiction meant he was scum so I was questioning Ythan on whether he was really pushing this as a meta case on him and why.

MMM - MMM was going off about the wagon and pushing a case for it. I was using questioning to point out how unlikely a quicklynch would occur during rvs.

Iso5
Ythan - After he explained why it cleared up for me Ythan's case on Frost. I disagreed with it but I didn't see Ythan scummy for it. It was a null and something I marked in my notes but I had nothing more to say for that time being.

Mindgamer - He was commenting on the bandwagon but his conclusion seemed faked so I questioned him about it.

MMM - Again, using questioning to point out that MMM is accusing people of things that aren't necessarily scummy.

Iso6
Snail - Trying to get snail to talk more and also explain his stance consistency. Overall, his answer was satisfactory so I didn't pursue further.

Mindgamer - Now he's analyzing the wagon so far yet his vote is inconsistent. It's suspicious so I pursue further and further and eventually voted him.

Iso7
Nick - Votes with little explanation of why he chooses one over the other. This was a standard question. I'll admit I should've followed up on this more but at the time I was more preoccupied with Mindgamer.

When I look for scum, I don't look for actions. I look for plausible motivations. I am interested in the "why" behind the actions. Why do you ask the questions that you ask or what are you looking for in asking them? My perception is that a town player asks questions to gain information which she can analyze. That is the motivation: to ask questions to gain reads on players. I look at your questions and don't always see that as the most likely motivation behind asking the question.

I do ask questions to gain information. Whether the answer gives me anything I can analyze, however, is completely out of my hands. If there is something to pursue, I pursue it. If not, I drop it.

@chau....how have you been? Smile Semi did not jump out at me in my first quick read. If/when I get a chance to look at him closer I will provide my thoughts. What are your on him?

Hey fitz! Fantastic, you? Right now I'm unsure. I had a town read on him d1 but his current case against me doesn't seem genuine. It just seems like he's jumping on the wagon because farside pointed it out earlier, too convenient.

Fitz - Thoughts on anyone/thing else so far?

Why have you not brought this up earlier?

Because no one questioned me about it? Or are you talking about my view of your posts? I didn't bring that up because despite my opinion, I didn't find your posts scummy. I chalked it up to difference in play style.

[chauchaudotcom]

How did you determine them each to be false cases?

Not false cases per say as I'm unsure of their alignment, but really weak ones.

MMM was voting because "They're trying to pressure me or they want a quicklynch. Either way, they're drawing most of my attention, and that's not a good thing."

It takes seven people to lynch someone d1. Meaning that in order for a scum motivated quick lynch to successfully occur during RVS, half of town would have to be really really stupid. Given that I like to have faith in mankind, I conclude that an rvs quicklynch is simply not probable (or a smart move for scum). MMM was trying to push this as a legit case against Bio when it's far from it.

Ythan was voting because "Somewhere between lynch all liars and there's a roughly 50% chance this is the thread he's lying in."

Lying =/= scum tell. Lying may hurt your credibility but there are plenty of times where I have seen town lie. Whether or not they should is a completely different question but in general, cases

solely

built of policy lynches or meta are considered very weak in my eyes.

This is the sort of reasoning for a question that I dislike. It looks like asking a question for the sake of asking a question. A statement would have done much better for the purpose you were asking the question.

Simply because you dislike it does not make it a scum tell. I don't know how to better explain it then say it is merely a difference in play style, really. I've learned that sometimes merely pointing things out doesn't always work. If you 'lead' the person into it with questions, they are more likely to follow your train of thought. Furthermore, by asking questions in this manner you are not only able to make your point but you can observe the person's reactions in the process and come to understand their train of thinking. Pointing things out is easy but will give a null for the most part whereas asking questions always has the potential of giving more information. It all boils down to preference. They both lead to the same result through different methods.

My suspicions on chau are mostly sue to the fact she got off your wagon when she did...after two fairly quick votes on you had brought you up to L-2...and when you were an equally strong candidate for the D1 lynch. Then to hammer someone she had voiced little or no suspicions for just seemed too convenient....especially when pulling out the ‘avoid a no-lynch’ reason./quote]

To be fair, I initially had a town read on MMM. I then doubted myself after his umpteenth omgus but then wound up back at my initial town read. So it was either lynch someone I didn't think was scum or lynch Nick and avoid a no lynch.

In any case, to be clear, does that mean that you suspect an MMM/Chau scum pair? Because following your reasoning, that's the impression I'm getting but prior to you were saying that your cases are independent from the other correct?

Also, can you expand a bit on why MMM's suspicions on mindgamer before made him suspicious to you?

Sigh...this game is frustrating to play when we have so many players missing.

[chauchaudotcom]

So what in my last post pushed you to vote seeing how you've held out for so long?

[chauchaudotcom]

I would vote for evilsnail and havingfitz.

Earlier you had fitz IGMYOU just like you have MMM now. What changed fitz to scummier then MMM?

I gotta say, havingfitz's 428 makes it look like he's buddies with evilsnail. As for the third scum, I think it's got to be either CC.com or semioldguy, but for the life of me I can't be sure which one.

Let's scratch the fact that the first assumption seems unlikely to me but how in the world did you arrive at the conclusion that the third scum would be me or semi?

Unvote, vote: evilsnail

I can't see getting a majority for anyone else in time.

Why would you bandwagon someone who isn't even here to defend themself? Seeing how we have a week isn't it far more useful to pursue subjects that are actually here and can address your points? Especially given that your reasoning isn't even that evil is the most scummy but just that there are no wagons forming against anyone else.

Wt...you didn't just bandwagon but you L-1'd him with a weeks time to spare and a new replacement?! =/

Leading someone with questions is a way to make them come out looking bad, especially if you know where the answer to your question is leading. You can just as well get explanations about their throught process by commenting on something or simply asking "what was your thought process here?" rather than leading them.

How exactly would leading questions make someone look bad? The point of them is to help people understand your train of thinking so that they can better understand where you are trying to get at. You risk the chance of making someone look bad whenever you point out their mistakes, regardless of how you do it. But the point being that it is a persuasive technique. But you need to be persuasive as scum AND as town. And you seem to completely miss the fact that I was pretty much asking "what was your thought process here?" to people while pointing out that their case was poorly grounded.

---

Pittbunny, you're on the wagon for Snail right now (because of Deer). Are you content with where your vote is right now?

[chauchaudotcom]

and

Unvote: Havingfitz

. I gotta go back to the drawing board and do a re-read. I've been severely disconnected from this game.

[chauchaudotcom]

1.) chauchaudotcom, your point against Mysterious Mystery Man of voting for evilsnail when the deadline has been extended is invalid. Mysterious Mystery Man voted for evilsnail when he was under the impression that deadline was going to be in about two days. The deadline was not extended until after that post.

That makes much more sense. I actually added the second sentence after I had read through all the posts so my thoughts got a bit jumbled.

I will trust Deer's reasoning until requested to do otherwise or my thoughts sufficiently override his. That being said, what are your thoughts on Deer's inactivity which lead to me coming in?

So your okay with a snail lynch purely because deer was okay with it? Or do you actually think snail is scum and are okay with their lynch? Please clarify.

I have a middle leaning town read on Deer mainly based on my meta of him from his past scum game. As for him flaking, this would be the second game in which he's done this and though it's irritating I can't attribute it to scum play so my stance on him is still leaning town. As you post more we'll see if that changes.

I did notice evil had strong suspcions towards you most of the day. Is that why you want to lynch him now that his role appears abondoned?

By this logic shouldn't MMM be pushing for a Conf lynch? Or maybe a Fitz lynch...or farside?

[chauchaudotcom]

Picking up the prod. My apologies but life seems to have caught up to me at the worst of times. Normally I would ask to be replaced but seeing how replacements this game have been detrimental to town I'm going to avoid doing so unless you guys request otherwise. That being said, I will be catching up either tonight if I have time or Tuesday. Sorry for the inconveniences.

[chauchaudotcom]

No counterclaim here.

Based off Deer's post I'm thinking he would have investigated MMM or Mindgamer. And given his switch to snail d2 one of those two is for sure innocent.

Given Pitt's list in ISO 7:
Semi, Snail, Chau, Farside, Hito, MMM, Confucius.

Notice how he left Fitz out. Whether on accident or not, Fitz clearly wasn't on his suspicion list so I'm going to conclude that he's most likely the psyc's investigation. Fitz is going to be off my list for today.

Given that I know my role that leaves me with:

farside22
Mysterious Mystery Man
Pie_is_good

I'm going to have to retract my previous read on MMM as his interactions with semi are the most notable. He starts of d2 with his suspicion on MMM but never really goes for it. Could be a possible attempt at an early bus in case MMM is going down d2 (since he was under heavy suspicion d1).

I'll finish isoing the other two tomorrow morning as it is my bed time now.

[chauchaudotcom]

No counterclaim here.

Based off Deer's post I'm thinking he would have investigated MMM or Mindgamer. And given his switch to snail d2 one of those two is for sure innocent.

Given Pitt's list in ISO 7:
Semi, Snail, Chau, Farside, Hito, MMM, Confucius.

Notice how he left Fitz out. Whether on accident or not, Fitz clearly wasn't on his suspicion list so I'm going to conclude that he's most likely the psyc's investigation. Fitz is going to be off my list for today.

Given that I know my role that leaves me with:

farside22
Mysterious Mystery Man
Pie_is_good

I'm going to have to retract my previous read on MMM as his interactions with semi are the most notable. He starts of d2 with his suspicion on MMM but never really goes for it. Could be a possible attempt at an early bus in case MMM is going down d2 (since he was under heavy suspicion d1).

I'll finish isoing the other two tomorrow morning as it is my bed time now.

[chauchaudotcom]

So most likely, the Psychologist either did not have a useful result (due to not investigating, or investigating either McGriddle or BioHazard), or had a "no potential to kill" result, which is the equivalent of an innocent result.

Hmm...I completely forgot about the fact that he may have investigated one of the deceased. I don't think he investigated Bio, because Bio wasn't on Deer's suspect list, but McG is actually a high possibility. So I need to look back on fitz as well.

I need to review the game, particularly the interactions between chauchaudotcom and semioldguy. I voiced the suspicion earlier that they were scum busing, and it's a more likely possibility now.

Your distancing reference was between me and fitz, not me and semi. Furthermore you went as far as to claim:

I'm currently undecided on CC.com, it will depend on my read of semioldguy. If he looks scummy, CC.com will look better, and vice versa.

So why the sudden change of stance?

---

Catching up

Orto - Nothing. I got nothing.
Hito - Felt that semi was town.

As their posts are little and have little, there's not much to go on. Semi doesn't really mention either much.

Farside - Overall farside's interactions with semi don't strike me as particularly suspicious. The one thing that did catch my attention was during my exchange with semi I brought up farside's lack of follow on her posts as well and semi defended her whilst continuing to insist that I was scum for the same reason. Felt like possible buddying to me.

Gamer - Random voted Semi. Included semi as one of the suspects for the quick wagon despite the fact that semi's vote was random. Possible early distancing.
Fitz - I questioned fitz about his stance on semi but aside from saying that nothing stuck out to him he doesn't comment on semi again. On a side note tho, if MMM flips scum I'd say Fitz is town.

So based off interactions with semi I'd have to rate my suspect list as follows:

1st: MMM, Pie, Fitz and Farside

[chauchaudotcom]

Interesting how both CC.com and farside22 are quick to deny any possibility of distancing.

Way to misrepresent. I was pointing out that no where the day before did you claim that me and semi were bussing each other as you so claimed.

And why in the world would I accept the possibility of distancing if I was not, in fact, distancing?

That being said, care to actually answer the question I asked?

[chauchaudotcom]

MMM, are you ignoring me on purpose? Please answer:

That being said, care to actually answer the question I asked?

11 in, I'm feeling good about MMM town and CC scum. I think MMM is responding very well to pressure. Meanwhile, look at CC's posting patterns. For the first 8 or so pages, she's fairly generic and perhaps even a bit lurky. Then people start mentioning town reads on her. Suddenly, her posting rate jumps, and her posts get phenomenally inoffensive:

Care to point out my sudden 'post rate jump'? I have consistently, since the beginning, posted at least once per day (sometimes once every few days). I'm not quite sure where you got the impression that my activity rose exponentially out of no where.

her case on MMM suddenly gets super generic, and instead of doling out her own commentary she spends her time questioning other people. This, to me, is the sign of a scum who feels they're in a good position and doesn't want to jeopardize it.

I have been consistently questioning people from the very beginning throughout this game. As I have said numerous times before: it is my play style. I am still lost as to why this is a scum tell. Simply because I am pursuing a suspect does not mean I should blindly ignore all my surroundings. I do not favor tunnel play. And contrary to what you claim I did comment on things. Even in cases where I didn't explicitly say stuff, I felt I made my views pretty clear through my questions. What did you feel I didn't comment on and should have?

[chauchaudotcom]

The fact that semioldguy was scum is forcing me to re-evaluate my position.

Then why did you claim that you initial called this so claimed bussing d2, prior to the flips and information reveal?

I see a definite pattern here, SOG started attacking CC.com when farside22 gave him the go ahead, and much of their arguments concerned farside22. There is clear defending and buddying between them.

If anything, it was merely proof that Semi jumped at the easy opportunity of pushing a bogus case on me.

In terms of the apparent 'giving the go', the problem I have with this hypothesis is that you have to remember that scum can talk at night. I'm pretty sure if they were going to buss each other they would have discussed it at night rather then risk others catching them during the day. Assuming, of course, the scum aren't stupid.

@ Pie_is_good: It's clear Confucius finds me very scummy, and he's obviously not going to change his mind. So, I'd say it's a given I'm going to be vigged tonight. Therefore, if I am town, it would make no sense for me to be lynched today. If I am lynched, Confucius still has a chance to hit scum and prolong the game. If havingfitz was scum, he'd try to lynch another townie, and win when I'm killed. I know I'm town, so I know havingfitz is town. As for my earlier analysis, well, we have one confirmed scum, so the logical thing to do is to check their interactions with other players. I see a connection with farside22. She is currently my number one suspect.

Wait. By that logic wouldn't everyone trying to get you lynched today be essentially town?

-Due to Confucius's post just before yours, I don't actually want you lynched.

Reason?

I can see how scum would find him town...but experienced scum would never get that buddy buddy with the top suspect on most of the remaining player’s lists. Right?

Not necessarily. If that actually is actually town experienced scum could use that as a way to build up credibility and stay out of the heat the next day after the suspect flips innocent.

Which.....then makes me realize that a MMM + Pie team is probably unlikely.

So (shamelessly stealing pie's way of outlining) I have...

(MMM, Pie) + (far, fitz)

I haven't done much of the other pairing analysis (only did a semi + other) so I need to back and do that.

----

Also, I might still be able to post but just in case,

V/LA until Saturday

.

[chauchaudotcom]

Shouldn't you logically be voting for farside22, then, if you think havingfitz was PittBunny's Night One investigation target?

No. Because you pointed out that fitz could have received a null read night 1 which, after reading back, is entirely possible. So I didn't want to leave fitz out as a possible suspect. Given the uncertainty of the night kill I have to go with my current most likely which is still MMM.

This implies that far/fitz can't be a scumteam. Why? Or is that just a mistype?

I believe MMM is scum so a far/fitz combo hadn't crossed my mind.

It also implies that MMM and Pie can't be a scum team...which is where I'm leaning. So like Pie said, why?

If you look at the post where I concluded this, it explains the precise reasoning for my conclusion.

you said: "can see how scum would find him town...but experienced scum would never get that buddy buddy with the top suspect on most of the remaining player’s lists. Right?"

I said: "Not necessarily. If that actually is actually town experienced scum could use that as a way to build up credibility and stay out of the heat the next day after the suspect flips innocent.

Which.....then makes me realize that a MMM + Pie team is probably unlikely. "

There's a pattern in chau's iso - with very few exceptions, she only overtly comments on people she suspects. Content directly related to other people is 100% questions. Then she votes Mindgamer and starts commenting on him. Then she starts commenting on MMM and votes him shortly after. Day 2 she spends much more time defending her own actions, but the pattern holds - with the exception of her bandwagon du jour and an exchange with SemiOldGuy day 2, all potentially-aggressive action towards other players is phrased as a question.

Again, as I pointed out to semi like 2039842034 times before when he questioned me about this. It is my

playstyle

so of course it is consistent. Nothing more or less. Of course I comment on those I suspect. Because the point of the questions is to determine whether or not people are more or less likely to be scum. If they seem scummy, I pursue it further. As town your job is to hunt scum.

As for defending my own actions, it was because I was accused of something completely bogus. Which is what Semi did. He jumped on minor points farside and hito made and continually tried to push it as a legit case, which it was not. I'll admit that I did get caught up in defending myself, but that is mainly because I have learned that when you do not defend yourself properly or easily give up it oftentimes leads to scum successfully getting a mis-lynch.

To claim that town should not be concerned with their image at all is naive. Granted, that was not the driving factor to my defense. I was defending because semi kept pushing on a weak point that was poorly justified and I had already explained a multiple of times. If you recall fitz also had a case against me then. However, at least fitz's case was based off something more concrete such as historical precedence (though it was still incorrect). To dispel false cases against you is also the job of a town as you want to prevent possible mislynches.

----

That being said. My motivation for this game at the moment is 0. The only reason I had stuck this through is because I felt bad that jeff had to go find all these replacements for the game. But at the moment I simply do not have the time for this game.

So, I'm going to have to request to be replaced out.

Sorry folks but I thought about this for awhile and at the least my replacement will give you a fresh perspective and actually be of some use to town.

I went ahead and responded to the recent posts because it would be unfair to leave without addressing points against me. Again, my apologies.

[chauchaudotcom]

Shouldn't you logically be voting for farside22, then, if you think havingfitz was PittBunny's Night One investigation target?

No. Because you pointed out that fitz could have received a null read night 1 which, after reading back, is entirely possible. So I didn't want to leave fitz out as a possible suspect. Given the uncertainty of the night kill I have to go with my current most likely which is still MMM.

This implies that far/fitz can't be a scumteam. Why? Or is that just a mistype?

I believe MMM is scum so a far/fitz combo hadn't crossed my mind.

It also implies that MMM and Pie can't be a scum team...which is where I'm leaning. So like Pie said, why?

If you look at the post where I concluded this, it explains the precise reasoning for my conclusion.

you said: "can see how scum would find him town...but experienced scum would never get that buddy buddy with the top suspect on most of the remaining player’s lists. Right?"

I said: "Not necessarily. If that actually is actually town experienced scum could use that as a way to build up credibility and stay out of the heat the next day after the suspect flips innocent.

Which.....then makes me realize that a MMM + Pie team is probably unlikely. "

There's a pattern in chau's iso - with very few exceptions, she only overtly comments on people she suspects. Content directly related to other people is 100% questions. Then she votes Mindgamer and starts commenting on him. Then she starts commenting on MMM and votes him shortly after. Day 2 she spends much more time defending her own actions, but the pattern holds - with the exception of her bandwagon du jour and an exchange with SemiOldGuy day 2, all potentially-aggressive action towards other players is phrased as a question.

Again, as I pointed out to semi like 2039842034 times before when he questioned me about this. It is my

playstyle

so of course it is consistent. Nothing more or less. Of course I comment on those I suspect. Because the point of the questions is to determine whether or not people are more or less likely to be scum. If they seem scummy, I pursue it further. As town your job is to hunt scum.

As for defending my own actions, it was because I was accused of something completely bogus. Which is what Semi did. He jumped on minor points farside and hito made and continually tried to push it as a legit case, which it was not. I'll admit that I did get caught up in defending myself, but that is mainly because I have learned that when you do not defend yourself properly or easily give up it oftentimes leads to scum successfully getting a mis-lynch.

To claim that town should not be concerned with their image at all is naive. Granted, that was not the driving factor to my defense. I was defending because semi kept pushing on a weak point that was poorly justified and I had already explained a multiple of times. If you recall fitz also had a case against me then. However, at least fitz's case was based off something more concrete such as historical precedence (though it was still incorrect). To dispel false cases against you is also the job of a town as you want to prevent possible mislynches.

----

That being said. My motivation for this game at the moment is 0. The only reason I had stuck this through is because I felt bad that jeff had to go find all these replacements for the game. But at the moment I simply do not have the time for this game.

So, I'm going to have to request to be replaced out.

Sorry folks but I thought about this for awhile and at the least my replacement will give you a fresh perspective and actually be of some use to town.

I went ahead and responded to the recent posts because it would be unfair to leave without addressing points against me. Again, my apologies.