Open 272 - Near-Vanilla (Over!)

[DavidParker]

Confirm i'm here, will catchup soooon.

[DavidParker]

About to go to sleep, have had time just to do a skim-read without making any amount of analysis at the moment. Tomorrow night will see me there. Right now it's 6am and I haven't slept sorry.

@mod:

Any update on when the deadline will be?

[DavidParker]

So my ability to replace into games has been questionable at best in the past, the town games I've replaced in I've always thought I knew exactly who scum were and been wrong and done a lot of PBPA which I now believe to not be all that useful in most situations, so I might try something different here and look at the game "event by event" so it's easier to look at scummy things in context.

I've caught up and read anything, if there's specific questions you'd like to ask me go for it, here we go.

RVS: yawn yawn yawn. broken wins some bad-scum-hunter-points for his terrible but semi-serious vote on nacho during RVS although it does seem to be looking for reactions and his posts that follow I like. Farside gets some scummy points for somehow concluding that nacho was scum after 3 posts all of which were 1 or 2 liners by nacho.. Shotty wins some retard points for his posts. AntB proves he fails at reading any form of sarcasm in broken's accusations, then he votes broken for a misunderstanding in linguistics (i felt it was quite clear what broken was saying.... ) I also learn that vanilla extract was a plague spreader. Who knew?

At this point as we are leaving RVS territory I am left wondering where the heck Jesse has gone and why is Farside so set on nacho being scum for some silly non-game related reasons that aren't even a scum-tell in my eyes. AntB is much scummier and broken is probably town.

The-after-RVS-stage:

Shotty and Andrew combine to create some of the most worthless and painful to read 1 line posts with terrible grammar and content. Nacho's fake L-1 vote was quite funny and townish I felt. AntB's reaction wasn't so townish. Still, I am wondering where Jesse is... Somewhere among the mess shotty makes his first actual post - a vote on nacho for his "rolefishing". Oh man did you come up with this scum tell all by yourself shotty? Your input is just too valuable I don't know what we would do without it.

The-SRS-business-Stage:
This starts with nacho actually defending himself. He points out the obvious, confirm scum tell was useless and not something even provable. the rolefishing was well not intended to be rolefishing, nor is rolefishing even scummy in my eyes, its something everyone does at times without meaning to and regardless of alignment. Then my favorite post of the game so far - Smashbro's (144 - http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p2731263). Probably just because he votes shotty. At this point, I feel shotty is coasting. I've been in numerous games with shotty and while he often just posts a lot of 1 liners, he will state his opinions on who he feels is scum, he is definitely lurking more than he normally does, and while his input is somewhat similar, he is far more 'secretive'. I like smashbro's pressure on him and the rest of this post as well. Funnily enough, shotty finally posts right after this vote. Whether that was in response to seeing he can't lurk as much anymore or just the timing of him being active it's hard to say.. But the fact his post is more dribble about an Andrew policy lynch, and just sheeping the 2 wagons makes me feel shotty is bad news.

Oh LOOK, a Wild Jesse appears. 148 Oh look, he just attacked a post I like. Why, scumbag, why???

@Looker: What's with the color coding of that first post?? O_O

Yadee yah. Dunno what stage I'm in anymore.. Slowly turning into PBPA (FML).. Farside brings up some shotty meta, kinda confirms that I think shotty is scum here.

The-Lord_Hur-Stage:
Alright forcing myself to avoid pure PBPA, and labeling this stage the lord_hur stage, because he/she does come in and make some progress here. A lot of actual scum hunting looking into player intent and reasoning behind cases/wagons. etc etc.

The-I-Don't-Have-tOo-much-to-comment-on-the-last-page--butfeelfreetoaskmeanyquestionsonplayersandijustwanttogettoaconclusion-STAGE:
Hoorah.

So. I feel a lot of the people on nacho's wagon early and pushing for his lynch were doing it all for the wrong reasons. The recent push for his wagon has seem more merit as people weren't happy with his responses to the pressure from earlier. Although I still don't feel strongly in the case there, I'm of the opinion people find nacho scummy because of the way he is complying with your requests/questions just not coming in the expected manner, nacho has shown he is willing to reply to what he can in a relatively concise way.

Shotty is definitely play somewhat outside of his normal meta. While I hate to go off meta, I feel he is someone who meta is slightly useful to use for. I mean for one thing it can explain his "bad" play at times, but there is definitely a town-shotty I have seen in games with him which is usually quite opinionated and pressures people. All he has done is push for an andrew policy lynch (who knows why, i really doubt he believes it could ever occur) and state that nacho or antb is scum but nothing more as to why etc. I don't like this play and would put shotty in my #1 slot for scum probably. (if he does flip scum, i'll definitely be looking at Looker for his indirect defense of shotty by attacking smashbro)

AntB seems to have his ups and downs from post to post, he has his scummy moments and his town moments, but I think put into the context of things, with the timing of his nacho vote, and his over-reactiveness at times I am leaning scum on him.

Jesse, where are you? You signed for this game remember?


These 3 players would be on my likely scum list. Much like nacho's. However, it is day 1 and lynching a lurker like Jesse, sadly, won't get us very far. I'd fully support lynching shotty because while he has lurked somewhat, he has definitely done so scummily and not playing to what I perceive as his town meta.

[DavidParker]

*Looks around for a non-nacho wagon on someone who is scummy*

"Oh look! Poorly structured sentences and broken English; my favorite choice!"

Vote: shotty

[DavidParker]

Would love to know why you think Nacho's scum list makes him certain scum?

[DavidParker]

I think I'm being biased by other games I've been in with Nacho at the moment, with that said I don't have a strong town read on nacho, and I feel the early pressure on him was done for the wrong reasons, however, his recent play has been indicative that he isn't entirely willing to scum hunt or help town but don't feel as if he should be put at L-1 yet as I feel shotty's play has been far more atrocious and the stalling/fence-sitting of players like Jesse has been pretty bad as well, and even looking at Egg I see stronger cases to be made..

[DavidParker]

Pft, I know fully well I play as a jerk sometimes, and I'm okay with it! You shouldn't care.

Nacho's answer to your questions give me an impression that he is trying to dig his way out of a hole, kind of what you attacked him for afterwards in the post you voted for him. It literally seems to me as if he iso'd himself and thought "hmm what can I use to defend myself". In fact, as I reread your post now, that's exactly what you claimed he did- "a reread exploited in retrospect". Seems I don't have too much original to say on Nacho after all :/ Or I just read your mind.

However, I know I as town have done this even on one occasion when I got myself into a really scummy hole. I iso'd myself to try see what I could use to defend myself, even if I changed the meaning of my posts from their intended meanings at the time. However, nacho as a more experienced player I see less likely to do this, even if there is some town motive. The main thing I don't like about the nacho wagon is how long it's gone on for, especially since I haven't seen a solid case until you really came along; Farside seems to be making a bit of a stretch with his case and stuck in confirmation bias to me.

Egg, the age-old "i'll catch up when I can" and he still hasn't , although that just makes me more sad than anything, my main problem was when he was here. His first real post on page 4 when discussion was rolling along and the game was moving forward, he just ignores everything. He opts to ask a question of each player, there doesn't seem to be any rreason behind his questions, or any intent to find scum with his questions. Here, quick analysis that isn't a few words like you asked-

Jesse, why didn't you vote in your first post?

Is the answer to this question really going to be representative of scum or town? It's a playstyle question. Jesse is also new (correct me if I'm wrong), so has a slightly non-conformist play style at this point as well.

Smash, how can your vote be "slightly serious"? Either it's a joke or it isn't. None of this half joke garbage.

More play style or really "posting style" questions. That's just how smash words his posts... This isn't scum hunting.

Farside, what about Nacho is scummy aside from "I know him well"?

Quite a generic question, which Farside had already answered more or less... There was definitely more to it than "I know him well".

Chaotic, you spent a lot of time defending yourself early on, but very little time scumhunting. Why?

Oh. The irony.

Midnight, you confirmed after the game had already started. No thoughts on what happened before your post?

You want his life story as well? So he was busy for the first 12-24 hours of the game... Big whoop...

AntB, if broken pinged your scumdar, why no vote until your next post?

Broken, why are Nacho and Chaotic confirmed scum?

drmy, do you have a functional mind or are you just going to let everyone else play the game for you?

Andrew, who is scum other than AntB?

Archer, why are you giving all of these scum points, yet your vote continues to be on "the only one with a three letter name".

slMag, is Chaotic scummy for his take on the typo issue?

I could easily go on and point out how almost every one of his subsequent questions served almost no purpose. Egg didn't post a single opinion until the end of his post and that was an opinion on how he interpreted the wording issue of broken's post... Oh and he comments how he think ant's response was not scum-like... His vote on smash was worse than an RVS vote too.

Egg's next post he attempts to explain his questions. "I don't want to be the clueless guy in the back", well guess what, we're all clueless of what you've actually done to scum hunt or be pro-town. Some kind of interaction between every player... Your interaction was based on a bunch of nothing. You may have just as well asked each and every player their favorite color, claimed it was to create interactions so you're not clueless when really you aren't scum hunting, you've attacked people for not scum hunting, you've posted very little and it's just been fluff when you have posted.

"Id love to post more but my computer is acting up".. This is a web browser game. It's either working or it's not working. You post again after that saying you'll catch up, but what kind of excuse is that? Blah.

Rereading egg's posts again made me rage even more.

Unvote, Vote: EGG

[DavidParker]

Not particularly :/ I'd rather keep my read on farside to myself at this point.

[DavidParker]

Agree with what nacho said. I questioned farside instead of defending nacho, but his scum list seemed perfectly reasonable. I mean it's still day 1, but it's entirely reasonable that 2 or 3 scum are all on his list. That's not even a "big" stretch. A bigger stretch would be putting ant and nacho as scum together.

[DavidParker]

With 8 days until deadline, I'd love to hear from brokenscraps and shotty since nacho is the only wagon at this point. No one else even has more than 1 vote, which is worrying to some extent. And shotty replacing out is annoying because of this, although we will have some fresh eyes on Nacho. Not having a competing wagon is kinda meh.

Considering we need a lynch to occur unless another wagon kicks of it's going to be nacho... or nacho.

[DavidParker]

Yeah, but he's still hella scummy.

As for why Egg over Jesse. Well maybe if I could be voting both at the same time. There isn't much reason. I don't think Jesse was town at the beginning like Smash claims, but really we can't vote for all the scummy lurkers and non-contributors.

[DavidParker]

Life has gotten pretty busy. I will have a full post and it will come with plenty of time before deadline hits, but it might not be in the next few days.

One post a week is not what you should be aiming for when you sign a game...

[DavidParker]

How is what you just described any different to say... Egg? Except Egg is far more guilty of it I feel with that one initial post where he just threw out 10 questions, and there isn't meta to support him like there is andrew.

[DavidParker]

I'd like to propose a policy lynch of Bella.

[DavidParker]

And? I still want a policy lynch.

[DavidParker]

[DavidParker]

So, I don't like Bella's big catchup post, but I was amused by her response to the policy lynch. (if you're not a her, I'm going to call you one anyways, so get used to it). I am going to reiterated (not the first either) how Bella didn't even take a stance on anyone... Even your comments on players look like you didn't put any effort in..

Just looking at mine - you type a sentence or two, say I help get the game moving (don't say how or what that means) then post a comment on me making a joke (obvious joke at that) as apart of your read, then say everything else

SEEMS

productive so far.. I mean, this isn't a read. This is you just saying generic nonsense, that doesn't indicate anything about what you think of me. And 1/3 of it is just about a joke I made...

This post reminds me of Egg's big-question-post, and I don't like it at all. Just instead of questions you have posted generic/non-commital remarks about everyone's play, and mostly just mimic'd other people's opinions.

Try having a stance or original opinion of your own on players?

Based on play alone, I'd probably label Jesse+Egg+Bella (Shotty) as scum right now. They have played worse than anyone else in this game. However, that's often the case in games, and going by my gut I know this list isn't right because scum just don't make themself that obvious. Whereas, bad town players do make themselves known...

[DavidParker]

5 Days until deadline, it's time to get some band-wagoning action happening people who aren't voting. Make a decision and a stance. The fact Bella and Egg (and even Jesse, who has now been replaced though, so less of a tell) aren't voting makes me find them even scummier. But as per usual, bad town-play is fairly common and somewhat [sarcasm]contagious[/sarcasm] it seems.

[DavidParker]

Oh, I'm somewhat partial to new content and arguments, the main problem was the post just didn't take a stance on anyone. Just agreeing with a case is fine, but Bella just didn't commit to anything..

[DavidParker]

Haha, dang, I just noticed how lacking the game info/rules post is

[DavidParker]

*resists urge to post favorite andrew quote*

The entire discourse regarding the policy lynch and what not was all sarcasm/jokes.

[DavidParker]

227- DavidParker is distancing = scum if nacho is town

Because town players having a town-read on other town players is unheard of?

[DavidParker]

Sigh. Policy lynch on Bella is purely a joke(well it's not entirely a joke) based on her atrocious taste in literature.

[DavidParker]

Oh replacing in is too hard for you?? But you chose to replace in. Obviously you believed yourself capable of doing so or you wouldn't have replaced in. Toughen up princess. We aren't going to let you sit there without/fence sit and just coast through the game.

If I had to lynch one person right now it would be lord-hur, but I wouldn't be entirely happy with it.

Demanding a vote is pretty much the best way to assure that I woun't be providing a vote until I'm damn well good and ready.

Cool, until you do vote (and maybe even when you do),

Unvote, Vote Bella

With 4 days until deadline, I see no town motivation to not voting.

[DavidParker]

I definitely see scum motivation behind not having a vote down at this point.

[DavidParker]

That's like the same line of arguing that there is no scum motivation behind intentionally avoiding questions because they did it on purpose. If the action itself is scummy, it's still scummy even if the person realizes they are doing it. The only difference is the way you analyze it in the context of the player as a whole being scum.

Hey I got a bright idea: let's all decide this game is "too hard" and that finding scum is "too hard", and just unvote and wait for something to happen. Sound good?


Preview edit: 4 days is not a long time with weekend coming up and the biggest wagon being 3 or something.. How do you expect us to get to a claim, and then what if we don't want to lynch this person based on their claim? We rush another wagon to L-1 in our final few hours? That is bad play.

[DavidParker]

David's last posts seem poorly motivated especially since

So my ability to replace into games has been questionable at best in the past, the town games I've replaced in I've always thought I knew exactly who scum were and been wrong and done a lot of PBPA which I now believe to not be all that useful in most situations, so I might try something different here and look at the game "event by event" so it's easier to look at scummy things in context.

suggests he actually thinks replacing into game is harder than playing from the start.

Oh, replacing in is generally harder than being in the game from the start (at least from the point of view of getting the feel of the game/staying caught up), although sometimes replacements bringing a fresh PoV and perspective on things can make it easier as they are less biased. Anyways, my point is, her lack of vote at this point I find scummy regardless of whether she replaced in or not. She can at least place a vote, and be honest in saying how strong her read is on the player she votes.. It's better she's voting someone she has a null-read on at this point or a lurker than not voting at all.

[DavidParker]

227- DavidParker is distancing = scum if nacho is town

Because town players having a town-read on other town players is unheard of?

When you replace in and quickly call the leading lynch town, I find that scummy.

This post here makes me believe Batt is town.

[DavidParker]

It shows town-motive/intent to his thinking/analysis.

[DavidParker]

My first thought of day 2 is just that nacho was night-killed for being obvious town after the whole nacho vs ant saga, and then batts turning out to be scum. I think town are more likely to night kill based on who they think is seemingly obv-town, than who they can manipulate to make other people look bad (things just get too complicated/WIFOMy there, and really it just makes more sense to kill pro-town players).

[DavidParker]

Also, I'm glad day phase started on weekend, i have a few days to be active, around last deadline I was getting smacked with hours at work :/

[DavidParker]

Okay, so...

Batt/AntB/Smash

Is our scumteam. Sound about right?

Would you, as AntB-scum, in the situation scum are now, risk confirming someone who pointed you as most obvious scum in his last twilight post ?

By the way, DavidParker, what do you think of AntB now?

(Still rereading)

There's a bit too much WIFOM in this argument for me to allow AntB to lose scumminess points. Nacho flipping town definitely doesn't win him any town points. I still see him as scummy. If it was up to me right now my lynch order would be:

1) Smash - I don't feel he played particularly scummy as a whole yesterday, but the happenings on the last day of day phase, where he wasn't around for batt's claim and the ensuing counter claim despite posting in other sections reeks of scumminess. His defense is no better either. I had smash in the town-category until all this too...
2) AntB - I don't agree nacho's flip gives him town points at all. More than anything, it just confirms that AntB was pushing a poor case on nacho yesterday, one that I never saw much merit in. At least farside was pushing nacho's wagon for meta-reasons, whereas AntB was using faulty or weak arguments.
3) Looker (jesse) - Well.. Lurking/Stalling, and just a terrible impression I've got from this slot.

Actually, I'd probably prefer an AntB lynch to Smash's. I don't see Smash being scum with either of the two other players, so I'd probably hold off on his wagon.

Vote: AntB

[DavidParker]

Oh man, that slip is a result of me being in too many games. Forgot who replaced who. That's as far as I'll go for excuses, nothing really to defend, it was a mistake.

[DavidParker]

I have never been in favor of posting player-by-player analysis, for the very reason you stated. Just like I'm against posting all my town reads.

[DavidParker]

I wasn't sure what you meant. It was a slip none-the-less and could have been perceived as town or scum I guess :/

[DavidParker]

Lol? Is that you mentioning it so you can bring it up later for a lynch? it's a one line post. It should be pretty clear right now what's wrong with it. And I see what's wrong with it, but it's mostly just representative of andrew's fail-play.

[DavidParker]

Oh, Andrew is definitely a scum possibility that I'm not ignoring at this point, but the phrase "something just nagging at me that i can't put a finger on" makes no sense because it was blatantly obvious what was wrong with andrew's post to me.

[DavidParker]

Well, Egg doesn't really need "justification" for his choice. He's confirmed town. I'd just like him to actually post his suspects and where we should go from here.

[DavidParker]

Andrew is scum, if not then kill me.

I hate posts like this :/

[DavidParker]

I realize my content has been lacking of late, even my lasts posts have sucked. I'll definitely be able to post more soon I have the weekend off work.

@lord_hur: well.. Obvious reasons. For one thing, we lynch Andrew and he flips town... Will antb actually sacrifice himself at that point? no. So the post is a lie for a start. It's just a way of AntB saying, "Hey I am 80-90% sure andrew is scum". But he's posted in such a way that it is really ATE because he knows he is a likely lynch candidate so he is getting desperate at this point to put the lynch on anyone but himself. I see it more likely to come from scum than town, as there's more motive for scum to say "lynch this guy and if he flips town then lynch me" from a slot that has a probable lynch candidate. Essentially, I can see antb trying to get a mislynch before his own lynch, rather than seeing himself lynched today, then andrew appearing town because of a scum-flip on himself.

I don't see why town-AntB would have posted as such.

[DavidParker]

I realize my content has been lacking of late, even my lasts posts have sucked. I'll definitely be able to post more soon I have the weekend off work.

@lord_hur: well.. Obvious reasons. For one thing, we lynch Andrew and he flips town... Will antb actually sacrifice himself at that point? no. So the post is a lie for a start. It's just a way of AntB saying, "Hey I am 80-90% sure andrew is scum". But he's posted in such a way that it is really ATE because he knows he is a likely lynch candidate so he is getting desperate at this point to put the lynch on anyone but himself. I see it more likely to come from scum than town, as there's more motive for scum to say "lynch this guy and if he flips town then lynch me" from a slot that has a probable lynch candidate. Essentially, I can see antb trying to get a mislynch before his own lynch, rather than seeing himself lynched today, then andrew appearing town because of a scum-flip on himself.

I don't see why town-AntB would have posted as such.

I agree with this post up to the point where David says he thinks it comes more from scum than town. It's textbook "town who thinks he has an awesome read that nobody else is going for", and in my experience it's primarily townie-on-townie crime.

Ah well usually except, antb is coming from a top-lynch slot, so using hte "lynch this guy then me" argument can be seen as coming from scum. If he's coming from a completely town slot/perspective then its likely tonw on town, or town on scum, but it's not.

[DavidParker]

Hey guys, you can blame Emp for my lack of content. I was flattered into replacing into his 30 page Large game recently and have almost managed (well kinda) to catch up. I promise I won't leave you guys.