Open 227 - Friends and Enemies

[Octupis]

Vote Lowell

because he hasn't voted yet.

wow. good catch there. i didn't even notice that. he jumped off the lead bandwagon without even mentioning it. lets get out of the rvs. my vote stands.

I find it strange that you should want for us to 'get out of the rvs'. As I understand it, the rvs takes place because we have no real information to go on at the beginning of the game; the rvs stimulates discussion which will then lead onto more formal stages. I always understood it to be an organic process which was ultimately to the advantage of the town because it leads to more information, or at least discussion, which can lead to information. You, on the other hand, have found something suspicious and immediately call for the rvs to finish. I may be looking too deep into things already, but I question your motives for trying to end an effectively pro-town stage, prematurely.

[Octupis]

RVS discussion is no more pro-town than any-other-stage-discussion.

Yes, I see. My point was though, that the RVS is an oppurtunity for certain discussions to begin, like the point raised by Don about Zerofang's behaviour. However, the RVS could allow for further points to be developed if it is allowed to take its natural cause. I just thought it was peculiar that Don was trying to restrict the size of a stage that could be more fruitful that it seems to have been. Although I see your point.

And I know that it is useless and your complains aren't really valid.

Who was this comment directed at?

[Octupis]

no. if lowell is scum, and he plays anti-town, then it should be easy for you to get him lynched. why would you want him to replace if you think you could easily get him lynched and he might be scum? the way you said it sounded like you want him to replace because he's "anti-town", but "anti-town" play only hurts town if it comes from a town player. hence, you know lowell is town and are saying that you want him to replace in order to

look

pro-town in case he is lynched or nk'd and actually does flip town. you ignore the scenario in which lowell could be scum. otherwise you would vote him instead of asking him to replace.

This is very suspicious. I think it is fair to say that the most appropriate course of action here is to request Lowell's replacement if he doesn't show up. Irrespective of his alignment, anti-town play, hurts town. However, you seem to be advocating Lowell's 'easy lynch' rather than his replacement. As already stated, it would be better to have another player actually playing, than to have him lynched without knowing anything about him. This whole argument seems very suspicious indeed.

percentages are fine and dandy, but the ones presented(chance of lowell being scum) are based on random role distribution and are unreliable.

As far as I can tell, the percentages are valid. The chance that the roles were assigned randomly (which I presume they were) actually reinforces their validity. We don't know who has what roles but we do know that the roles are a 75:25 ratio, town to scum. As such, it is statistically more likely that Lowell is town than he is scum at this point. Of course that will change as people start dying and the ratio changes.

all i did was point out that an "anti-town" player is not

always

detrimental to town because opinions on playstyle are subjective. in some situations(i.e. where the player gets lynched as scum) can actually be good. but this is becoming more of an "off the point" discussion.

You needn't repeat this point as a defence. I am not really convinced. Could you give an more specific example of 'anti-town' play that is not detrimental to the town please?

When did anyone say that they wanted to lynch Lowell?

Well, I voted for him in the RVS stage for a flippant reason (not voting yet, I think) but I was not advocating his lynch. I only mention it because I don't want it to be misinterpreted as something it isn't (especially considering the arguments presented already in this game).

My vote is not any use on Lowell.

Unvote

Mod: Could we have a vote count please? (Thanks).

[Octupis]

Don, please read my posts before replying to them.

percentages are fine and dandy, but the ones presented(chance of lowell being scum) are based on random role distribution and are unreliable.

As far as I can tell, the percentages are valid. The chance that the roles were assigned randomly (which I presume they were) actually reinforces their validity. We don't know who has what roles but we do know that the roles are a 75:25 ratio, town to scum. As such, it is statistically more likely that Lowell is town than he is scum at this point. Of course that will change as people start dying and the ratio changes.

and? i don't see the relevance here, same as i didn't see it earlier. lowell's chances of drawing a town role are the same as the rest of us. that doesn't mean that he

isn't

scum. and if ythan is town, then he should realize the chances of lowell being scum actually go up, which means that instead of asking for a replacement, he should be asking for lowell to show up and play so he can better determine others alignments.

You'd said that the statistics were unreliable. All I was doing was reiterating them to show you that they were reliable. You then acknowledged that the statistics were in fact correct (by only questioning their relevance, not their reliability). I was not talking about Ythan or any other factor of the game, just the reliability of those particular statistics which chauchaudotcom first presented. You've totally ignore my point again.

r u seriously worried about how your rvs vote is going to be interpreted in regards to this discussion?

A player asked a question, and I did my best to answer it. I am not worried about my random vote being misconstrued, I am just trying to make the situation as clear as possible. Besides, considering you behaviour at the beginning of the game, I was also a bit wary about you taking something that is not especially note worthy and tunneling with it (like you did with Zero).

I would also like to see more people playing. Is there a chance of some more prods per chance? Otherwise, I am beginning to suspect Don. I agree with Ythan and chauchaudotcom (who I think have both made similar points) in so much as that Don ignores what is being said to him and talks about irrelevant things instead. I find that to be anti-town because it is confusing, not to mention quite frustrating. Secondly, I find his case against Zero woefully inadequate (cluthcing at straws perhaps).

Vote don_johnson

Also Don, when you quote me again, please use my correct name. It's not a serious concern of mine, but it is just good manners.

[Octupis]

Again, please actually read what I write before replying, it could save us all a lot of time.

what point? that statistics are statistics? wonderful point. how are they relevant? is lowell 100% town? no, therefore there is a chance he is scum. regardless of the percentage, the possibility exists and should not be ignored.

If you read my last post, you will realise that all I was doing was trying to make you see that the statistics that had been presented were reliable. It is true to say that at present the town to scum ratio is 75:25. Therefore, there is a 75% chance of Lowell being a town and a 25% of him being scum. You didn't think this was reliable, yet when I pointed it out to you, you totally ignore your previous mistake and berate me for trying to help you out.

again, why are you worried. er, "wary"?

You thought that Zero's random vote was not quite right earlier in the game. I was worried because if you made a bullshit case out of almost nothing in that situation, you might try and pull the same trick on me. Also, what have you got against the word 'wary'?

zero's vote on me is based on my wanting to lynch lowell for his anti-town behavior. if anyone wants to reread and quote where i suggested this, please do. i never suggested we lynch lowell. my case on zero is based on the fact that he left his first rvs vote with poor reasoning. then he voted me with false reasoning. i don't see how the case is flawed unless this is all just a big misunderstanding. when i ask questions of others, i am accused of changing the subject. when i respond, my words are twisted.

still, noone seems to be commenting on my case against zero, and in fact, my case is being completely misrepresented.

it is not BASED SOLELY ON HIS RVS VOTE. it is his follow-up actions and false reasoning which have kept my vote from moving elsewhere.

How can the rest of us not be commenting on your case against Zero, while simultaneously misinterpreting it? It is impossible. And before you say it, you are not a mind reader (like you pointed out earlier in the game) so for you to know that we were misinterpreting it, we would have had to post about it. As Ythan said, none of your cases hold any water, and this is probably why. Their rubbish.

lowell rocks. please don't hate. when he shows up he's good.

what are you correcting me about again? my own thoughts and observations? okay.

do you think a scum lynch is bad for town? [/sarcasm]

just having fun with his name. name-calling would be more like ythan was doing to me when calling me a "moron". i'm just goofing on the guys name in my quote brackets. i do it all the time. if it really offends i can stop, but i don't cry "foul" when someone makes a miami vice reference. for cryin out loud, if you read his name phonetically it sounds like "octo piss". not my fault its humorous to start with.

now was that really a "relevant" post, xscorp? you seem content to let these guys hammer me even though you implied zero's vote was poorly explained. what gives?

okey dokey. let me know if you need me then.

Could you please explain how any of these quotes are either relevant or helping the town in their objective. Hey, I'll answer for you if you like, considering your lurking now. They just waste time and hinder the town by filling the thread with unnecesarry rubbish. I'm happy in my vote.

I agree with XScorpion though, I would like to know exactly what led you to vote for Don please, CSL.

[Octupis]

I was worried because if you made a bullshit case out of almost nothing in that situation, you might try and pull the same trick on me.

This is why you're scummy.

I see. I was worried because if a case is put up against me that is void of logic and is complete bullshit, it is very hard to combat. I see your point that innocent townies needn't worry about how they come across, because they are ultimately innocent, but the only way to prove this definitively is upon their death. Once they are dead, they are no use to the town. I didn't want Don to make a bullshit case against me like he started on Zero in post 36. I thought that I wouldn't be able to prove him wrong unless I died and proved my innocence, but then I would be no use. I was just trying to avoid this situation. I guess I failed. I can see where you're coming from though.

uh, i conceded your point that the statistics are reliable. relevant to the argument? no. but again. its an opinion.

I am glad you get my point about the statistics. I didn't really have a point besides correcting your idea that they were somehow unreliable.

imo, "wary" is a form of the word "worry". as in, you are being cautious about how your vote would be interpreted. i agree with AKR on this one.

I see your point about my wariness and hope to have answered it in the above paragraph, it is a valid criticism.

so, you think zero's vote on me was based in fact? if so, please find where i suggested we lynch lowell for his "anti-town" playstyle.

If you notice, I didn't mention Zero's vote or reasons for voting you in my quote. All I was saying is that it is impossible for us to have commented on it while simultaneously misinterpreting it, highlighting the recurring flaw in your arguments and the fact that you seem to be making them up as you go along.

taken out of context these quotes are. [/yoda] how are they any different from some of ythan's and xscorp's posts on the same subjects?

You have ignored my question. Four out of the five quotes were the entire thing you posted at that point, so I couldn't possibly have taken them out of context because that is all they are. On the other quote, although you have another point, I think the sentence rather explains itself, the other part of the quote doesn't alter the context. How were they relevant or pro-town? Please don't ignore this question again.

don't we all...

I'm glad we agree on something, at last...

[Octupis]

How were they relevant or pro-town? Please don't ignore this question again.

some were responses to what others wrote. they were relevant to the discussion at hand, hence, out of context. well, all except the original lowell comment, which was basically a response to ythan dissing him. as i said, i like lowell. not sure what else you're looking for here. now answer mine, how were my comments any less relevant than the comments of the other players involved in those exchanges? if you think about it, this is kind of a stupid conversation. we should move on.

I never said that others players comments weren't irrelevant. I agree, we should probably move on.

[Octupis]

Mod: I'm voting for Don too

[Octupis]

I'll re read too.

[Octupis]

Hello, I'm here too. I've been busy organizing some voluntary work though. Prod received. This is my re read.

CSL

- There isn't really much to say, hardly said anything in day one apart from voting for Don at the end, and it now appears that the reasons for doing so were the reasons already presented by others in thread. I don't see how you didn't have anything to say about any of the other players that hadn't already been mentioned and the only thing that you thought to say was that Don was lurking. It is not helpful to not contribute anything to the game.

ZeroFang

- I thought that the case against him at the start of the game was rubbish, however, since then, certain aspects of his behavior have just been creeping into the back of my mind. He answered for AKR early in the game which just struck a chord with me but what I did find suspicious is his suggestion that the masons should claim on day two. The suspicious thing is, that he suggested it after Don had been lynched but before it had been declared by the mod. I will be keeping my eye on him from now on.

However, since Xscorpion flipped mason, would it be a good idea to encourage them to claim. Before you jump down my neck, let me explain my reasoning. In this post Xite hinted at the fact that he might be a mason so he is probably a target for the mafia at night (if he were to die he would leave one mason, rendering them useless because they can't prove their innocence and narrow down the potential scum). Because the scum got lucky last night in their killing of XScorpion it means there are only two masons left which kinda suggests they should claim before another one dies and the other then becomes useless. I am relatively inexperienced at this game, but logic suggests that this is the best course of action in a situation that has now become difficult. I know that if one mason did remain they could possibly try and prove their innocence by softclaiming earlier in the game but it isn't very definitive and potentially susceptible to scum claiming to be masons.

AKnottedRope

- Something about his posts just keep telling me town. His posts are founded in evidence but he never really makes a substantial post about any one person. He will pick on small (admittedly telling factors though) but I would like to hear more of his thoughts. Sorry about your grandad.

Sanxion

– I find him suspicious. At the beginning of the game, he votes for Don for being scum, which doesn't strike me as very random or funny. He then attacks Lowell for not posting, and then lurks for pretty much the entire day. He also endorsed Don's case on Zero which was pretty weak and rather inconclusive (when you consider other votes placed in the RVS, I don't think Zero's stood out anyway). I don't know what to think at the moment about Sanxion but would like to hear more from him anyway.

chauchaudotcom

- I find him a particularly deceiving character to pin down. He is a discerning player that certainly picks up things and brings attention to them but I find that he is rather quick to move his vote about, and like AKR, he doesn't ever really present a formal or structured case on anyone person. As such, I am looking forward to find out what he has to say in his re read.

Lowell

- There is not a lot to comment on. But in post 181 he calls the case on Zero rubbish (which I agree with) and he attacks Don. Fine. But he makes the rather bold statement that Zero is town. I would like to know why you think this, especially because in your latest post you assign two negative signs to Zero's actions but fail to make a overall comment on him at the bottom of your post. I would like you to elaborate on this please.

Xite91

- Kinda alluded to the fact that he is possibly mason which was a fairly silly move in retrospect. Other than that, I would complain that he isn't as probing and as involved as other players.

Ythan

- I don't know much about Ythan's meta but I gather that he is usually this forthright and confrontational. I agree that Don was very suspicious on day one. I think Ythan's play was good for the town.

smashbro_of_the_SSS

- Again, not much to comment on. The points about Don's behaviour in regards to Lowell's declaration of Zero's innocence is a good one. I don't like the way you didn't want to vote for Don even though you thought he was suspicious. The lurking is bad so I would just like to hear more from you too. I am particularly interested because of your meta.

If I've missed anyone out, give me a shout but I think that is everyone.

[Octupis]

No. I don't think Masons should claim yet.

So, after all that work Octipus, who's your top pick for scum?

No one stands out really. When I think to myself: 'Who is scum?', I'm afraid it just triggers a whole new set of questions that ultimately lead me to just want to keep on reading to make it a bit clearer. Although, I am most suspicious of CSL and Sanxion.

The things wrong with this are:

1)The masons claiming makes sure they will be killed
2)Even having one mason alive is an asset, as they can still use it to prove themselves town later in the game
3)The bolded wordage above seems like you're leaving a way out of this argument

FoS:Octupis

I was a bit tentative because I am not yet too confident in my knowledge of the mechanics of the game so I don't want to make a fool of myself or waste your time by asking dumb questions. However, I have one. If only one mason survived until tomorrow, how could they definitively prove their innocence (I don't mean to patronize but the emphasis is on the definitive aspect) and isn't it possible that the scum could claim to be the mason?

[Octupis]

This...was a very odd answer to my question. To be clear, are you saying that you aren't committing a vote to anyone because you have a whole new set of questions that are unanswered when you ask yourself who's scum? If so, then what are these questions? Why not question your suspects about these questions and get answers? You claim that CSL and Sanxion are your current most suspicious yet you haven't exactly questioned either merely stated that they need to post more.

I don't know how you play this game, but when I get the train to work, I sometimes ponder my games in my head. I find CSL and Sanxion suspicious and I will be asking questions of them, along with everybody else who I want to question, but at this stage, that questions that are provoked in my mind can't really be answered by CSL and Sanxion. They are questions like, 'What are the odds of CSL or Sanxion being scum with Lowell?'. That is just an example, and I can't ask those sort of questions outright because they aren't just going to tell me whether or not they are scum. I hope you see my point.

-stops rolefishing, if he was-

Were you rolefishing? If not, then why did you bring attention to the possibility of Xite soft-claiming/bread crumbing?

This debate about softclaiming is both bizairre and several pages too late.

If it is several pages too late, why didn't you bring it up before?

I don't understand why we're discussing Mason scenario's now, but additionally, I don't really understand CSL's perspective on the ordeal. However, bringing attention to a potential soft-claim or breadcrumb doesn't look protown. And after his general neutrality over day 1 with play that resembled active lurking:
VOTE: CSL

Don't you have any more to say apart from this? What do you think about other players? After two days of play, this is all you've got? You are active lurking.

[Octupis]

@oct- I don't think the debate matters one way or the other, is the reason.

Why did you say it was late, if you didn't want it to happen anyway? I don't understand.

Where has he been scum hunting? So far all I've seen Octo do is post his views on everyone (in which he pretty much only gives town reads or has no opinion and that he should wait for more information - if you can't see why this is suspicious then think of how it would be like reading this game from a town's perspective vs a scum perspective). The only time he really begins to do anything is after I call him out on not pursuing his suspects. After which his questions seem forced, like they are being asked for the sake of asking questions.

I think this is slightly unfair, you have a go at me when I wasn't asking as many questions, and now I do, they seem 'forced'. What am I supposed to do, or are you just going to suspect me whatever happens? Also, who else do you suspect apart from me? You say you are concerned about the deadline, but you don't don't seem to be doing anything to actually prevent us from reaching a no-lynch.

VOTE: CSL

Alright, Smash isn't posting but CSL is still refusing to post further today or even try.
Naturally:

FoS

Smash

I guess you're voting for CSL becuse of his lurking? In which case, after considering your other posts today (day two) I am not convinced you are doing much scumhunting. You have given an extremely vague overview of some player's activities yesterday, you've replied to chau's questions about me, and you've called out Smash and CSL for lurking. Is there anything else you have to say about the rest of us, apart from Smash and CSL for lurking? It seems suspicious to me that you would settle for a policy lurker lynch that to actually post any considered points on any other player.

I said his reads were either town reads or neutral. He occasionally calls people 'suspicious' but rather then committing to his accusations he later qualifies it by saying, "Oh..he's suspicious but I'm not sure so I'll wait and see." It's classic scummy fence sitting. Mind you he stated that CSL and you were his top in response to my questioning his 'analysis' of players.

You accuse me of fence sitting. What annoys me though, is the fact that you don't seem to be calling out other players who are showing similar behaviour:

@Oct: At the time, no. I would rather let things resolve to some extent (like the above) before commenting. I would like a

Prod on CSL or a replacement

. He's been missing so I have been unable to further develop a view on him.

However, I am still heavily leaning CSL for scum. I really think Zero is probably scum for his actions day 1 (mentioned elsewhere) and his absence today.

Smash fits too...and his last post looks like a universal "agree with town, vote this guy. Mybad, don't notice mekthnxbai."

I really dunno what to think of that actually...

Both of these are worse than Smash, who has been absent. However, I really don't like his jump in to the game with an added vote to CSL. However, I'm still on the unsure of how to react to him. Thinking about it now, I am going to

unvote

until Smash contributes more because if he is lurking scum, I'd rather catch him today for his opportunism than tomorrow for lynching town (if CSL is) or for getting from townie points if he knows CSL is scum. Either way, I want a read on him *before* this lynch happens.

Sanxion appears to be just as indecisive, if not more indecisive than me. Yet you don't mention. I appreciate that he has voted, and I haven't but his case his a policy lynch, and he has not been doing much scumhunting apart from that. chauchaudotcom?

Lowell, Smash, CSL, anything to say? I would also like to see the vote count before voting.

[Octupis]

You've misunderstood me. I am not misrepresenting you. If you read the posts that I quoted, all I am pointing out is the fact that in them you seem to reach a conclusion of wanting to wait and see (which I was accused of). In the second, the last line is indecisive, and in the third, you again ask for more time to decide. I am not saying there is anything wrong with this, I am tentative and generally indecisive too, but what I am saying is that is chau is going to call me out on it, then he should also note that trend in your behaviour. I am not saying that these posts haven't added too the game, I have been very impressed with your play today, but I am saying that the opinions you reach seem to be generally indecisive, which the quotes show. Also, I'm not convinced about your case on CSL still. Smash hasn't really explained himself, and Zero gave the excuse of life. I don't see how this is different to the lurking of CSL. Lastly, I am also not very impressed at the speed that you unvoted your top pick for scum, CSL, and voted me, without even allowing me to reply.

We have different understandings of the term 'fence sitting', but I hope you see what I was saying, and realise that chau's behaviour is rather inconsistent in your favour.

[Octupis]

Sanxion, I'm still kinda worried that you might refute my last post, so I'm going to refine it, to save us time later on. I think your play today has been good, generally. However, I think you have been sitting on the fence. I was concerned about taking your posts out of context when I quoted you earlier, but I am going to show you exactly the parts I mean:

@Oct: At the time, no. I would rather let things resolve to some extent (like the above) before commenting.

I really dunno what to think of that actually...

Either way, I want a read on him *before* this lynch happens.

In each, you made a point, and then qualified it with a comment that nullifies your convictions. Now I admit that I do this, because I am honest, and I just write what I think. If I am unsure then I will write that. All I was saying was that chau hadn't seemed to notice you doing what he had attacked me for.

Chau, I didn't remember you posting your suspects, sorry about that. I was not expecting you to vote for Sanxion because of his fence sitting, but I was expecting you to have at least noticed it. I guess I was foolish to presume that you hadn't noticed it just because you hadn't posted it. In response to your question, I have a strange feeling about Lowell and would like to hear much more from him, I am awaiting an answer from him in fact, but would like to know what he thinks about lynch candidates today. Apart from that, I am interested to see if Ythan and AKR are going to start posting regularly again now. To answer your question, I would be interested to see Lowell lynched (it's just a gut feeling to be honest, I agree with Zero, in that there hasn't been an awful lot to go on today, but something about Lowell doesn't sit right with me). Also, why do you think that the other players aren't taking the bait, and lynching me?

[Octupis]

Correct me if I am wrong, but you are suspicious of Don partly because he was 'advocating Lowell's easy lynch rather than him being replaced'. 1. Don was not advocating Lowell's lynch for what ever reason. 2. Don was saying that Lowell was an easy lynch

because

of his anti-town play.

You also seem to say here that a replacement for an anti-town player is better than lynching, yes?

Yes. I think that would be a better because we get more information and then can make more informed decisions. We don't know anything about a player who doesn't show up. You are a good example of this, you already have proven to be more use that Smash bro ever was. It would have been worse for the town (whatever you alignment) to have continued with Smash bro than to have you playing now.

If he is being anti-town, why is that a reason for your vote? I sense some inconsistency here.

For the underlined part, why is your suspicion of Don relative to prods?

Anti town is a fairly ambiguous thing to say. They are exhibiting different types of behaviour but I thought that both were anti town. I thought that it was right to replace one and vote the other because they were being anti town in different ways so they warranted different responses. I guess the confusion arises from the fact that I used anti town (a term that can explain quite a lot of different types of behaviour) to describe both the players. I should have been more exact. I wouldn't say it is exactly a contradiction because in my mind they are doing different things so I was right to apply different standards, I just didn't articulate that in the forum well enough.

[Octupis]

I felt the same way about Lowell initially. But other then his odd fixation with voting me I agree more or less with his stances on others. But that being said, you feel that your gut read on Lowell is more reliable then anything you've seen people do all game? And I do hope you don't seriously expect me to answer your last question. Think about it and try again.

Yes. I feel that there hasn't been an awful lot to go on since the beginning of the game really (which is shown in the fact that meta played a large part of discussion on day one). Also, the strange lurking that has been going on from formerly consistent posters (Ythan, AKR, Zero, even Lowell was quite consistent at one point) has led me to fall back on my gut, I'll give the game a re-read before the deadline, but I fear that a no lynch may happen if the rest of the players don't come back. Lowell is my provisional pick but I will have a look back.

Sanxion, how has CSL enticed the town to allow him to survive, especially considering that he has hardly posted, and is infact, active lurking? Apart from this, you say he is scummy because he voted Don, seven players voted Don, do you find them suspicious too? Lastly, he has been lurking. I am sceptical about your first two points and would wish for you to explain them in further detail. Considering all this, you seemed very fast to change your vote to me when I made one valid point that you didn't understand at first, and now you fall back on CSL. Is there a reason that you seem to be so fickle when it comes to your vote?

Miyu, I forgot to answer a point of yours in my last post. My suspicion of Don wasn't relative to prods, it is just the way I wrote that. My first point was for more prods and more activity, my second point was my attack on Don. As a connective of these sentences, I just said otherwise. I thought that would have been quite clear, did you really think that I would rate my suspicions relative to the number of prods given?

[Octupis]

@ Octupis. My point was that it seemed to me that you were voting for Don for being Anti-town as well as for advocating the lynch of Lowell, with the reason that he was an easy lynch (because of anti-town behavior). Do you see the inconsistency there, which could borderline on hypocrisy? Not to mention the false reasoning, and I don't believe Don was talking about Lowell's behavior in this game, rather previous games.

You are mistaken in the fact that I am advocating Lowell's lynch now because he would be an easy lynch. I am advocating Lowell's lynch now because that is what my gut is telling me, from the short stint of activity and then prolonged absence (despite him having bookmarked the thread now). There is no inconsistancy becuase Don (for the sake of argument) advocated Lowell's lynch rather than replacement, because it would be easy. I am advocating Lowell's lynch because I have a gut feeling that he is scum. The two are different.

@ Octupis.To me it looks related. If more prods were going out, that would mean more people would show up, and you could suspect other people. If the prods didn't produce more people, you would be suspecting Don.

Well of course, if you think it is related, then it must be (plus, didn't quote the entire post). In all seriousness, it is just the way I write. Why did you even bother asking me about it if you were just going to form your own opinion anyway?

My reason for voting you was misrepresentation, but when that is cleared up, you are less scummy than CSL again, so I returned my vote. (I had intended to do that earlier but...)

You didn't answer my questions.

[Octupis]

@oct- I sorta feel like I remember a post in which you complained that the case against you was based on gut. I could be wrong. Either way your last post looks like you're just trying to cover your ass.

I don't think I have made any such post, in fact I am candid about the fact that certain acspects of chau's case are correct (but not neccesarily indicitive of scum). In my last post, I was replying to a quesion that was asked of my by Miyu, I was defending myself against accusation made against me, if you want to call that covering my ass, then be my guest. Besides, is this all you have to say? As Ythan pointed out, you have't caught up at all, you just made some inane comment about a recent post. Are you going to continue to coast through this game, or are you actually going to play?

[Octupis]

Do you see the inconsistency there? Apparently not. The inconsistency is that you were voting for Don because of anti-town behavior & because he wanted to 'lynch lowell for being an easy lynch (for anti-town behavior).

I see what you are saying, sorry for wasting your time. It does look stupid because I was voting for someone because he was voting for somone, for seemingly the same reason, but I think the thing that sets us apart is the fact that Don wanted Lowell's

easy

lynch, which I find incredibly suspicious. As I have alluded to before, I don't know the mechanics of the game in any great detail, but it would seem to me that easy lynches allow for Don, in this case, not to do much scumhunting, because Lowelll would be easily lynched and the day would end without much informatin or discussion had. I wasn't doing this though, I was participating and trying my best to find scum. I think the distinction lies in the fact that I was voting for Don based on what I thought was evidence to suggest he was scum, while Don was voting for Lowell based solely on his absense and the fact that his lynch would be quite easy.

Aw yes Miyu is here. zlet's lynch Xite!

Why Xite?

Heh. We've clearly never met.

That's it then? Is this all you are going to do?

[Octupis]

I think the distinction lies in the fact that I was voting for Don based on what I thought was evidence to suggest he was scum, while Don was voting for Lowell based solely on his absense and the fact that his lynch would be quite easy.

The larger distinction is that Don never voted for Lowell. Nor did Don ever advocate the lynching of Lowell for being an easy target. He was saying - I believe from a meta standpoint - that Lowell can be an easy target because he exhibits anti-town behavior. I also think that Don was advocating that Lowell be given a chance to show up before replacement, I believe he posted something about it.

You are right, Don never did vote for Lowell. I am getting confused with all this. I presumed that Don was advocating Lowell's easy lynch because he was saying that Ythan should support Lowell's lynch because there was a chance that Lowell was scum. Obviously it is statistically more likely that Lowell is town so for Don to still push this case on Ythan, I presumed that that was what Don wanted. I am quickly learning not to presume things in this game though. Working on this foolish presumption, I then had grounds to suspect Don for advocating Lowell's easy lynch, which I saw as anti-town. I see your point, but I hope you see what I was thinking when you take into consideration the presumptions that I foolishly made. I will learn not to do this again.

I did forget that Xite is replacing out. Perhaps another for the moment then, at least until we see a replacement.

Who is the other person who you suspect?

Sanxion, why have you gone all quiet?

[Octupis]

What do you mean

the

other person?

Your post gave me the impression that there was only one other person who you had in mind to lynch (aside from Xite).

[Octupis]

I'll comment on san's omgus outburst in a bit.

You haven't yet. Why not? Post 373.

As I said, my one reservation. I don't really know role-tells. I can't tell whether a player is acting like a particular role or not.

Have you considered that the same incident could well be interpreted as him trying to provoke one of the real masons to claim? I see your point about him maybe trying to instigate a mason fakeclaim but I think it is a bit far fetched.

In regards to CSL's possible lynch, I think it is a good idea. Although he hasn't been very active (which is a disadvantage in a way because it means there are very few connections we can make if he flips scum), the stint of activity that he did indulge us in, could potentally be quite telling. The masons are quite an important part of this game and from reading that page or so again, I somehow can't see him being a mason himself. Apart from that, there is the point that Sanxion raised about him asking to be kept on until Day 3, which I see as suspicious (because if he is scum it obviously helps him to keep a low profile today but it also heightens the chances of a town lynch). Lastly, his disregard for the game and his blatant unwillingness to post anything of merit (despite being around and reading the thread) leads me to think that he is scum.

Vote CSL

As far as I can tell, the deadline ends here at 1pm tomorrow afternoon. It is now 8pm, which gives us roughly about 17 hours left.

[Octupis]

Have you considered that the same incident could well be interpreted as him trying to provoke one of the real masons to claim? I see your point about him maybe trying to instigate a mason fakeclaim but I think it is a bit far fetched.

Why would it be far fetched?

I know the stats and all that, but I think that considering CSL's behaviour and what has gone on in the game, that he is more likely to be scum, and to my mind, Ythan's worry is a tad far fetched. It is just my opinion on the matter. When I read the mason discussion again I just can't see him being a mason somehow.

[Octupis]

Second: Octupis is scum. In his Post 371 he defends CSL from Sanxion's case by dismissing it rather than proving it wrong, especially seeing as it was one of the better cases floating around at the time. Also, it takes him until Post 448 to place his first vote since his one on don early in D1, voting CSL because of the deadline. Not only does that look like scum trying to lay low, but also like a last-minute bussing attempt.

Okay, in post post 259, I told chau that my top two suspects were Sanxion and CSL. In post 371, I was asking Sanxion about his suspicions of CSL, and how those correlate to his thoughts on other players who seem to be exhibiting similar behaviour. I was playing devil's advocate because while I was scrutinizing the case on CSL, I still suspected him. It's called scumhunting. Alas, my attempts didn't bear much fruit because Sanxion never did explain how he knew CSL's behaviour meant he was scum, yet when others do that, it isn't suspicious at all. In regards to your second point, if I had wanted to bus someone whom I had publicly suspected for the entire day, don't you think I would have been more forthright with my convictions and actually bussed him? Also, I think it is unfair to say that I have been laying low, I have been doing my best to post regularly in this game, and have suitably received a fair amount of attention for it too. Besides, is there anyone else that you are suspecting or is it just me and Ythan?

Out? You fool, what would scum possibly gain from outing the last mason, now only useful in his ability to be

confirmed as town?

Bolded is why a mason is useful, especially later in the game. Like I said, lynch please.

I appreciate that a mason becomes more useful as there are fewer and fewer players in the game, but the chances of a mason surviving that long also decrease with every day and night. Considering on the only two nights we have had, there have been two mason deaths, don't you think the mason should claim now while he or she is still alive and actually useful? What do the rest of you think on this subject?

[Octupis]

Saying something and meaning it are two different things.

How do you know I didn't mean it? Just because I didn't vote for him immediately? Read the game and you'll notice that I am a naturally tentative and careful player who doesn't go around making rash accusations and throwing my vote around.

Well, you never displayed it besides saying it offhand.

So? Whats your point?

Publicly suspected is bs, and I have linked to posts where you publicly DEFENDED CSL yesterday. Once deadline loomed and you realize you couldn't dig your partner out of his hole, you switched your vote.

Please quote examples of when I defended CSL. You just have to read the thread to see where I have attacked him.

What you've been doing is active lurking: posting a lot but saying little. Most of your posts have been vague synopsis of players without any conclusions.

I think that active lurking is a bit unfair, but you are welcome to your opinions.

Trying to throw me off you and your scumbuddy, eh? Sorry, not working. To answer your question: No, you two are the last two scum, so I'll just suspect you for now on.

Not at all, some of the points you made about Ythan look quite interesting. But seriously, how can you be so adamant that me and Ythan, or any two players (for hypothetical arguments sake) are the remaining scum?

[Octupis]

If you really suspected him, you would have been more vocal about it, I think.

Why are you making presumptions about my playstyle? Just because you are vocal, doesn't mean that everybody else is.

If you go back and read my initial post today, you will find that I linked to an examplehere.

I have explained myself on this, please find an actual example of me defending CSL.

vote octopis

, though I dont' understand knotted's certainty.

You seem fairly certain yourself though.

First, the asking the last mason to claim, to me, is beyond indefensible as a strategy. In general I don't think "proposing a horrible plan" is scummy (just horrible), but in this case I think he may have been trying to suck out the last mason before anyone had time to say "uh, wait a minute, that's dumb." But to be clear, it is dumb for the last mason to claim. Don't.

Quote the passage where I asked for the last mason to claim. I was asking others what they thought on the subject because I am uncertain as to the best approach. It seems now though that it is unaminiously thought that the mason claiming is a bad idea for whatever reason. That's fine. I am not advocating that the last mason should claim, I just want to know more about why AKR has said what he has said. His intolerane of actual discussion seems to be prohibiting it at the moment though.

Second, the NK kill made me look back at the little debate that broke out over Xite's claim/not claim of mason. I remember feeling vaguely uneasy at how oct

twice

tried to draw me into a discussion about it. In hindsight he's focused as much on Xite as he is on finding scum, and I can't otherwise see a reason why scott would be the target unless someone thought he was a mason.

I am tired of defending myself against bullshit. Read the thread before you post again. You said that the whole mason softclaim thing was a few pages too late. I asked you why, so you replied with a confusing answer, so I asked you again. I didn't mention anything about Xite and I haven't focused on Xite any more than I have the rest of you. If it is not too much trouble, would you mind explaining what you meant when I asked you those questions. This is what I'm talking about if you choose to ignore me again: post 317 and post 364.

Third, oct's style still bugs me. He asks weird questions that are as often as not meta questions, and just genearlly gives me a bad vibe.

I agree with knotted that this is the place to start.

Sorry I bug you, this is just the way I play. Also, AKR hasn't suggested that we start with my lynch, he has suggested to lynch Ythan first, which he made abundandtly clear. Are you even reading the thread?

[Octupis]

On Octopus(@rope): Okay, Rope you've given a pretty interesting assault with a running theory of an Octopus-Ythan link. You also seemed more inclined to vote Ythan over Octopus because he's more annoying, right? I don't understand though because there is clearly not enough information on Ythan in contrast to Octopus. Furthermore, one (or both, I guess? I'm not certain yet since someone else may be scum) of them could be town and the scum (one? both?) are lurking.

Sanxion, I'm not lurking, I posted before I went to sleep last night, I have been decorating today, and I'm posting now.

I can see the connection between Ythan and CSL. But I also see a strong link between Oct/Lowell. I'm thinking given the two possible teams Oct is the better lynch for today.

Could you explain why you think it could be me and Lowell who are scum?

Second: Octupis is scum. In his Post 371 he defends CSL from Sanxion's case by dismissing it rather than proving it wrong, especially seeing as it was one of the better cases floating around at the time. Also, it takes him until Post 448 to place his first vote since his one on don early in D1, voting CSL because of the deadline. Not only does that look like scum trying to lay low, but also like a last-minute bussing attempt.

Okay, this case is shit. I don't want you to just accuse me of being scum and use that as an excuse to brush my comments under the carpet. Your first point is invalid because I was calling out Sanxion about being inconistent. He quite rightly suspected CSL for lurking, but Sanxion didn't mention anything about the other players who were lurking, Zero and Smash. I was not defending CSL at all, I was scumhunting Sanxion. On your second point, it's bullshit again, because when asked, I had stated my main suspects were Sanxion and CSL, so it wasn't last minute bussing because I had publicly attacked him earlier in the game. If you think I'm laying low, you are mistaken, I would say I have been the most attacked and suspected player so far that hasn't been lynched, so I must have been doing something. And just because I don't throw my vote around, doesn't mean I'm laying low. Like you.

Also AKR, why is it that you have double standards? You'll answer Miyu's questions, but you ignore mine. I'm talking about in these posts: post 480 and post 505. We both asked pretty much the same questions, yet you didn't answer mind, but you were willing to oblige Miyu's request. I would like to hear you answer, but it seems to me that you are tunneling me and Ythan (although you've backed off Ythan now Sanxion made an issue of it, and a bandwagon has started on me) and you don't want to answer my questions because you case might fall apart.

Lowell, please don't ignore the questions that I have asked of you again.

In conclusion, I'm at L-2 now, so I won't claim just yet, but I am concious of the bandwagon continuing at it's current pace. For possibly the first time in this game, I agree with Sanxion when he says:

Slow and steady so they say.

[Octupis]

Also Oct, how did I not answer your questions?

In post 479, I asked you who else you suspected, if anyone. You replied in post 480; the problem I have is the way you brushed my question under the carpet just because you think I'm scum. However, when Miyu asks you, you happily oblige. I was just wondering about the apparent double standard.

@oct- I dont' know what "questions" I'm ignoring, but regarding your subtle pushes to further discuss Xite's did he/didn't he softclaim, I'm referring to your ISO posts 11 and 12, where you twice try to lead me into talking about something that was CLEARLY anti-town to discuss.

Those are exactly the questions I want asking. They are not anti town, because my question didn't relate to outing any masons. You have just twisted my words to incriminate me. You said that the discussion was a few pages too late, so I asked you why this was. This has nothing to do with the details of the softclaiming. You then replied that the discussion didn't matter, yet you had already said that it was too late, my second question was investigating the contradiction there. Again, this has nothing to do with Xite's softclaim.

[Octupis]

Very much disagree. This is evidence of you trying to look innocent while having others do your work for you. You want the discussion about Xite to continue after others have tried to drop it, but you want it to look innocent.

Also, people need to stop listening to Ythan.

What work? I'm not asking you about masons or softclaiming or Xite. I don't want any information about that. I am asking you why you said the discussion was too late, and then when pressed, said it needn't of happened. That is all. Besides, your persistance in twisting my words and not answering my legitimate questions is only making you seem scummier.

What? I didn't say anything about you lurking.

Good, I must have misunderstood what you'd said.

In post 479, I asked you who else you suspected, if anyone. You replied in post 480; the problem I have is the way you brushed my question under the carpet just because you think I'm scum. However, when Miyu asks you, you happily oblige. I was just wondering about the apparent double standard.

Because, at the time you asked, I really hadn't considered it.

I see, that's fine, but what perplexes me is why you said what you said. Your bullish reply almost makes me think that you were trying to suppress me questions to aid you in your case, to make me look as if I'm not doing anything.

[Octupis]

I still think that there is a more compelling case on Oct than there is on Lowell, especially given Oct's earlier play this day.

What do you mean? As far as I can tell, today I have shown your case on me to be complete rubbish and have been asking questions of you and Lowell, but no to real avail because I'm being ignored or being patronized with weak answers. By the way, if this isn't deflecting attention off of Lowell and onto me, then I don't know what is. Why is that? Also, why have you not contributed as much in the last two pages (when Lowell came relatively close to being lynched)?

I've been decorating/exhausted over the last few days, however I will post in the morning with my thoughts on the game.

[Octupis]

Okay, here goes...

In post 511, AKR considers the fact that Zero noticed a flaw in his case on me, means that we are a scum team, and that Ythan is now town. The interesting part of this, is that Zero didn't defend me because the accusation upon me in the first place was rubbish. Had Zero defended me against a valid accusation, I would understand your suspicions of myself and Zero being a scum team. He just pointed out a flaw in your case against me, he didn't defend me, just like I wasn't defending CSL when I asked Sanxion why he only found CSL scummy for an offence that was being committed by various other players. Overall I think AKR's play today has been very suspect, first he claims to have found the scum team as me and Ythan, then it was me and Zero, but when mention of me and Lowell arises, he hardly says anything for two pages. You seem to me to be desperate for a lynch, whoever it is, you don't have any faith in your convictions (probably because you cases are fairly weak), and you are opportunistic, apart from when it comes to Lowell. Plus, the connections between yourself and Lowell are building up.

Secondly, I am incredibly suspicious of Lowell. As chau has pointed out, this post is very damning indeed (because today, Lowell is voting for me instead of chau). Besides from that, the fact that Lowell refuses to answer questions, and when he does acknowledge them, he repeats the same redundant rubbish, trying to frame me. This post is also incredibly suspect, because he states that AKR and CSL are town. Lastly, the vote count:

The Best Thing Since Sliced Vote Count:

Octupis (2): Lowell, AKnottedRope

With 8 Alive it's 5 to lynch.

Lowell and AKR are voting for the same person (admittedly it is me), but this behaviour makes me seriously consider these two as scum. I'll look back and see if there are any connections between these two, and CSL (aside from the one I pointed out). Meanwhile, I think it is best is Lowell claims.

By the way, if this isn't deflecting attention off of Lowell and onto me, then I don't know what is. Why is that?

Because I think you have a better chance of being scum than Lowell does. I never really understood the Lowell case, but that could just be me.

What a coincidence.

[Octupis]

You and zero as a team is a possibility I'm considering. Ythan is also not, by any means, town. He's my number two pick for scum at the moment.

At the beginning of the day, you were so adamant that it was me and Ythan. Now you're considering me and Zero, but Ythan is scummy too. I would maintain my accusation of opportunism and desperateness in regards to a lynch because you were so sure at the beginning of the day, and now you're changing your mind.

Because I'm not getting a scum read from him, just anti-town. This differs from you, ythan, and zero as I have gotten good scum reads from the three of you.

Fine, I don't see how you haven't noticed Lowell as being scummy, but never mind.

I'm not desperate for a lynch, I just want to lynch you because I think you're scum. I do have faith in my convictions because I'm still voting you and pushing for your lynch. If I were opportunistic, I would be on the lowell wagon.

Also, using connections with me and a living player proves nothing. If lowell flips scum, then sue me.

I meant opportunistic in the sense of you first being so adamant of myself and Ythan being scum, and then you jump to myself and Zero. You may have faith in your convictions when it comes to me, but you can't seem to make up your mind about who else is in the scum team with me.

What a coincidence.

That I don't understand the case on him? Wow :eyeroll:

It is obvious though, and you are the only one who doesn't see it. I don't think that is a coincidence, especially when you consider the links that I have presented that would imply you and Lowell being scum.

---

Lowell, you're at L-1, if you are not going to claim, I am willing to hammer, so I suggest you claim.

[Octupis]

Well done, geniuses.

I am the last

mason

. I tried to breadcrumb this a little and thought I might die last night for it, but whatever. We're doomed.

I'm not buying it; for the entire game you've defended AKR and CSL, while attacking Xite. You have also not softclaimed at all, I just had a look back at your posts and I couldn't find a single shred of a soft claim, at one point you even stated that you hadn't softclaimed and that if you were going to, that we'd know it. Today, after saying that you would vote chau if CSL flipped scum, you jump on my bandwagon instead, why?; because AKR made a case on me (which was complete rubbish). You haven't hardly contributed anything of substance, you fail to answer questions, you make outlandish claims, often without reasoning to back up a case, and your play has been completely anti town for the entire game.

Vote Lowell

If you flip mason then I will gladly be lynched tomorrow, but I am sure you are scum, and AKR is your partner. The evidence is building up now. I suspect this hammer will incriminate me, and that I will be the prinicple lynch candidate for tomorrow, but whatever. I'll defend myself then (if I survive that is).

[Octupis]

I'm going to be V/LA until tomorrow. I'm decorating today, and out this evening. Sorry about this, I'll post tomorrow.

[Octupis]

AKnottedRope asked for a replacement.

Isn't he going to be back in a few days? If a replacement can't be found, I wouldn't mind waiting for him. I have some questions.

Anyway, I claim mason. I haven't really planned any formal or deliberate softclaims that can prove my innocence, because my game isn't that sophisticated, and I've had trouble just surviving the pressure that I have endured, let alone incorporating subtle, yet substantial softclaims. However, certain aspects of my behaviour point towards my claim being true. For example:

• In post 254, I asked about whether or not the masons should claim because I didn't know and I was concerned about doing the wrong thing for the town, and giving the mafia the advantage.
  
  
  
• Here, I ask for a second time, about whether or not the masons should claim, because I appreciate the importance of the masons in this setup, and as I say in the post, I'm not familiar with the mechanics of the game.
  
  
  
• In post 479, I ask again about mason protocol for that particular day, because I'm unsure.
  
  
  
• This quote illustrates my point well (post 485):
  

  First, the asking the last mason to claim, to me, is beyond indefensible as a strategy. In general I don't think "proposing a horrible plan" is scummy (just horrible), but in this case I think he may have been trying to suck out the last mason before anyone had time to say "uh, wait a minute, that's dumb." But to be clear, it is dumb for the last mason to claim. Don't.

  Quote the passage where I asked for the last mason to claim. I was asking others what they thought on the subject because I am uncertain as to the best approach. It seems now though that it is unaminiously thought that the mason claiming is a bad idea for whatever reason. That's fine. I am not advocating that the last mason should claim, I just want to know more about why AKR has said what he has said. His intolerane of actual discussion seems to be prohibiting it at the moment though.

However, the most conclusive evidence is my uncharacteristic confidence in regards to Lowell's scumminess (here). I have made a point of my indecisiveness in this game, yet I was so sure that Lowell was scum because he claimed mason, so I knew he scum. I would have given everyone else a chance to comment on his claim, but I knew it was false, and I didn't want him getting off the hook, in case he was bluffing, and we didn't lynch because of that.

---

I have a case to make on AKR, which has kinda been made by Zero already, but I'll clarify my case that I started yesterday, but it's back to the decorating for now. Sorry about the delay with my claiming. I'll check back tonight.

[Octupis]

Okay, I was suspicious of AKR yesterday for various reasons. First, that he was so aggressive in his pursuit of myself anf Ythan as the scum, and then, it was me and Zero. It seemed to me like he was desperate for a lynch, whoever it was. However, when Lowell started coming under scrutiny, AKR suddenly didn't understand the case on him and still wanted me lynched. Couple this with the fact that both Lowell and AKR were the only people voting for me (apart from a small stint by chau), I was suspicious of him. Then there was this post, where Lowell said that AKR and CSL were town, while myself and chau are scum. Since Lowell and CSL have flipped scum, I became more sure. In regards to your point about Lowell framing AKR, chau, I can see it but think it is unlikely because the buddying was as far back as page 10, and they did both bandwagon me yesterday.

Today, I am also beginning to suspect Zero too. this post didn't make sense to me, because it described primarily the scummy actions of Lowell, and then briefly said that AKR was connected to him, and was therefore scummy. First, why document the scummy actions of a dead player, and secondly, why go to all that trouble to then link AKR with it, wouldn't it make more sense to mention the links, but also mention why AKR is scummy, in his own right? Plus, considering I made the basic point behind Zero's case yesterday, I wondered if it was perhaps a tad opportunistic for Zero to repeat it and then vote (perhaps to try and start a wagon, with a confirmed townie on it).

Post 21 people commentary - Ythan scummy (kinda), CSL scummy, Oct town, Chau town, Xite town, AKR no comment

I couldn't get a read on AKR. He seemed scummy, but at the same time I couldn't quite put my finger on anything. I can now, as explained by my case on him.

How come you can see it now, and you couldn't quite see it before?

chau, you said that you were suspicious of Zero and Ythan. Could you post similar reasoning for your suspicions of Ythan please.

[Octupis]

Huh? What does Octi have to do with this?

Nothing. It was Octi who hopped on CSLs wagon at the last minute, not AKR. I was correcting myself.

Your right, but why did you need to mention this? This post is attacking AKR and Lowell, so if the mistake was unintentional, why did you need to mention my actions? It's not relevant, unless the mistake wasn't unintentional.

This post actually explains my thoughts pretty well, and I made my own post here explaining my thoughts on the matter. I noticed I didn't connect them nearly as thouroughly as I thought I had. I was under the impression that I made this post, which you are reading.

This did perplex me a little because I had proclaimed my suspicion for AKR yesterday, yet you didn't really acknowledge or comment on it then. Yet today you seem to be pushing it quite hard. I asked you about this here, but you mustn't have noticed it?

Also, when did you guys start to think that I might have been the mason. Because I thought that it would be obvious after I promptly lynched Lowell after he claimed, which is why I was confused about Miyu's death, and rather surprised (and admittedly a tad excited too) about my survival. However, I agree with chau here, if AKR knew that I was the mason because of me killing Lowell, then he would have almost certainly killed me at night, because him leading the lynch on me the following day would look incredibly bad, and I'm confirmed anyway. The only logical thing to assume is that the scum didn't figure out that I was the last mason.

Well, I'm the mason. In our QT, on the night before Scott died, he said that he was fairly sure that the scum were Lowell-CSL-Sanxion. He asked me to follow up on this:

(

Sanxion-

)356 reads exactly like Lowell's post in terms of CSL (doesn't want to vote him but will at deadline) I'm really liking the idea of a CSL-Lowell-Sanxion scum team after this.

387 For someone who wasn't sure about CSL one page ago, you have certainly changed your opinion especially with the "How can you not find him scummy?" comment.

I was wondering if you could elaborate further Sanxion. I do think it is fairly suspicious that you should want to unvote CSL because you were unsure about him, to give Smash a chance to come back and incriminate himself, with bandwagoning CSL a backup plan to lynching town. I might be looking to much into this (on behalf of Scott) but CSL flipped scum, while Smash/Miyu flipped town. Especially as in the second quoted post, you say "How can you not find him scummy?".

You can virtually accuse anyone of buddying&bussing by pointing out some minute connection between the two. I just don't see the connection from AKR's perspective even that strong. I myself recalled saying that CSL was anti-town, not scummy, and saying that I didn't understand the case on him. But I'm not scum. And I was pretty damn sure that Lowell was scum. But does that make me their scum buddy? No.

I don't quite agree with this, because using this logic, you could nullify the scumminess of any action, providing a town player has done the same thing, which is of course rather silly. We have town players who are just scummy (like me).

To be fair, I'm not 100% sure AKR is town. There are certain points about him I can agree with, but the main point you guys seem to be pushing is just something I don't see really happening. Of course I've been wrong before (CSL anyone)? But given how the game has played out, I have other candidates who have both stronger links AND other signs to show that they are scum, so I would rather have them lynched.

Can we hear about these other cases? You've been arguing about the AKR case, but he is not going to be lynched anytime soon so you could explain your other suspicions.

However, it is too soon to say "if one isn't scum, then the other is."

I would like people to answer whether or not they agree with this statement (with full sentence so I don't get confused) and maybe something resembling a reason for it. Also, I want people to explain what they think about AKR's play. Even if he's not here, creating some discussion would be beneficial since (as Ythan warned) asking for a day to continue is dangerous with so little momentum. I think that this may help get insight into how everyone's thinking, thus reveal scum.

I disagree with this statement. I'm no where near as sure as I need to be to agree with this statement. I must admit, I was sure that AKR was scum coming into this day (rather foolishly perhaps), but I don't want to lose, and having read chau's and Zero's argument, I am not so sure anymore. Either way I'd like to hear from Ythan certainly.

Octopus, Ythan, CSL, AKR (maybe?) what do you think?

CSL is dead.

[Octupis]

Sanxion, I'm kinda satisfied with your answer. I can see your reasoning up until you address post 387. The reasons you stated in your last post don't seem like the sort of concrete reasons that would lead you to believe that CSL is scum, especially when you've shown a little indecisiveness when coming to conclusions about other players (me for example). Inbetween the posts mentioned, you even voted me after I accused you of fencesitting.

The only reason you came up is because you did what I thought AKR did. Other than that, no, it wasn't relevant. I could have said "someone else". Would that have been any better?

@Octipus You know that Lowell, CSL, and Sanxion all have the same general playing style, right? I'm not saying he's town or scum, I'm just letting you know so you can make a more informed case.

This is posted after, but written before Sanxion wall posted.

I see, so how did you get our actions confused if you were reviewing AKR? If he had jumped late on to CSL's bandwagon, I'm sure it would of featured in your case. Also, I came to realise that early in the game, but I don't think it is true of Sanxion any longer (in this game anyway), he has been contributing well. He was lurking at the start for one reason or another but I think he's been playing well since.

[Octupis]

The only logical thing to assume is that the scum didn't figure out that I was the last mason.

Or they didn't think it all the way through and thought this:

Because they could reasonably make Oct look suspicious enough to lynch? Your answer was in the quote. They aren't going to NK someone under suspicion, especially if townies like you already believe it.

Because Zero posted that, I have an even stronger belief that he's scum. Recall at the beginning of this day he advocated that the mason wait until lylo to claim? Yep.

I'm getting the impression from you answer that you think that I think that Zero might be town, but that is not the case, I don't think Zero is town, yet I am not as sure that he is scum as everybody seems to be.

Which might be why I tried to be more assertive as well in stating that CSL is scum. Reading a small amount and then looking into CSL to see if he is likely scum or (as I said) Smash was pushing a case on a weak townie lead to it, and the other things going on could have contributed to my suddenly strong stance. Your statement is quite true and does make an exception to my general slow, contemplative style, but that's all I could suggest.

Do note, however, that the fencesitting issue does demonstrate another instance (outside of CSL) where when I think I am right I tend to go for it. Granted, I was wrong about your motives (realized then but obvious now), but being slow and considering your motives would not have put pressure on you (to defend your statement) and yield a quick, necessary resolution to that before resuming the need to decide on the whole CSL-Smash issue. (I'm not sure if you wanted any particular answer here, but this are my thoughts on the statement.)

I suppose that I will just have to take your word for the fact that in the aforementioned instances, you broke away from your playstyle and took a stronger stance because you thought it necessary, or rather that you were right. Of course it is difficult at this stage for me to take your word completely because you could be scum, and the change in playstyle might have been down to you being privy to information that the rest of is were not.

Also, I came to realise that early in the game, but I don't think it is true of Sanxion any longer (in this game anyway), he has been contributing well. He was lurking at the start for one reason or another but I think he's been playing well since.

I am confused by (what I think is) a reference error. who is "he?" And could you just generally re-write (with other wording) what you are saying here?

Sorry about that, I was talking about you Sanxion. I apologize profusely if I have got it wrong, I looked at your profile to try and see but it didn't really help. Reworded:

Also, I came to realise that early in the game, but I don't think it is true of Sanxion any longer (in this game anyway), Sanxion has been contributing well. Sanxion was lurking at the start for one reason or another but I think Sanxion's been playing well since.

[Octupis]

The only logical thing to assume is that the scum didn't figure out that I was the last mason.

Or they didn't think it all the way through and thought this:

Because they could reasonably make Oct look suspicious enough to lynch? Your answer was in the quote. They aren't going to NK someone under suspicion, especially if townies like you already believe it.

Because Zero posted that, I have an even stronger belief that he's scum. Recall at the beginning of this day he advocated that the mason wait until lylo to claim? Yep.

I have re-read a little and have come to the conclusion that the above quote is rather damning for Zero. I find it quite extraordinary that someone would not have worked out my role after I hammered Lowell, but it seems to have happened. While there isn't anything that would directly suggest Zero as being scum just from this instance, the fact that he advocated for me to claim when it would be basically useless is very damning.

I'm prepared to hammer zero after he posts again in response to my questions if no one objects.

Why puss out and wait till I comment if you already have your mind made up?

I can see you point Zero, if AKR is going to hammer anyway, but didn't you say that you were prepared to be lynched for the sake of the town, and now you're not even willing to answer a few questions. This makes me think that your attempt at the selfless martyr was just WIFOM, and a last gamble of a mafioso that was staring death in the face, so to speak.

Besides, I have seen enough discussion today to make me feel that I would prefer for the ambiguity over Zero's role to be cleared one way or another before we reach lylo; if Zero's town then we still have lylo and a bit more information, if Zero's scum then we've won. I'm willing to hammer too.

I'm going to be V/LA for the next two days. Sorry. I'll definitely be back though.

Noted.

[Octupis]

Thanks Mod.

No problem and thanks for playing!