Open 250 - Pie E7 Mark II

[lewarcher82]

/confirm

Hello everyone. I have already read the first 3 pages, gonna finish reading ASAP.

[lewarcher82]

Well, this sure is a very intense game... I apologise if u will find I am too synthetic, but I do hate Walls, sorry bout that. I am quoting only the necessary.

Despite the way pre- and early-game crap has been used to build half-cases in the first pages, I'd say that before post 78 all I can see is:

1) several players who cast votes, which is basically very normal at game-start, and
2) a lot of arguing on the meaning of the above-mentioned game-start votes.

As much as I may be happy that it took a vote off my predecessor, I have to admit that, when I was reading for the first time, Sotty's post #76 made me raise an eyebrow. I can understand why he votes CKD, but what I do not understand isL what did VP to convince him that his reaction made him conceivably town? Did something in VP's behaviour really change? Or was it only Sotty's gut-feeling that mutated?

then we have posts 78-90: AKA Equinox puts CKD at L-1 - CKD claims - Equinox unvotes.

Some words on the reasons for Equi's vote:

1) how is it scummy or disturbing, the fact that CKD explicitated his joke?
2) CKD's comment on Vi is too early in the game to have internal significance. Early game is important, but insisting on it is weird and often scummy.

Since I deeply contest the relevance of the argumentation Equinox brings for her vote, I am even more unable than the other players to understande what CKD possibly "gave" her between post #87 AKA "I'm getting at something here" and post #90 AKA Unvote.
Also note that in post #99 Equinox implies that CKD "gave" her what she wanted (= answered her questions) already in post #83, which contraddicts her statement in post #85.

In post #99 something else happens: Equinox quickly reject a legitimate observation by Vi and then switches to asking for a prod for a lurker. Turning attention to an inactive player is sometimes a scum strategy, also because game had been running for just 2 days, so it was definitely to eraly to ask for a prod.

-Einsatz about #98: Sotty's analysis of the scumminess of putting someone at L-1 is justified. If I am a vanilla, I would not claim at L-1 on day1, it's too early, also because tomorrow it will be lylo. But it is true that someone may claim, and putting a player on L-1 is quite safe way to soft-fishing, IMO. Also consider that, if CKD were cop, the claim would have been very likely to come-

Post #100: wonderful! Now CKD is not even aware of having answered the questions he apparently had answered. This is a towntell to me.

Post #104: Vi provides some reasons to believe Equinox. All of them look little convincing to me, except the last two: Equinox believed the claim, so why shouldnt she unvote? She did not unvote right away, but gave it some time. I guess Vi is a smart player and realises that Equinox did not provide any explanation for her change of mind. Also, she blatantly pretended she did (he didnt answer my questions, huh, wait, actually he did and so on). Why did u avoid commenting on this?

Further, Vi bets on the "second option", which is fine, but then he votes someone who cannot possibly "look scummy", cuz he hardly posted.

Post #106: Vi switches to sotty. Here I see two interpretations. Is Vi switching to random players just to make it look like he ain't buddying? Or is he really scum-hunting? Reading the rest of the thread, I convinced myself that he is probably genuine scum-hunting.

The dispute between sotty and Vi procedes til post #136. I confess that, if I were playing, I would have answered "it's possible" to VP's first question at post #131. But the way everything is turning to meta is causing me problems. I will have to do some research, cuz I havent played for 18 months and I don't know any of you.

POst #137: the new turning point, AKA "NPAU is here!!!".
NPAU proposes a suggestive interpretation: Equi and CKD... scumbuddies? (or did I misinterpret the slash???)
and he also utters the same feeling about Vi that I was having during my reading. Vi *is* over-committed and this cannot look scummy, assuming that he is the good player he appears to be.

Also, NPAU sees teh inconsitency of the reasons given by Equinox to justify her unvoting CKD. Thx god someone saw it, dudes! Really!

My predecessor did not, as it is demonstrated by post #138. Too bad. LoL

Catch-up posts by sotty (up to #142). Sotty has some good points on Equinox, and he finally realises what NPAU had pointed out

Post #143 by Vi. Even though he is positively asked to, Vi does not mention the problem of the "answers" Equinox allegedely received by CKD.

Nothing really interesting til post #149, AKA "The Wall of Text by the one who hates Walls of Text". It is basically a collection of quotes by Equinox, that actually adds very little to what we knew, and shows to have misunderstood one of the quotes:

[quote:NPAU]
First, Equinox came in and L-1 CKD forcing a claim on CKD...

Dude. You haven't been reading...[/quote]
What Equi is referring to is the fact that she did not force the claim.
Did NPAU really miss this point?
We can say everything about Equi, but she definitely did not force a claim.
She prolly hoped it would have come, imo, but she did not force it. Bad rethoric is harmful to the rightful, NPAU. Bad work here.

Post #150: Equinox, colors are distracting. It is hard to focus on the real proportion you give to the things you write. I would suggest you limit yourself to the only tools the other players use to express themselves: words.
Among the joyful colors, Equinox finally explains:

There is a disconnect here. What was in post 88 that gave Equinox what she wanted? I don't see anything at all. Hell, she is still questioning him in her unvote post, I don't get it at all. It looks bad, there is no reasoning that I can see. Plus she didn't explain why, why no transparency?

The questioning was in a different direction following the unvote. The first question was to question CKD's judgment, not to discern CKD's alignment (as my previous questions were). The second sentence was a response to CKD, not a question.

The explanation is not satisfactory: how could the answers to such questions be decisive for putting or not someone at L-1? L-1 is not necessarily a "will be lynched situation", but it is still a serious one.

Further, another point which appears interesting to me.

NPAU sez: I want St.K to post, in order to re-evaluate his read, according to which, we all know, Equi would be scum. I dun see anything wrong in this. It is evident that he will states he is trying to scum-hunt the likliest team. and still Equi asks (in other words she posts filler).

Post #154:

Vi was town-ish.

Correction. IIRC Vi didn't offer too much by way to stances, either, so null.

Scared of people saying u were buddying?
I dun think u were, but still a scummy post.

Post #158, by Vi: calling the team does not work? The whole process of scum-hunt is based on catching the hidden dynamics of buddying/bussing.

Eventually, St.K. posts (#168). I basically agree with his criticism abot Vi's defence of Equinox, but I do not understand his vote on NPAU. I repeat: I find NPAU's idea of looking for teams absolutely legitimate.

Legitimate is, hence, the critic by Vi in post #174. But again, I find he is to quick in switching votes. St.K's countervote in post #182 does not help. Eeveryone looks very nervous. And imo someone is succeeding in averting attention from the only real event that took place: Equinox's vote.

Sotty's post #203. He collects some evidence against St.K. Basically, the weird behaviour of attackin Equi and then voting NPAU. Nothing wrong here. Sotty is playing a very good game. He manages not to get too much attention, which could mean two opposite things. I can only bet my left arm that he ain't a vanilla T

(Inzwischen: CKD seems to be disappeared)

St.K. #205: How on earth is NPAU NOT posting content??? He built up entire cases and he posted insightful readings, imo. SO sorry, I definitely do not agree.

(catchup posts by CKD follow, interrupted by a frustrated admission of lacking of time: if NPAU is not posting content, what is CKD doing?)

SOmething interesting in post #223:

curious vi, when should I have claimed? You can shake your finger all you want, but you just avoided lynching town.

You should have claimed when someone asked for a claim, at least if vanilla. With power roles (and scum) things get a little messier but etc.

So, Vi, since Equi did not know, wasn't it risky to put someone at L-1? How does it get along with your defense of her?

(I'm in class. Good job on making me miss important stuff for this.)

That is not a slip. CKD has town status. How have I determined this? In case you've missed all the times I've called CKD town while defending myself (which I'm sure you have),

I firmly believe CKD is town

. Firmly. Believe. Is that certainty going to affect how I treat him? Yes, it will.

---

Frankly, defending my L-1/unvote over and over again and having it fall on deaf ears has gotten so old and wrinkly I'm surprised it's not 6 feet under yet. Actually, I think it's buried now, but I don't feel like wasting more class time to check this, so I'll find out when I get home.

Therefore, I'm going to explain what I'm doing from now on. If sottyrulez or anyone else pushes post 250 as their case against me, I'm just going to link you/them to this post, and that's it. If I get lynched for that, I don't think I'm going to be very upset about it; it's hard to care for a game where someone just nearly called my V/LA illegitimate or decided to call every fucking thing I do as scum-motivated.

I'm not mafia. I'm town.

That's it.

For the sake of not simply ditching everyone else, I will read, catch up, post thoughts, whatever. But if you attack me, I probably won't care anymore; it's getting bad for my health, kthx.

Pre-empting "OMG EQUISCUM HAS GIVEN UP." Yes, yes, I have. Have fun.

Ok. You now think that he is town. Or do you know it, cuz you are not? LoL

Post #259: scotty scores a meta-goal!
3 following posts: Equinox over-reacts.

Post #267: massclaim? for real? On day 1? AM I the only one who thinks Vi looks nervous?

Post #270: NPAU, I do not think that Vi is trying to rolefish with a massclaim, common. You guys define yourselves elite-players. I bet he knows better than this, if he is scum.

Post #280: huh, I didnt feel like sotty was attacking Equi THAT BAD...

Post #286: huh? Oh, k

Post #293: mmh, real frustration? Or a strategy to convey a feeling of real frustration?

All in all, I need to do a little meta-research.
I get town-vibes from: NPAU > sotty > Vi
I get scum-vibes from: Equinox > St.K. > CKD

Also, since I am not done yet:

Unvote

[lewarcher82]

allright, first of all I apologise, I took long and I didn't check the meta's, yet, because I have been on a train for the whole day (which will happen two sundays every month because of my job, so I will not write V/LA everytime, just forgive me if I disappear for one day).

I feel like I need, at least, to answer to Vi and NPAU.

Vi: the feeling that you are nervous derived from the whole thread. In a different context, perhaps, I wouldn't have felt that the request of a MC sounded "nervous". My bad. Anyway, there is a thing I did not understand in your post about MC, but I believe it is better not to ask it for now. You can all remind me later, perhaps on day 2, if I am alive.

Vi(2): you ask me Y/N? Well, I have a longer experience of Mafia games than my signature may induce to think, and a standard procedure would have been using the ML, and massclaiming on day 2 lylo, I guess. But you anticipated this point in your very post, explaining why this option is ruled out. So I agree, we can MC. But please let's not discuss the possible outcomes as NPAU asked you to do. This would definitely help scum.

NPAU: the inability of identifying a reasonable partner for Equinox (assuming Equi really is scum) is my biggest issue. I can elaborate a little:
1) CKD and Equinox: this would imply that two big and naive mistakes were made. First, Equi voted him and quickly unvoted. Then CKD states that he didn't answer any questions while Equi says he did. This can happen, of course, but we are not in a newby game, are we?
2) St.K. and Equinox: St.K. did challenged the defense that Vi made of Equi, but then he did not vote her. If they are partner, then this is a bussing. But why leaving it uncomplete? Why not vote her?

Now I start reading some other games of you guys. I may post again later, or tomorrow (Rome-Berlin Time Zone; also, I forgot: English Second Language here, I apologise for any mistakes).

[lewarcher82]

At this point, I did read some meta, namely I looked up a game played by Vi and a game played by Equinox (the one where she discusses putting a player at L-1).
The game-style of Vi is quite similar in this game and in the other game I have checked. He is a quick-voter and he tends to lead town. I withdraw the accuse of being "nervous".
As for Equinox, she could actually have had some reason to think that putting CKD at L-1 was a good idea, but still the reason for the quick unvote is unclear to me. This is not a newby game, no1 would have hammered without thinking about the consequences.

@NPAU: after your post, there is no reason to keep hiding the thing I did not understand in Vi's post about claiming. It is exactly the sentence where he states that he has failed in preventing scum from knowing the PR's identities. If anything like that actually happened, then it's a good thing for the scumteam I am not one of them, cause I definitely did not notice. LoL

@Equi: uhm, looks like you want a direct confrontation on the matter of why I am FoSing you. Here you go. 1: although your other game may explain how you put CKD at L-1 without expecting a claim, it is absolutely unclear why you unvoted so quickly (

you did not expect a claim BUT you feared a hammer? This is a contraddiction

).
2: as I pointed out, not only some of us had the feeling that CKD couldn't possibly have answered your "questions" between your vote and your unvote, but even CKD denied he ever did. How do you explain this?

also, you asked 2 further questions:
1) where is my vote? Not voting right now. Why should I? We are, theoretically, in the middle of a chain of claims.
2) why did I question the judgement of my predecessor? Hell, it's my job to do it, I am not him! Btw, I already explained that I think that, in post 138, he missed the basic problem of your unmotivated decision of unvoting CKD (see my wall, above).

@Vi: you claim out of the chain? Why? Am I to assume that the chain is not important to your plan? Or should I wait for my turn? I will have you notice that a chaotic massclaim is easier for scum...

[lewarcher82]

looking for your posts on page 5. Why? LoL
I missed any mention of a massclaim back there, and still do.

[lewarcher82]

@Equi: I still do not see any difference between post 83 and post 88; still post 83 was not enough to unvote CKD and post 88 was. This remains my problem.

Also: as far as I see the massclaim started at #310, but this is irrelevant. I am not voting now, but I am

claiming Cop.

[lewarcher82]

eheheheh I should have worked to undermine your authority over town, Vi, but I had no way to do it except trying to join NPAU's positions against a massclaim, which would have made me scummy... wouldn't have worked, and I did not have any time for that
of course you were looking for nilla's, but at endgame you will realise how claiming nilla would have been terribly risky in my current position. Since Equi's vote, since the moment you decided you think she is town, and finally since a third event happened (which made maths a little different than what you just described), this game was set.

Hats off, and

I hammer

myself

vote: Lewarcher82