Open 274: Game Over!
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
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I was waiting for your conversation to reach it's natural conclusion.
Did you have to go through your wiki and count before you made this post, or was the number in your head already?Alduskkel wrote:Well, 28 with this game. 27 came from my wiki page, which does not yet include this game.
And yes, I do love Hoopla.-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
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Also, the forum might show that I'm browsing, but that just means I have the window open in the background. I am doing work at the same time.-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
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andrew, you voted/attempted to vote Hoopla. Do you think her actions so far are more likely to come from scum or town? Why?
In targetting Hoopla, you are implicitly defending Alduskkel. Do you feel comfortable with this?-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
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How, or why? Why is the same reason Hoopla pointed out; I saw you were browsing and wanted you to post.Stefunny wrote:Seems like RVS has taken off, I'm curious as to how Fenchurch Randomed my name? Your username looks familiar, do you frequent any other forums?
I don't really post on any other forums, but I'm probably not the only Fenchurch out there.
What do you think of the game so far? Who strikes you as scummy or not scummy? In particular, what is your opinion on andrew?
Well then I disagree. I think pushing an empty case on someone later in the game might be scummy, but early in the game it's a valid kickstarter/hunting method, and pro-town. Although in Hoopla's case I consider it a null tell.andrew94 wrote:of course scum...
i already explained earlier.
I find it odd that your first reaction is to suggest that they might be scum together.andrew94 wrote:how am i implicitly defending alduskkel??? for all i know, its a sick role play
UNVOTE:
VOTE: andrew94-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
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I didn't say your case was empty, I said it was wrong.
The 'empty' case I was referring to was Hoopla's immediately opening the game with vote/pressure on Alduskkel. I assumed that was why you were voting her, although you didn't give much of an explanation.-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
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It was the very start of the game. It's not possible to have a strong reason for a vote; you have to improvise. Scum have been caught in the past using this method. Do you dispute this? Did you read the game that was linked to?Fenchurch wrote:early in the game it's a valid kickstarter/hunting method, and pro-town.
I think your persistence in holding on to a crap case seems forced, and therefore scummy.-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
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It's not from any wiki, it just makes sense, and can be demonstrated in other games. And as I already said, I'm NOT sure Hoopla is town-aligned here, I consider it a null tell as to her alignment, because she has played before and knows what she's doing. But that doesn't stop it being pro-town: putting pressure on someone at the start of the game generates information which is helpful regardless of who does it. It's certainly not scummy, which is what you are trying to make out.
I'm not asking you to back off, I'm pointing out to others why I think you're scum.-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
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Sorry if that wasn't clear, I'm want to hear everyone's current read on andrew, or if not that, about this case in general.
And I want to hear more from ConfidAnon, DMG and Stefunny.-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
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"pro-town" isn't equal to town.
A player can do something that benefits the town, without being town themselves.-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
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And a player can look pro-town, whilst being scum. That depends on the skill and experience of the player in question, which is why I give Hoopla a wide margin of error.-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
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It was just my dismayed face at DMG's defeatism.andrew94 wrote:
It's not a double-standard. I have different expectations of a case and a vote right at the opening of the game, to those that come after. Is that not normal?Alduskkel wrote:Fenchurch's case is applying a double standard. andrew94 is scummy for having a crap case, but Hoopla is not scummy for it? All cases are kind of crappy currently.
Well, the opening of this game was kind of a replay of the marathon game that was linked to, where Hoopla gave the following explanation:Stefunny wrote:I don't think he gave much of a case for voting Hoopla but I do feel like she terrible reasoning for her vote either, and when questioned about her vote she gave reasoning that didn't make any sense and sort of avoided questionsand thendisappeared for an unspecified amount of time. So I sort of understand where andrews vote came from.
To me this makes sense as a valid town strategy, especially for the start of the game.Hoopla wrote:I have loose theories revolving around scum tending to be more cautious or actively seeking safe places for votes, but you don't get to unearth these motives often when games ebb and flow in the expected manner. Sometimes it pays to deviate from the norm and drag scum out of their comfort zone, because they don't have as many reference points to turn to when it's something they haven't seen.
You say you think it was scummy, but you keep ignoring my point that it was the very start of the game. How do you expect anyone to come up with a solid case at that point? Can you not see the value in putting someone under pressure anyway, to see how they respond? What about in light of the above explanation that I've quoted?andrew94 wrote:i dont follow that logic. i think the act is not pro town, hoopla avoiding questions after being caught is definitely scummy-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
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What?? You could say this about any scumhunting method. No strategy is guaranteed, and what works once might not work next time, but thatandrew94 wrote:err
if so called strategy works, then there would never be a mislynch.the 'value' of putting someone under pressure could and would backfire. how would you know each individuals reaction to pressure.doesn't stop us trying, or how could we play?
Defeatism is an attitude that all is lost and we might as well accept defeat, I was referring to DMG's comment that the game is apparently now harder for town, which I don't see at all.-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
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I've already said I don't consider it a tell. So your argument now is "that player did a pro-town thing, but probably only did it so that they would look more townie", which doesn't make sense, because the more obvious explanation for someone to do something pro-town is that they are town. If we start lynching the most townie looking players then we're playing the game backwards.
And you claimed earlier that it wasn't a pro-town action, but you've yet to explain why.-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
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DMG, why is that her fault? What is your experience of playing mafia before, have you played on forums, in real life?Da_Mafia_Godfather wrote:I have not the first clue of what to do. And that's Hoopla's fault.-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
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How would you have expected the game to begin then DMG? What do you need to happen to become less confused, what information do you want to find out? Scum aren't just going to reveal themselves to you. You are one of the players here, you have the power to influence the game, and ask the questions that you need to.
Aside from that... re-reading.-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
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Okay. I can kind of see where Ald and Stef are coming from, saying that Hoopla and andrew's actions are not that different; I agree that I was more willing to see underlying motivation in Hoopla's than andrew's, although I still think that a vote and/or case coming right at the start of the game, with zero information, can be judged differently to any thereafter.
I also thought that was a fairly standard opening - not just from Hoopla - but I can't point to any similar games right now so maybe I'm imagining it.
Other notes:
This still strikes me as a strange/scummy response to make.andrew94, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=2707752#p2707752]#61[/url] wrote:how am i implicitly defending alduskkel??? for all i know, its a sick role play
I agree with this to a certain extent, but I also think that players who are scum often worry that it will be seen as suspicious to do a total U-turn, and so they will hang on to a weak case in the face of all else.Hoopla wrote:Andrew is probably town - his attack on me impassioned and persistent, and although it has come to the wrong conclusion, I think scum would be wary to tunnel so early in the game based on a perceived action. Fenchurch has faulted andrew for holding onto a poor case, but what makes it different now, is that he has received a decent amount of pressure from Fenchurch (and others less directly), yet still hangs on tight. This means either of two things; he is town and genuinely believes he has caught something, or he is scum and believes he can get away with his vote.
I also agree with the various observations on ConfidAnon. However...
Da_Mafia_Godfather wrote:I might be alone here but apart from this question I have not the first clue of what to do. And that's Hoopla's fault. That's also why she's scum.
This is super-weak. My theory: DMG is town in his other games and scum here, and trying to cover up the fact that he doesn't know how to pretend to scumhunt when he's scum.Da_Mafia_Godfather wrote:I've played a lot of games and never been as confused as I am now. I can't be the problem because otherwise I would have been equally confused in tyhose games.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Da_Mafia_Godfather-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
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I took it to be just a blanket answer that no matter what we ask him about his previous experience, he can't back it up with any game links. But it could be what you say.andrew94 wrote:lol! suggesting that you are in scum in an uncompleted game
So DMG has made some observations on other players, but still doesn't use it to form any reads. I swear there's a good chance it's because he's blinded by the fact he's scum himself.Da_Mafia_Godfather wrote:Honestly I haven't seen CA and Stefunny play as well as I'd expect from other games (CA especially) so I don't really agree with your premise.
My current pick for scumbuddy is CA, and I'd be happy to see either of them lynched today.-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
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Also, just noticed this from earlier:
When I said weird earlier, I meant I found it scummy. Weird as in, a weird thing for town to say; it didn't strike me as genuine.andrew94 wrote:@fenchurch, its my obvservation, you said it was weird earlier, now its scummy ? = =-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
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Why is it anti-town to make posts before the game has 'begun'?
And if you have reads, in what way are you/were you ever confused?-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
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I still don't follow the cause-effect here. Why is posting in pregame any more confusing that waiting and posting after? People will have already received their roles; reads can be made. This is craplogic as far as I can tell.Da_Mafia_Godfather wrote:
Because it has the chance to confuse people.Fenchurch wrote:Why is it anti-town to make posts before the game has 'begun'?
I don't know. He hasn't posted much, but what he has posted is weak/scummy. But then DMG, my other main suspect, got on his wagon, almost openly to avoid his own lynch.Hoopla wrote:Fenchurch/Stefunny - thoughts on CA? Do you think it would be too early to drop a hammer?
CA hasn't posted since last Thursday. I thought he must've flaked, but he's posted in other games a couple of times over the weekend. Why is he avoiding ours.
@BlakAdder: please can you prod ConfidAnon, if you haven't already.-
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I don't know why you consider it spam. By that stage, all the players know their alignment. The pre-game discussion is as important and useful as in any 'RVS'.Da_Mafia_Godfather wrote:People playing to the town win condition will not post a lot in pre-game because you're wasting what is a very useful part of the game (to look back on once you've got some flips) spamming.
But I think I see now what you're getting at, it's notanypre-game activity that confounds you, is that you found our game start in particular to be 'spammy'. I disagree, but I get it.
Hoopla - I don't have any other ideas, sorry. But I'm not scum here.-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
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No posts all day
Right now what I want most is to hear from CA and Stef.
CA - 4 posts, Thu 6
Stef - 6 posts, Sun 9
DMG - 16 posts, Mon 10
Ald - 23 posts, Mon 10
andrew - 23 posts, Tue 11
Fen - 25 posts, Sun 9
Hoopla - 25 posts, Mon 10-
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I assumed it was this post, but I thought it must be the bit about CA. I was holding back in that regard; I assumed you were looking, under the assumption that CA was scum, for possible buddy reactions to the prospect of his likely lynch, eg. bussing, defending, fencesitting. If I said the absolute truth (that I was not willing to drop a hammer CA yet), that weakened any pressure on Stef to take a stance, since it was no longer such a likely lynch. It was Stef who I wanted to hear from, since she hasn't posted as much as others in the game. I was tempted to just wait until after she'd posted, but that can slow the game down, so instead I tried to be vague about my opinion. I don't know if that was a good idea or not.Hoopla wrote:It was triggered in post 129
Anyway...
I can't say if this is true or not - and it's slightly bizarre to hear - I'm not really aware of my play being like this. However:Hoopla wrote:Fenchurch is generally fairly detached, aloof even, and prefers asking questions and posting a running commetary of events, rather than get tangled in wordy debates. I've not seen her play in such a manner before, and from the looks of it, I think the change has come from her being more aggressive and going out of her way to find things as scummy.
* this is the first game we've played together where I've really been present from the start, where I think maybe information generation (through accusations) is more necessary than observation.
* in a small game it is often more necessary to 'get your hands dirty' than in a large game, like we were last in together.
* this isn't the first game where I've been especially aggressive; see Open 229: Vengeful.-
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Oh, I've just noticed this from a couple of pages ago:andrew94, #68 wrote:when this discussion is over, i would like to suggest to strategy
What strategy were you going to suggest, andrew?andrew94, #99 wrote:and... wanna hear my strategy.-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
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Definite no in my opinion. There's also a 50% chance that the backup is useful, if they claim then they are condemned to death tonight, and we start tomorrow with a PR dead and as many confirmed townies as we would have had otherwise.
There's no benefit to getting a confirmed townie 'out of the running' if we're not already considering them for lynch anyways, and if we are, well then they can claim when the time comes.-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
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Uncountered claims will still be trustable. Countered claims can still be judged by their claim, and their actions in the game besides.andrew94 wrote:+if 2morrow is LYLO, claims + cc's will be untrustable.-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
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Okay on second thoughts it might be okay, because the 50% doc chance means if the mafia want to kill the claimed deputy, they risk 50% having their kill blocked, and might be better searching for the main PR, with the same chances as before, and then we would have a confirmed deputy tomorrow.
I'm not sure. In general I feel that D1 claim in open games is unnecessary and the risks outweigh the rewards. I'd prefer/am just as happy to play it straight with claims at the usual time. Anyone else have an opinion?-
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Because if the most lynchworthy player turns out to have a claim up their sleeve, then it leaves less room for the scum to hide in. They would have to be the most town-looking players to escape their own lynch.
Still waiting for Stef's opinion on backup claiming.-
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I still think that this plan overestimates the tendency and success of mafia counterclaiming, which in my experience is often easy to spot. But my experience isn't that wide, and I'm happy to go along with it if everyone else is. Stef, are you in favour then?-
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BlakAdder, if you haven't found a replacement for CA, will you still be upholding the Saturday deadline?-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
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Okay. I was hoping to come to a unanimous verdict first, but it doesn't seem a bad move to make; Stef will just have to go along. And if it's CA then we'll know when no one else claims. I'm happy to start.
I'm not the backup power role.
By the way, no one should be claiming that they are a vanilla townie or anything else specific. Just backup or not backup. It's probably best to not specify which type of backup - I can't see an advantage to town knowing at this stage, and if mafia know then it gives them more opportunity to strategise the consequences of the backup being alive or not.-
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Huh.
Also:
I didn't understand what you meant by this originally either. I realise now you were giving it as anDa_Mafia_Godfather wrote:You defined it wrong. I defined clarify as being like
(the bit in brackets)You just sort of joked around without kicking up dust (for the record, Hoopla joked around and kicked up dust)exampleof where Ald clarifies, but it originally looked like you meant that the bit in brackets was equivalent to a definition of what clarification means.-
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@DMG: Sorry to bring it up again, but were you honestly confused by Hoopla's game opening, or just felt that it was intended to be anti-town? Does the fact that she used a similar opening in a game where she was town have any bearing on your opinion?
@Hoopla: I was going to ask this anyway, what did you mean by this quote earlier in the game?
And you haven't commented on him much besides; what is your read on DMG in general?Hoopla wrote:As for Da Mafia Godfather, he is just being Da Mafia Godfather.
@andrew: I don't totally understand what you're asking. DMG is apparently an alt of Empking. Probably to escape meta-arguments, I believe that's the usual reason well-known players create alts.-
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@BlakAdder: I've just noticed ConfidAnon has been posting in some of his other games. It might be worth prodding him again, unless he specifically requested to replace out of this one.-
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A town tell is totally different to a town read surely? That's not just semantics. Town tell = like a scum tell, something that pings as townie on your radar.
I think DMG makes a good call in his reads on Ald and Hoopla. I'd be happy to lynch either of them today. To a lesser extent CA; I'd prefer to see someone occupying that player slot first.
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That is, on DMG's radar, not Hoopla's.Fenchurch wrote:A town tell is totally different to a town read surely? That's not just semantics. Town tell = like a scum tell, something that pings as townie on your radar.-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
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I don't consider a player sharing their town reads to be an indication that they are town. Do you?-
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I thought the earlier stuff was crap, but since about #166 I think he has made good points, and was feeling conflicted in my vote on him. I'll re-read, but right now I think these are the strongest cases in the game.-
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This is what I took it to mean. This is how I feel as well. Like you earlier, mine is currently a gut read. I'll have to re-read before I can expand properly.Hoopla wrote:Da_Mafia_Godfather wrote:Hang on. I think I misinterpreted Empking's original post - it looks like you're saying thatI'vemade no town tells myself-
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Yes. That is pretty much what it hinges on for me.
Although I haven't re-read yet, so there could be something I've missed. And it could just be because I've seen you play a strong scum-game, so my meter is adjusted.
Ald: you haven't voted for most of the game. Who is your top suspect now and why?-
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Sure, in a vacuum. But when other players have made town tells (ie. things that you don't think they would have said or thought of if they were scum), and we know that someone IS scum, then that is most likely to be the player who hasn't.Alduskkel wrote:The Hoopla case is very silly without any scum tells to back it up. The argument is that Hoopla is scum because she hasn't given off any town tells. But I can make the same argument in reverse: Hoopla is town because she hasn't given off any scum tells.-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
- Mafia Scum
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- Posts: 2003
- Joined: July 24, 2008
- Pronoun: she/they
- Location: Notts, UK
I'm afraid I don't, but you could try posting in the Open Queue, a lot of people seem to put their replacement requests there these days, as well as the official replacement thread.-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
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- Location: Notts, UK
I think... I'm up for lynching CA instead of replacing him. The posts he has made in the game didn't seem especially townie, and add to that the fact that he's ditched this game in particular, means he's either bored by it, or doesn't want to put in the work to defend himself, which I see as a mild scumtell. The usual danger of lynching in absentia is that they could be a power role, but I think the chances of that are low in this case. He was high enough on my scum list anyway.
VOTE: ConfidAnon-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
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- Posts: 2003
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I'll retract my vote, but not my sucky post.
UNVOTE:
I still believe, whereas flaking from the whole site is neutral (and cancels out 'lurking'), choosing to abandon one game is a scummy move.-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
- Mafia Scum
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- Posts: 2003
- Joined: July 24, 2008
- Pronoun: she/they
- Location: Notts, UK
I agree that it's strange. But I don't think the two possible explanations I gave are that far-fetched. If someone chooses to abandon a game, surely there's a good chance it's because they see it as unwinnable, unfun, or both.Hoopla wrote:I don't think you can really say that without knowing the alignment of the other games he didn't flake from. Kind of strange to continue posting on site but completely ignore and not even acknowledge why you're leaving.
CA picked up a some votes and pressure pretty quickly in the game, and my experience is it takes more effort to defend yourself when the points against you are true.
If he has a better reason for leaving, then I'd have expected him to post to explain.
Ugh I don't know. I guess your argument is, why didn't he just make up a lie as to why he was leaving. And my only answer is that it's extra work to create a lie. I don't know.-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
- Mafia Scum
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- Posts: 2003
- Joined: July 24, 2008
- Pronoun: she/they
- Location: Notts, UK
Halfway through.
DMG: Have you played with Hoopla before?
Hoopla: Did you know DMG was Emp before he made the slip-up?-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
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Yesyesyes.
I haven't finished up my readthrough, but I agree with what Hoopla is saying. I also now think she's less likely to be scum.
I think there is a good chance Alduskkel is sitting in a scum slot. I think he's played a very 'safe' and reserved game, which is somewhat scummy, and often the case when the other scumpartner is out there pushing cases more; which pretty much all other players have been doing. He's done little to make me think he's town.
VOTE: Alduskkel-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
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The deadline is less than 24 hours away. I really hope that there'll be some more posting before then, and I'd like to see a lynch on Ald, I do think he is the best pick today.
For the record, here are my other observations:
andrew - I know others have disagreed with me on this, but I do feel the early attacks on Hoopla (#36, #47) were more forshowof scumhunting, to me they didn't feel genuine. I could be wrong, or as has been suggested, this could have been a pressure case, but that isn't how it comes across to me.
DMG - I feel that to a certain extent in the early game he was deliberately playing dumb, trying to get some newb-slack, to the point where Ald asked if he english was his first language. This doesn't seem like townie behaviour to me
CA/Fritz - I still think it should be considered as higher than average chance that this was an abandonment of scum under pressure, especially given the fact that he didn't even make a courtesy "replace me please" post; but I admit that other reasons may apply, most likely lack of interest.
Hoopla - Nothing helpful I can say; the last post seemed townie, but I know she's fooled me before.
Ald - Covered above. Has posted quite a lot, but is noncommittal, has stayed out of the limelight, and doesn't really seem to be 'scumhunting'.-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
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- Posts: 2003
- Joined: July 24, 2008
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Possibly, I didn't realise that was why he was asking. But I still read your behaviour up to that point as "uncommunicative newbie", whether that was deliberate or not I don't know.Da_Mafia_Godfather wrote:I think you're taking that out of context. It was a direct result of Alduskel misreading a quote and from that making him think I used a word incorrectly.-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
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Depends totally on the situation. It has been proven that flakers on the whole are, proportionately, no more likely to be town nor scum, so for the most part I would read nothing into it. But usually flakers flake from the site entirely, or if not, post to explain or apologise because they can't play in the game. It's unusual for someone not to do either, and I'm sure there are other possible reasons (privacy, forgetfulness, lack of time), but I'd say there is also a higher than normal chance that in this situation, it could have been due to scum under pressure.Fritzler wrote:Do people really flake because they are scum though?-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
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The most likely pairings in my opinion are:
Ald - andrew (not sure why some people are ruling andrew out, I think this is a bad move)
Ald - DMG
Hoopla - Fritz
But this isn't exhaustive as I haven't had time to go through all the possible options and put full consideration in. At any rate.. I'd be comfortable with either Ald or Fritz lynch today.
Sorry for lack of posts from me, I'm having a busy weekend.
ActuallyBlakAdder, would it be appropriate to prod Ald before the deadline?I've just realised he's absent atm and would rather he had the chance to claim before his lynch, ack.-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
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Also can I just say that I support with the process of looking at pairings, but not with choosing a lynch based on "probability" down to pairings, because I've read a number of games where town lost because of this. I think pairings are useful, but should then be judged on the actual players' actions and interactions; not how many times someone appears on the list.-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
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Jeez.. town are gonna hate me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Ald is scum actually.
UNVOTE:
But... I can't see through the fog and work out who IS. Panicky re-thinking going on okay.-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
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