Open 283 - Masons and Monks

[MrTrow]

/confirm
I'm blue, da ba dee da ba dai

[MrTrow]

I haven`t read 'the reference' yet beyond the opening post, but are you suggesting we:
- policy-lynch pre content based on scum-actions in a previous game
- which we cannot discuss without violating the site`s 'first 2 rules of fightclub' limitation which is still in effect for it?

[MrTrow]

i can see 2 ways to read that last post:
1: You`re glad to hear he`s better, but do not consider it a good thing he`s catching up.
Which sounds like stating you have something to hide to me.
2: You`re not glad he`s playing:
Why would you feel the need to emphasize the 'mutual dislikes' (previously stated),
on a player who had signed up for this game before you did 'To play with my pals from another game.'

Also:

@Park... Voting base on vibe? And why are you so keen in lynching? You even tried lynching b4 the game started.

!Vote park, May change my mind if his answers are pro-town

It wasnt really trying to lynch. It was called random votes to make people start talking.
Your usage of word "lynch" is just too much for this situation.
If you want to look at people who are talking about lynching, look at people who say the word "PL".
They are targetting [aaah400] and [Magnetic (that is, you)] mainly at the moment.

Vote: Magnetic

Best get rid of him early on.

Seems to me he`s asking the right person.

VOTE: parknourie

[MrTrow]

@parknourie

I can probably explain the first half better if you state what you meant with (i was basically addressing the 2 ):

ok I'm back, not so sick any more. Catch up coming in a bit

Good thing to hear

Not really for me, but glad you are better now Strung.

As for the 'who asked what':
you didn`t ask anything(magnetic did):
you voted Magnetic during confirmation 'best get rid of him early on'
later he asks you 'And why are you so keen in lynching?'
you point to the policy-lynchers instead.
While you were the one leading the policy(even pointed it out again while stating a 'no......' on aaah`s policy-lynch).

I see no reason why ,asuming magnetic should ask about the policy lynch over his head to someone involved in it, he was incorrect in asking you.

[MrTrow]

sorry i`m late
appearantly i finally managed to get sick.(has been 5 years i believe)
and yesterday the site started throwing sql-errors at me when i was trying to respond.

@twistedspoon:(about the wonderfull timing of your claim)
well.......
PR: it does make any future PR-claims harder to believe (translate: unless your partner speaks up no-one will believe you, effectively outing your another one if you`re ever under pressure)
Non-PR: you`ve limited the 'pool' in which scum hunts for these roles.

so why did you?

@Budja:
how did you conclude obv-town-twistedspoon? (i can`t find any reason to assume this)

on a lighter note:
as for the TGTEOYT-debate: that`s exactly the 'attack': they are being watched(IGMEOY) for not taking any action(lurking(may hurt town), or disapearing(will hurt game)), they watch(TGTEOYT): how is watching but not taking action different from lurking? (i believe your 'no' is incorrect)

@Escho:
aaah400 did the right thing here: one should claim if (and almost only if) at L-1 and someone (not already voting this person) shows intend to hammer.
I see no problems with this: 'i still stand by my suspicions, please claim' post.

[MrTrow]

@Budja: i see how it`s not clearly a scummy action: as it only hurts town if TS isn`t scum. I`m still not convinced it`s an obv-town tell though

@Twistedspoon:

so why did you?

I`ll be V/LA this weekend

[MrTrow]

Can we lynch aaah400 now?

I`d say: no.

Although i disagree with the way the hammer happened:
Why wait for a claim if you`re going to hammer anyway.
Especially in a setup where no town-powerroles can clear anyone: (only werewolf-mason and mafia-monk have a confirmed innocent).
and all powerrole-fullclaims id another powerrole.
The additional discussion resulting from the claim as well as admiral`s initial read-results were clearly cut short.

I do not consider it a scum-move, as the main reasonable scum motivation in doing this is to prevent the replacement-fresh-perspective.
The fact admiral survived the night clearly proves this was not the case.

That being said: i do see how someone who didn`t look at motivation(no matter how bad that fact is by itsself) can consider such a hammer a scumread.
As well as anyone who basically OMGUSes the case.

[MrTrow]

Ok done with my (first of probably many)reread(s) (again sorry for the wait, no it was not all reread):

first of all aaah400:
the 'wall o 3 fosses' contained Budja`s post up until that point(and analysis why he deserves one of those 3 fosses)
His entire second post is written off as a copy-paste-error.
He should know this to be incorrect as the second post contained only the copied content(why even make the post if that was all)
Also the 'copied content' that this was about was actually a pre-game vote.
More specifically: it was THE(ok 1 of the 2) pre-game votes why he himself asked the mod if pre-game-votes are allowed only 4 days before.
This makes the case seem staged to me.

That being said i do believe my 'non-scum' explenation of other actions remains valid.


Twistedspoon:

Yes it was. Just made it seem not random :/

So you`re saying that you 'rolled a dice' or something and made up something that should pass as a valid reason to vote afterwards?

- why try to hide it was random?
- why not show more of these reasons for your next 20 dice-results.

Also there is another question you still haven`t answered.

VOTE: twistedspoon

Fos aaah400

[MrTrow]

vatesi, Magnetic. I want reasons why you're not voting.

I will begin looking for replacements for the people who haven't picked up their prods yet.

Also there is another question you still haven`t answered.

[MrTrow]

uhm....... Strungover: that quote pyramid remark probably shouldn`t be taken as 'please find another way to make sure the same statement is on this page so very often'
In case the 2 quotes on top weren`t clear: don`t count on vatesi or magnetic on this one


@Twistedspoon

then tell me it

@twistedspoon:(about the wonderfull timing of your claim)
well.......
PR: it does make any future PR-claims harder to believe (translate: unless your partner speaks up no-one will believe you, effectively outing your another one if you`re ever under pressure)
Non-PR: you`ve limited the 'pool' in which scum hunts for these roles.

so why did you?

@Budja: i see how it`s not clearly a scummy action: as it only hurts town if TS isn`t scum. I`m still not convinced it`s an obv-town tell though
@Twistedspoon:

so why did you?

Ow and don`t use it as an excuse not to respond to this one:

So you`re saying that you 'rolled a dice' or something and made up something that should pass as a valid reason to vote afterwards?

- why try to hide it was random?
- why not show more of these reasons for your next 20 dice-results.

also i went over your iso: quite interresting
6 times a post about how slow this game is and we need to 'up the tempo'
followed by 2 remarks about what`s wrong about such a sudden nightfall: 'mafia must be eager to talk' and cutting off ThAdmiral`s initial read
followed by 'night took forever, some of us don`t have qt`s'(which is nothing more than reenforcing your VT claim for no appearant reason) and 'there is nothing wrong with that hammer'(you know: the one that served your 'must be eager to talk')

[MrTrow]

I still don't understand your question.
If it's about my claim;

Yes it is: I wanted to know why you claimed VT(with only a single vote on you) while it doesn`t help you if you`re scum, hurts you if you`re town.
Taking 'not a clue myself' as the answer until you tell me otherwise.

As for the second question(or actually a set of questions):
you claimed your vote on the GiD-wagon was random and you put some effort in it to not make it seem random.
1. why? (i see no motivation what so ever in hiding this)
2. if you can find (non-bs) reasons to vote a random person: show some

Looks like the ultimate lost-townie play:
worst role for anyone actually town.
quite effective play for scum (as long as there aren`t some games out there that can prove this thing a fake)

Strung = werewolf

Werewolf, eh?

Nice one: first time i considered it as just a way to divide the 2 teams as it contained the identity of 3 scum.
in this one there`s not much left of this excuse.
Indeed the most likely way one can tell the different scumteams apart, is by being a member of the other team.

As in the the more certain I am that aaah is scum, just to clear that up.

Although the people not voting are probably scum as well.

So if we insta-lynch aaah, we probably hit a townie, while if we wait a little longer we hit scum AND id at least his partner(or one from the other team)?
I don`t see the problem

[MrTrow]

@StrungOver
Appeal to Emotion?
Where?
There`s no appeal or anything in there. (it`s just another empty attack, not that much unlike your 'awful person' remark)

@aaah:
I asume you can do better:
In your next post i`d like to see:
- a decent response to the 'how did you manage to find the difference between mafia and werewolf'-argument.
- (or) a reason why strung should die (as in be lynched) that IS relevant to the game
- and i want it in a post not containing any pointless personal attacks on anyone

@TwistedSpoon:
we`re you answering someone else?
or did you just say you consider:
- calling something antitown, soon followed by doing that very same thing yourself and refusing any comments about it
- randomly voting a wagon(3rd wagon: rvs excuses not really possible) and hide the

fact

it was random from the town
- basically not answering/reading anything
a playstyle?

[MrTrow]

@HackerHuck:
Welcome.

I agree that Twisted's claim seems very townie

Sorry still not seeing it.

As for your view of my 'keeping his own hands clean'(#81), have you seen the original (#78)?

@mrtrow: Convince me to vote twistedspoon over aaah.

TwistedSpoon:
- claimed for no good reason (after stating it`s anti-town himself)
- is interrested in nothing else than speeding up the game (even though he seems to be unable to keep up as it is)
- started day 2 with complaining about the length of the night in a post that served no other purpose than to point out he`s a VT once more
- has admitted using a playstyle that doesn`t help town (and may be the ultimate scum-hideout if people buy it)
- refused to answer 'so you can come up with vote-worthy reasons on random people? give me (lets say) 20'
in short his play seems fake to me. Still have to check his other games to confirm

That being said:
I`m not saying aaah400 isn`t scum(he probably is).
I just believe we should id more than 1 scum today: don`t forget we have another weapon against scum than just the lynch (the other scumteam)
If we can tell the mafia the identity of a werewolf and the other way around(leaving the who`s who to them) we eliminate 2 or even 3 scum instead of just 1.
(which given the current 6-4(ok actually 6-2-2 but still) is something we need)

As for the lynch i`m in favor of twistedspoon for the following reason:
aaah will die anyway. if we don`t lynch him, opposing scumteam will take him out.

[MrTrow]

While your point about the crosskills is valid, it doesn't explain why you wouldn't want to lynch aaah if he's scum. Your logic works the same way that the opposing scum team would also want to kill Twistedspoon if we lynch aaah today.

Good point. If that opposing team believes this person to be scum.
Which i (as appearantly very few) believe TS to be, where there are many who believe aaah to be.
Therefore the odds of scum believing aaah to be the opposite team are higher than the same deal regarding TS.

I have no problem what so ever with who gets lynched and who is left to the nightkill,
what i did have a problem with was going into the night, in need of this crossfire (without it(whether it`s tonight or later) we`re at mylo (lylo if we also disregard the 'they`re targeting the same person'-possibility)) with my top-2 scumread labelled (nearly undebated) obv-town my 3 people.

Well not now that you've said that!

Why not? (don`t answer it)
With the current numbers scum are more of a threat to eachother than town is to them.
Granted, aaah has become a 'may be safer for us to leave alive, will be lynched anyway' by the previous statements.

Considering this from my pov as well aaah has become the better lynch of the 2.

@Snake: good to see you again.

Your call whether or not we`re waiting for a replacement to claim.

Spoiler: My strongest arguement either way isn`t really a game-wise one

I consider it 'somewhat not nice' to have someone brought in and read the game, only to kill them off after a single post

I`m also okay with a hammer

[MrTrow]

I also think it is borderline unfair for someone to have to replace in to that slot.

That kinda was my (spoiler)point

UNVOTE:
VOTE: aaah400

[MrTrow]

@Snake: Who`s opinion on what were you waiting for?
The only discussion at that moment was: Are we going to wait for a replacement?

@TwistedSpoon:

I'm really surprised budja was targeted. He wasn't a strong town read for me. I guess that means one of the strong town reads is werewolf or scum :/

That`s quite an 'out of playstyle'-analysis.
Intended to fake your view on (your own) budja-kill?

VOTE: Twistedspoon

[MrTrow]

So you think he'd call for a policy lynch on his mate?

first response: yes.
Getting people to actually go through with a policy-lynch is hard enough (read easy enough to 'just let it fail')
It`s less dangerous when calling for it on 2 players at the same time.
Final thing to consider was the reason for the PL(main reason for the 'yes').
Who`s more likely to get PL`ed?: the just plain rude one. / the one that claims scum

However when checking: this last point happened after the original PL-call,
and i don`t believe in the concept of a player who`s both:
- manipulative enough to claim scum in one game to enhance the 'ploy' above in another
- disrespectful to the game to actually claim scum

So: no, i don`t believe Huck to be SO`s buddy

[MrTrow]

THAT WAS NOT THE HAMMER

my vote is on twistedSpoon atm.

You are correct, the vote count has been edited.

[MrTrow]

anyawys, I wouldn't mind a trow lynch but I prefer this one.

Votecount 3.2
3.. Escho - 3 Twistedspoon, MrTrow, HackerHuck

it's good to see that my top 2 town reads are on this wagon too :3

makes me feel we'll get a good lynch at last; we should do with escho

So: could you tell us what changed in the meantime?
or should we just asume you 'wouldn`t mind' a 'top 2 townread' lynch?


Talking about 'yesterday-like situations':

@Snake: Who`s opinion on what were you waiting for?

[MrTrow]

@Snake: Could you answer the question?

[MrTrow]

Talking about 'yesterday-like situations':

@Snake: Who`s opinion on what were you waiting for?

in response to

I was waiting on a few peoples opinions and then he jumps in anyway?

[MrTrow]

@Snake: only 2 responses?

Before your

confirmation request

:

Vote: Aaah400

Someone better be willing to hammer, because we got scum here.

I'm really just waiting for a aaah lynch here .

vatesi, Magnetic. I want reasons why you're not voting.
Hammer aaah for us.

this

This

THIS!

After your

confirmation request

:

It depends on whether you would hammer regardless of a claim.

I know I would.

I don't think it's worth waiting

I`m also okay with a hammer

I also think it is borderline unfair for someone to have to replace in to that slot.

I say hammer and be done with it.

hammer

a replacement hasn't even been found yet; there's no one 'to be rude' to.

If we don't get a hammer then the non-aaah voters are prime scum candidates for me in day 2

How much confirmation do you want?

Also it`s weird (to say the least):
You need additional confirmation with this list. Even base your top scumread on not waiting for this list to become even bigger.
But having no problem with hammering an

unconfirmed

banned player within 3 hours of a claim request

with your top scumread on the wagon

(i wasn`t but you believed i was)

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Snake

[MrTrow]

@ TS: Snake didn`t choose not to hammer.

@ Flinter: As for your 'snake hammered' case: consider it added to what i want Snake to answer.
As for your: 'nobody said anything about it': that simply isn`t true: Andrew asked the very same question
@Snake, this combination indeed means i consider your answer insufficient

[MrTrow]

@Andrew: Flinter missed your question, i simply pointed it out.

@Snake: time to get the question as clear as possible.
- You consider me your top scum-read.
- I was a mayor part (1/3) of the wagon on Escho(flinter)
- We`re with 4 town up against 3 scum(al be it divided in 2 teams)
- Escho`s slot was in no way 'doomed to be lynched' like aaah`s was
- The ban was being handled (confirmation in progress,prod has been sent, just in case it isn`t true)
- You claim your hammer was 'merely to move the game on'

Could you please justify:
Jumping on a wagon with your top scumread, to (quick)hammer a player that is explicitly-mod-unconfirmed banned, not obviously the only lynch-candidate for the day?
- Just to speed things up a bit?

[MrTrow]

Was fun. thanks everyone (well at least everyone still allowed here)

@TwistedSpoon: i still find it hard to believe you pretty much dared me to read those other games.
I did(parts of, some), and there is some handywork in there.
I`d like to play with you again, however preferably with another playstyle.

@ThAdmiral: i see nothing wrong with that shot (although i was expecting it to hit Snake)
About the 'id more than 1 scum a day' thing. Yeah.. if it would have helped the mafia as much as i wanted it for the 'wolves`-agenda' this still could have gotten into a new day

@Snake: I`m still curious though: why didn`t you answer my questions?

@Huck: your reason why mafia would have killed GiD was quite helpfull (effectively giving up a town-monk-claim)
As for your 'if Trow is scum, why is TS still alive': well.. can`t argue with a hard to reach partner with a strong gut-read
@Andrew: Thanks, good call on that one.

@Flinter: for a moment i thought you were quite dangarous: your town-reads on andrew and myself, smelled like a town-gambit the second time i read them.

[MrTrow]

in short his play seems fake to me. Still have to check his other games to confirm

go for it.

and the games i read are mostly still ongoing, so i can`t get specific.
your marathon-days dethy didn`t give any info (but that was to be expected)
actually i opened all non-marathon (non mish-mash) games you`ve posted in at that time, and started reading (never got to the ones that are actually finished)