Open 272 - Near-Vanilla (Over!)

ConSpiracy · Post Post #707 (isolation #0) » Sun Feb 27, 2011 4:08 am

First thing first:

Call me CS Goddammit!

I hate the abb Con

I will reread + post my thoughts either tomorrow or tuesday.

ConSpiracy · Post Post #714 (isolation #1) » Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:41 pm

Magua wrote:VOTE: Conspiracy Welcome to the game.

Thanks...

So I am now somewhere around page 10. If I don't have fully read it today, you will get it tomorrow.

ConSpiracy · Post Post #724 (isolation #2) » Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:12 am

I have read everything and I liked how the situation is.
Day 1 had a scumlynch, which is always good. On top of that it gives us information about some players.
Night 1 had a nacho kill. This was probably a bad kill to choose for the mafia. Nacho was a hot topic day 1 and knowing he is town gave us a lot of information.
I have some scumreads, with one being the biggest. Listen en nod to what I have to say

Farside22

She hasn't cruised through the thread without any accusations now and then, but she hasn't been attacked seriously. She has some experience, after all she is one of the most important scummers on the site and has played a lot of games, many people can confirm that. However, what she did in this thread wasn't experienced enough to hide her scummyness from the townies. She is scum and this is why:

The crawlback of the Nacho case

Farside started her suspicion of nacho on the very first post she made (leaving alone the confirm post) and she didn't back it off for a long time. On friday 21^th of Januari she says this:

farside wrote:After reading Nacho's scum suspect list I'm more certain then ever he is scum.

Nothing wrong with that, she had a legitimate scum read on Nacho. She wanted to lynch him and only him on that moment. However, one and two days later she suddenly posts this: (spoilered for length reason)

Spoiler: farside's crawlback

Although she declared Nacho scum a short time ago, she shows a sign of hunting for others. Actually, she even voted for somebody else: andrew. If she, as town, really was dead-set on Nacho as she has said a couple of times, she wouldn't have done that. The Nacho lynch and only the Nacho lynch was going up at that moment and she wanted Nacho to be lynched.
She knew as scum she would be wrong about Nacho and therefore she needed the town points by showing she isn't only on Nacho.
The reason to vote andrew was also very bad in comparison to her reasons to vote for nacho. Andrew not contributing made her vote come from Nacho, the obvious careful non-jerky scum.
To amplify this argument even more I have to quote Nacho: (friday 21^th)

Nachomamma wrote:This, coming from you? Who has been tunneling me all game? Do you even have a 4 player scum suspect list with "fleshed out" reasons?

She was called out for tunneling. Although the tunneling wasn't very big, there certainly was some tunneling. She mentions other players only with saying: I don't really like that, that is scummy, etc. Nachomamma, however, was "obvious scum" all the time. The change of vote was a nice way to prevent people from continuing the tunneling case. She didn't change her vote immediately, because that would be scummy, but waiting for 2 days negates the "nervous scum" reaction. I admit, this tunneling argument isn't very strong, but together with the rest of this point it certainly strengthens the suspicions towards farside.

Farside's stalling on Battousai

When Battousai replaces in, the first thing she does is voting for him. She voted for him because he didn't give enough reasons for the statements he made. (read the spoiler)The vote itself is neither good nor bad. She did have a point, but it is far away from her nacho case.
Anyways, in her next post she unvoted Battousai for this reason: (spoiled for length reasons again)

Spoiler: Farside's (un)vote of Battousai

She is back to Nacho again. In the Battousai unvote she barely mentions Battousai himself, only that he defended well. Was defending his statements the only reason to vote and unvote for him? Why voting for him in the first place anyway and not, as Lord_Hur did, just ask him why? The vote for Battousai is a bad vote and has a striking resemblance with a scum bussing vote.
Speaking of bussing, that brings me further to this post. I hate this post: (reasons for spoiling must be known by now)

Spoiler: farside's bussing

This post is a very smart post from scum. She didn't really have to answer it, but it can't be considered to be said just to make herself better. With this post she made every bus attempt she made day 1 (under the condition she is scum) incredibly WIFOMish. This post came week before her (un)vote on Battousai and when Battousai would flip scum, she can use this as a reason for her "bussing". I know this can't be considered as a strong reason, but it definitely stands out.

Anyways, let's get back to farside's stalling. In the posts after the unvote of Battousai and the vote on Nacho, she defends Battousai a bit. This line stood out:

farside wrote:How on earth can you classify Batt's shifting, unsure defence that still makes no sense as "posting well under pressure"?

Didn't she partially unvoted him because she liked her defence, which is now said to be shifting and unsure? This just strengthens the bussing vote at start. On top of that, this isn't the only time she is contradicting herself about Battousai's defence. There are a couple of contradictions to be found in the thread, most of them already pointed out by Lord_Hur at the end of day 1.
When the deadline approaches and a day 1 lynch has to be reached quickly, she makes a list of people she suspects. Let's give her defence of Battousai: (spoiled, etc.)

Spoiler: farside's third scumsuspect

There were two votes on Battousai and he was the main event every body talked about. Before this post she had only defended him (apart from the vote of course) and suddenly Battousai is her third scumsuspect. That is odd, since she wouldn't defend her third scumsuspect that much as she did. This is also a tipical habit for scum: While hammering on town being lynched, saying that a scumpartner can be scum, as well.
In future posts Battousai is only mentioned as a third suspect. The same as what I said before: (...)

Spoiler: farside's Battousai mention

Again, very typical for scum to mention scumbuddies in that particular way.
At last I want to put forward the sudden suspicion of AntB. Although Nacho is continuusly pushing for AntB, he is still voting for Battousai. The votecount at that moment is in the spoiler. She knows that a Nacho lynch wasn't likely to happen, since nobody posted any suspicions towards Nacho in the last few pages. The Bella case was minor so that left Battousai. Knowing that an AntB lynch was as likely to happen as a Battousai lynch as long as the wagons were the same size, she voted for AntB

without any reason:

(read the spoiler)

Spoiler: farside's vote for AntB

That way she might shift the Battousai lynch to an AntB lynch saving her scumbuddy. This point is taking a lot of assumptions, but reading the thread this is very likely to be true. Especially with her not giving any reasons why AntB is scummy at all, just a possible scum team assumption.

All of this points out to farside being a scumbuddy with battousai.

Farside's day two play.

She didn't do something structural during day 2. At least it is hard to find, since we are still in day 2. However, some minor things during day 2 are scummy.
This was her first post:

farside22 wrote:
Vote: AntB

This vote is based on the lack of comment from AntB in regards to Batt. He never stated any suspicion, he tried to push more on lynching Bella or Nacho and avoided talking about Batt and his play at all.

This was her first post. I know it isn't that bad, but I just wanted to point it out. This post reeks of nighttalk framing AntB.

farside22 wrote:
Egg wrote:Should I say who I jailed?
I say you should too, but this doesn't clear anyone. I just want to know why and who so I can get your frame of mind.

This is just a scum claim to me. Why would a town player want to have that? This is very, very scummy.

farside22 wrote:I want to remind people in case AntBscum tries to fake claim what he said earlier in the game.

AntB wrote: I will happily die (and even self hammer) if my flip will provide sufficient information, and even as scum if I feel it will throw the trail off my scumbuddies. However, my death now will provide nothing but a lot of "meh!"

This post is very stupid. We can't bust AntB any more if he would fake-claim (Then it would be 8-1 with 2 confirmed townies). She either wanted:
1. To help AntB with not fake-claiming
2. To get some town points.
3. To tell town that if AntB is indeed the doc, he should be lynched anyways.
She is experienced enough to know a fake-claim would only be for the better, especially with the AntB lynch not going through for 100%. The WIFOMish talk after this, because Lord_Hur saw this, too, is not enough reason to say this. Telling town a possibility of what can happen... Scummy indeed.

The only conclusion I can get from this is:
VOTE: farside22
Please lynch this scum town, he gave himself away.

A TLDR

1. Although saying Nacho was certainly scum and would be lynched, she shifted her attention from him to Andrew.
2. Farside bussed Battousai at start, then defended him, then got him as her third suspect (which is a scumtell), then tried to get through an AntB lynch instead of a Battousai lynch. This all if heavily implying a farside-battousai scumteam.
3. She gave us some big scumtells day 2, such as wanting to know Egg's frame of mind and posting AntB couldn't fake-claim before he claimed.

All others I have a fairly good read on, either scum or town and just a few neutrals. I will get to those another time, this wall was time consuming as hell.

ConSpiracy · Post Post #735 (isolation #3) » Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:39 am

farside22 wrote:1. I do spread my votes when I find more then one person scummy.
I don't hold a vote entirely on one player throughout the day if I'm unsure of others.
I learned voting a player gets more attention and response then just asking questions.
2. Can't bus, since I'm not scum. Yes I know how it looks. I saw it myself, but seriously if you want to research my games, if I see a scum buddy in trouble I would keep my vote on them and not be back and forth. (IE: I'm not stupid scum)
3. Egg has been a bit quiet. A part of me wanted to almost tell him not to use JK as a doc protect and use it more to find scum and stop the kill. I wasn't sure what Egg's purpose was.
I already explain at least 4 times why I pointed out Ant's comment. I disagree and will continue to disagree that outing a doctor is a pro-town thing.

1. I can get into that, only the situation is bad:
a) Nacho had 4 votes, all of the others had just 1 vote. Deadline was near, so a Nacho lynch was very likely to happen.
b) You were more than certain that Nacho were scum, while you voted for andrew just for lack of content purposes. There is a difference between those.
c) Though minor, I still think this applies. You were called out for tunneling a few days before and you suddenly changed your vote. You have said a few times you found others suspicious before, but not voted for them.
2. Meh, this will just get very WIFOMish. It really looks like you are bussing.
3. That is not even close to what you said to him. You could also say that without knowing his target night 1.
4. AntB's fake-claim bust got WIFOMish, too. Every body may either agree or disagree with it, more discussion is not able this.

I must say you made a great point for Egg's target

@Egg: I advise you to use your Jailkeep rather as a roleblocker than as a doctor.

Magua wrote:Conspiracy: The case is impressively detailed, a lot more detailed than the notes I wrote up on Farside, but I *really* don't like Conspiracy coming in and tunneling Farside to the exclusion of everyone else. The case very much has a kitchen-sinkish feel to it, where everything, even stuff that's not really scummy, is getting thrown in to make it look better.

It's not that I haven't had the same thoughts on Farside -- it's to be so singleminded in the pursuit that *this* person is scum that's setting off my warning bells.

I know that, but there is a reason for that. When I replace in, I always first read the thread and determine (using the +/- scumpoints system) who I find suspicious and who I think is town. Farside was by far the most suspicious player and therefore I started laying out my thoughts on her. Others would have their turn as well, but I was tired after the long case on farside wich took very long to make. That is why I said this:

me,CS wrote:All others I have a fairly good read on, either scum or town and just a few neutrals. I will get to those another time, this wall was time consuming as hell.

I will make a list of the other players today. (not as detailed as the farside case, because I am certain nobody would read another wall)

Lord_Hur wrote:I don't much like your reasons for me being town though, as I would play like this even if I were scum (well, I'd just think twice about it if one of them were a scum mate). After me saying I believe DavidParker to be town, and seeing that I'm the only town listed, the paranoïd part in me screams scum trying to buddy up.

Lord,*cough*not buddying up*cough*, but I thought exactly the same about Magua's post. David Parker was extremely townish so I regard that spot as town, but some things in the catch up were a little bit "getting easy town points".

So let's spend some time laying down my views on others.

ConSpiracy · Post Post #737 (isolation #4) » Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:33 am

My thoughts on other people:

Andrew

Although he is inactive and doesn't do much and attacks mostly the wrong players, his attacks seem town. On top of that:

Magua wrote:I don't like reading his posts, stylistically, but if his D1 interaction with Batt was a bus, I'll eat my hat.

Town

AntB

I don't have any experience with AntB, but I consider him to be the easy mislynch target both day 1 and day 2. He plays very VIish and newbish (no offence, but you do) and likes to use emotions in his attacks. On top of that, I think farside is scum and farside can't be AntB's scumbuddy.
Just one minor thing that didn't sit well with me was this:

AntB wrote:
@MOD: I just realise your last vote count is wrong, lord_hur unvoted at the bottom of pg25.

Reading this gave me the feeling AntB was nervous scum and continuusly checking the votecount to base his accusation on this. Scum tend to do that Since all of his suspicions were based on emotion (i.e. on the people who thought he was scummy), I am giving this a pass. (And the other reasons were far better about AntB being town)

Town

Archer

I definitely don't like the way he plays, since it is similar to AntB's play (very much appeal to emotion, etc). I don't like her mentioning of lurky people, especially when she made less post than for example andrew and AntB. However, the play is very VIish (as pointed out earlier by others). She also voted fourth for Battousai when both Batt and Nacho had three votes. It can be bussing to get the Battousai lynch up, but I sincerely doubt it. Especially with Lord_Hur mentioning the post before she would like a Nacho lynch for the information.

Neutral-town

Bella

I could start my own story about Bella, but I completely agree with this. So to make a long story short:

Magua wrote:I hate the vote withholding thing gone over in 580. I have circled and underlined Bella's "If you try looking again, I'd look at more recent games than not recent games, because I've really hardened against the notion that you should have your vote on someone at all times over the last 6-12 months or so." in 580 vs "I don't really have the time to spend researching my own behavior for you and the only other game that jumps to mind is ongoing and thus is useless. Umm... there might be something in Secret Invasion mafia about how I use my votes, but I don't remember that very well because of the reasons I replaced out of it." when Farside tries to actually look it up.

That said, Bella's early attack on Battousai and second place on the Battousai wagon is a heavy towntell. Bus, bus, yeah, possible, etc, but to do it so early and so out of the blue, I'm not buying.

Neutral-town

Brokenscraps

Wait who? Seriously, she has completely flown under the radar and isn't been mentioned at all. She hasn't done a thing, which is bad, bad, bad.

Neutral-scum

Looker

Hasn't done a thing, just as Brokenscraps. Doesn't have an opinion in my eyes, since he doesn't pursue anything. And this, too:

Magua wrote:All-over-there votes (5 for D2) feels like someone trying to find a wagon, any wagon. Furthermore, I get zero read that Looker is trying to push a lynch on someone he thinks scummy -- that is, none of the votes are accompanied by any desire to have other people lynch the person being voted. Questions are asked of individuals, but nothing along the lines of, "I think X is scum, how about you vote him?"

Neutral-scum

Lord_Hur

She is great in calling out other people for scummy behavior. She is also looking at other things than the usual hot topics, such as AntB. If she is scum, I will it my hat. (luckily I don't have a hat with me)

Obvious town

Egg

This guy is scummy as hell. He doesn't do a thing and he is lurking the hell out of this thread. The lurking can be explained with lack of reading:

Egg wrote:That means I won't vote whoever replaced david, looker, antb, or lord. Archer would be my first choice followed by whoever replaced smashbro. After that would basically be a tossup between Farside, Bella, Andrew, and Broken.

but doesn't take away the annoying lurking. Oh wait, he is the jailkeeper? NVM, I didn't say anything.

Obvious town

Soo...
I am calling it right now:
Scumteam is:
1. Battousai, farside, Brokenscraps
2. Battousai, farside, Looker
At the moment I think the Looker one is more likely.

ConSpiracy · Post Post #744 (isolation #5) » Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:29 pm

farside22 wrote:1. I already said why I thought Batt's comment came off more town. I don't recall ever see scum pushing people to lynch even if it is themselves to be lynched. He tricked me good, kodos.
b) I would have to look, back, but I'm pretty sure during that time Nacho was on V/LA or MIA. Either way I decided to ask others I found suspicious questions, again I use my vote to make is clear I'm suspicious of them.
c) I have one vote. I will also keep it on the person I believe to be the most scum. When I switched it back to Nacho, he was still my top scum suspect. When I switched it to Batt's I didn't care for his entrance or comments and voted for him because I would expect Batt's to have more then calling the leading lynch scum and no points on anyone else. That's hella scummy.
2) It's not WIFOM to me. You had it on your points I responded on why your wrong.
3) I try my best if I think someone seems to be newbish, not to treat them like they don't know how to play the game. It's insulting to a person's intelligence to tell them what to do. Seriously
4) Again you made it a point on why you think I'm scum. I'm answering and responding why it's not the correct point.

1. I don't know what you meant with that, but I don't think it has anything to do with what I said. If I am wrong please correct me, but I can't see any resemblance.
b) Nacho said he was V/LA for a day back then, so the V/LA thing doesn't count. You also didn't ask questions to him. (For your convenience, viewtopic.php?p=2745809#p2745809thiswas the post I referred to)
c) Aren't you contradicting yourself right now? You will put it on the one you believe is the most scum, but you will also put it on players to ask questions or if they made a scummy action.
2. This will get very wifomish:

farside wrote:2. Can't bus, since I'm not scum.

I feel a "yes-no" game coming up. If you have the time, I would like to link a game in which you were bussing your scumpartner pretty hard.
3. That is not the point. You asked him about his night action to get to know his "frame of mind." That has nothing to do with someone playing newbish. What would you do when you knew his night action? Telling him he was wrong and should target others? There are only negative side on that.
4. That may be true, but we will just be playing a "yes-no" game when we are going further on this. This is the WIFOM thingie:

farside wrote:I disagree and will continue to disagree that outing a doctor is a pro-town thing.

How are we able to discuss this if you will just disagree it? That is not possible.

farside wrote:I notice he that you call both AntB and Archer VIish speaking with their emotions. Can you explain why that makes them town, when AntB hasn't presented a case worth a crap. And most of day one Archer leaned on mostly Egg with a chance of Bella. I'm almost certain Archer is scum as well.

VIs are usually the mislynch-targets for scum to push for. AntB was a hot topic day 1 and players were nagging on archer throughout the game. The cases on them are usually the same: "bad scumhunting. OMGUSing, etc" while real scum gets better cases: "sudden changes of play, META inconsistencies, nervous responses, structural lurking, etc" Seeing that the case on AntB/Archer consists of VI reasons, AntB/Archer is more of a VI and therefore protown. This isn't an obvious town tell, by the way. It is just something to keep in mind and with a more neutral read this pushes in the town direction.

farside wrote:@Magua/LH - His list looks almost identical to your reads. A part of me felt like he was copying you and your reads. If I get lynched I want you both to remember his comments here and see who he attacks tomorrow. I'm not sold on him personally. I've seen scum attack players like myself who played a horrible town game to win town points. Nothing should clear what SoTS was acting.

Magua wrote:Conspiracy, why am I not in your list in post 737?

For both is a reason. To be honest, I really couldn't bring to make a list all by myself because I made the farsidecase yesterday. I agreed with Magua's list about most players and that is why I used that list as the basis of my list. That is also why I forgot Magua, because he isn't on his own list. Anyways:

-----

Magua

Replacing DP. DP's case on Egg was a good case and defenitely deserved townpoints. This mention of Battousai:

Battousai wrote:227- DavidParker is distancing = scum if nacho is town

Almost makes him confirmed town. A Nacho lynch was very likely to happen if Battousai himself didn't screw up. Why saying David is scum if Nacho is town while knowing Nacho would be lynched and would flip town? Because he would be a great second mislynch to put forward.
At last I played a game with DavidParker and he played exactly the same in that game. He was town in that game, so yeah...

obvious town

------

farside wrote:@Magua
Not my worst town game, but horrible compared to my past game. I see a sliding rope and I think fuck I really do have garbage of the mouth this game. I'm predicting my lynch today based on Archer's so called attacks, AntB and will throw in the soon to be replacement. Don't know about Bella. I also predict (because I love ruining scum's game and feel a need to point it out) when I flip town, watch how fast Consp flips to AntB saying something about me being town so AntB must be scum.
I'm so certain of this crystal ball insight. I'm declaring AntB town on the bases that Consp is scum with Archer has his scum buddy.

Though I wouldn't say that immediately, my townread on him will obviously shrink. The biggest reason I think he is town, because I am almost sure you are scum. I'd rather call our lurkers out first, they are not doing a thing and are just getting a free pass during this game.

ConSpiracy · Post Post #751 (isolation #6) » Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:15 am

farside22 wrote:@Consp:

1) Seriously I'm not allowed to vote for someone else in the game? Is that really what your bitching is about? I decide when I do a vote. It happened I explained why I voted when. If other people are talking and I want to get reads on people I find scummy I will vote on them. I will vote as many times as I damn will please, because that's what I'm allowed and can only do.

2) This game I called both my scum partners scum and voted them day 1
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 76&start=0
I had to leave the game do to RL issues. The other one I recall Xtoxm was my scum partner. I can't remember the name of the game, but I remember that one the most because I pushed Xtoxm so hard people called me town, good times, good times.

3) I phrased my question so as to not to insult Egg's intelligence. Think what you want.

4) In regards to the outing of the Doctor. I had the discussion with LH. I disagree and would do my action over and over again. You call it scummy that is not a discussion that is an accusation.

1) You are, but giving reasons for your vote when those reasons do not apply and when you should act differently as town I think is scummy.
2) I read it:
a)FoS on bv310 (scum) is nothing, you mentioned him how much? Like twice or something?
b) Vote on Socio (scum) was stupid. The reason was a bit of OMGUS and you don't mention him at all between your vote on him and the next vote.
c) The DGB (rep. bv310) bussing was a "going with the crowd" bussing. You just bussed her because others attacked her. Wait, didn't you do the same with Battousai when you suddenly called him your third suspect?
Your vote on both Battousai and Socio were the same, just pretending to be suspicious of someone without doing anything with it at all. You suspicion of DGB and Batt (at the end of day 1) were basicly the same, as well. Definitely not a satisfactory answer.
3) Explain me how:

farside22 wrote:
Egg wrote:Should I say who I jailed?
I say you should too, but this doesn't clear anyone. I just want to know why and who so I can get your frame of mind.

Will tell him he had better use the roleblock part then the doc part. "Frame of mind," seriously? You know that you could ask it another way without knowing who he targeted and not discouraging him for playing.
BTW, didn't you just say you knew he was an alt? You considered him as a noob. Great scumslip.
4) Fine with me. If you are saying things, such as: I would do that regardless of my alignment, there is no discussion possible. You are experienced enough to know that saying that was a scummy thing to do.

ConSpiracy · Post Post #766 (isolation #7) » Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:15 pm

farside22 wrote:In his write up of AntB he called him VIish along with talking about his emotions. He thinks he's more town based on me scum. I can see tomorrow him saying, well farside flipped town so maybe she was right (again this is my thoughts on his comments and I would call it foreshawdowing for tomorrow).
No my townread on AntB is solely based on the comment that Conspiracy made about AntB saying me as scum attacking AntB is neutral town. He didn't say the same thing about Archer, which is why I believe them to be scum together.

You remember the game you gave me as scum? You bussed a bit on others which is the same thing as you are doing with Archer. Is it strange Archer doesn't come off as town to me when I think you are scum?

farside22 wrote:Also and point of order to Consp who quoted my post. He missed my soft claim (which I did on purpose) which tells me since he received his PM just recently. He doesn't recognize a town PM.

1) Seriously I'm not allowed to vote for someone else in the game? Is that really what your bitching is about? I decide when I do a vote. It happened I explained why I voted when. If other people are talking and I want to get reads on people I find scummy I will vote on them. I will vote as many times as I damn will please,
because that's what I'm allowed and can only do
.

unvote:
vote: Conspiracy.

That is just stupid. So I read over the softclaim so I must be scum? How the hell should I pick up the softclaim anyway when it doesn't look like the original pm? (as Lord_Hur pointed out)
You are flailing and not knowing what to do so you are trying to get fake reasons to get me more scummy. Great work scum.

@mod, is there coming a new deadline due to Looker's comeback tour? I don't want to be surprised with an no lynch.

ConSpiracy · Post Post #782 (isolation #8) » Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:41 am

farside22 wrote:
Consp scum wrote:You remember the game you gave me as scum? You bussed a bit on others which is the same thing as you are doing with Archer. Is it strange Archer doesn't come off as town to me when I think you are scum?
So how is it that you think I as scum would be bussing Archer, but not AntB. Whyif I was scum and I do buss would I not vote for Batt's at the end of the day instead of AntB?

Meh, I looked it up. You were more serious on Archer than I could remember you were. I thought you were just a bit bussing on him here and there, but you had your vote on him and continued to question him when having your vote on him. Okay, a Batt-farside-Archer combination becomes very unlikely now, too.

And for the people who are nagging about the statistics:

Statistics

We have a JK. The jailkeeper can roleblock a mafia player and stop their kill from going through. In total we will have 10 players at night. (We won't be no lynching) We will have two cases: 9 townies 1 scum. 8 townies, 2 scum.
- With 9 townies 1 scum it is easy. The scum can't decide who will send it in, so the jailkeeper will undoubtedly roleblock scum (if he jails scum off course) We can say without a doubt that the one the JK targeted will be town if the kill still went through.
- With 8 townies 2 scum it is more difficult. 20% is scum, 80% is town. The chance scum is targeted is 20%, but the chance that the targeted scum also sent in the kill is 50% which gives us a total of 10% chance the jailkeeper targets the killsending scum. However, he can also target the other scum, which means the JK can still target scum without blocking the kill. That scum is in the remaining 10% of the scum not sending in the kill. So if a kill goes through the one being jailed can be 8/9 town (88%) and 1/9 (11%) be scum.

This applies when everything is totally random, what off course isn't in this game. These are the chances you were talking about so no discussion about this anymore, please.

ConSpiracy · Post Post #786 (isolation #9) » Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:10 am

Egg wrote:FTR, I don't think Farsidescum gets any more advantage knowing who I am than Farsidetown. The only reason to really know is to make sure people aren't joining games under multiple accounts, but I think the honor system basically covers that in non-newb games.

That´s not what I meant about it.
- He used you being a noob as a reason to ask your night target.
- He knows you are an alt, not a noob.
- He made up his argument about you being a noob. <- scumslip

farside22 wrote:All VT's have is a vote. That's the point. It' has nothing to do with the PM, it's what most VT's know once they get their role PM.
I have a vote. If I was scum I would be soft claiming doc and outing the doctor.
Seriously LH catch up, we miss you.

This is not true. I can prove you aren't a doc and you know it. You made it unable for yourself to fake-claim doc.

farside wrote:Oh hell no way is Consp backing off that easy. I know you slipped and I'm not about to give you room to wiggle. You said AntB was town based on me scum, but said nothing about Archer who had the same thing going on with him. Then you come up with a lame ass attempt to say I'm bussing Archer after pointing out my lack of vote on Batt's day 1.
No way Jose.

Yeah, well no. You are pretending that you were attacking AntB as much as Archer which is definitely not true. I only thought you mentioned Archer in just a vote and just a few posts, just as you did with Battousai and with SP and bv310 and DGB in the scumlink you gave us. My bad that you had a go on him for like 10 posts in a row.
On top of that, you know that you can't make anything out of this.
Let's say you are town:
- I mention Archer as a must be town when farside is scum <- invalid
Let's say you are scum:
- I mention Archer as a must be town when farside is scum <- true. But I can't be his scumbuddy anymore since there is one scum left.

I like your trying to get me lynched, but you are only digging a deeper hole for yourself, scum.

ConSpiracy · Post Post #790 (isolation #10) » Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:46 am

AntB wrote:Are these reads 2 way at all? IE if I flip town, person X is obviscum?

*pretending as if farside isn't already obvious scum*
If AntB flips town, farside will not become obvious scum.

ConSpiracy · Post Post #793 (isolation #11) » Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:20 pm

farside22 wrote:As I said and proof above I was correct. Once I flip town you were going to attack AntB.

Nice twisting of words. If AntBtown doesn't imply farsidescum, then farsidetown doesn't automaticly imply AntBscum. And again a lame attempt to let me come across as scummy.

farside22 wrote:
This is not true. I can prove you aren't a doc and you know it. You made it unable for yourself to fake-claim doc.
Seriously can I please be a double voter in this game mod!!
So as scum you see that I would stop a someone I think is scum from fake claiming. Your seriously saying as scum I wouldn't wait to have AntB claim his VT role instead when I pointed out something before hand?

Since you can't see it yourself, I will show you:

Why farside can't be the doc

She said this to AntB

farside22 wrote:I want to remind people in case AntBscum tries to fake claim what he said earlier in the game.

AntB wrote: I will happily die (and even self hammer) if my flip will provide sufficient information, and even as scum if I feel it will throw the trail off my scumbuddies. However, my death now will provide nothing but a lot of "meh!"

This was so the doc didn't have to counterclaim because she has proof AntB is a VT. If farside was the doc herself, she didn't have to post this. She could have come up with this piece of evidence before the doc (she) counterclaimed herself.

If you actually read the game instead of just the iso, you would have noted that I voted for my scum buddies when they were under pressure in that game, but when the town decided to switch votes to someone else I was more then happy to help them lynch that person. IE: I'm not going to keep a vote on my scum buddy as scum if the town wants to lynch someone else. But as you only looked at the iso you missed that part.
Also I have attacked both AntB and Archer today.

You think I am that stupid to only read your ISO? I won't read all of the 30 pages you were around, because that takes too much time, but I at least make sure I read the important posts in context + at least the votecounts when you voted.
bv310 was not having any vote or pressure on him
SocioPath was not having any vote on him (some even called him town)
What you said only applied to DGB -> Great. I am accused of something wrong again.

I already figure I will be lynched. But I'm making damn sure tomorrow when your around and my flip happens as town your are put in a corner you can't get out of.

That is fine with me, you will flip scum anyway.

ConSpiracy · Post Post #805 (isolation #12) » Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:58 am

farside22 wrote:
Consp scum wrote:Since you can't see it yourself, I will show you:

Why farside can't be the doc
She said this to AntB

far wrote:So as scum you see that I would stop a someone I think is scum from fake claiming. Your seriously saying as scum I wouldn't wait to have AntB claim his VT role instead when I pointed out something before hand?
IE: I already pointed out what you were going to quote but nice dodge of my question though.

1. Both of you are town/you are town, AntB is scum
- You want to warn others of AntB's claim. He couldn't fake-claim doc. <- useless, because if he fake-claimed doc, he would have been busted with a counterclaim
2. You are scum, AntB is town
- You knew he wouldn't fake-claim so this post wouldn't do any harm. In the small chance that he is the doc, you can lynch a confirmed townie.
3. Both of you are scum (unlikely)
- You wanted to warn him if he prepared a fake-claim.

It was a win-win situation when you posted it, too bad we noticed the scummy content.

Magua wrote:I don't like this whole back-and-forth between Conspiracy and farside. It goes off into the weeds so easily on things that are so...bizarre...like Farside saying, "If I were scum, I'd be softclaiming doc", and Conspiracy replying with evidence from D2 that Farside wasn't softclaiming doc. Which just makes me go WTF? It reads to me like Conspiracy is simply going through Farside's post, and grabbing everything that could be taken as even remotely scummy, and throwing it into the mix. "Farside is scummy for calling Nacho obvscum D1, but then pressuring other players." Seriously? The aforementioned "There's no way Farside could be softclaming doc." The picture it puts into my mind is someone who has a predetermined goal in mind -- "Farside is scum" -- and is then simply looking for things that confirm this.

Interpret it in the way you want, but that is not true. I usually respond to her suspicions on me to show that she is wrong or just grasping straws. Some things I take out because they are just bad, such as the example of farside saying "scum would fake-claim doc" being null, because of the reason I pointed out.

ConSpiracy · Post Post #810 (isolation #13) » Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:32 am

lord_hur wrote:Reasons :
- vote/unvote of Battousai makes no sense for farside22-scum ;
- Battousai talked about bussing after she did this, and I don't believe in scum talking about their partner's strategy openly ;
- what little I know of farside22 makes me highly doubt that she would ever use her mod powers without a legitimate reason (please forgive me for considering it, farside22) ;
- Magua is obv-town to me, and I agree with him now that ConSpiracy is going over the top, repeating himself and throwing everything he can regardless of the scumhunting value ;
- there are too many arguments I don't believe in piling on her right now ;
- her last post is as town as can be, imho : I've done the exact same thing before, the only time I've ever self-destructed (in my defense, it was a game based on cults, and me being alive, because of my "powers" and recruitability, made me a threat to town).

About the farside things I can´t say much about, you have to think of that yourself.
I have had 5 games before on this site and I have had this sort of `clash` once before. At that time I was also tunneling too much to get the other one lynched and that only worked against me. Oh well, next time I am going to have this game and the other one in mind to stop doing being over the top.

farside22 wrote:Scum slip 3.0......Consp didn't take the what you should never, ever do as scum class.
For those not reading the game.

Though I like your next attempt to make me scummy, you know that you are WIFOMing yourself out of points like this one yourself.
Why would I do this obvious buddying/following if I were scum?
Do I have to make entirely original reads on every body when I think the same about most of the other players? I think if you let every body make the lists themself you will find very much of the same reads.

farside22 wrote:Lets number the things that is wrong with this post
1) Doesn't have an opinion on his own about others
2) Follows another player post, using another players tell to as his own.
3)

1) Lol, this is stupid and moot and you know it.
2) First thing is right, second isn't. Again using your own opinion of me. Explain how a tell can only give a town vibe to one player.
3) So I may not use that to my read of him being obvious town? I can't even recall you saying this anyway.

farside22 scum (I can do that too) wrote:See you never said this in your post about AntB. You declared him town. And again your missing a question I asked.
1)
Why if I was scum would I not let it pass that AntB already did a claim or point it out to others, giving myself no wiggle room later to fake claim for myself?
Also I asked another question you ignored.
2)
Who do you think is my scum partner and why?

1)

That was not the question in the first place, so nice attempt to give me fake scumpoints again.
Why would you keep yourself from fake-claiming doc?
you are pretending as if scum is obvious to fake-claim doc. Scum isn't, because they can get out of lynches. VT AntB (though not scum) got out of his lynch, too, when he claimed VT. If you would fake claim doc in the near future, the scum-team would have incredibly low odds to win. Hell, only in LyLo I can see the use of fake-claiming doc. So saying this isn't bad to earn some townpoints when disadvantages aren't huge either. Meh, I can see it as null now, not as scum. NVM, learning in the process.

2)

I think I read over that because it started unseriously and was the last post on that page. On top of that I was kinda in a hurry this morning so I was reading fast. Anyways, I had said that already here.

@Lord_Hur.

You can't disagree with me that farside is going over the top to me, as well.

ConSpiracy · Post Post #813 (isolation #14) » Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:07 am

farside22 wrote:
consp wrote:Why would I do this obvious buddying/following if I were scum?
RED ALERT
RED ALERT

COMMAND AND CONQUER
COMMAND AND CONQUER

farside22 wrote:Using someone else excuse. Awesome scum stuff here.
Did you see it as obvious? Why would you do something that was following as town? What's wrong with writing you own POE? I don't see everyone have the same exact read you did because so far, 2 people think Archer is scum, 1 person thinks Andrew is scum, 3 people think your scum. I know bella is now on my scum list.
how many people have looker on their scum list right now?
It's not the same that's BS logic right there.

What do you think of the possibility I truely think that way? Have you even considered that? There is nothing wrong with writing my own list (What does POE stand for?), but as I said I couldn't bring up taking more than two hours of work to make two more lists. And I think you misinterpreted the rethorical question I posted:

Do I have to make entirely original reads on every body when I think the same about most of the other players?

I meant: Do I have to make entirely original reads on every body if I have the same reads on most players as someone else? (in this case Magua)

farside22 wrote:By the way that link is your initial post has 2 scum suspects but in no way explain a connection to me.

So, I had:
Lord_Hur town, Magua town, AntB town, Bella neutral town, Archer neutral town, Andrew neutral town, Egg obv. town.
That leaves both broken and Looker. I got on those with proces of elimination, not with connections. Hell, I bet both have hardly any connection with anyone, because they did very, very little.

lord_hur wrote:
ConSpiracy wrote:I have had 5 games before on this site and I have had this sort of `clash` once before. At that time I was also tunneling too much to get the other one lynched and that only worked against me. Oh well, next time I am going to have this game and the other one in mind to stop doing being over the top.
Did you get him/her lynched?

Nope. Eventually we found someone else who was nearly confirmed scum due to scumpairings. But my scumread on her did end the game, because I killed her instead of the real scum. (Yes, yes, she wasn't even scum...) It is a bit complicated, so I suggest skim it yourself, I replaced chkflip in day four: Open 270: Medical mafia

ConSpiracy · Post Post #819 (isolation #15) » Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:27 am

lord_hur wrote:
ConSpiracy wrote:Nope. Eventually we found someone else who was nearly confirmed scum due to scumpairings. But my scumread on her did end the game, because I killed her instead of the real scum. (Yes, yes, she wasn't even scum...) It is a bit complicated, so I suggest skim it yourself, I replaced chkflip in day four: Open 270: Medical mafia
You know you weren't NKed because he saw a tunnelling newb he could manipulate, right? Geez, that would have cured me of tunnelling forever.

Anyway, no scumtell here.

Well, that is not how it went. I wanted to avoid telling everything, but I might as well do it anyway.

Medical mafia day 4

- We were in LyLo with these 5 people: empking (scum), bub bubberskins (scum), ConSpiracy (quack doc), Kikuchiyo (weak doc) and Packbat (Naive doc).
- I just replaced in and attacked Kikuchiyo firmly, because she didn't do anything townish throughout the thread.
- The discussion between us heated up a lot (basicly the same as with me/farside here) and we both thought each other to be scum.
- However, we eventually lynched Empking due to connection problems between all of the other four (a bub-CS connection was unlikely, bub-kik, CS-kik, etc)
- Due to some statistics failure we lost the game. (I won't go to far into this) We

didn't

lose it, because of me tunneling. He actually NKed me in the game, because he thought he could manipulate Packbat more. That is possibly the reason I didn't really learn from it. Oh well, I will never tunnel this hard again. Maybe it would be a great idea to hydra with a more experienced player to see how they handle scumreads.

Looker wrote:
UNVOTE: VOTE: Egg

Why did you vote Egg?

ConSpiracy · Post Post #824 (isolation #16) » Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:32 am

farside22 wrote:How do I know this is your read on players if you used someone's else's write up?

I didn't entirely copy it. Things that were different I didn't quote to express my own reasons better.
Anyways, this is mafia. Either think I am scum and do not believe or think I am town and believe it. This question is near the exact question mafia is all about: "Who is scum and who isn't?"
Believe me because I am town

farside22 wrote:So since Archer doesn't want to play ball question to Consp. Is there a reason you called Archer she? I'm just wondering because I notice that MS is mostly male oriented environment and Archer didn't correct you either.

Well, that is an annoying tell I have, I don't know why. Names or avatars that seem a little feminine are rare and immediately give me the thought they are a woman. (No offence towards Lord_Hur, Archer and brokenscraps)

lord_hur wrote:
farside22 wrote:So since Archer doesn't want to play ball question to Consp. Is there a reason you called Archer she? I'm just wondering because I notice that MS is mostly male oriented environment and Archer didn't correct you either.
He called me and brokenscraps (maybe others) "she" too. My guess is his mastery of english isn't perfect.

Nope it isn't sorry. I have some trouble with misinterpretations sometimes so I review them as much as I can to avoid those. This game went very well because I hardly made any mistakes. I am improving

Anyways, really either farside or me is going to be lynched. If neither of us is getting lynched scum gets a free night and tomorrow we will get the same argue again minus player (unlikely, but maybe egg roleblocked/protected). If neither of us is lynched when I am online tomorrow I will vote for myself. If that will be the case I hope you guys are smart enough to lynch farside tomorrow otherwise I will rise up from the undead and haunt you all.

Farside will target Archer all day tomorrow for the crappiest reasons as she was crappy all over him today. If she goes back to AntB, then she gives us basicly a scumclaim.

ConSpiracy · Post Post #827 (isolation #17) » Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:50 am

Just because andrew didn't give us any clue about which lynch he supported.

He just got a major link with farside (and me, but I will flip town)
He hasn't mentioned even one of us being scummy and actually doesn't do anything.

And I liked playing this game. I learned a lot and it is the first game I really thought I was playing mafia on a high level. I loved the arguments with Farside and the convo's with Lord Hur. Good game town!

ConSpiracy · Post Post #834 (isolation #18) » Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:43 am

farside22 wrote:I think my biggest problem is your scum reads. You had 3 only. That's rare for me. I usually feel everyone is scum till I get a good town read on them. (yes I get paranoid and yes it's guilty till innocent and yes even I get tunnel).
How do you see yourself normally as town vs scum?
Why did you not push on Looker or ......sorry I forget who your other scum suspect was and I have to go shortly, but why not point to them and put your case out just as hard?
Also why just hey this is fun post? Do you ever look for connection between players in games?

I replaced in and had 25 pages to get reads. No wonder I can establish many townreads at the moment I started. Of course I sometimes have some scummy vibes from everybody now and then, but I´d rather not listen to them when they´re minor, because it would drive me paranoid.
First question I don´t get what you meant with it.
Because I got them as scum through a proces of elimination. I didn´t have anything else about them then a small connection between them and Batt and the lurkiness. You on the other hand, are obvious scum for the reasons I stated.
Because I mean it. I liked this game really much and knowing I am going to be lynched (using statistics) I just wanted to say that.
And I can find some connections. However, I'd rather just make connections between a confirmed scum and a living player than between two living players. Otherwise it is just very much guessing: IF he is scum, THEN he is likely to be scum.

lord_hur wrote:
ConSpiracy wrote:I loved the arguments with Farside and the convo's with Lord Hur. Good game town!
Which conversations with me did you enjoy? I mean, I've not exactly been pleasant (I rarely am at this game). I'm very sorry if you're honest, but from my point of view, this looks like an artificial last attempt to look town.
Anyway, if you're lynched and town, keep it up, your logical analysis will pay if you manage to not tunnel as much, and not use others' arguments as much (which is scummy, and risky because everyone can be scum). And actually, the advice is the same if you're scum.

The high level I meant, not the nice way of it. And you should think that and not switch your vote. That would be stupid right now.
Thanks for the advise, I still think I am in my learning stage, so everything is welcome. Although, I still don't get why using someone else's arguments is bad, because rephrasing the arguments will accuse the writer of "following, but not pretending not to be".

And Bella, that would be stupid. Tomorrow we will get another argument between me and farside which will continue until one of us is lynched. We'd etter just lynch one of us to end it.

ConSpiracy · Post Post #836 (isolation #19) » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:17 am

farside22 wrote:Consp: Batt's is dead. Are you saying I am the only person you found a connection with on him?
The question you didn't understand was to see if you could evaluate your own play as town in games and how you act as scum.

Same post:

me wrote:Because I got them as scum through a proces of elimination. I didn´t have anything else about them then a small connection between them and Batt and the lurkiness. You on the other hand, are obvious scum for the reasons I stated.

I would like to play scum once, but I didn't get a scum pm, yet. (Of course ongoing games do not count). I don't particularly care about my own play as town or not, I know I am town and I don't have to change my posts in ways to show others I am town. Only scum would do that. I only change my playstyle if I realise it is indeed scummy.

ConSpiracy · Post Post #1177 (isolation #20) » Fri May 06, 2011 9:06 am

Just four words:

I am sorry, farside.

ConSpiracy · Sat May 07, 2011 10:04 am

farside22 wrote:Oh and before I forget LH that was awesome how you sort of soft claimed a PR. I don't know if you did it on purpose, but when you asked AntB about my soft claim I had a feeling you would be dead next as the potential doctor.

This.

I had a major doctor read on LH.

farside wrote:Consp: I'm sorry I got it wrapped in my head that the Mod replaced a PR first as I had a good read on Magua when he first entered and I believed the mod showed his hand by replaced DP before SoS. I was right and wrong. Right about mod replacing a more role related player, wrong that that the role replaced was town.
I really thought it was Bella/Looker once i was lynched.

I'm sorry that I tunneled once again.
You know what? I have read a few games you played in and every game I thought you were scum. Even when you were town (Zoraster's in the court of the gods for example) I don't know why but you ping my scumdar every time.