Open 212--Hard Boiled Mafia (Game Over)

[farside22]

Vote: ABR

You sir are an very erractic player. What ABR will show up to this game? Quiet/lurky, awesome and aggressive, laid back?

[farside22]

BTW, someone ask Vel to run background checks on the new players in this game.

All I can say is that ksun isn't an alt if that is what your asking and doesn't share an IP with anyone in the game but seems to have 2 very similar names running around this place

[farside22]

This games seems to be stalling with very little going on.
Question time

What is your belief on policy lynching?

Do you think scum or town lurk more and why?

How active would you say you are in a typical mafia game?

1) I think scum use it more then town. There are some games I can see why a policy lynch is neccessary but they are in larger games.

2) I would say actively lurking is a scum trait. If a person is lurking it could be for many reasons and I see both alignments lurker.

3) I'm so active it hurts. Weekends I dont' post as much but during the work week you will see me here lots.

[farside22]

Evilsnail and Ksun482, why did you not give a silly reason for your random vote?

A lot of people didn't give silly reasons.

Why the preemptive defense?

I don't see it as a preemptive defense. To me I read it as MMM saying that more then just Evil and Ksun didn't have a silly reason on the RVS.

[farside22]

I'm voting for ABR because I like to see him talk and get him motivated early. Plus so far I'm pretty good with reading him and the more he talks the better feel I can get from him.

[farside22]

RayFrost, I voted you because I thought a wagon on you, as one of the players in this game I know to be quite skilled, would be a good place to start.

MMM, why not vote RayFrost, who is doing the same thing? Also, I don't see what's scummy about trying to build a case in RVS.

I find ray trying to get something going with his vote. I do wonder why MMM was picked over semioldguy. I don't know why voting someone is a way of thanking a person.
From MMM response it sounds like the 2 have a history as well.

MMM are you avoiding putting pressure on ray for any reason?
Ray are you avoiding putting pressure on semi and if not why not mention semi doing the same thing with his vote?

[farside22]

Are you following me mr. fun sucker? (this is in regards to ythan)

mindgammer where have you been? If you can post at least once a day why haven't you?

[farside22]

I just wanted into an open I swear I didn't know you were here.

I tease. At least I know I should get you to post and comment on things. So far this game is like pulling teeth. So where did you hear that ray was not a good player when it comes to playing scum?
What do you think of Bio misinterp of what MMM said or do you think he is right?

[farside22]

It was in another game..

Duh. What I meant more was like who, did you read the game yourself?

[farside22]

Yeah, I think we're about out of RVS now. As I said, my current suspicions are on Bio Hazard, maybe RayFrost.

OMGUS?

technically I can see more frustration reasoning with Ray. So far he's voting you for it seems reaction

Ythan are you making a point?

[farside22]

I know a player that has fake claimed in 2 games and caused me to have to replace a player in another game. He was lynch town in both ongoing games.
Do you know why I'm bring this up?

Because he's using this claim in the hopes of misleading other games. This is why I make a point of not using info from one game to another.

[farside22]

Mod and typically a site rule

9. Refrain from discussing other games which have not ended, including those outside of this forum. A first breach of this rule will result in the offender receiving a warning; a second offense will result in forced replacement or modkill.

[farside22]

Making a serious vote this quickly will likely cause either one of two things: I am lynched, or you are lynched. Either way, it's not a smart move for town, the exception being of course, if I am scum.

Do you know Bio's alignment somehow?

Mindgamer: Both MMM and rayfrost has the same number of votes why are you commenting just about MMM wagon?

ythan: How do you expect a player to address something that you find scummy do to an ongoing game?

Somewhere between lynch all liars and there's a roughly 50% chance this is the thread he's lying in.

I really feel like going to the mod in the other game and letting him know your using an ongoing game to lynch a player in this game. It's just tacky and frankly you leave a bad taste in my mouth as a player right now.

Bio: What is you view on ythan using what he call "meta" to form a case on ray?

MMM said:

It is distracting because you are drawing attention onto yourself.

And????

Bio and evil what is with these votes and not comments?

unvote:
vote: MMM

me think someone knows too much for a day 1

[farside22]

Hi deer welcome to the chaos. A fresh eye and view on the players would be most welcomed.
I will be rereading in the morning to see what stands out to me the most.

[farside22]

@MMM

The Open Queue works fast. NickF227 replaces Ythan, effective immediately. And with that, I bid you all good night.

[farside22]

I took the day off so a few games are not getting my attention today. This is one of those games.
My apologizes.

[farside22]

Bio post 23 How is what MMM stated a preemptive defense?

MMM did you ever respond to Bio's post 23 and his comment?

chau: With the game at a standstill was their a reason to really critisize ray for questioning someone's RVS vote?

Mindgamer: Why did you vote for Rayfrost pst 55?

RayFrost: What case was ever made before this? All I saw was bio saying that MMM's post could be premptive.

Ray: in regards to ythan were you reading at all what he was claiming or where you trying to ignore the fact he was bring up an ongoing game?

Ort is coming of actively lurker who offers nothing so far this game and is someone IGMEO

Ray post 77: I would call this post hypocritical.

ray post 86: better but not sure if I agree. I read it twice and I just don't see it.

ort post 94: noninformative.

evil pst 96 why the unvote? Who do you think is scum and why?

mindgamer Why the big fuss about a few simple votes? Frustration is more likely to come from scum than from town, you know.

I disagree I have seen frustation from both town and scum. It's a null tell.

I do however agree with mind on evil in this same post. (post 103)

MMM post 105: I really still find this post really scummy

Semigold post 111: Although I agree with you that what ythan did was wrong on many levels why is it scummy?

ythan post 114: All sorts of wrong here. I don't like people who I find are purposing missing the post.

ythan post 118: completely OMGUS

ythan post 122: Doesn't seem to care that a player can't defend meta (not meta in my view) of an ongoing game and him pushing something he found from an ongoing game is scummy.

semigold post 123: wins

evil post 131: what happened to the possible vote on MMM?

evil post 138 please ignore post 131 above. Does ythan strike you as scummier then MMM? What reason's would that be if so?

Nick post 154: What in your read gives you scum vibes from mindgamer and MMM?

Deer post 161: I don't get your point on here.

mmmm

Mindgamer randomly critizing the MMM 'wagon' was pretty...weird. He just said "Oh, I think its scummy" and nothing else. I just thought that was really weird.

That's not what I read.

I don't like how the Mysterious Mystery Man wagon is growing so quickly. Already three votes, and Evilsnail outing suspicions towards Mysterious Mystery Man. I'd say there's a good chance on of those last three is scum (Semioldguy's vote was a random vote).

Sure it's vague. I think I pinged on this because of Evil alluding to voting for MMM that made me concern. But I do agree that Mind should expand on why he found the votes on MMM with a good chance of scum on it.

So on review of the game. MMM still gives me big time scum vibes. He seems to be implying that what bio is pushing makes him scummy and I don't see it.
Bio strikes me as aggressive town.
ythan/nick give me big time scum vibes. Most of this from ythan and his OMGUS vote on semigold but nick's post that is a bw vote that offers next to nothing as reasoning is scummy.

[farside22]

@ chauchau - My top suspect is BH.

Why?

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Does everything we do have to have an ulterior motive?

Hi, I'm farside I think everyone is scum till proven otherwise.
On a serious note I'm suspicious of everything I see and question many things I see no reason not to.

[farside22]

Post 171.

Not strong, but it's beginning.

Btw, I am not saying P.1 is always null, just in this case because everything was nothing.

So out of 8 pages you found BH scum based on his push on MMM. You have nothing else that struck you as scummy? No other suspects?

This is some very weak stuff coming from you.

fos: McG

[farside22]

Just an FYI semi I ask questions to things as I read the post. I made a statement about another post where I felt was a good reason. I just write my thoughts and post. I don't take away from something just on my read thru.
In short after reading further yes I saw your reasoning as sound.

Mod: What is our deadline?

McG seems to be floundering around this game and Nick unvote looks more due to pressure. Where is MMM anyways?

[farside22]

MMM: Why would you think nick's post is better then ythan? And what post would you call good that nick made?

[farside22]

You do realize MMM he voted for you for no reason and did a BW vote basically with no reason. When called out he buckled under pressure so I'm trying to understand what in his post was good.

[farside22]

@ farside22: I don't see Nick's vote as scummy. He said it wasn't entirely serious. If he turned it into a big deal, then it would be a scumtell, but he just unvoted casually. I could be way off on this, but I call it like I see it.

He didnt' say when he voted for you it wasn't serious. In fact he claimed he found both you and Mind scummy without reason.
In fact I just read Nick in isolation and no where did he allude to not being serious.

I'm calling Nick/MMM scum team right now. So far very weak reason's from MMM with no basis in fact for find Nick not bad.

[farside22]

I admitted that. I also said, in my original post,

then when compared with Ythan's play, Nick did look bad

. I don't need to prove that Nick's posts were good, I find him scummy.

you did?

Ythan/NickF227: OK, read in ISO, Ythan is obvious scum. He's overly aggressive, makes posts of little content, and his 'reasoning' for voting RayFrost is very, very, bad.

Nick is better

, but still pressures for a lynch and overreacts when called upon.

I was obviously with my questions trying to find what you saw as better.

That was on the original vote. I call that not serious.

in that same post he found you and mindgamer suspicious. I wouldnt' say that was a non-serious vote.

I find it interesting how you decide that I'm scum with Nick solely because I didn't say I found anything scummy about his posts when I voted for him.

I'm looking at the mod vote count and I see you voting for BH. Soooo did you vote for Nick and I and the mod missed it?

[farside22]

That's not what I saw.

MMM: Why would you think nick's post is better then ythan? And what post would you call good that nick made?

How could you miss it?

ISO Ythan. Then ISO Nick. I see Ythan as scummier, which makes precious little difference seeing as how they have the same role pm. Ythan is far more erratic, whereas Nick made an non-serious vote, and I call it non-serious BECAUSE he expressed suspicion of myself and Mindgamer, then said that it was a "placeholder". I'm not close to being lynched yet, so there was no danger in the vote, Nick admitted it was just a placeholder, so he's not overreacting or misjudging the strength of his vote. I really don't see anything scummy about that. I do think his 'hurry up and lynch' post was scummy, as well as the subsequent unvote.

Not seeing how his vote was not serious. He voted for you over Mind with no reason and then pushed for it. How is that not serious again?

@MMM:
Why are you voting for BH?

[farside22]

MMM forgive me the mod had you voting BH still so I mised you voting for Nick.
As for my questions is I see a connection between two players I'm going to question what I see and prod about it.

[farside22]

Alright we have 5 days to get things figured out here. I would like everyone to talk about their top two suspects and why they find the two scummy.

My top 2 hasn't changed since I said the following:

So on review of the game. MMM still gives me big time scum vibes. He seems to be implying that what bio is pushing makes him scummy and I don't see it.
ythan/nick give me big time scum vibes. Most of this from ythan and his OMGUS vote on semigold but nick's post that is a bw vote that offers next to nothing as reasoning is scummy.

Nick's unvote with pressure moves him up and I still feel a bussing move with nik/MMM.
MMM contradiction and reasoning for finding Nick's post not bad is horrible logic.

I would vote for either.

[farside22]

I'm typically busy on the weekends I will have a go at the questions here on Monday.

[farside22]

a) She thinks I've used OMGUS. As I've explained before, my vote on BH was partly to end RVS, and partly because I found his constant bandwagoning to be scummy. Concerning farside22, I don't understand her logic in declaring myself and Nick to be the scum. The fact that I didn't, and still don't find anything scummy in Nick's original vote isn't a scumtell. I voted Nick, right now I think he's got the highest chance to be scum. farside22 found me suspicious because my case on Nick didn't agree with hers. Now that's ridiculous. And, I think it's just a tad scummy. Enough to warrant an FoS.

This isn't my point. You stated you didn't think his comments were bad. I asked what post you found good and never answered that.
I see you 2 scum based on the following.
1) your lack of explanantion on what about Nik was fine.
2) nick's vote and then unvote under pressure looks scummy. He voted with little to no reason.
3) you saying it's not a serious vote but when a player says they find 2 players scummy it's a bit serious in my view

I still can't understand why you are voting me. I stated my case on Ythan/Nick, a player you also said you find scummy, and I voted for him. You find it suspicious that I didn't find Nick's vote scummy, even though I found just about everything else those players did scummy. You then declared a Nick/MMM scumteam. You say that I used 'horrible logic' in declaring Nick's vote unscummy.

I did? Where?

Nick and McG both voting with no reason. McG played this way in another game where he just floated and was town. He is going to be one of those I will never have a good read on.
Nik on the other hand is still saying the same thing he said before without putting a reason down.

chauchaudotcom: What makes you feel MMM post is genuine?

[farside22]

You say that I used 'horrible logic' in declaring Nick's vote unscummy.

Where did I say the above ^

You should be reading the post instead of just quoting everything above.

[farside22]

Also MMM if a post isn't good and it's not fine what exactly is the post?

The place holder comment that Nick makes is obviously not what I'm refering to in my post. And doesn't mean it's not serious.

3) you saying it's not a serious vote but when a player says they find 2 players scummy it's a bit serious in my view

This means whether it's a place holder or not he (nick) seriously thought one of MMM or Mind is scum.

[farside22]

If Nicks' post is not good and it's not bad what is his post if not fine MMM?

I find it interesting because I beleive you are scum together and could be bussing. I want all to see the contradictions.

[farside22]

Ythan/NickF227: OK, read in ISO, Ythan is obvious scum. He's overly aggressive, makes posts of little content, and his 'reasoning' for voting RayFrost is very, very, bad. Nick is better, but still pressures for a lynch and overreacts when called upon.

Why I see a buss number 1

Doesn't explain how ythan is overagressive. Calls Nick not bad and better then ythan. Points out the obvious that has been said by others.
Also stating that Nick's post are not bad in regards to ythan even though he unvoted do to pressure means his post are scummy or bad and not okay.

Contradiction #2 in regards to Nick's post

Mostly that he has longer posts, hasn't been attacking RayFrost for no reason, it's not that he has good posts so much as a lack of really bad posts.

Still this doesn't explain who nick is okay.

Now calls the unvote from nick as casual contradiction #3

@ farside22: I don't see Nick's vote as scummy. He said it wasn't entirely serious. If he turned it into a big deal, then it would be a scumtell, but he just unvoted casually. I could be way off on this, but I call it like I see it.

Wasn't this the main reason he is scummy to most people including MMM?

And here we go back to calling it scummy

Soon after the vote.

And his unvote was clearly triggered by the reaction to his hurry up comment.

Nicks vote on MMM for no reason is why I see them together. His unvote is just a pressure weak I'm scum I folded tell.

[farside22]

I never said the vote was part of my reasoning. As for other people, you just gave me heck for using the same tells that other people found scummy. So far, I count one contradiction you've made.

Now I know your not reading. I'm talking about his unvote:

MMM wrote:

Ythan/NickF227: OK, read in ISO, Ythan is obvious scum. He's overly aggressive, makes posts of little content, and his 'reasoning' for voting RayFrost is very, very, bad. Nick is better, but still pressures for a lynch and

overreacts when called upon.

If the bold is not about
Then you state this:

Mysterious Mystery Man wrote:
@ farside22: I don't see Nick's vote as scummy. He said it wasn't entirely serious. If he turned it into a big deal, then it would be a scumtell,

but he just unvoted casually

Then here

MMM wrote:

Soon after the vote.

And his unvote was clearly triggered by the reaction to his hurry up comment.

Goes from looks bad, to calling it causla to saying he was triggered by the pressure.

@Chau: I learned from ABR if you think 2 people are scum together you go for the person you see as the head of the snake. IE the smarter person who will manipute and lead. I read MMM as that type.

[farside22]

Nick should claim. Is today deadline or tomorrow?

[farside22]

I can give it a few more hours. I think either an MMM or Nick lynch is informative in my view at this point.

Mod: prod Nick

[farside22]

Not sure if I'm late mod stated we may get an extension do to replacements.

Mod: Extension still happening?

[farside22]

MMM wrote:

Making a serious vote this quickly will likely cause either one of two things: I am lynched, or you are lynched. Either way, it's not a smart move for town, the exception being of course, if I am scum.

@Hitogoroshi: I would rather get your views the sell people anything.
@confucius: You took over a very lurky spot. Can you expand more on your views of the game at large.

People I would like to hear more from:
Semioldguy, Deer, evil and MMM

I need to look at my past notes and views on this game. But that post for MMM still stands out.

[farside22]

I'm reading everyone in Iso right now. I'm going to take a break and post some of my thoughts on those I read.

chauchaudotcom - Reading in iso the first 6 post are lots of questions towards players but I dont' see any scum hunting thus far.
I find a question like this

Given we are now SEVEN pages in. Is Bio & Frost still your only leads?

hypocritical coming from her since her vote was still on Ray which was an RVS vote and she hasn't stated any views on who was scum yet.
Finall post subject 8 I get some meat of a case here I agree that if a player finds people suspicious on a wagon they should be questioning or pushing those players with questions.
I do feel that with all the questions she asked she is a bit touchy when I asked a question here
This is a really well thought out point on the number of time MMM attacked those (or OMGUS) those voting him here
I really hate the bw vote at the end just so their is a lynch. It always gives me scum vibes.

There are some really good points and then some things I find from chau that I don't like. The vote on nick, the hypocrisy comment. But when she see's something scummy she aggressive questions and prods the person.
I think I would like to see a scum list from her with reasoning. Right now I'm in the middle leaning town.

Confucius /ortolan -
Ortolan
hypocritical considering the source of this comment
adding nothing to the convo
talks only about the 2 leading wagons
Confucius I would like examples of evil doing what your saying.

@confucius: You took over a very lurky spot. Can you expand more on your views of the game at large.

No.
I will expand on my opinions in my own time with the pace of the Day. Seeing as I am formally attacking two players and there can only be three scum, my views "at large" should be rather apparent. Right now I am looking for possible partnerships.

Are you saying you see a connection between the two players or you find them scummy for seperate reasons?

Ort comes off incredible opportunist, lurky scum. This is why I wanted more from Confucius. Ort's been very under the radar and so far confusion isn't making me feel anything warm or fuzzy.
Leaning scum.

Deer /GoroHonda - reading this Likes the case that BH did on mindgamer but doesn't say his views on the case or why he likes it.
I'm not sure about Deer. I don't see real points in things he says. I would like to know why he is voting evil when he felt strongly about mindgamer.
With deer he needs to post more and expand on reasoning as of now uncertain.

evilsnail -

I'm still suspicious of MMM. My feelings about that haven't changed. I didn't add a vote, because it didn't seem very productive. There was enough pressure on him already and I'm not sure yet that his actions so far merit a lynch.

They didn't merrit a lynch but did they merrit a vote? What made ythan scummier then MMM in your view?

something looks similiarsimilar reasoning
So why vote one over the other?

Evil's vote on ythan over MMM makes me really think. Both cases looked almost identical but he voted for ythan over MMM because he didnt' see a need to be a forth vote on MMM. This just doesn't jive with me. I also usually find scum buddying to townies and his comments and following of Ray saying he looks town is weak.
Leaning scum.

[farside22]

havingfitz/ Mindgamer - mind's vote on ythan here I dont' understand the tell.
I have never seen this

Statements like 'I know I'm good, but don't expect me to catch all the scum so soon!' are usually made by scum, not town.

as a scum tell. I can't ask mind for examples though. :'/
this

Bio Hazard
Because the wagon growed so quickly.

seems to be avoiding the point.
I get the impression read this mind found MMM scummy. I could be wrong but there was definate disagreements with MMM here.
nvm this says no and I understand the McG reasoning. Unfortunately I have been running into a very anti-town mcG lately.
He criticizes the MMM wagon and calls someone on it scum, while not really saying why.
Now that all of Mind's suspects are flipped town I have nothing on Mind's view and a replacement that needs to post views.
Mind continuing defense of MMM saying the wagon is scummy with only attacking ythan/nick and McG is proven a wrong view.
I'm going to see what the replacement says but IGMYOU right now.

hitogoroshi /RayFrost - I'll be frank. Reading Ray in iso I dont' see anything scummy in his post. People talk about him being nervous. I dont' see it. He seemed very focased on MMM throughout the day and doesn't say anything about anyone else.
Looks like hitogoroshi will be posting something today. I'm leaning neutral town here.


2 more to do. Break time again. All this analysis these past few days in other games has gotten to me.

[farside22]

MMM - My first issue with MMM is most of the players he has suspicion are based on those who are suspicious of him.
herehere

this still reads that he knows bio was town.

this feels like panic at the votes saying it was too early for serious votes.

and this made BH scummy how?

calling one scum and the other not as bad with your reasons being that ythan is overly aggressive. His reason's for voting ray by the was was an ongoing game. I just didn't get your reason's for your vote.

In rereading MMM I wish he had expanded like this in the first place.

this post bothers me because he had stated suspicion on Ray and BH more then myself or mindgamer so why the sudden change?

I still scum vibes coming from MMM calling Ray nervous is laughable compared to reading MMM who comes across as nervous. I'm starting to learn that being nervous is more a null tell then scum tell.
I did not like that most of the people he had suspicion on were the one's attacking him. I usually see scum become more defense and attack players, attacking them.
Still leaning scum.

Semioldguy - He attacked ythan pretty hard core and McGriddle but doesn't seem to have any imput for the start of the day. I can't say he's been really scum hunting. The biggest case he had was on ythan and question McG.
So far feels under the radar. Needs to start posting more content. Right now null read.


In short my following suspects are MMM, Evil and Confucius

vote: MMM

[farside22]

Vote Count 2.3:

evilsnail (1): Deer
havingfitz (1): chauchaucotdom
Mysterious Mystery Man (1): Confucius

Not Voting (6): evilsnail, farside22, havingfitz, hitogoroshi, Mysterious Mystery Man, semioldguy

Pretty sure I have a vote on 326 to Mysterious Mystery Man. (MMM for short)

So you do. It will be fixed.

[farside22]

Why don't you read evilsnail's posts in isolation and decide if my interpretation of his posts is accurate? There is not much to read from his posts.

Practically all of his posts explain or re-explain why he unvoted RayFrost and why he voted for Ythan over Mysterious Mystery Man. He largely comes to the thread only to answer questions posed towards him, hence he is not proactive.

Are you saying you see a connection between the two players or you find them scummy for seperate reasons?

There is an obvious connection between evilsnail and Mysterious Mystery Man. Namely, evilsnail claimed to be suspicious of Mysterious Mystery Man for the entirety of Day One, and yet his vote was continually on Ythan because “there was enough pressure on [MMM].”

I saw these both myself after reading him in iso myself.

[farside22]

farside22, if you "saw those both" after reading him in isolation, then why bother asking for examples? Are you trying to get me to make a more expanded case on evilsnail? What was your purpose?

Pretty sure it's because I was reading you first. I usually like to have people expand on things but since I found it myself and came to the same conclusion it is now a moot point.

[farside22]

I tunnel MMM I would post games in which I tunnel a person to death. It's a null tell.
Also it you want to try and reinterpret my post where I say it's laughable calling Ray nervous. I'm saying you seem nervous (period) With Bh and ray and how you responded to them it seemed like you were nervous.

I also said the following

I'm starting to learn that being nervous is more a null tell then scum tell.

Your reaction to the vote felt like panic.

[farside22]

Farside - What made you think orto is leaning scum but not Deer?

I don't see anything close to what Ort did that deer has done. If you have please show examples.

[farside22]

MMM:

Curious. Above you said you didn't understand my reasons for voting Ythan.

I read in iso and respond to things as I read them. So even though I will say one thing that bothers me I will comment on things that explain it but still leave my comments as is.

STRAWMAN ALERT! STRAWMAN ALERT!

The post was about who I wanted to ISO and analyse. I never made any indication that MG and FS22 were looking more scummy than BH and RF.

Not sure how that is a strawman. I misread the post.
I saw this

Anyway, I still see Nick as scummiest. If we had more time, I might look into farside22 and mindgamer some more, but I'm comfortable enough with Nick for day 1.

Which has Nick as the scummies but wanting to read 2 others you never mentioned as suspecting them.
Where do you still stand with RF?

calling one scum and the other not as bad with your reasons being that ythan is overly aggressive. His reason's for voting ray by the was was an ongoing game. I just didn't get your reason's for your vote.

Rephrase: You called ythan scummier then Nick with your basis for ythan being that he was overly aggressive (I don't see this as a scum tell) I didn't like ythan bring up a current game as a reason for finding ray scum but it's not scummy in itself so I didn't agree with your reasoning or undrestand your vote on Nick.

MMM: Your also scummy to me because of you OMGUS nature where you attack RF and bio for attacking you.
Panic over votes. I haven't seen scum hunting from you. I have seen OMGUS cases or following.

[farside22]

Sorry I have been so quiet. I had to replace in another game in exchange for someone replacing in my game. I will be back here today with more input.

[farside22]

Mysterious Mystery Man is slightly suspicious to me, but not for many of the reasons others have put forward as mentioned, and I am looking at you as my third suspect mostly for reasons brought up against you.

What are these 'other reasons' for suspecting MMM?

I don't know what you mean by "other reasons" since I never mentioned "other reasons." I don't like many of the existing cases/reasons already against him, some of which I have specifically mentioned. One of the points I do see as potentially scummy I have also said in a previous post. Could you elaborate on what you are asking?

Yeah you implied you had reason's to suspect MMM but not for reason's others put forward. Which I also see to mean you had other reason's to suspect MMM.
What reason's do you have to suspect MMM?

Which questions have I not followed up on? I question things that are suspicious or off to me (or to get individuals to talk more so I can get a read on them). If it satisfies me, I move on. If it doesn't, I continue questioning and follow with a vote if necessary, or save it in my notes and keep my eye on that person. I'm curious as to why I am more suspect versus farside whos posts I've found to be full

Why have you not brought this up earlier?

Well in my opinion, both of contributed virtually nothing of use in my view. So a primary concern of mine was how you came to the conclusion that Ort is leaning scum but not Deer seeing how you're in agreement that they are both contributing little and lurking.

Did you even read the case I had on Ort? It had little to do with his lurking.

havingfitz: What is your view of lynching at the end of the day? Do you think it's better to have a lynch and info or not lynch?

MMM: I would like a scum list from you with solid reason's on why a player is scummy. Why are you voting havingfitz?

[farside22]

farside22, how has Nick's flip affect your opinions of me?

I had my reason's outside of Nick that jumped up as you being scummy. I think you are coming off better. I think I would like to see more scum hunting from you, I do realize it's difficult to defend and scum hunt.
I'm going to lower you to IGMEOY for now.

unvote:
vote: Evil

[farside22]

Note to all game:
I got swarmed at work. Will be on tempory leave for the next 2 days.

[farside22]

Mod: I saw you were in need of 3 replacement. Can we get an extension for at least one week if this is correct.

[farside22]

Alright people we are coming down to deadline. I want people to just focus on their top 2 suspects and see if we can get a lynch.

I would vote for evilsnail and havingfitz.

[farside22]

confirming my prod. I finally caught up at work that I will have something of substance later today.

[farside22]

havingfitz vote and reasoning for vote on chau is terrible. Most people look to lynch for information. Hammering on someone to get a lynch isn't scummy
post 401
Please explain how this should be taken then if not what I stated

Mysterious Mystery Man is slightly suspicious to me, but not for many of the reasons others have put forward as mentioned, and I am looking at you as my third suspect mostly for reasons brought up against you.

I would not vote someone I did not have suspicions on to avoid a no lynch. I did not have suspicions D1 towards Nick

I think this is because you weren't even around for day 1 to state who you were suspicious of.
Havingfits: Do you believe MMM is scum?

Also, that meta read is worthless, as unless you can say that Bio Hazard had good reason for believing me to be scum, my vote on him was valid.

Why is it worthless?
post 396 again you had suspicion for no one day 1 so that point is not valid for me.
Semi: Why do you feel the need to withhold your vote? Why do you suspect chau and evil?
confucius post 406 I agree with this but mostly because he kept arguing the wording being used on what he said instead of just saying here is what I meant.

Did Mysterious Mystery Man only become a suspect for you on Day Two? Exactly when did you find him scummy? If you found him scummy on Day One, why didn't you mention it or pursue it?

Yes, on day two. When I made that post.

Did you dodge the reset of these questions for any reason?

Have you considered looking and analyzing games in which he is town? Or have you already done this? If/After you have done this, how does your read change or stay the same. When this is done I am more willing to accept a meta argument.

seriously? He makes a point and you want him to do more research to find town play because it's not good enough
FOS: SEMI

havingfits: is the only reason your suspicious of chau do to the hammer?

post 414 good to know which means for him it's a null tell then.
post 416 what the (bleep) are you on. Your voting for chau so if you felt that strongly you should be voting for MMM
post 417 UGH!!! Take the damn olive brance you stupid (blank, blank, blank) I swear your attitude is just anti-town
Semi: post 420 why did you vote for chauch at that point?

post 429
I had a outline case on evil if you read me in iso that has not changed at all and MMM still is someone I consider scummy
You is based a bit on mindgamer but more on you and how you are pointing the finger at someone when you never stated a suspicion in the first place

12 days gives me more of a townie feel than scum

yes because only a town player flakes and disappears
It's null at best
post 434 good post.
*adds to re - look at semi in iso.*
Pitt: I didn't see much on me. I feel so left out.

As previously mentioned several times. I didn't notice it. If you think not noticing something is scummy, I can't refute that, but I'd like to know why you think it is scummy.

personally I have an issue with it because you stated you had something other then what others felt were MMM's scumminess. Which means you were not reading day 1 and I find those not reading scummy

And my scum list consist of semiold, havingfitz, MMM and evil.

[farside22]

MMM: I read BH as trying to push your buttons and read you as flustered at being pushed. That is why I read the vote on BH as OMGUS.

[farside22]

@havingfitz: yes I do have a case but seeing as all you do is roll your eyes at everything I say without saying why for example I should believe that you didn't think Nick was scum. It's really convient to say as you were not here during day 1 and blaming someone else and attacking them for hammering is oh so convient.

[farside22]

@ farside22: But my point is that I voted BH because I believed his case on me was bad play for town. Confucius didn't agree, which implied that he thought BH's reasoning was solid. But the burden of proof is on him, and you also, to show that my vote was based on OMGUS. Sadly, he doesn't seem to understand 'burden of proof'.

That's is maybe your view but I stated what I saw and felt on my read. Just as you can't prove that you that you felt this way instead of scared scum any more then all we can go on is my impression based on the read.

[farside22]

havingfitz: I gave you one eye roll not several eye rolls. And it's easy to say well I thought X was town when you never gave a view in the first place.
Semi: why are you voting for evil?

[farside22]

No counter claim from me either. I want to read Deer/pitt in iso myself. As well as semi and get some clues. Will hopefully have something more specific by tomorrow.

[farside22]

No counter-claim or cross-vote from me. I need to review the game, particularly the interactions between chauchaudotcom and semioldguy. I voiced the suspicion earlier that they were scum busing, and it's a more likely possibility now.

BS ALERT
BS ALERT
BS ALERT
BS ALERT

What you said yesterday was the following:

I'm currently undecided on CC.com, it will depend on my read of semioldguy. If he looks scummy, CC.com will look better, and vice versa. As it stands now, I see no reason to exclude CC.com from suspicion. I don't like how she switched from mindgamer to semioldguy so suddenly.

So you want to explain why your saying that you think it was bussing when yesterday you were back and forth on one them as scum?

[farside22]

She starts day 2 by voting havingfitz, since he's mindgamer's replacement, but then questions semioldguy. It starts with a casual 'what are you thinking', but then most of her posts are responding to his.

Interesting how both CC.com and farside22 are quick to deny any possibility of distancing.

Quote please.

[farside22]

Pittbunny /Deer
Deer's view day 1 post 153
reading this I could see deer checking MM, mindgamer or rayfrost.
Those where the four he listed as the scummiest at this point.

I still don't like mindgamer much and I'm not quite sure MMM is scum. However, I heartily disapprove of mcgriddle and nick's votes. Gotta do some rereading.

Again I could see this as a suspect in his view.
[http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 90#2241190] post 437 [/url] Reads MMM as scum as well as semi, snail and myself.

I think if pitt investigated Semi he would not have backed down and voted evil here.

List:

Semi, Snail, Chau, Farside, Hito, MMM, Confucius. However, I'm willing to instigate a L-2 via swap for the sake of running out of time.

Unvote; Vote Evilsnail

I have to agree with chau assement based on what deer stated day one of his suspicion on mindgamer to Pitt's null read and taking him off the list above that I would see this as havingfitz being checked.
I know if I find someone scum they would be a call out in big bold letters.


I keep getting interupted today at work I will do my read of semi next and then *looks pointed at MMM* requote the stuff that MMM ignored before.

Pie: Why is MMM looking town to you?

[farside22]

Clarification: writing off havingfitz as town will probably prove suicidal whether MMM is scum or town. It's just that willingness to suicide in the name of scumhunting is a very protown thing.

Chau did the same thing before him and did it reading deer/pitt and coming to that conclusion. What is the difference between them in this case?

MMM: Are you going to respond to the fact that you never stated that you "voice suspicioun of bussing" when you never stated that before and then attack myself for showing a quote that never said that before?

[farside22]

All of day 1 Semi pretty much ignores MMM.
Then we get to day 2

The "scare tactic" and jumping to conclusions in that post are not things I think are particularly scummy. However it did alert me to something else that potentially could be scummy; post 105 gives off the impression that Mysterious Mystery Man knows that the other person, Bio Hazard, isn't scum by omitting him in his exception. (as in his example would also be good for town if Bio Hazard was scum, which Mysterious Mystery Man doesn't consider)

This is the same point being mentioned during day 1
Mind you he doesn't vote at this point on MMM either

Note MMM and hito missing from this

My top two suspects are not your top two suspects. chauchaudotcom and evilsnail would currently make up my top two suspects. I don't think you are attacking scum. And again, are you going to use me not attacking evilsnail as a point against me but not against yourself? How am I supposed to attack him at any length when he obviously is not here to respond?

I like reading semi in iso he does light attacks on MMM throughout day 2 but then turns onto chau. There was a whole discussion about 105 which I brought up day 1 he ignored and this leads me to see a connection between MMM/Semiold

Next up will read hito/chau in iso.

[farside22]

Pie_is_good/ hitogoroshi/ RayFrost

Yeah, I think we're about out of RVS now. As I said, my current suspicions are on Bio Hazard, maybe RayFrost.

OMGUS?

technically I can see more frustration reasoning with Ray. So far he's voting you for it seems reaction

Ythan are you making a point?

I sincerely believe that MMM is scum.

Him acting placatingly to me while also saying I'm suspicious is scummy.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 23#2172323

Note reading Ray in inso: There was no real iteraction between semi and Ray.

semioldguy

I like semi's posts pretty well. That being said, in the semi v Confucius 'debate', I'm more on Confucius's side, in that without meta evidence suggesting otherwise I would see MMM's brand of attacking your attacker as more scum motivated. Of course, he dropped that case because of MMM's town meta, and it was semi that suggested he look at that, so that's a point for semi for sure. Still, barring that point, nothing particularly suspect as of now.

The only reason Semi is town is because of the meta argument and dropping it. What else could he do at that point being forced with evidence?
This doesn't really say much else.

Next will me Chau then MMM tomorrow.

[farside22]

Semioldguy - He attacked ythan pretty hard core and McGriddle but doesn't seem to have any imput for the start of the day. I can't say he's been really scum hunting. The biggest case he had was on ythan and question McG.
So far feels under the radar. Needs to start posting more content. Right now null read.

Reading this over, I have a hard time understanding how after writing these lines, you come to a “null read.” By Day Two, you were well aware that both Ythan and McGriddle were town. semioldguy had attacked both of them nearly exclusively. Worse, you couldn't even say he looked like he was legitimately scum-hunting. And not only that, but he was “under the radar” and “needs to post more content."

It seems that when players who are now confirmed town were "under the radar" or not "posting enough content" for your liking, it was scummy (see: your iso-reads on evilsnail and ortolan), but when applied to semioldguy it doesn't so much as make you lean scummy.

Vote: farside22

.

farside22, who do you think is town?

I have seen town and scum attack someone hard core. For me tunneling on someone is not scummy. I could give you links to my own tunneling as town and people surmising that I'm scum because the player was town.
During that read I didn't feel I had a enough info from Semi to judge.
Ort was actively lurking as well as evil saying little to nothing of value. Plus I thought Evil and MMM scum together in my analysis.

As for who I think is town right now I only see confusion as town.

[farside22]

Deadline is not until May 30.

farside22, if you were forced to proclaim a second player as town (not including yourself), who would it be?

havingfitz based on the breadcrumb I see from Deer/Pitbunny

[farside22]

farside22, that leaves three possible pairings from your perspective:

{Pie_is_good with chauchaudotcom}
{Pie_is_good with Mysterious Mystery Man}
{chauchaudotcom with Mysterious Mystery Man}

Which pairing do you find to be the

least

likely?

Tough call. Frankly I can see chauchaudotcom/MMM with his back and forth day 2 calling her town to saying she could be scum then day 3 saying he thought it was bussing from the start. Which was a lie. I could see this as weak bussing from scum.
Based on the replacement issue with Pie where Ray finds MMM scum to hito saying he was unsure to pie declaring him town. It's a mixed bag of WTF.
As for pie/Chauch. Ray didn't say much to chauch and focased all on MMM. hito just did an analysis with little interaction with anyone.

I would say I could see chauch/MMM scum team the most out of the three combo.

[farside22]

Tough call.

[farside22]

MMM quotes:

chauchaudotcom: Looks smart town.

chauchaudotcom: Town read, seems smart. The one confusing thing is how relatively little attention she's given to mindgamer, despite his being her number 1.

I gotta say, havingfitz's 428 makes it look like he's buddies with evilsnail. As for the third scum, I think it's got to be either CC.com or semioldguy, but for the life of me I can't be sure which one.

Reading CC.com in ISO, and I found a few problems. She starts day 2 by voting havingfitz, since he's mindgamer's replacement, but then questions semioldguy. It starts with a casual 'what are you thinking', but then most of her posts are responding to his. I also don't like her disinterest in havingfitz's weak vote on her, and I'm wondering about a scum team. Given the fact that they either are or were voting for each other, they don't really seem to be questioning one another. Looks like distancing.

Flip flipping in the very next post

I'm currently undecided on CC.com, it will depend on my read of semioldguy. If he looks scummy, CC.com will look better, and vice versa. As it stands now, I see no reason to exclude CC.com from suspicion. I don't like how she switched from mindgamer to semioldguy so suddenly.

Suddenly oh wait day 3 scum partner is next. Backtrack, backtrack.

No counter-claim or cross-vote from me. I need to review the game, particularly the interactions between chauchaudotcom and semioldguy. I voiced the suspicion earlier that they were scum busing, and it's a more likely possibility now.

[farside22]

Sigh another replacement.
@MMM: Do you think Chau is town? If not who in your view is town and why?

I have 2 more reads to do. This is my top priorty as of today.

[farside22]

I have checked out. I think waiting for a replacement would be best but if we don't get a deadline I'm not going to fight over my lynch. I think looking on confusion we have a very capable vig who can I believe looking at the 3 possible scum suspects in my view.

MMM/Chau/Pie
has a better then 50/50 shot of find one of the 2 remaining scums after my lynch.
I lean more MM/Chau and with Chau asking for a replacement I could agree with Pie on this view.

vote: Chau

I have seen scum leave under pressure more often then town.

[farside22]

Lets see you have one confirmable role left in the game. 5 players. If your scum your best hope is to mislynch and hope the vig misfires while you do your kill leaving scum to win.
The chances of a miss kill after my lynch is 50/50.
Town lynches a scum. Best scum can hope for is the vig fires to the wrong person for a lylo situation tomorrow.
I think the scum have more to be concerned with being lynched. Pie gives her pressure she conceded but semi gives her pressure and she squabbles.
Just doesnt' make sense to me.

[farside22]

There's also my view on this. I know I'm town. I know with no counter claim that confus is town.
That leaves chauc, pie, mmm and havingfitz.
I believe that reading Deer and pitt that havingfitz was more then likely investigated (would you agree or disagree at this point?)
That leaves me with 3 players.
I already see the biggest connection with Semi/MMM and Chauc over any other connection in the game.
Second connection would be MMM/Pie just all the back and forth with Pie and I dont' think MMM said much to anything to hito and Ray frost pushing on him but nothing more could be scum bussing. With all the replacements on Pie it's hard to get a good grasp on the standing. Would RayFrost buss his partner? I know I have seen him do it before.
The only person who I see thought MMM was scum is currently voting me. I dont' see that changing and I dont' see MMM getting lynched even though I believe he is more likely scum. Once he flips it's clear Chauc or Pie is scum at that point.
Since MMM seems to getting town points for being nothing more then OMGUS to people I will vote the next possibility in my mind as his scum partner in Chauc.

[farside22]

I would say they were distancing each other and using that arguement as a ruse. One flips scum who would look at the other with a argument like that.

[farside22]

But neither were expected to flip scum. I don't see any reason for busing.

I have seen scum distance before. It bit me in the ass in another game.
This was with kise and SL. Anyways they started to attack each other day 3 in the game so when there was one scum left everyone thought about the attack and declared the scum town at that point.

[farside22]

So anyone seen any good movies lately?

I saw the critic tear apart the new Shrek movie. It gives me pause to not see it. Loved the new Iron Man movie but still liked Terance Howard better then what's his name as Tony's friend. The villian in the movie was played perfectly and I'm a sucker for Samn Rockwell.

[farside22]

Note

: I am going to be V/LA in a couple days for possibly a week or so. I will probably get some intermittent internet access, but nothing reliable.

~

farside22, suppose we lynch you and you come up town. Who would you propose I vig, knowing that a misvig outright loses the game?

Now suppose we lynch chauchaudotcom and she comes up town. Who would you propose that I vig, knowing that a misvig outright loses the game?

If you decide to lynch me and I flip town you should vig either chauch or MMM. I'm pretty certain they are scum.

If chauch flips town (which is hard to see at this point in my view) then it's MMM/Pie that are the scum team.
The math is pretty simple in my view based on who I feel is town.

[farside22]

Hold on, how do get that I'm scum with Pie? As I see it, the fact that not only has Pie not hammered you, but has actively avoided your lynch this whole time means that either he's scum with you, or he's town.

It's just simple math of who I find town and knowing myself to be town. I can tell you haven't been reading the discussion going on. Not that scum ever read anything.

[farside22]

Pie: Why do you think havingfitz could be scum? I still don't see MMM as town either.

[farside22]

I know I'm not scum here. MMM is just following along with anyone.

Mod: When is deadline?

[farside22]

@ farside22: Check my posts and you'll see that I originally wanted a lynch of Pie_is_good, and declared the both of you most likely scum.

Not that scum ever read anything.

Ah yes I see it now. Too much back and forth with too many games.
Basically the way I see it you will vote for either pie or me but not chauch even though you had some suspicion that you are trying to tell others doesnt' make sense.
Let me know if I got it wrong.

[farside22]

And my point about scum distancing and pointless bickering I have seen scum do fell on deaf ears because........???

[farside22]

@havingfitz: I would vote for Pie although he is third suspect on my list and I feel a MMM/Chauch connection is more likely.
@MMM What pattern do I have with Pie or anyone?

[farside22]

Well I'm not going to be lynched as town just because Pie decided to wake up and vote me after all this time.

Unvote, Vote: Pie

[farside22]

So except for day 1 I would say this was a bad game for me. I figured pitt or confusion was the best person to kill N2.
I thought McG hid behind Bio so seeing his results was surprising

scum qt
here.

I thought the game seemed more in favor of the town. I believe the town lost because of replacements more then anything.