Open 300 - Mafia on Midol (Town Wins!)

[AGar]

I'm here, not dead.

Reading up now. Whoops.

[AGar]

4. DemonHybrid - I don't understand his "trap," and his responses from the current wagon are almost stone cold. Scum lean.

Simple. I post an almost noobish statement without an RVS post for my first post. Someone targets it opportunistically and votes me for it. That person is scum for taking advantage of a situation that SHOULDN'T exist in a game with this playerlist.

Everyone else is bandwagoning (which gives nulls, pretty much), but Papa Zito came out of nowhere and voted me for that specific post. Do not like.

Your trap is indeed a scum-trap, in that it was scum-laid. Nice try on a mislynch though.

---

@Audience: Does DH posts towaard me read as if he has a geniune scumread of me?

Nope.

Were there something worth commenting on, I'd have commented on it.

I agree with this.


LF doesn't seem as town as people are spouting.

Wagon on DH is good.

I like my vote.

The RVS is not a time frame, but a state of mind.

Wait, what?

Talk about hypocricy.

Um.... people can like one wagon and be more enticed by another? Like you were.

Seriously, you're all over the place here trying to fling suspicion.

---

UNVOTE: DemonHybrid

Anybody else think he's acting too freakin'

weird

to be scum? Since when do scum set up "traps" on themselves and then call whomever votes for them scum? I mean, come on. The whole "Haha I caught you SCUM!" made me laugh but I can't imagine any scum in their right mind trying something like that.

And yes, my original vote on DH was a shameless bandwagon vote because I agreed with PZ's minor scum-tell that he pointed out. But since DH apparently dropped a minor scum-tell

intentionally

that makes it

not

scummy.

Your distancing... it is not subtle enough.

---

This one is for free:

If he's talking about you with his "I like my vote" statement, he's a hypocrite because he says he likes the growing wagon but keeps his vote on another person.

Just stating my opinion. Too busy voting for Papa Zito right now.

1. That second post was pages ago.
2. Troll didn't have a growing wagon on him; it was an offhand remark that I made at his first post.
3. That was the dumbest point anyone has ever made in the history of mafia.

1. How does that matter?
2. That does not make yours not hypocrisy
3. No, it was actually pretty good.

---

Conversely, Thor is scum if he doesn't die N1. :p

VOTE: DemonHybrid

L-2, but you need it scumbag.

[AGar]

Um.... people can like one wagon and be more enticed by another? Like you were.

Seriously, you're all over the place here trying to fling suspicion.

What other wagon did I like?

Was Fate ever voted?

Was Troll ever voted?

Troll was never a wagon, and if you need to pick apart technicalities to get your suspicion spread around, feel free. But the point is, you were voting one person and suspect of another, and then you're calling SP scum for

doing the same thing

.

[AGar]

Liking a wagon generally equates to expressing suspicion. Stop being obstinate, for fucks sake.

[AGar]

@AGar - please describe for me the type of player you believe DH is. To be specific would you call him more gut or detail oriented and do you think he plays more emotionally or logically?

I don't do meta. You're aware of this. Why are you fishing for a meta-read from me, might I ask?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Crazy

I don't buy into the "OMG DH freaked and replaced = obvtown" stance, so I'm not going to drop my suspicion there. But Crazy has been really trying to push himself against that DH wagon in a bizarre way. I don't like trying to debunk the wagon because the player is "too weird" to be scum. Bullshit. Find a real reason. And "intentionally" dropping a scumtell isn't good enough. You pushed weak reasoning against the wagon, but also decided then to not utilize your vote at all. Even now you're weakly nibbling around trying to find a wagon to get behind without doing anything yourself.

DH laid a shit trap that looked like scum trying to bait a god damned mislynch. He was wagonned because of it. He cracked under pressure and replaced out. What's telling about that at all? What's to say he's not scum freaking out about getting busted? Seriously, why is everyone just flipping "Yep, he's totes town," for that... Last I checked extreme emotion outbursts weren't a town-tell, and if they are I'll just freak out like that next time I get run up.

[AGar]

EBWOP:

Apparently I'm wrong. I didn't check the VC and didn't see Crazy's vote on Sudo. Still, you simply sheeped to another wagon, saying you wanted to look around first.

[AGar]

@AGar - please describe for me the type of player you believe DH is. To be specific would you call him more gut or detail oriented and do you think he plays more emotionally or logically?

I don't do meta. You're aware of this. Why are you fishing for a meta-read from me, might I ask?

Well, there's meta and than there's playstyle, which is part of meta but also a distinct flavor. Basically you were pushing a "poor logic, dawg" case on a player that I would not be surprised to see poor logic come from if he was town, which really invalidates the whole case you're making. I wanted you to justify the case push, really.

He used shit-tastic logic knowingly. I fail to see a town-motivation for that.

I don't buy into the "OMG DH freaked and replaced = obvtown" stance, so I'm not going to drop my suspicion there.

Any reaction to my DH townread as stated that had nothing to do with his replace out?

I'm aware of it, I disagree with it, but you at least have something to back it up with other than an emotional outburst.

DH laid a Smurf trap that looked like scum trying to bait a god damned mislynch. He was wagonned because of it. He cracked under pressure and replaced out. What's telling about that at all? What's to say he's not scum freaking out about getting busted? Seriously, why is everyone just flipping "Yep, he's totes town," for that... Last I checked extreme emotion outbursts weren't a town-tell, and if they are I'll just freak out like that next time I get run up.

Really, I would say the clarity of the town energy from his trap was the earnestness of it. It's really quite simple;

1. He was scum who was laying a very obvious and very weak trap and thought town would fall for it and allow him to wagon.
2. He was town who laid a very obvious trap and honestly thought it could catch scum.

Your "tell" of him being scum is equally applicable to both scenarios, and thus begs the question of why you draw conclusion 1 over conclusion 2. I, personally, look at his reaction to being "caught" and feel like he really believes in his tell and is offended no one else sees the logic. He focused on trying to explain the logic of the tell loudly and proudly, and made himself a vast center of attention by declaring other people wrong and having play that was...unoptimal for a scum. His replace out adds to the read, but the town energy seems pretty clear to me prior to that. Then pretty much he gets real world offended at Fate and somewhere in there other people start piling on the wagon as though it has teeth. What am I missing?

I jumped to 1 because I fail to see how anyone who isn't a VI could honestly believe they caught scum on that trap, and then his continued press on PZ as "obvscum" from there-on-out reeked of him desperately trying to push a funny lynch through. Just because one plays a bad scum game, does not make them not scum. His whole play just read as really really off to me.

[AGar]

He used Smurf-tastic logic knowingly. I fail to see a town-motivation for that.

And yet there are many players like [insert name of your VI of choice] that are town statistically as often as "good" players. But I get the feeling we're either hitting (or soon will be) a brick wall in this vein.

You're essentially giving him a pass for play that benefits a scum wincon because VIs do it here. That's weaksauce, bro.

What's your read on Sudo and Socio?

Sudo: I'm not thrilled at all by his play so far, and I really hate his parking of a useless vote at this point. But repeatedly insisting that "Hey, there's nothing worth commenting on here" doesn't seem like it would benefit scum at all, to me. It's basically passing up any bait at a mislynch. If we see a scum-flip from one of the people more involved in those earlier scenarios, then yeah - there's potentially something up there - but since I have a townread on Zito, everyone else does on DH/Nacho, and the Crazy and Troll "incidents" were really not worth commenting on (Troll makes that same post every game... I don't know why people get up in arms about it), I don't see an issue with that, which seems to be the main issue with people.

Socio: I'm in line with his thinking re: DH. That's all he's commented on really, so far, so that might set off a few bells, but I'm not going to call someone scum for having the same viewpoints as me, if that's what you want.

@AGar, if you still think DH is scum, then why did you change your vote?

Wagon faded and everyone screamed obvtown. There's no town motivation to sit there and park my vote going "Oh, well shucks guys." I can't push a case on him that anyone will be convinced by at this point, because it mostly focuses on behavior people have already made there mind up on him for now. Instead, I've decided to push actively in a new direction to a player I think is also likely to be scum - you.

Why does defending DH make me scum? Even if you disagree with me, why does it make me

scum?

The way you did it - the 'on the wagon, off the wagon' deal was exceedingly awkward, and using the "too scummy to be scum" argument doesn't bite with me. Nothing you've said has gelled with me at all about DH being potentially town, it seems like weakly constructed excuses to keep him alive.

And to be honest, your vote on the DH wagon was the most suspicious IMO. It was just a big quote wall with random retorts thrown in. So really, at first glance it might

look

like something resembling a case, but it really wasn't. Plus that weird comment where you said I was "distancing" DH - too much certainty regarding associative tells this early in the game doesn't sit right with me. And I totally don't understand why you left the DH wagon if you still believe he is scum.

I'm not going to write an essay on why someone is scum - don't get excited for that to ever happen here. I like to keep my points short, like I am on time. DH made a weak attack on PZ. I hate meta. I abhor it. It's so able to be changed on a whim if someone is aware of it. But there's a certain understanding of another player's style you gain when you hydra with them, and I hydra with Papa Zito as The Stove. His behavior here in the early game was pretty much the same things he chased after in both of our games as The Stove. I'm sorry, I know I hate meta, but I can't shake that feeling that I got from Zito's early posts. So DH's attack was a very weakly constructed attack on a player I feel to be extremely likely to be town right now. His subsequent behavior did nothing to shake those feelings, and he was spewing about things that didn't add up. That's why I took the shots at the "random" quotes - because it showed the behavior I was seeing.

You've since just awkwardly bounced about trying to find a wagon with the most traction, attacking someone then retracting it quickly thereafter. Tell me what you're gaining from this, because I don't see anything. At all.

Ugh this turned into a wall.

[AGar]

EBWOP:

Chk could die and I'd be ok with that.

[AGar]

I'll try and cut down on the quote walls in the future. Sorry for this one.

Also,

@Mod: I'll be V/LA from Friday 4/15 - Sunday 4/17.

---

You're essentially giving him a pass for play that benefits a scum wincon because VIs do it here. That's weaksauce, bro.

I don't see his play as intrinsically scummy advantage though, and don't believe you've proved otherwise. We both agree the trap play was suboptimal. We simply disagree on whether it was scum or town motivated. I'll give you a slight nod for the 'hypocrisy' tell but I'm not sure I buy it as legitimate hypocrisy from a scum motivation as opposed to simply a slight gray area for responding to reads. I know I've been town and have entered into that gray area before and though I believe it's pro town to avoid it I don't see it as slam dunk scum evidence.

Was DH's trap going to fully and 100% propel a mislynch? Probably not. But by design, it was more likely to catch a town player poking and prodding than an opportunistic scum player, especially among this crowd of players. The fact that he "believed" otherwise, to me, doesn't translate a town mindset.

Sudo: I'm not thrilled at all by his play so far, and I really hate his parking of a useless vote at this point. But repeatedly insisting that "Hey, there's nothing worth commenting on here" doesn't seem like it would benefit scum at all, to me. It's basically passing up any bait at a mislynch. If we see a scum-flip from one of the people more involved in those earlier scenarios, then yeah - there's potentially something up there - but since I have a townread on Zito, everyone else does on DH/Nacho, and the Crazy and Troll "incidents" were really not worth commenting on (Troll makes that same post every game... I don't know why people get up in arms about it), I don't see an issue with that, which seems to be the main issue with people.

This is all good posting here.
I'll agree I can see a lack of desire to comment on stuff as not a solid scum tell (though I do think it's better than what else we've seen thus far). I will add that the lack of any active attempts to generate discussion reads that she finds worthwhile is more worrisome. Sometimes I am not enthused by the current conversation - the only times I've lurked through them though instead of starting up something new was predominantly when I was scum.

I get that people are pretty much looking for something to go on here, and on the surface, just sliding by makes for a great icebreaker. But once you scratch away at the outer shell, Sudo isn't really actively pushing

anything

. I don't think that's an optimal town play, but by the same token, other than being unreadable, it's not an optimal play as scum, to me. If he keeps this up, then yes, I'll be all for piking his head, but as of right now, I see no need to jump on someone who only saw minimal interest in the DH wagon.

---

The way you did it - the 'on the wagon, off the wagon' deal was exceedingly awkward, and using the "too scummy to be scum" argument doesn't bite with me. Nothing you've said has gelled with me at all about DH being potentially town, it seems like weakly constructed excuses to keep him alive.

So is your case on me being scum dependent on DH also being scum? I mean, I hear you say "Crazy is scum because he defended DH" and when I asked why you just implied that it's because we're scum-partners.

Since when did scum only defend their partners? Scum can also defend town players, and oft do to gain town cred (like Oman mentioned). Your defense of DH was awkward and looked like you didn't really believe it (ergo DHscum) or didn't have a true way to defend him, but knew he was town.

You've since just awkwardly bounced about trying to find a wagon with the most traction, attacking someone then retracting it quickly thereafter. Tell me what you're gaining from this, because I don't see anything. At all.

It's how I'm trying to scum-hunt; my suspicions aren't solid yet and I'm applying pressure to different people to try to figure out their alignment. And I left the DH and Sudo wagons WHEN they started to gain momentum, so I'm not sure what you're saying.

Actually the DH wagon had pretty much sputtered out for a time when you unvoted. SP, Chk and I came in and added our votes afterwords, but those three votes weren't "a-comin" when you unvoted.
Sudo's wagon has literally picked up 1 vote since you unvoted. Again, not picking up momentum there, chief.

You're "applying pressure" is throwing a vote behind a wagon on a whim, hoping it sticks, and then if not, bouncing to another. There's no pressure behind your votes because they hold no meaning whatsoever. What did you gain from your vote on Sudo? Your vote on me? Do you expect to gain anything about NS's alignment for lurker-voting?

---

agar... hm. bad gut vibes, i don't like his dismissal of the case against sudo. sorry but i literally simply just cannot accept that thing about there being nothing decent to comment on; nor do i buy his incredibly WIFOM argument that essentially boils down to saying "he's TOO obviously scummy to be scum why would scum ever be so scummy it just doesn't add up". bad bad bad dumb dumb dumb... scum? too early to say for sure but i'll say he's definitely on that side of the line right now

I'm not saying he's too scummy to be scum, especially considering I even said I don't like his play so far. I'm saying his play that everyone is attacking doesn't benefit a scum wincon in any way. Mislynches are the fuel of a scum win. Yeah, scum can win if the town no-lynches every day and scum runs free every night, but that will likely never happen. So mislynches are better than scumlynches, but bussing a partner still builds some kind of credibility. The only benefit to pushing nothing in itself is being unreadable, which is definitely possible, but other than that, not pushing any lynches is detrimental to the scumgame. Especially when scum need 5 mislynches out of the gate to win.

Also, Crazy vote is for awkward defense of the DH-slot, and now simply wagon hopping without real purpose. Claims to be generating "pressure" but votes seem to be exceedingly casual and hold no meaning, like he's waiting for something to take off.

---

@Sudo

Where do you stand, honestly? Suspicions, thoughts, something? I'd love a vote, but doubt we'll see that, so just give us something to work with?

This game needs a massive round of prods or something similar, lots of players to hear from. PZ, Plum, Troll... Plenty of input to be had.

[AGar]

@AGar, my vote on you did serve a purpose as in letting people know where I stand as well as adding more weight to my questions towards you. What did you expect me to do, go all "OMG LYNCH LYNCH LYNCH??" I never had a case for lynching you; I just was suspicious of you so I voted you and questioned you. Is that wrong? Or would you prefer me to hold onto my vote until I'm ready for a lynch like Sudo is doing?

And you're really flip-flopping with your reasons of suspecting me. I mean, make up your mind, did I unvote DH because I was trying to save him from a lynch or did I unvote him because the wagon didn't have enough "traction?"

I'll ask you the same question I asked Oman, though - if I

was

town and thought DH was town, what

should

I have done in that scenario?

First paragraph - Your votes hold no weight, because you put nothing behind them. I ask again - have you gained anything from them? Because it doesn't look like it. I want you to actually put something behind your vote.

Second - I fail to see how I was flip-flopping. I suspect you for a) a weak defense on trying to save DH and b) votehopping around aimlessly since then

Third - Provide a real defense, not "He's acting too damn weird."

As for your question in 323 - He needs to post more, but his post was enough to hold me over until he's off V/LA. I know where he stands, his opinions and his intentions.

---

@People Looking for Crazy-case

Also, Crazy vote is for awkward defense of the DH-slot, and now simply wagon hopping without real purpose. Claims to be generating "pressure" but votes seem to be exceedingly casual and hold no meaning, like he's waiting for something to take off.

[AGar]

@Crazy

I've said your defense was weak. Your vote on Sudo is what sticks out most - you didn't want to waste your vote, so you just threw it around at who looked scummy at a glance... what? If you didn't want to waste your vote, why didn't you take the time to give things more than a glance? The reasoning also contradicts your whole "I'm voting semi-aimlessly to get reads!" when you admit to just throwing a vote onto a wagon.

What has your vote on Sudo told you about Sudo at all? Because that's major problem I have here - you're saying you're voting to apply pressure/gain reads/figure alignments out, but the only two votes you seem to have produced anything from are the ones on DH and myself, and even the vote on myself is a stretch because you're leaning null.

@CES/Thor/Cyberbob

Why Sudo still?

Pedit: Hey look, it's Zito. Welcome back. :goodposting:

[AGar]

@AGar - What makes the defense of DH from Crazy differ from the defense from all the other people who were off the wagon? Do you still read both players as scum?

Crazy's reasoning initially was awful (too scummy to be scum, essentially), and he didn't follow up with much beyond that. I still do at this time. Nacho has been in a limbo between lurking and fluffing at this point. He provided at most two reads in his 3 consecutive posts that I assume were catchups. Crazy hasn't assuaged any of my feelings so far, and the dissonance between "I'm vote hopping to generate pressure and reads!" and only two of his votes actually generating reads (out of 5) isn't helping anything.

Was DH's trap going to fully and 100% propel a mislynch? Probably not. But by design, it was more likely to catch a town player poking and prodding than an opportunistic scum player, especially among this crowd of players. The fact that he "believed" otherwise, to me, doesn't translate a town mindset.

You thought scumDH would actually try to push a mislynch with that trap?
What?

You don't read, do you? Like the first two lines, specifically. The trap in itself wouldn't be the sole force behind a mislynch, I'm well aware of that. But the "trap" was, as I said, more likely to catch a town player by design. From there it's all in erosion. Anything that comes up from there on out that is even the slightest bit imperfect is going to be persecuted with the fullest intent to lynch, using the "trap" as a cornerstone. A half-intelligent player should be able to look at this and see the obvious flaw from the get-go.

---

NS is nitpicking at minute details to stall out on doing anything right now. The case on Chk is bunk. But what really really bothers me is he goes after both Chk and Crazy for 'out of game analysis' and votes Chk, with 2 votes on him instead of Crazy, with 4. If the scumtell applies to both, which it seems to me it does, then why vote for the smaller wagon?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Nobody Special

[AGar]

I get SP's logic, strangely. But it's bad in this case.

Assuming he means that Sudo is going to lead us to others. Disagree.

I'm amused that chk found that little nugget.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Sudo_Nym

NS and Crazy still need to die sooner than later.

[AGar]

V/LA through Sunday. Be back on Monday.

Just a reminder-thing-type-deal.

[AGar]

Hey Agar glad to see you are back... This means I have been on for too long ;-;

I'm being stalked... lovely.

I have a lot of reading to do, and very little motivation to do so. This game is on the top of the pile.

Posting in a bit.

[AGar]

Incoming wallpost, my sincerest apologies.

AGar, I'm fairly certain SocioPath is talking about keeping me around because he thinks, for lack of a better way to put it, I'll "buss my buddies."

I'm fairly certain I understood the logic, regardless of the fact that I thought he was talking about Sudo, and still disagree with it.

@AGar - please describe for me the type of player you believe DH is. To be specific would you call him more gut or detail oriented and do you think he plays more emotionally or logically?

I don't do meta. You're aware of this. Why are you fishing for a meta-read from me, might I ask?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Crazy

I don't buy into the "OMG DH freaked and replaced = obvtown" stance, so I'm not going to drop my suspicion there. But Crazy has been really trying to push himself against that DH wagon in a bizarre way. I don't like trying to debunk the wagon because the player is "too weird" to be scum. Bullshit. Find a real reason. And "intentionally" dropping a scumtell isn't good enough. You pushed weak reasoning against the wagon, but also decided then to not utilize your vote at all. Even now you're weakly nibbling around trying to find a wagon to get behind without doing anything yourself.

DH laid a shit trap that looked like scum trying to bait a god damned mislynch. He was wagonned because of it. He cracked under pressure and replaced out. What's telling about that at all? What's to say he's not scum freaking out about getting busted? Seriously, why is everyone just flipping "Yep, he's totes town," for that... Last I checked extreme emotion outbursts weren't a town-tell, and if they are I'll just freak out like that next time I get run up.

If you thought that at that point, and your reads hadn't changed since your only real post (that is, scum DH and Crazy, nothing stated on anyone else), why switch your vote onto Crazy for things Crazy had done before and you'd noted before? What changed?

DH wagon lost all viability. Power players in this game declared DH/Nacho to be town, and that was that. I decided to try and make a push on Crazy in it's stead since I found him to be the scummiest next to DH/Nacho.

You don't read, do you? Like the first two lines, specifically. The trap in itself wouldn't be the sole force behind a mislynch, I'm well aware of that. But the "trap" was, as I said, more likely to catch a town player by design. From there it's all in erosion. Anything that comes up from there on out that is even the slightest bit imperfect is going to be persecuted with the fullest intent to lynch, using the "trap" as a cornerstone. A half-intelligent player should be able to look at this and see the obvious flaw from the get-go.

I'm still not seeing any of your reasoning. Shitty traps =/= scummy, just like shitty cases =/= scummy. DH didn't pursue PZ with the fullest intent to lynch. And if the flaw of his trap was so obvious, then why would he still set it? So he could catch a townie and have a place to put his random vote...?

Using a shitty trap, and believing it to be an honestly and completely viable tool to actually catch scum (have you actually read DH's posts - he was 100% serious that he had caught scum in PZ), is either scum-motivated or really fucking stupid town. I'm going with the former, not the latter here.

Speaking of meta, I've been meaning for a while to ask Agar, if you don't do meta, what's up with defending PZ based on meta? and yes, I read your disclaimer that it's not "meta" just a familiarity with his play style.... (aka meta!)

I'm actually surprised it took this long to get a question on this.

I hate meta, as I said. But I'm conceding a meta read on Papa Zito, because I can't shake this feeling I get due to our games hydra-ing together. It didn't "disclaimer that it's not 'meta'" at all; I actually figured most people would attack me because it

is

a meta read.

[LONG VERSION - Skip if you don't give a fuck]

Most people do meta reads on this site wrong - they play a game with one person as an alignment, and the next time they play, they have a "meta" read on this player. This is so wrong I usually call the person fucking stupid. Even when someone does a meta read "properly" and gets both sides of the alignment, there are too many situational influences on their games to actually develop a profound read. The apparent skill of the other players involved, the setup, their role/night powers - shit like that. So you really don't get a good feel or understanding for their play. And even then, most half-decent players are aware of their own meta and can manipulate that to their benefit. So meta is very easy to fuck up. But when you hydra with a player, I feel like you gain a bit more of an insight into the players playstyle - you know why they're doing things more than just what the post in the game thread is, because the two+ players have to come to their own consensus on things. It's a bit better of a way of gathering a deeper understanding of a player's motivations as a certain alignment.

[END LONG VERSION]

In other news, Sudo vote stays. Nacho has improved his standing in my eyes, and not sold enough on Chk right now.

God damn, that re-read sucked.

[AGar]

DH wagon lost all viability. Power players in this game declared DH/Nacho to be town, and that was that. I decided to try and make a push on Crazy in it's stead since I found him to be the scummiest next to DH/Nacho.

Hm. Maybe I'm biased by retrospect (I don't see a viable Crazy wagon) and such. But. Absent DH/Nacho scum, is Crazy likely scum and why?

Crazy isn't a viable wagon atm, but I tried to push it as one. The push failed, and I have moved onto other options.

Yes. Answered already a bit earlier, but awkward defending of DH after hopping on & off the wagon, and uselessly wagon hopping "for information" whilst gathering no information from said votehopping.

Using a shitty trap, and believing it to be an honestly and completely viable tool to actually catch scum (have you actually read DH's posts - he was 100% serious that he had caught scum in PZ), is either scum-motivated or really fucking stupid town. I'm going with the former, not the latter here.

I want you to elaborate on why scum would be more likely to do that than RFST.

I'm not saying scum are more likely to do it than RFST in all situations. I find this playerlist to be a high-caliber list. Therefore, I don't find RFST to be very likely here.

---

Sudo needs death. The lurk-city is just prolonging us from progress. If anything, he's probably stalling to figure out where he can safely fakeclaim at this point.

[AGar]

@AGar - Can you explain the relationship between DH and Crazy? Which is more likely to be scum independently?

How many times can you dress up the same question and ask it differently.

The relationship was a very awkward shift off of DH by Crazy, with a very lame-duck defense of "He's acting too weird to be scum!" and then followed up with unimpressive points along the lines of "It was a weak reason to vote him!" "He

intentionally

left a scumtell" and shit like that.

Crazy is more likely to be scum independently.

VOTE: Nobody Special

You continue to skirt actually doing anything here. Strategic lurking makes me

@PZ

General thoughts on yesterday? Since you were all doped up and shit towards the end? I can't seem to find much.

[AGar]

AGar, what do you think of Llama's Post #212?

If calling DH town is a grave sin, then is Llama even more guilty than me?

Are you reading my posts at ALL or are you just seeing "LOL AGar mentioned me, lemme ask a dumb question trololololololol." ?

[AGar]

@Papa Zito

@PZ

General thoughts on yesterday? Since you were all doped up and shit towards the end? I can't seem to find much.

@LF/Crazy

Go scramble to bring something to the table.

[AGar]

The really confusing logic that I cant ever figure out between DH-Crazy that to me just makes me feel all types of bad since it was between two (one confirmed now) town reads. I consider stuff I cant follow well scummy since if its a town thought it should be easily explainable.

How is it hard to follow "Crazy made a really awkward defense of a player that seemed scummy and I felt the motivations were insincere."

Still think Crazy is scum?

Yes. He's simply been trying to deflect my attacks on him with "Nuh-uh, you're scummy!" all game. I haven't seen something productive from him since early D1.

VOTE: Crazy

[AGar]

@Papa Zito

@PZ

General thoughts on yesterday? Since you were all doped up and shit towards the end? I can't seem to find much.

General thoughts were basically expressed: I didn't see why Sudo over NS. Maybe if I hadn't been broken I could've helped push NS along more but who knows.

Why not Sudo over NS? I don't remember catching this.

[AGar]

The really confusing logic that I cant ever figure out between DH-Crazy that to me just makes me feel all types of bad since it was between two (one confirmed now) town reads. I consider stuff I cant follow well scummy since if its a town thought it should be easily explainable.

How is it hard to follow "Crazy made a really awkward defense of a player that seemed scummy and I felt the motivations were insincere."

Then why didnt you just say that flat out instead of turning it into quote walls?

I know you're intelligent...

1
2
3

3 separate times where I addressed my suspicions of Crazy in a non-quotewall form. One of which was addressed to you. Did I use more words? Yeah. If you're not going to read 1 paragraph, kindly screw off.

[AGar]

I wasn't the only person that thought DH was town after his freak-out, so obviously there was

some

decent reason to think that DH was town. But what gets me is you get on my case for the "awkward defense" yet you can't really come up with a clear, definitive reason for

why

I'm scummy instead of say:

A. A townie that can't express himself very well.
B. A townie that uses bad logic.

Instead, you go for the way-too-easy route of "OMG bad logic scum!!!"

If DH flipped scum, then yeah, I see the case on me. But DH flipped town and you're still holding to that?

Yes, because your only defense to anything relies on the principle that scum never defend town players.

[AGar]

Work sucked dick. I'll get to this one tonight.

[AGar]

Town: bob, PZ, SP, Plum, Llama, Crazy.

UNVOTE: chkflip
VOTE: LlamaFluff

Uhhh what?

No really.. what the shit is that?

Soo the case on me is..

- A smilie tell. Come back when you have something of actual substance, please.

- I didn't vote Crazy D2. I came in in the middle of D2, and there was a 5-vote wagon on NS, while no one even cared to mention anyone else. I felt the day prior NS was still a fairly good wagon, and thus, the vote. I fail to see where you can't follow the logic here.

- Switching back to Sudo from NS on D1, when neither posted between my posts. My posts were 24 hours apart, and in said 24 hours, 3 votes jumped onto Sudo, from various spots. Either wagon was acceptable to me, and I had no material to make a NS wagon viable moreso than a Sudo wagon, as all NS boiled to was deflecting doing anything while Sudo had prior points against him. Large game, move your vote where it will do most damage. If you can't make your current wagon more viable, move on.

That's about all I see? Anything I miss?

Now let's try lynching actual scum, shall we?

Like Crazy, who has been sitting here doing nothing for himself, just coattailing the entire game. Hell, on D2 (I didn't catch this until just today), he attempts to accredit himself for a lynch he wasn't even on. He's constantly springboarded off of other players in order to justify his voting. First PZ for his vote on DH. Then he sheeps the logic behind the Sudo wagon. He uses DH's "I made a scumtell

on purpose

" to muster up his own defense of DH/Nacho. His votes on me have been completely retaliatory, and very defensive in nature. Jumps on me today after Llama does, giving no actual motivation, just "I'mma tunnel hurr." Still made an awkward, poorly articulated defense of DH/Nacho slot I don't buy into, and all I see is a scumbag looking for townie brownies. His only defense against said accusation has boiled down to "Scum never defend town players!" Uhno.

[AGar]

(Ninja'd by TS. Will read in a sec.)

Uhhh what?

No really.. what the shit is that?

I kno, rite? You're another one of those players who should be familiar with my methods.

No, actually I'm not. We've been in two games, one where you were SK, and one ongoing. Being that I don't put much stock at all in meta in the first place, I don't get the point of voting for a noted townread on Day

3

.

[AGar]

Agar, give me your reads on: Zito, Thor, Llama, and SocioPath please.

Zito - Town. Elaborated on this.
Thor - Mixed. I get fairly good logic from his posting, but Zito's 725 highlights some pitfalls in Thortown.
Llama - Town. Mislead, but town.
SocioPath - Leaning scummish because he seems to be playing in a way that makes him intentionally difficult to read.

Read on Crazy, now?

[AGar]

What about "I will vote AGar until the end of timeeeeee." ?

[AGar]

SocioPath - Leaning scummish because he seems to be playing in a way that makes him intentionally difficult to read.

Scummish...because you cant easily read me as scum or town?
Makes sense.
Maybe I forgot what null means.

Town players should be playing in a way where they're easily read. You are not doing this. Thus, scummish.

I actually think it may be almost time for an AGar claim just because this wagon aint going anywhere elsewise.

Lololololol no.

[AGar]

NS is nitpicking at minute details to stall out on doing anything right now. The case on Chk is bunk. But what really really bothers me is he goes after both Chk and Crazy for 'out of game analysis' and votes Chk, with 2 votes on him instead of Crazy, with 4. If the scumtell applies to both, which it seems to me it does, then why vote for the smaller wagon?

AGar, why did this bother you so much? Was this just more of the "NS is scum because Crazy is scum because DH is scum" or was there more to it than that?

Where did I say "NS is scum because Crazy is scum because DH is scum," anywhere in this game?

You're stretching really far each time you post.

You are scum INDEPENDENT of DH's alignment, for the last time. Your buddying made no sense, was weak and didn't look sincere at all. NS voted for the player with less votes for something he accused both of you of.

Yes, that's a connection. Congratulations.

[AGar]

NS voted for the player with less votes for something he accused both of you of

Why was that scummy?

He did nothing to "make chkflip viable" and instead just parked his vote on the smaller wagon. In a game with 18 players, that says a number of things, one possibility being he really didn't want you dead.

You continue to assume that every connection ever made must be scum-scum, and that there are no connections ever with scum-town, and said connections can't be inferred without a flip.

NS was playing in a tactically lurking manner, only posting quips and jibs in here. His one vote of note (to me) was to park his vote on a player who had less votes than another he accused of the same tell, and the player who had more votes happened to be someone I had a scumread on. He was hyperfocusing on small things, trying to make mountains out of molehills.

That's called individual scumminess right there. The fact that he flipped scum only makes you look worse in my eyes.

You defended DemonHybrid in a way that read as extremely insincere. Newsflash: scum defend town players to look good after the townflip. It happens. So quit bitching about DH flipping town. Regardless of DH's alignment, your defense of him looked really really poorly thought out and extremely faked. You are now falling onto a crutch of "Well he flipped town!" to try and avert my suspicion here, and anytime I say otherwise you simply pull a 3-year old, put your hands over your ears and go "LA LA LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU LA LA LA."

IF the wagon on you doesn't gain support? My next choice would be SocioPath. He isn't actively reading like he's trying, and all he can respond with are thinly veiled insinuations and short quips attempting to be witty.

When my wagon crumbles, where are you gonna go? OR are you going to continue your 3-year old play and go "LOLNOPE VOTING AGAR FOREVAAAAA"?

(Lolirony at you accusing me of suboptimal scum play for hounding the shit out of my top scumread while you passively tunnel yourself. Difference? I believe in my read.)

[AGar]

Yeahh....

Fuck the po-lice.

(Idc if scum QT goes live)