Open 300 - Mafia on Midol (Town Wins!)

[Thor665]

Super quote wall of things Thor noticed - huzzah!

vote: Xine

She knows what she did

Hi, I'm ducking the Crazy wagon or offering opinions. I make joke! LOL!...LOL!

It's where Dread Cthuhlu lies sleeping.

Dodge, duck, dip, dive, and dodge.

Llama, so you're confirming that it's okay for Cogito to do it... but not Sudo? Got it.

Only have one vote here. That moved CES up a bit though, but I see his early vote as being a minor contribution to the game in getting a wagon kickstarted.

starting to think chk is town afterall here given this last page.

I will give town points to the Llama for going where I would have gone. I don't find CES in the same category of what Sudo is doing at all. I actually found chk functionally town at this stage too, though that opinion took a nose dive later - I'll probably have a quote for that.

Yeah...go back to the newbie queue. You make a great D1 lynch

Fate - you're obvious scum list from earlier also included basically all the players I would describe as "freshman" still. So...why you picking on the little guys? You probably need more capslock, you make more sense with capslock because than I can picture you as a small hairy thing with a mouth, and it makes me smile and listen to you more.

fate/dh chill out imo

I'm Cyberbob, I defuse arguments, I'm town, yo!

@Audience: Does DH posts towaard me read as if he has a geniune scumread of me?

Both of your postings strike me as similar to most interactions with you and Benmage. Null annoyance over something non-game focused. You should refocus since you seem to believe he's the newbie.

I'm calling DH town - his statements are too aggressive, too simplistic, and too ringleader oriented to come across as scum to me, especially considering the playerlist. I find that whole wagon to be made of fail and shame, and those who are on it are now coated in fail and shame. Shamefail!

chkflips sudden spin onto DH is pretty sad too, that's the scummy read I have. Felt like "oh, people are suspecting DH now, huh? I can get in on that" sort of play. I want more of a read there, but he's almost on the scum list. I somewhat agree with those clearing Troll, but...seriously, as though Troll wouldn't go with that angle for town points as a shift? He's not as cleared as people are saying. I actually find Papa Z to be town, his reactions to DH felt the most town-like of anyone, which is just sad again.

I'm calling Socio and Sudo as scum. More to be added as reads become clearer.

Vote: Sudo

Let's team up with the guy who thinks the same way I do for ultimate win via forcing everyone to deal with Thor twice over - a true recipe for awesome.

[Thor665]

If I die night one AGar is scum

[Thor665]

The crazy wagon was an RVS wagon. It bears no commenting, as I told cyberbob; and as you'll notice, it's already dissipated, more or less. I especially don't get why you'd try to pin anything on me based on my first post in RVS with what's obviously a joke vote, anyway.

Oh, I'm sorry - I wasn't aware that by dint of it being a joke you feel no tells whatsoever can be accredited to it.
You also missed that this is exactly why I call it scummy, natch.

It's where Dread Cthuhlu lies sleeping.

Dodge, duck, dip, dive, and dodge.

Um, what? That was a direct response, still in RVS, to someone asking about Troll's signature.

Total posts by Sudo at that stage = 2
Proof that Sudo is following ongoing conversations = 100%
Total number of posts Sudo is willing to admit have anything at all to do with the game at that stage = 0%
She's also called out Oman for "not posting" and doesn't seem to understand what active lurk is.
Yeah.

Troll slightly, because of his first post, but has recently been okay.

Justify this - don't make me be wrong in my wild claims of who is scum/town.

EBWOP - Don't go! You're half the grit in the grindmill.

@AGar - please describe for me the type of player you believe DH is. To be specific would you call him more gut or detail oriented and do you think he plays more emotionally or logically?

[Thor665]

So.

DH is probably town.

Lets move on now.

This is why more people need to listen to me. Also, I really want to develop a rock star ego as part of my meta and it's darn hard without the needed worship.

Claiming before I go: Vanilla Townie. Socio is my obvious top lynch. Think what you want.

Hey you're the one that got the wagon on his Smurf in no time flat.

I was really looking forward to your mislynch too..

Unvote:
Vote: Sudo_Nym

Ah well.

Good posting.

[Thor665]

@Sudo - how about you *gasp* go out on a limb and comment on...anything. You brought up suspecting DH but not wanting to vote him because too many people were voting him and that might mean the person you suspect would be lynched (a truly frightening thing) you, however, fail to clarify if you;

1. Still suspect him.
2. Still consider him voteworthy.
3. Have any opinion whatsoever on his implosion, claim, and replace request.

You could also claim scum, I could work with that.

[Thor665]

Suspecting a person, and lynching a person are two different things. I was 100% behind the wagon for sure, and you can put that on the record. But there was still discussion going on, and I wasn't prepared to put him at L-1 so early, while talks are still occuring.

Suspecting and lynching are indeed two different things.
So is L-1 and lynch, while we're pointing out things.
What were you expecting? A player to come swooping in, yell "Blargh, I am TOTALLY town...QUICKHAMMAH!!! Bwa-hahahaha!" Because...ah...last I checked scum don't go in for that too much. And if you believe they do than you'd have a perfect way to 100% verify a townie Day 1, which is well worth the "risk" of 100% exposing a scum.

The replace request has muddied the waters, I admit, but it doesn't change my opinion that the slot is scummy, and whoever replaces DH will be tainted by his actions. Like I said, though, there are town tells, and the replacement certainly isn't condemned.

Now that people are fleeing from the fail wagon like rats from a sinking ship how do you still feel about him. Why are you not voting him now - clearly something beyond putting him at L-1 is holding you back, so what's the other roadblock?

And for going on a limb and commenting at random- your sarcasm aside, wouldn't commenting on a thing I have no opinion on just make things less clear, by providing useless data? As town, it's my imperative to make sure that communication is clear and effective, is it not?

How are reads developed? By having opinions/actions expressed in game that you can assess as town or scum opinions/actions. Agreed?
What sort of player might want to avoid having other players draw tells from their opinions/actions? (hint - not town)
So, either you are town who is looking scummy while not helping us scumhunt, or you are scum who is trying to lay low and not give town clues about your scumminess. I see you as a value++ lynch either way. Am I missing something?

[Thor665]

I'm calling Socio and Sudo as scum. More to be added as reads become clearer.

Vote: Sudo

Let's team up with the guy who thinks the same way I do for ultimate win via forcing everyone to deal with Thor twice over - a true recipe for awesome.

I also enjoy curling up during rainy days with a good book and watercolors.

[Thor665]

The replace request has muddied the waters, I admit,

but it doesn't change my opinion that the slot is scummy

, and whoever replaces DH will be tainted by his actions. Like I said, though, there are town tells, and the replacement certainly isn't condemned.

Now that people are fleeing from the fail wagon like rats from a sinking ship how do you still feel about him. Why are you not voting him now - clearly something beyond putting him at L-1 is holding you back, so what's the other roadblock?

Did I not already address that the replacement issue makes it difficult? Or were you not paying attention to that? It's right there, in that thing you quoted.

So your answer is he's scummy, and you would vote him, but now you're not going to vote him because a scummy replacement shouldn't have any pressure on him when replacing in?
What do you think about all the players announcing the slot is no longer scummy (or, indeed, obv.obv.obv. town)? WHy do you still think the slot is scummy despite the replacement, and why are you not pressuring those clearing the slot who are obviously missing the point that the slot is still scummy and are letting all the pressure bleed off?

Reads are developed by making meaningful analysis. Meaningful analysis requires meaningful posts. Analyzing worthless posts generates worthless reads. Worthless reads do nothing to help the town. Why would you want me to generate worthless content? Why would you want anyone to generate worthless content? Because it seems like an utter waste of time.

So...you'll let me know once meaningful posts start happening and will just lurk till then? And if everyone played that way the game would be a lot of silence. What are you planning to do to begin the generation of meaningful posts? If you don't have an answer to that I'm forced to return to the previously stated accusation that you are not scumhunting and are active lurking.

[Thor665]

Because the replacement deserves a chance to talk. And I'm willing to believe that others think that DH is genuinely town, given his request for replacement. Here's a question: why are you trying to dictate my play? I do as I think logical, which may or may not always be the case. I tend to play very slowly, and deliberately, and I don't believe that it's a bad style, even if it lacks the aggression that people seem to demand.

Watch as I answer your question and have to re-ask my questions to you yet again;
I am not dictating your play, I am asking you to justify your play - please provide relevant quotes to support your interpretation.

Also, if you still find the slot scummy why are you not voting it? The wagon is crumbling so it's not like he's going to be lynched or not have a chance to talk if you do so...? Also, as noted, you clearly don't agree that his replace out request is half as towny as many other players do - why did you not address this when it came up? (the last question is the one I'm *really* wondering about)

I'm not scumhunting, because I'm not randomly applying pressure to people? Because I'm not playing aggressively? Besides, I hardly think it's fair to accuse me of being silent, here. And I really don't think it's fair for getting on my case for not making garbage posts.

If it's not fair please go into your now 14 posts this game and supply for me 2-3 examples of your scumhunting method. Clearly I am missing it, but you can probably point it out and explain it to me. Then I'll become both a) wiser and b) be able to understand that you are town and are trying to help our situation. Both of those are helpful things to accomplish. Because all I see looking at your iso is defense, dodging, and...well, avoiding giving opinions but I wanted another 'd' word for the alliterative appeal.

[Thor665]

ps crazy: dh isn't obvtown for claiming VT before replacement, he's obvtown because fate doesn't like him

This is going to be sigged by me. Bet on it.

[Thor665]

@AGar - please describe for me the type of player you believe DH is. To be specific would you call him more gut or detail oriented and do you think he plays more emotionally or logically?

I don't do meta. You're aware of this. Why are you fishing for a meta-read from me, might I ask?

Well, there's meta and than there's playstyle, which is part of meta but also a distinct flavor. Basically you were pushing a "poor logic, dawg" case on a player that I would not be surprised to see poor logic come from if he was town, which really invalidates the whole case you're making. I wanted you to justify the case push, really.

I don't buy into the "OMG DH freaked and replaced = obvtown" stance, so I'm not going to drop my suspicion there.

Any reaction to my DH townread as stated that had nothing to do with his replace out?

DH laid a Smurf trap that looked like scum trying to bait a god damned mislynch. He was wagonned because of it. He cracked under pressure and replaced out. What's telling about that at all? What's to say he's not scum freaking out about getting busted? Seriously, why is everyone just flipping "Yep, he's totes town," for that... Last I checked extreme emotion outbursts weren't a town-tell, and if they are I'll just freak out like that next time I get run up.

Really, I would say the clarity of the town energy from his trap was the earnestness of it. It's really quite simple;

1. He was scum who was laying a very obvious and very weak trap and thought town would fall for it and allow him to wagon.
2. He was town who laid a very obvious trap and honestly thought it could catch scum.

Your "tell" of him being scum is equally applicable to both scenarios, and thus begs the question of why you draw conclusion 1 over conclusion 2. I, personally, look at his reaction to being "caught" and feel like he really believes in his tell and is offended no one else sees the logic. He focused on trying to explain the logic of the tell loudly and proudly, and made himself a vast center of attention by declaring other people wrong and having play that was...unoptimal for a scum. His replace out adds to the read, but the town energy seems pretty clear to me prior to that. Then pretty much he gets real world offended at Fate and somewhere in there other people start piling on the wagon as though it has teeth. What am I missing?

[Thor665]

As much as I agree with Sudo being in the hotseat, failing to place the L-1 vote is hardly valid as a scumtell, and aggressively pursuing that stance could lean to looser claims.

That's not the scumtell I'm advancing, though it's perhaps a symptom of the scumtell I'm advancing.
The case is aggressive active lurk and avoidance of opinions tendered - of which lack of being willing to put out a vote is one of the multiple instances I've noted. If you think that's my case and don't like it, but agree with Sudo being in the hotseat - why do you support Sudo being in the hotseat?

[Thor665]

He used Smurf-tastic logic knowingly. I fail to see a town-motivation for that.

And yet there are many players like [insert name of your VI of choice] that are town statistically as often as "good" players. But I get the feeling we're either hitting (or soon will be) a brick wall in this vein.

What's your read on Sudo and Socio?

[Thor665]

Thor, was my addition to the DH case the "more of a read" you were looking for there?

I wanted more of a read 'on' you, not 'from' you.

[Thor665]

Deleted. Carry On.

[Thor665]

I apologize for the above - I went to respond to a post and somehow the machine sucked me out of the text box so when I hit enter it submitted. Apologies.

You're essentially giving him a pass for play that benefits a scum wincon because VIs do it here. That's weaksauce, bro.

I don't see his play as intrinsically scummy advantage though, and don't believe you've proved otherwise. We both agree the trap play was suboptimal. We simply disagree on whether it was scum or town motivated. I'll give you a slight nod for the 'hypocrisy' tell but I'm not sure I buy it as legitimate hypocrisy from a scum motivation as opposed to simply a slight gray area for responding to reads. I know I've been town and have entered into that gray area before and though I believe it's pro town to avoid it I don't see it as slam dunk scum evidence.

Sudo: I'm not thrilled at all by his play so far, and I really hate his parking of a useless vote at this point. But repeatedly insisting that "Hey, there's nothing worth commenting on here" doesn't seem like it would benefit scum at all, to me. It's basically passing up any bait at a mislynch. If we see a scum-flip from one of the people more involved in those earlier scenarios, then yeah - there's potentially something up there - but since I have a townread on Zito, everyone else does on DH/Nacho, and the Crazy and Troll "incidents" were really not worth commenting on (Troll makes that same post every game... I don't know why people get up in arms about it), I don't see an issue with that, which seems to be the main issue with people.

This is all good posting here.
I'll agree I can see a lack of desire to comment on stuff as not a solid scum tell (though I do think it's better than what else we've seen thus far). I will add that the lack of any active attempts to generate discussion reads that she finds worthwhile is more worrisome. Sometimes I am not enthused by the current conversation - the only times I've lurked through them though instead of starting up something new was predominantly when I was scum.

[Thor665]

@Oman - You've previously indicated them both Crazy and Sudo aare good lynches. Any reason you're not on the bigger of the two wagons?

[Thor665]

I tend to agree.

What *is* the Crazy case? I don't seem to even recall one being proffered and I'm pretty sure Fate asked only a few pages back.

[Thor665]

@CES/Thor/Cyberbob

Why Sudo still?

Um...because up until just a few hours ago when two people unvoted while I wasn't around he was still the biggest wagon and I still find him scummy and want him lynched and was even trying to get Oman onto it? Besides, you're on a wagon with absentee Nikanor and chkflp - it can't be

that

stellar. Also, looking at the other big wagons we have Crazy (who I have a slight town read on) and Nacho who I have a town read on thanks to DH that he is totally not taking advantage of by being awesome and town ). I'm not getting behind either of those terrible things. I'd rather lynch Socio or policy lynch Zorblag or Nikanor than hop on them.

@Llama - Is the AGar case something more than his exactitude (pedanticness?) towards Crazy's gamestyle? Because that's pretty normal AGar play in my experience. It's also not that far distant from why I'm rampaging on Sudo (though at least Crazy chooses to tell his attacker to sod off rather than Sudo's soft sell 'ignore and hope it goes away' method) Also, he's clearly not unique in disliking Crazy's play - what's your read on the rest of the wagon and does that have anything to do with your AGar issues?

[Thor665]

That's a lurking wagon though, yes? Bleh - you guys are just trying to deny me getting a reaction out of Sudo, aren't you?

We also have Oman's 5 votes = near L-1 when lynch is 10 votes insanity that still involves Sudo as a person of interest.

NS is now a lurker wagon that just sprang to L-2 in a matter of moments. People seem too happy there, consequently I am not happy with it. I'm going back to look at where that thing came from and will have thoughts later tonight.

[Thor665]

NS is just at 5 votes. Seems like Oman's not the only one with problems in that regard.

Good point. Me am fail.

@Socio - that's actually IIoA. You need to draw a conclusion before it's analysis.

[Thor665]

I'm not getting behind either of those terrible things. I'd rather lynch Socio or policy lynch Zorblag or Nikanor than hop on them.

NS is now a lurker wagon

And Zorb/Nik wouldn't be? Giving you a scumpoint for selective arguments. Now, please vote NS.

Fair enough - but I'll give you scum points for selective quoting and leaving off the commentary about how he was a lurker wagon I thought had grown unusually fast, and indeed that's what I had issue with, not the lurker wagon part. Derpy-doo to you too. Now kindly vote Sudo so he actually admits there's a wagon on him and addresses it instead of trying to lurk out and hope a VI wagon happens to remove the pressure.

[Thor665]

Oh wait...

[Thor665]

Nachomamma8 (3): SocioPath, chkflip, Sudo_Nym

Is it just me or is this wagon lulzy?

Nacho is starting post like Nacho.

His catch on Punkin is gold.

I agree with him about Crazy, though I think I already indicated that I felt Crazy was being run up for fluff.

Of the current wagon leaders I'd be most behind NS, but I still feel it's kind of 'meh' and would really like people to at least verify they got a town read off Sudo when they fled like rats. Because I didn't get that memo and I'm still saying scum over here, and I haven't seen anyone waving 'Sudo and Socio are awesometown' flags around lately and I'm really wondering what's up with that.

[Thor665]

@Fate - I knowz, i saidz th4t! Bl0wz mah mind dat no1 iz and yet wagon go *p00fs*!!

@Nacho - to-may-to to-mah-to. But, sure, if it pleases you;

Nacho's "ask an old question and hope the next answer you get makes sense" is gold.

[Thor665]

^
I will point out that applies equally for Sudo, amirite?

Psssh, if it stays this slow I'll vote NS tomorrow just for kicks.

[Thor665]

I guess you got your way after all, Thor.

<3

[Thor665]

Is that a town read on Sudo, or stronger scum read on NS, or just ragehate at his superbad VLA timing?

[Thor665]

Which 2/3rds? Because I don't find the superbad V/LA viable as it is being site wide and is null methinks.
And if you have a town read on Sudo...I dunno, I'll need to hear that clearly stated because I am waaaaay too dumb to see it.

[Thor665]

Don't like Thor asking Agar for meta, and then trying to say Crazy is town. SMURF THAT.

What does one have to do with the other? Also - let's keep in mind that you're aware I'm calling Crazy town, it will save me some time later.

Plus I love red starbursts.

Lemon and Orange, at the same time. Mmmmmm.

Thor:
176: Why can’t scum be aggressive, simplistic, or ring leader like? Explain how DH exhibited these traits too. I’d think scum would be aggressive and simplistic if they are shifting suspicion off themselves and pointing out every little thing to get himself dug out his own grave.
Chkflip just wagoned, big deal.
So far Sudo just reads as Anti-town to me, not scummy. Explain that further please.
I do not believe that wagon was made of fail, stop trying to belittle town’s scumhunting. You should be on DH’s case for trying to lay Smurftraps.
258: I don’t give a Smurf, whether if it’s my second or first time playing with crazy, that’s a stupid [ and crazy, pun intended] reason for him to get off. So meta doesn’t matter. I t’s obvious as plain day that Agar would be looking at Crazy’s actions within THIS game and not base it on others. Who cares what Crazy does as town or not, he can’t be off the hook because of doing it regardless of alignment. Don’t belittle Agar’s case because he didn’t use meta. You also call DH town, and llama too. All of you should die. Sudo is very anti-town and has trouble commenting and scumhunting, but you guys are really on his Smurf for that. You have a townread on DH, so obv you believe in the second scenario. I don’t believe town would really think that. If so, he has to get rid of the easy button.
267: So what. That doesn’t help reading Crazy.
349: What is YOUR read on Agar? What is your read on Llama? Crazy?

This should be amusing to do without the easy references of what I was talking about, but I'm not going back to double check, because my beard says I don't have to and I always listen to my beard.

176 - They can, I submit DH scum wouldn't be in the way he was here.

Re: Sudo anti-town. I could agree with this, but considering your scum read is DH/Nacho I'm not sure you should throw rocks. Let me put it this way, even if Sudo is town I see no help for her to town other than death and an alignment flip. If Nacho is town I foresee help for town. I also find the particular anti-town issues being raised here, personally, to be scummy insomuch as they benefit town by removing them from RVS and VCA analysis later in the game. That moves the case from an anti-town one to a scummy one, natch.

I do believe the wagon was made of fail. You're allowed to disagree with me and the beard, but you'll probably just look silly later Also, explain how the fail traps = scum. I don't see it.

258 - Meta does matter. I'm fine if you wish to totally not use it, but I highly doubt you can present a compelling argument for why that is a statistically superior scumhunting style. I'm fine if you don't wish to use it - be fine that I do unless you can present said argument.

267 - I have no idea what you're referring to. I'll actually claim it does help reading Crazy if I indicated in that post that it did.

349 - Remember earlier when I said to remember something you were aware of concerning my read on Crazy? Insert it here for lulz and win. My read on AGar is null, he hasn't been active enough for me to feel confident in a call on him. My read on Llama is leaning town. It's almost as though when I have a strong read I offer it and when I have weak ones I don't - go figure And don't act as though I'm not allowed to ask if I don't give mine first. People are allowed to ask me my reads whenever they wish.

@Fate - I'll hold off on buying into that totally, but the slot is definitely not in my top five lynch preferences right now, so you can have an 'atta boy and a cookie later. No milk though, you know it will just lead to a repeat of 'the incident'.

[Thor665]

"I have read up on you a bit and I like your playstyle but not your play here"

That was wrt to Thor. >_< Not to Nacho.

Awwww, fan club

Admittedly not a very loyal fan club, so you won't be getting the decoder ring this week.

[Thor665]

his question to me, at least, shows that he is not reading as deeply as he'd like it to seem.

This, though I made it more funny and more oblique because I wanted more reaction from the slot. Yah messinz wit mah magickz skillz!?!

I'll promise to re-read chkflip though, just for you. I am in three ruddy games with him concurrently right now and I'll concede I might be crossing my reads. This will happen Sunday if you want to hold off on yours till then to prevent Thor sheeping to avoid work (though my pbpa is generally accomplished in three sentences, so...)

[Thor665]

176 - Why is that? I don't know him. Can you give examples?

Nah, it's a gut read off of my experiences playing with him. Go research some of his games and draw your own conclusions.

Well I'm ok with Sudo going, I just believe DH was scummier. Why is that, because of meta, or just a hunch? Why do you believe Nacho will help? I'm confused, you mean to say Sudo is scummy for not being present for the RVS and not voting? Btw I saw Nacho in the boards but he didn't respond.

Nacho's posts are actually showing scumhunting, Sudo's are not, that's why Nacho is more useful even if he is scum because he's actually taking stances.
I mean to say Sudo is scummy for playing in a way which weakens the ability of other players to read Sudo.
...okay, so are you calling Nacho scummy for lurking or are you asking me if I find Nacho scummy for lurking?

258 - Well I don't rely on meta, but I'd like some examples of Crazy doing these things as both alignments. I don't believe Crazy should be left off the hook simply because of meta.

I wasn't aware I'd made any sort of Crzy meta claims, I'd made DH meta claims.

267 - You refer to vi's being statistically town alot. So what? How does that help in reading Crazy for you?

All I'm doing is dismissing a case of "Look at Crazy, he's playing poorly" and I'm pointing out that town plays poorly too, so it doesn't exactly make a brilliant case that all should follow, now does it?

349 - Well I asked for reads and I stuck Crazy in there, big deal. Glad it made you laugh though.

So you think this should be meaningless to me?

[Thor665]

Re-read chk. About the worst I can say for him is the point he's calling some players null reads and some null leaning scum and he votes for one he called null. About the best is his catch on Sudo. If I've called him town in this game I'll ease back to null leaning town. I'm not excited/sold by a wagon on him particularly.

@Socio - read on Cyberbob and chk?

[Thor665]

@Thor:
Well I don't trust your gut read. Can you demonstrate why your gut reads him in that way?

Ask me this again if you intend to start voting him - until then I don't really see the value in starting a chk discussion since the wagon on him is currently weak, and the wagon of whom I'd like to lynch (Sudo) still needs more consideration and attention.
As long as we're mentioning Sudo - active lurk anyone? Pretty much at this point a replace out is the only thing that would make me not want to lynch that slot today. Even that might not quite do it, but I'm willing to toss the idea out as I wouldn't mind having a contributing slot as opposed to a black hole wearing glasses.

No, not at all.

It's like you ate trying to make it hard to have the conversation. Here's what I am (pretty sure) is the question this is "answering";
"...okay, so are you calling Nacho scummy for lurking or are you asking me if I find Nacho scummy for lurking?"
Yeah...not really an answer there. Though you're starting to reverse on your Nacho angle which is making me twitch less about the soft-sell I was picking up. You've also functionally shot your own question in the foot - so we'll just wait and see if it ever hobbles back I suppose. Work on your communication skills though, i find it helps to be as clear as possible.

Why exactly do you have a town read on Crazy? Can you explain the bold please?

I have a town read because he looks very earnest and active in his scumhunting, and none of his manuevers thus far look like they intrinsically benefit scum.
The bold was a question to Llama. Llama was calling out AGar for being after Crazy for his playstyle - the thing is there was a wagon with multiple other players who were also citing "Crazy play bad, Crazy scumz!!!" and Llama didn't seem to be after them. I wanted to know why AGar was the worst of the bunch...now you have me wondering if he answered this. I'll have to check.
None of that was meta defending Crazy though - to get back to your initial commentary.

[Thor665]

Because that's how I roll.

That was a serious question. If you're just wagoning for the fun of it, then why the heck do you back that up with a "Why is DH not dead yet?"

^^I'd like other opinions on this, plz.

I see it as mostly further proof that the Crazy wagon suxx0rz the big one.

In a more focused sense I don't see anything CES said as out of line. I can go into this further if you want, though I think it weakens the purpose of you pressuring CES to get too many people commenting on it prior to him weighing in. Still, you have a 2 to 1 seeing it as scummy/questionable right now, so I'd advocate just stick to telling CES I'm the outlier on the bell curve and get the response out of him first. If you don't care, ask again and I'll explain my thoughts.

[Thor665]

Hito+sotty? Hellzya!

Well...and Mina...let's keep it in perspective

I support a Sudo claim and Sudo pressure.

@NS - you're waiting for input from Sudo? You...um...are aware of my case on Sudo, yes?

[Thor665]

Wanted a claim at L-2, quite frankly.

Mod - I know that Sudo has played in a way so as to avoid prods, but could we get one anyway?

[Thor665]

Let's team up with the guy who thinks the same way I do for ultimate win via forcing everyone to deal with Thor twice over - a true recipe for awesome.

I have no goddamn clue what you're saying here. help a brotha out

"This guy seems to have the same reads I do. Two of me in a game would be awesome and will hurt scum. Team-up for early pressure of win!"

[Thor665]

Fate just hammered - time to get in any last thoughts before night.

I hate rushed posting of thoughts and basically feel like pulling a Mina hem and haw here - instead I'll settle for a beard joke.

I sort of feel most of my reads are out there already.
If I didn't have a read on TS' slot than it is currently leaning pretty strong town if, nothing else, for having made more town contribution in the last two posts than half the rest of the players here have combined.
I'll add that, if Sudo flips town I'll be shocked if Fate is scum, and vice versa if it's a scum flip I'll be more suspicious of Fate. Yeah, I'm one of those guys. That said, obviouslly if Sudo flips scum the back end of this wagon needs some looking at in general.
I would flip AGar and OMan on Sotty's list above personally, though I agree I feel off about AGar but I am aware of his time issues that are valid and I'm having a hard time deciding if he's playing weakly due to time or weakly due to scum.

That's all I got right now, if brilliance strikes later and the thread is still open after I get food in my belly maybe I'll have more brilliance. Instead I'll insert an obligatory joke;

@Fate - don't make me reassess my beliefs about who between you and Benmage is superior to have in the game.

Guaranteed amusement with that one.

[Thor665]

I feel out of the loop for this game at the moment. I'm not sure i but the NS lynch based off being a counter wagon to Sudo - is there more to this case than that? Are we that sure the counter was on a scum? Meh.

At the same time I'm slightly against Socio=scum at the moment just because I'm not sure he'd be about killing Fate so soon, I guess he could have been overruled. Bleh, blargh.

Vote: Papa Zito

Gut and the way he acted at start of Day. On top of things enough to notice a vote count error about Zorblag, but "lol, obviouslly not scum" enough to not pay any attention to who was NKed? Naaaaah.

[Thor665]

No, that's temporary insanity making me forget Fate died.

And I'm saying it's kinda good he died cuz that was a dodgy hammer and now we don't have to waste time on it.

I'm looking through his iso atm to see

why

he died.

How's this going?

Vote: Papa Zito

Thor can be pedantic too.

[Thor665]

Actually I think I'm using it perfectly well.

How's that re-read on Fate going?

[Thor665]

Unvote: PapaZito
Vote: chkflip

Here's my case;
I'm feeling checked out of the game at the moment.
There is no support for a PapaZ lynch.
Punkin just produced possibly the best supported VCA I've ever seen and nobody is backing his play after it.

[Thor665]

You think AGarscum would go for a weak bus like that on Day 2?

[Thor665]

Check out the first three posts of page 15. Thor had made a post about the non-Sudo wagons that conveniently neglected NS. CES caught it and put Thor on the spot. He overreacted and cited an invalid reason for not being interested. This was immediately pointed out as invalid. Thor agreed in his next post, but he didn't move his vote.

I do not see;
1. An "overreaction"
2. "Convenient" neglect of NS.
3. A reason I should have moved my vote.

At least clarify 3 - considering who I was voting and what I was doing why should I have moved my vote at all?

Thor went on to lean towards a NS vote, and took a jab at him which is odd. Why would Thor do these things if he is town who doesn't suspect NS? Why not do more if he is town who does?

"Thor, why did you attack NS if you thought he was town?"
I didn't think he was town, I just didn't have a strong scum read on him and was jabbing him - as you noted.
"Then why didn't you jab him

more

, because it's scummy that you didn't."
Catch-22.

So either I'm scummy for attacking him or I'm scummy for not attacking him enough because each and every attack has to be full bore on or nothing at all?

Altogether, Thor's behavior towards NS looks like soft distancing during repeated attempts to protect him.

Soft distancing while defending him...
...
...
<-- please answer, this is a question.

With Agar though, I'm not so sure.
I've been scum with him in the past, and have a slight grasp of his playstyle.
For someone such as himself, I can't see him being sad about bussing a buddy, especially not one who was such lynch-bait.

This is good.

Altogether, Thor's behavior towards NS looks like soft distancing during repeated attempts to protect him.

I can see this.
He has also committed the hidden super secret SP-tell.

A scum tell not worth describing is a scum tell not worth anything.

[Thor665]

I was going to place my vote on Agar but I don't want another quick day as my other heads still aren't caught up.

You can have my seat if you like.

UNVOTE: AGar
VOTE: chkflip

So...you don't find him as scummy anymore, or what?

And to continue our debate;

[Thor665]

Unvote: PapaZito
Vote: chkflip

Here's my case;
I'm feeling checked out of the game at the moment.
There is no support for a PapaZ lynch.
Punkin just produced possibly the best supported VCA I've ever seen and nobody is backing his play after it.

May I ask what that whole post has to do with Chk?

Can you give me your reads? (At least your scum reads)

What are your thoughts on Punkin, Socio, and Llama?

1. May I ask what it doesn't? I thought I was pretty clear.

2. You may - Papa Zito, Socio, CES are probably the top three. Frankly everything behind Papa Z feels muddled though, as previously noted.

3. Punkin - town. Socio - scum. Llama - town. Besides Punkin I'm pretty sure I've said these all explicitly before, and Punkin, considering the post you quoted, appears pretty obvious, yeah?

[Thor665]

Do you understand what sheeping is? That's what I'm doing. (this is the answer to both 1+2).
At the moment I have no explicit angles or questions to pursue on any of the players here - as noted, I feel off in this game.

[Thor665]

Ok, so what parts of the Punkin VCA did you agree about wrt to ChkSCUM? Please give details as to why it convinced you to vote Chk over your top scum picks.

Here.

Take this somewhere or drop it, I'm lost in the game but I have better things to do than go in circles.

[Thor665]

3. I'm not going to push my lone major scumread at all.
4. I'm not going to ask anyone to bandwagon my lone major scumread with me.

Um, sorta did these.
Yeah.

And I look forward to an Oman flip considering how you're functionally just OMGUSing me while you were soft pushing him for days.

[Thor665]

Hmmm, and to clarify - by "sorta did these" I mean, I actually did the things he's saying I didn't - I'm not agreeing that I did the things he said...if that clarifies anything.

[Thor665]

What strikes me as odd is:

Thor not explaining why he agreed with the VCA

Something about this strikes me as odd too - but it has more to do with thick heads or something. I'm not really sure what that's about.
I'll give you slight props for pointing out Socio slavering at the jaws to lynch me, but I already think he's scum so whoop-dee-doo.

EBWOP - *sigh* Welcome to silly-ville, population you. Whatever, I could bear to watch a wagon on me form for info, maybe it will re-excite me or show me something I've missed.

[Thor665]

I usually get mopey if I'm really wrong in a read.
Also all my other games are currently being more fun, while this one is currently in a plodding wall stage.
And, yes, I'm aware it's up to me to "fix it" if I feel that way. Don't wanna right now, moping and sheeping till reads click again.

[Thor665]

...yes? Once again you're swinging, but you appear to be swinging in a different ball park than I am. I'm cognizant I'm not perfect (oh so cognizant), I still get mopey.

[Thor665]

@Rannymu - His attack on me feels sudden, frankly I still find him most scummy for his 'lol Fate's dead?' question Day 2 and than later his defense of "bussing scum 2 days in a row" business - which was a bit of a stretch and an overstatement of what he did. Obviously if he's scum he'd like to discredit me, but though I find his case on me sloppy it doesn't scream scum case particularly more than overanxious silly town to me. It's a bit OMGUS-y considering it felt like it came out of nowhere, but I frankly get that off the entire wagon, so clearly I went from looking pretty towny on Day 1 to suddenly feeling easy lynch/obv. scum on Day 3 and that can't all be scum motivated and is clearly on me for being listless.

More importantly - how do you read it?

@Llama - my issue with a lynch on AGar is simply that I would have expected AGar scum to do more of a slam dunk style bussing on Day 2. His and my scum styles are similar in how we like to treat less than optimal comrades in scum - hence why I'm not fond of the current case.

[Thor665]

I'll also add that AGar continuing to be up in the grill of someone multiple people have called obv. town is either indicative of him being town or being really gambitting scum. I see the former.

[Thor665]

That's assuming optimal play. Couldn't he just as easily be scum playing suboptimally?

That's a WIFOM debate - I personally believe AGar is a decent player and would tend to expect above average play or, at least, optimal play from him. Do you have any particular evidence or opinions to support the belief he's scum playing poorly?

[Thor665]

Before this you had AGar down as null. Can you pinpoint when and why you felt 'off' about him?

His initial posting was pretty weak for the AGar I know and love. If you really think it will matter considering my obvious mislynch status today I'll attack that when I'm sober and if I'm still alive - ask me again if you want it.

@Llama - my issue with a lynch on AGar is simply that I would have expected AGar scum to do more of a slam dunk style bussing on Day 2. His and my scum styles are similar in how we like to treat less than optimal comrades in scum - hence why I'm not fond of the current case.

I'm just putting this down for future evaluation.

Also - I hate AGar.

That's a WIFOM debate - I personally believe AGar is a decent player and would tend to expect above average play or, at least, optimal play from him. Do you have any particular evidence or opinions to support the belief he's scum playing poorly?

But didn't you just say his play overall was weaker than you'd expected???[/quote]
Define 'just'. I got $5 that says those two posts were many days apart and probably seperated by the pickup in AGar's play. Wasn't one of those Day 1 and the second Day 2 - so they were made weeks apart. Don't be silly.

Fair enough . . . if Thor posted thoughts after looking. I can't see that he

did

, though. The next day he does say

You'll note I was corrected on the L-2 thing. i dropped going back because I'm lazy as all get out.

The extent of my defense is I would never blatantly defend multiple scumbuddies back to back to back. Unfortunately that's all I've got, I really have just had really off reads this game and was defending the living hell out of two scummers. So I do have to go. Feel free to ask me for whatever reads you think may help. When I sober up and have some time I'll try to offer a last review of this wagon train on me, but it's chugging fast (and I'm lazy) so we'll see if I'm even around for it.

Apologies to town for my gak reads this game, and fie on AGar for playing me like I did to him when our roles were reversed (jerk!).

[Thor665]

Oh right setup.

Hay Thor still waiting for PZ case.

Hay PZ - I provided it already.

[Thor665]

Gut and the way he acted at start of Day. On top of things enough to notice a vote count error about Zorblag, but "lol, obviouslly not scum" enough to not pay any attention to who was NKed? Naaaaah.

I could expanded it to a wall with fancy quotes and PBPA and all that gak - but this is the case.

[Thor665]

But I'm sure this is such a strong case that Zito's sure scum, to the point that you'd vote him over seeing if he's plausibly connected to the two flipped scumbags or not, or see if anyone else has stronger connections to the two of them . . .

Yeah, I don't buy it.

Nor should you since I never had a chance to connect him to two flipped scumbags till today and I haven't voted for him today.
I didn't particularly try to connect him to the one flipped scumbag, sure. But I also spent most of that day sheeping (and defending the other soon to be flipped scumbag).
At least keep your accusations straight as you decide to wagon me up for not using good logic .

[Thor665]

Mod - V/LA - May 19-22

Noted. : )

[Thor665]

@Thor: So what's your plan then? You've got a wagon and a Ranmaru wagon and there you sit.

I think Ran is town...yeah, that will probably mean she's actually scum, but...
Besides, as noted all you're really waiting on is for me to find the time to present my general reads. When I actually force myself to do those I'll drop down a vote, at the moment all I'd do if I did vote would be to vote you - and I suspect I'm not really losing out on any sort of brilliant amazingness beneficial to town by not doing that.

[Thor665]

That's going to be a headbanger.

@Ranny - other than me calling you town, when did I become not a good vote and my claimed #1 a good one? Or am I projecting in thinking this is all about me?

[Thor665]

Considering the unconfirmeds;

Punkin is a solid town read, and I have Cyberbob as the same. Crazy as well, his actions Day 1 screamed town who was trying harder than most everybody else. If he's scum I'm eating my beard.
Plum is either town or is totally faking me out, but her early play of gunning down for both NS and AGar (and AGar off just vague gut - and she really got the conversation going that way) makes me call her a pretty safe town bet.
I'm still buying chk as scum off of Punkin's last VCA, and his new one still has him as a decent option.
I've got a town read on Ranmaru, her play is very reminiscent of my early town play.
I still get bad vibes off Papa Z.
CES I'll call scummy just for Day 1 and the hop skip twice onto Sudo and one of those off NS, but mostly his iso is gak and gives me nothing but bad vibes which is, unfortunately, his meta of choice.

Probably my call would be Papa Z and chk the scum, with CES as an outside angle.
I feel very confident with the town reads on Cyberbob, Plum, and Crazy. I don't think anyone cares about my read on Punkin.

Everything else is light fluff reads.

Possible support for this wagon exists.

Vote: chkflip

@Ranmaru - no.

[Thor665]

Oh, and I'm skeevy around Ran's PZ push. If she is scum I would say you should all pay *more* attention to my PZ opinion despite my town read opinion on her.

[Thor665]

I don't know why anyone would think he's town either. I'm just surprised I'm the first saying it. Doesn't make him look town.
Though I think either you're the king on non-sequiturs or just really misread my last post.

[Thor665]

You have convinced me, I now have a scum read on Papa Z...
I still stand by my logic in the post where I outlined that a scum flip from you increases Papa Z = scum in my book.

[Thor665]

Thor pretty much solidified my scumread of him with his response to the VCA.

Since this is the line preventing your vote being OMGUS - I'd like you to explain 'how' I did this.

[Thor665]

Why should I pursue CES scum over chk scum?
And that VCA doesn't leave me looking as scummy as I think you think it does.

[Thor665]

Sure, but I've been doing that since Day 2.
Why should I pursue CES scum over chk scum?

[Thor665]

It makes me question why you're bringing it up now as opposed to then.
You're the one who said I was scummy for not pursuing CES scum - look at the top of this page and explain that comment.

[Thor665]

I'll actually agree that PZ is well within his rights to ask for my case on him.
I agree with Ran pointing out PZ's general failure at looking town, but that's because I think he's scum so I'm biased.

CES I'll call scummy just for Day 1

with CES as an outside angle.

That's how I read this.

This is chkflip's response to why I'm scummy for not pushing CES scum over chkflip scum. Below is the entire original comment;

Probably my call would be Papa Z and chk the scum, with CES as an outside angle.

@chkflip - How do you get from that line that I think CES is more likely scum than you are? Even the first line you quoted I'm saying I find him scummy mostly for Day 1 and how horrible his iso is...and then I immediately note that this is unfortunately within his meta.

So, please, walk me through it a little slower - why am I scummy for not pushing on CES scum as opposed to you scum?

[Thor665]

I like Plum's angle here - for a guy focused on the scumz you've spent a lot of time focused on my attack on you and not a lot focused on doing whatever sort of scumhunting it is you do. Maybe it's invisible scumhunting and I just miss it - but I'm missing it.

[Thor665]

^^^ Ran's angle. Whatevs, I'm sleep deprived (or stupid - take your pick).

[Thor665]

Thor:

Do you and AGar play together often, or are you familiar with each other

I'm fascinated you care considering the way of your vote which seems pretty predicated on soft cuddly feelings between AGar and I.
But, yeah, AGar and I have been fairly aggressive about trying to be in games together and he easily makes the top five favorite guys for me to play games with on site. A check in either of our game lists will reveal multiple joint games which (self-meta alert) I submit show a common trend for our interactions that is reflected in this game and is separate from our alignments.

@Punkin - I hate to spit in the face of someone functionally tossing me a line, but... You sorta condemn Ran for angling on the 'Lol, Fate is dead?' tell from PZ. The thing is, she's sheeping my logic on that one. Why does Ran get a call out for that and I don't since I started the whole shebang?

[Thor665]

Mod - correction V/LA - actual dates are May 12-15, I suck - my bad

[Thor665]

Scum didn't kill any of the confirmed town innocent though and offed Plum?
Nah - I want to hear Llama's result.

Vote: CES

[Thor665]

@Crazy - if Llama announces his result and we lynch one of the unknowns (who isn't the Doc) we're better off going into tomorrow. How is that a bad idea?

[Thor665]

@Crazy - since scum apparently don't give a dang about killing confirmed town, let's hear what confirmed stuff we have first. Than you can try to sell me on the rest.

[Thor665]

Sudo_Nym

(10): Cyberbob, Thor665, chkflip,

LlamaFluff

,

AGar,

Oman

, Cogito Ergo Sum,

Ranmaru

,

SocioPath, Fate

AGar

(8): Crazy, Cyberbob,

Plum

,

LlamaFluff

,

Twilight Sparkle

, Punkin, chkflip,

SocioPath

chkflip still remains tasty looking since one tends to expect at least one busser on Agar and at least a 2nd scum on Sudo - Cyberbob is certainly a contender as well.

Vote: chkflip

(L-2)

We functionally have 3 lynches to hit 1 of 2 scum out of a group of 5-6.

[Thor665]

Vote: Cyberbob

[Thor665]

So, actually what I'm hearing is it's time to have you announce your results and then do a massclaim to verify you're a cop, right?

[Thor665]

Frankly, I'd rather get a verified Doc claim at this stage to verify you - and I'd like to see your results prior to that verification claim. Why is this a bad idea now that you have given us 3 innocents? With a Doc claim that makes you an innocent and then it's 4-3 with a town advantage - aka auto win.

[Thor665]

Works for me.

Unvote Cyberbob
Vote: CES

[Thor665]

@Llama - and sorry for the end there, you not wanting a Doc claim was setting my teeth on edge for a complex gambit staring you. Derf.

[Thor665]

Vote: Punkin

[Thor665]

"NOW THOR WANTS A MASS CLAIM IMMA STRANGLE HIM FSALFDJSAFLKJDFLDS:KFJSDF HE DIDNT DOUBT LLAMAS CLAIM BEFORE THOR I KILL U "
It was the appropriate time to request claims for verification. Late enough it didn't matter to out the doc, early enough not to allow scum a free ride if he was gambiting.

@Socio - agreed, Cop follow is nice for the W/L ratio if you're town, but it does suck a lot of interest out of the game. The most fun I had in about three days was challenging Llama right at the end.

[Thor665]

The chk vote was...DAMNIT!

[Thor665]

Fair enough. GG's tho. I wanted to see more from ya tho, but good stuff all.

My reads were off in this game until midway through...or maybe your expectations are inflated because of my manly beard being too distracting.

This one will probably be added to Sotty's 'Thor's charm is difficult to lynch' evidence stack next time she's rampaging at me though. I'm still not sure how the wagon flowed off me onto you that day.

[Thor665]

I don't find spamminess a scumtell personally - of course I've played multiple games with Ythan too, so...

[Thor665]

I've never been good at the whole breadcrumbing/PR hunting thing. Usually I just sort of pick someone at random and claim deep insights. I get to occasionally look very smart and hope it gets people to ignore the other times.

[Thor665]

@Ran - no worries. I have a playstyle that is universally thought of as townish, but it was also generally agreed upon as being not that good for finding scum. I shifted to this one to up my scumhunting (and personal amusement during games) though I do actually get votes placed against me now.

I'm sure we'll end up crossing paths in another game, I'm like a fungus - I'm all over.