Open 254 ~ Trust Issues (FvEvE) Game Ends

[Uite]

Hi to the people I've met before; Kunkstar7, quadz08, and singersigner! Greetings to the other players as well.

I'm reading through the thread now, and I'll post some more detailed stuff when I'm finished. For now I have a few things to say though:

1. What is your time zone?
2. How much activity can we expect from you?
3. What is your favorite role?
4. Chaos or order?

1. I'm in the Netherlands, so that's CEST, or UTC+2 right now.
2. I average about two posts per game per day. Sometimes more, sometimes less.
3. Doctor, though I haven't played it on this site yet.
4. Order, definitely.

@Mod:

I have two questions about the rules. First, and this one is fairly minor and the asnwer is probably obvious, but Night Phase rule 3 states that Mafia can't kill their buddies at night; does this also apply to Werewolves? Second, what are the rules for what happens at deadline? You've stated that I'm the lynch if the deadline were right now, but exactly why is that?

Also, I'll unvote for now, until I'm up to speed and have some analysis to go on.
UNVOTE: quadz08

[Uite]

All right! Based on my read through, I have a few following questions/comments. Some of the questions have already been asked by other players, but I really want to see them answered.

a2rudeboy:

Not really much to say, though you could be more active. You say you're in eight games, and on V/LA. How long will your V/LA last, and why are you in so many games if you don't have the time to play?

Antihero:

WTF is up with posts #43 and #45? You've kept your vote on singer ever since, but what actually makes you think she is scum? Why were you defending Equinox? Why did you wait so long to question Lowell here?

kunkstar7:

You seem to have a very strong scumread on Zed, so why aren't you voting her?

Lowell:

You say you're voting singer because of gut. You've also called Zed outright scum here. Why is it more important for you to vote someone you have only a gut read on, instead of someone you have a definite case on? Combined with your RVS vote, it looks like awkwardly executed distancing to me.

Nexus:

You say you wanted to vote for Equinox because she had the most amount of votes, but you accidentally voted Nobody Special instead. Both were at two when you first voted,

Pomegranate:

You haven't contributed much, in addition to being V/LA a lot of the time. You must have more to share, so why don't you?

quadz08:

Why were you so eager to go after Equinox for rolefishing? How is it rolefishing in a game without special roles? Why is the singer/Equinox thing mostly a null-tell, when you attacked her over basically the same thing?

Sevei:

What's with all the votehopping? Seriously, six out of your nine posts contain a change of vote, and you've voted for practically half the playerlist so far.

singersigner:

I get the feeling your discussion with Equinox was pretty much unjustified. The same with your accusation of Antihero misrepping you with the order of his quotes. Many of your other posts are useless fluff. Since your actual helpful contributions are extremely minimal, I'm going to accuse you of active lurking. You're oddly protective of Equinox here, why is that? Two votes out of seven required to lynch isn't that many.

springlullaby:

You've only made one decent post so far. Why is that? Also, why are you voting for Pomegranate without a reason given, while you're simultaneously FoSing two other players?

Zed:

Why did you wait so long to vote Lowell? So said you kept forgetting, but I don't think that's something you miss so easily, so why do you think you forgot repeatedly?

Mod:

I know I'm barely dodging a prod myself as it is, but a2rudeboy, Lowell and Sevei are up for one.

I'm not sure who to vote just yet, there are several good candidates in my opinion. I think I'll wait for the answers to my questions first.

A general note, the way singer and antihero edited their responses into the other's quotes makes it hard to read, and is kinda confusing. Don't do that. This goes for everyone, by the way.

To our absent players, I'd like to say the following: if you can't keep up with the game, please replace out. Your non-contributions are hurting the game. To any of you who are simply lurking: post more!

[Uite]

Each person I have voted for had done something I think is scummy. A vote tends to get people's attention when they are asked something, so when I questioned them, I also voted, partly to gauge reactions.

Fair enough, but I also think that if you're really going for the pressure angle, your vote needs to stick a bit more, or people will not pay that much attention to a vote coming from you.

I've asked this already. I'm also waiting for an answer.

I know you asked, look at the top of my post. I just think getting an answer is important enough to ask again.

Why were you so eager to go after Equinox for rolefishing? See second question
How is it rolefishing in a game without special roles? ... That's actually a really good question. I hadn't thought about it that way.

Those aren't answers. Why were you so eager to go after Equinox? Why didn't you stop to think about what rolefishing actually is before you did so?

Uite...I originally thought there were three votes on him, and since it was RVS, I didn't need to put a forth. That statement alone was made to say that if I felt comfortable putting a random vote on someone with that many votes at the time, it would've been him, for the random reason of her not answering her own questions.

Disregarding your miscount, why do you feel four votes is too much for RVS?

I didn't make a big deal out of Equinox not answering her own questions until she got *I felt* unreasonably defensive over it.

Do you think her defensiveness was in line with your agression? Why/why not?

What do you want to know about them?

I want to know why you posted it like you did, and what exactly you were trying to say. You kinda explained #45, but #43 is still a bit of a mystery to me.

I thought Pom's reation to his post would elicit a response, but since about a page and a half went by after that post, I wanted to make sure it wasn't missed.

Makes sense, but even then you didn't give him that much time to respond. Still, that reminds me that he hasn't actually answered your question.

@Lowell:

What were your reasons for proclaiming Equinox town and singer scum? Why didn't you explain when asked of you?

[Uite]

Uite- Most of my posts come from my phone. That morning I made my first post (113) while on the bus to the way to school. My next post (123) was after school. I voted Lowell in post 131, after homework and dinner and all the other things I have to do during the day. I must have been busy that day and didn't remember until I could give the game my almost full attention.

Ugh. The perils of mobile posting. Why didn't you explain this when you finally did make the vote?

and can someone tell me what ISO stands for? I feel silly.

ISO can be both a verb and a noun and it refers to reading someone's post in isolation. If you haven't noticed it yet, there's an option to display all posts by user at the bottom of the page. Using this you can look at a single player's posts throughout the thread. This tool is your friend. It helps you get reads and make cases, among other things, both as town and as scum. Use it well.

[Uite]

Well, I mentioned I kept forgetting. I thought that was enough. I remember remebering during the day, but not being able to post because I was in classes.

I like it when people explain their actions, because it prevents, in retrospect, pointless inquiries like these. It's also transparent play to explain yourself, and transparency is pro-town.

[Uite]

@Sevei:

I was just about to post the same thing.

Lynching on plurality is bad, especially if it's only two votes. It gives us hardly any information on the flip, and is thus playing right into the scum's hands. Fellow townies, we need to consolidate our votes! I wanted to wait until after more people had responded to my questions, so I'd have more to go on, but since we're running out of time, I'm going to

VOTE: quadz08

His response was just terrible, and avoidant behaviour like that is plain scummy. I'd suggest people vote likewise, or if they believe quadz is town, make a case and convince people to vote for their top suspect. I want to emphasise that this does not excuse anyone from answering my questions, as I may change my vote if a better target arises.

To everyone who's not posting: play the damn game, or GTFO!

[Uite]

@Lowell:

Why didn't you answer my question?

So if you lynch me, and when CSL tells you I'm town, you'll know who to go for.

Blatant AtE. Scummy.

On a scale of one to ten where everyonw starts at a 5, quadz is about a 7.5. My vote is mostly to try to save myself, because I feel that if a player is innocent they should do whatever they can to stay in the game, most of the time at least.

Self-preserving behaviour like that is really scummy. Why didn't you try putting together a convincing case, instead of voting the player with the most votes?

I was eager to go after Equinox because in my head (due to my non-existent experience with open setups) her question could've been fishing for roles. I didn't think about the implications of a question like that in an open game versus in a closed game, because it didn't occur to me that there could be a difference.

But you do know that in open setups all the roles are known right? And that that's why they're called Open? Considering the setup is crucial in a game like this, I find it very hard to believe you weren't aware of it. Also your "non-existent experience" is a blatant lie, since you're also in another ongoing open game, and that's been going on longer than this one.

Quadz looks to be our best lynch candidate today. Zed is scummy as well, but is also very newbish, so she gets the benefit of the doubt for now.

[Uite]

@Uite- I initially signed up for so many games because i was in a time where i had nothing to do, IRL. Obviously, i got a bit overzealous in this respect. I choose not to replace out of any games, because i have multi-replaced out before, and I'm attempting to force mold myself into a better player. With that being said, I am here, I have read up, and I will be posting. Also, my v/la ended a few days ago, but then I unexpectedly came down with a cold/ had to move. Not ATE, just stating.

If you're trying to learn how to be a better player, wouldn't it make more sense to only play a few games at a time, but get really involved in them, rather than playing at a lowel level in many games?

Yes, I am aware of the setup and the fact that all roles are known. I simply did not think to consider it, because I've never had to before.

Have you never played Newbie games? It's fairly important there as well.

As to the experience thing, I am currently in two Open games: this one, and one other, which started 2 weeks prior to this one. It was still in Day One (or maybe at the very, very beginning of Day 2, I don't remember exactly) when this game started. Saying I have "non-existent experience" might not be technically true, but it might as well be.

You're backtracking and you know it. One day doesn not mean no experience. But since we're talking about an ongoing game, maybe we should just leave it at that.

But it isn't self-preservation, its more like town-preservation. It is more beneficial for the town for an innocent to save themselves then it is for an innocent to let themselve die, usually. Sometimes the townie is just a distraction, and I don't think I'm all that distracting here. So yeah, I'm going to try to save myself.

That's not how it works. There are two scumteams, of two players each. Any one of those can be wiped out at the end of Night 1, which would mean they lose. As a townie being killed is not that bad. Fully eight out of twelve players are town. If one of them dies, there's still plenty of town left to fight the scum. And while a scum lynch is usually preferable to a town lynch, even a mislynch can provide valuable inforamtion to analyse. The only town that can excuse self-preserving behaviour are powerroles, but there are none in this game.

I'd love to vote Lowell, he still bugs me. But hey, if I have to die, I have to die I guess.

I'm very suspicious of Lowell too, but because we are so close to deadline, he's not a good lynch, unless we can get enough players to agree to vote for him. Besides there are four scum. It's not absolutely necessary to vote for your top pick.

Q 1. I feel there's no reason to put a vote on someone you haven't particularly founds scummy yet, when they've already had several votes cast against them.

While I agree with what you're saying, you didn't answer my question. Why is four votes too much in RVS? To get decent info from an RVS wagon, it needs to go a bit further than that, say to L-2.

Q 2. To clarify, is this before or after she had denied answering the questions herself? Is the implication that I was being aggressive about her answering her own questions? If so, no. She had very clearly stated that she had her own reasons for not answering the questions, and I felt her defensiveness came about because she got stuck in a corner once people realized it was kind of scummy to keep refusing after people have asked her to answer. I believe I explained later that I felt her explanation for not answering was valid, but weak at the same time. It was very much gone about in the wrong way.

Answering your own questions last is pretty much SOP, so I don't really think she was being scummy. That would mean that your suspicion was unwarranted, and I think that her defensiveness was a reaction to that. What I wanted to know is if you could see that angle.

An innocent trying to save themselves and get someonr elsr they are suspicious of is helpful to the town.

While there's nothing intrinsically wrong with what you're saying, you're using the wrong approach for the first part, and I'm not sure you're actually doing the second part.

[Uite]

If you do decide to replace out, could you at least answer my question before you're gone?

[Uite]

Gut is fine, but if you have a solid case, why go with gut over the case? Your opinion of Zed didn't seem gut-driven.

[Uite]

Uite...I think answering questions last is ok sometimes, but not when you've put a question out there that's been misconstrued to be a role-fishing question. It just seemed like she was looking for information that she could've used to misrep or look scummy later, while not allowing herself to do the same. It didn't feel right...though I don't like how some of the people reacted to the question either. Off the top of my head, Quadz seemed unreasonably defensive over it.

I don't think it could have been rolefishing in any way, so the initial premise is flawed. I agree that quadz reacted strangely to it, hence my line of questioning to him.

As far as 4 votes being too much for RVS...I don't feel comfortable getting to an L-2 situation, with at least (probably) four different anti-towns here, and only 7 to lynch. Too much allowance for making excuses to get to a quick-lynch. That might not seem like enough for you to hold back (to each their own), but it is for me.

If there's a quicklynch in RVS, that means we've found scum. Getting a scum, possibly two, for the price of a townie isn't so bad.

Yes, that would probably be the more logical thing to do. How relevant to the game at hand is this round of questioning though? That's the one thing I find interesting about your questions to everyone, is that there seems to be a mix of things which comment on the game or are pushing scumhunting forward to an extent, but there also appears to me questions that aren't really helping too much.

I admit that I was trying to find questions for everyone, and not all are directly related to scumhunting. My line of questioning to you is an attempt to help improve the game, by getting you to either be more active or replace out, so it's not exactly useless.

Also. No PRs? We do have three masons.

I'm not counting the masons as powerroles, since masons can't really do anything except confirm each other as Town. While that is pretty powerful, especially when they pool their resources to scumhunt, to me it looks more like a faction allied and beneficial to the town than roles with an actual ability.

[Uite]

Zed has been ejected from the game for playing against her win condition. Looking for a replacement.

I'm going to say that the force-replacement was unfair, because there is currently no rule against what she did, and she didn't get so much as a warning.

Lowell is playing to his meta - i.e. act scummy all day errday. Surprise, surpise. Probably town though.

Interesting. How do you know this? A quick search reveals that you've never played with him before.

Also, why are you voting springlullaby over quadz? A spring lynch probably isn't going to happen, but quadz is plenty scummy, and a lot more likely. You already expressed hope of lynching him today, and votes really help with that.

[Uite]

Quad attempted to find random things Equinox did scummy, and there was no support for this. However Equinox's slot was more patronizing towards Quad than any other slot.
I would write this off as a relationship between the two due to meta, except there is an even greater correlation between Uite and Quad. When Uite questions others he is far more agressive and a lot less patronizing than with others.

You need to rewrite this, because I'm not sure what references what within the sentences, especially in relation to who is patronising to whom. An actual analysis of your findings would be nice as well.

Please explain how you went from "Ooh, Uite is cool" to "IGMEOY: Uite."

I read a game or two with Lowell in it. One he was scum and one he was town, I believe, but while reading both games I noticed his play was very anti-town.
Also I didn't check the votecount when I replaced in, I only saw that I was at L-2.
I still Like Singerscum better than quadscum, but given the deadline, I have no problem voting a 60/40 scum/town read.

Fair enough.

As I've said at least once before, I simply didn't think about it. I've never had to before. I know this isn't an excuse for NOT thinking about it, but it's not a scum-tell, just a stupid-tell.

The fact that you tried to build a case on it does turn it into a scumtell. Town usually doesn't make cases for such flimsy reasons.

For Deadline Extension

I think it's useful to at least have a bigger opportunity for our inactive players to get in here, regardless of whether we actually need the 48 hours.

[Uite]

Ooh Uite is cool was my reaction to seeing your name. You were in some game I read, and were good in it. Don't remember what alignment you were, but you were good.

Someone mentioned in another game that I'd be getting a fanclub soon. It's nice to see that becoming a reality. If it's not too much trouble, could you tell me which game you read? [/shameless egostroking]

I'll do that analysis later tonight. Sleep is calling my name soon.

Just stating your thought pattern would be sufficient, but a full-blown analysis would of course be better. Still, I'd like to know what exactly you were trying to say with the paragraph I quoted.

[Uite]

I keep track of the votes in a spreadsheet, and I've just noticed something odd. Excepting Zed's selfvote, there is NO overlap between the voters for Chesskid and Quadz. The only player who hasn't voted for either is springlullaby, who has kept her vote on Pomegranate the entire time. Now, what's interesting here is that the group voting for Chesskid contains the more suspicious players, while the group voting for Quadz contains the least suspicious players, according to my reads. To me that suggests that scum are trying to force a Chesskid lynch. However, there are more people voting for Chesskid than there are scum, so I'd like to ask the townies voting for him to change their votes to Quadz.

[Uite]

Speaking of springlullaby, has she decided if she's replacing out or not? Either way, she needs to decide and either start posting or replace out.

I sent her a notice Tuesday Morning. She also has until early tomorrow before I search for a replacement anyways.

[Uite]

I don't like this last sentence because it causes a whole lot of WIFOM in the future. You can't possibly think it's ok to "ask those who are town" to switch votes.

I apologise. I was just rhetoric, and for a good cause. I promise I won't consider if people changed their vote or not as a result of this in any further analysis.

@Lowell:

Still didn't answer my question. Contribute, or GTFO!

[Uite]

As far as I can tell, that can only be true if you're scum, since you're self-hammering to deny more discussion. I'd really like to have seen springlullabies replacement before nightfall, and I'd like to request that twilight be extended for our replacement to share his or her views.

[Uite]

I keep track of the votes in a spreadsheet, and I've just noticed something odd. Excepting Zed's selfvote, there is NO overlap between the voters for Chesskid and Quadz. The only player who hasn't voted for either is springlullaby, who has kept her vote on Pomegranate the entire time. Now, what's interesting here is that the group voting for Chesskid contains the more suspicious players, while the group voting for Quadz contains the least suspicious players, according to my reads. To me that suggests that scum are trying to force a Chesskid lynch. However, there are more people voting for Chesskid than there are scum, so I'd like to ask the townies voting for him to change their votes to Quadz.

Called it right here. All the scum were indeed voting Chesskid.

This game was ruined by the rampant lurking. Seriously, nobody did anything, and it was ridiculous how you killed Chesskid Day 3. Should have listened to me. At least I'm glad I got to prevent his mislynch.

[Uite]

Hey! I never got the link to the Dead QT!

Oops...

[Uite]

I'm amazing. No surprise. Good game all.

Meh, I had you pegged as scum ever since I first read the thread. It was really obvious too. I don't understand how you weren't lynched.

Sorry about replacing out. To be quite honest, I was apathetic about this game on Day 1, and when I tried to read the thread to catch up and couldn't understand anything due to meds, I gave up. So, yeah, this marks my second flake-out. Many thanks to Uite for agreeing to replace me. <3

Happy to help you out, but if I'd known this would've turned into such a lurkfest, I probably wouldn't have bothered.