Open 296: MAFIA WINS GONNA TEACH YOU TO BURN

[RangeroftheNorth]

Greetings. I'll be replacing Mute.

@Iceprint: I'm curious what you hoped to gain by knowing who was scum before the role reassignment? Since these people aren't scum anymore, how is this information useful?

[RangeroftheNorth]

1) What's your time zone?

British Summer Time (GMT +1)

2) How 'bout them Cowboys?

CRICKET FTW

3) Do you believe in curses?

LOL NO

4) Will you win this game?

MY RECORD AS TOWN IS RUBBISH

The exact phrasing of the last answer struck me as an odd choice. Mozamis is the only person who answers the questions who feels a need to explicitly state that they are town. He doesn't say his record is rubbish, but that his record as town is rubbish. If this was the only thing I'd noticed about mozamis, I might have ignored it, but there's more.

I know its not a "scumtell" but sometimes scum do replace out cos they r nervous/paranoid lol
So lets keep an eye on Mutes replacement.

This accusation makes no sense. If Mute had asked to replace out after suspicion had started to build on him, it would have been one thing, but asking for a replacement on page four with no one voicing suspicion of him at all is a null-tell. Trying to build up a case against someone without that person actually doing something suspicious is scummy. Using incredibly cautious language doing so seems like you're trying to test the waters and see if its safe before starting a wagon.

LOOK AT MY ABOVE POST! I said "I KNOW ITS NOT A SCUMTELL...".
Thanks for the misrepresent tho

And here's where you see that water isn't safe and back off. You said it wasn't a scumtell, but you also said it was something scum often do. Something scum often do is a scum tell, unless protown players do it too, in which case its a null-tell. If it was a null-tell, why even bring it up in the first place?

Unvote

(If mute was voting)

Vote: mozamis

[RangeroftheNorth]

@mozamis: Some questions for you:
1. What at this point do you think made your vote on Icerint unjustifiable? What has changed since you voted for him?
2. If you're no longer suspicious of Icerint, who do you find suspicious and why?

[RangeroftheNorth]

I'd like to hear from him before deciding to lynch him. I'd also like to hear mozamis's answer to my second question.

[RangeroftheNorth]

Unvote: Mozamis

I'll be keeping on eye on you, but for know, I don't think the most likely explanation for your behavior so far is that you're scum.

Quite frankly, I think the case against Kingpin seems murky and circumstantial at best. Kingpin's reaction so far hasn't given me a good read in either direction. The one thing I would like to see from Kingpin is some actual scum hunting, which has been very lacking so far.

So far, Bella has had four different random votes, one answer to a question I asked Icerint, and absolutely nothing else of value. This seems a lot like active lurking, and seems very suspicious to me. I'd like some actual content from her.

Vote: Bella

for the time being.

Mod: Are we getting replacements for hero and lynchking?

[RangeroftheNorth]

How is your vote on Hero a pressure vote, especially if you say you're going to remove it if other people start voting for him? One vote isn't enough pressure to worry anyone, and if you're going to be removing it if more pressure is applied, it never will be.

Why do you think Hero is a good place for a pressure vote? He hasn't posted anywhere in almost a week, and his only posts here have been confirming/random votes. How is a pressure vote on someone who has clearly disappeared helpful at all? A vote on someone you think is scum would be much, much more useful. A pressure vote on someone actively lurking would be useful. A vote on someone who needs to be replaced doesn't help the town at all.

FOS: Kingpin

[RangeroftheNorth]

It was originally a pressure vote. That was before it became obvious Hero needed a replacement.

THEN WHY ARE YOU KEEPING IT THERE?

[RangeroftheNorth]

Unvote
Vote: Kingpin

[RangeroftheNorth]

You're complaining about cases on you instead of scumhunting?

and this seems unfair. The guy has been attacked -its only reasonable that he defends himself.

Calling mozamis/Kingpin scum team now.

[RangeroftheNorth]

If you'd changed your vote to someone you found suspicious, I wouldn't be voting you now. When you insist that the only other option to voting someone who you admit needs to be replaced is to vote for no one, and you're going to leave your vote on the person who needs to be replaced because "lol, why not?" that makes me suspicious. You're not helping the town. You basically admit that, but you still aren't going to do something that would help the town.

Plus the fact that mozamis is defending you doesn't help.

[RangeroftheNorth]

It took Ranger 2 and a half hours to go from "case against KIngpin circumstantial at best", to voting for him, and calling a scum team.
Wow.

Yes. 2.5 hours and 4 posts from Kingpin, providing nearly as much content as the rest of his posts combined.

[RangeroftheNorth]

@ ranger LOL i did wonder how long it would take someone to say "oh, mozaims, why are you defending kingpin".
Take a look at my ither games. I defend people who i think are town.

And mozamis, I did read your other games. The ones where you were scum and consistently defended your partner.

[RangeroftheNorth]

So, by your logic, it's rational to think I'm scum even though I'm town because my behavior fits some general pattern you've grown accustomed to seeing in scum, and you are willing to risk losing a pro-town player instead of exploring other options?

Thinking someone is scum because they act like scum seems completely rational to me. Why explore other options once you think you've found scum? Its best to remain focused on one player until either you think they aren't scum anymore or you lynch them.

[RangeroftheNorth]

Unvote

[RangeroftheNorth]

If cop is already outed, no reason not to play follow the cop

Vote: No Lynch

[RangeroftheNorth]

In Mini 1133, Mozamis attacked both Erratus Apothos and Maemuki after they made votes against Penpen. That may not have been noticeable without knowing that Penpen was Mozamis's partner, but with that knowledge, I can see a pattern there. I remember noticing something in Mini 1126 too, but I can't seem to find it now.

[RangeroftheNorth]

My question is should Kingpin reveal innocent investigations? Personally, I think he should avoid revealing who he has investigated until he finds a guilty result or the doctor is killed in order to prevent the mafia from killing all of the confirmed innocents.

[RangeroftheNorth]

Follow the cop's effectiveness is entirely reliant on how long it takes the mafia to kill the doctor and how many confirmed innocents we can get during that time. If the mafia can kill a confirmed innocent every night, and one of those happens to be the doctor, that makes it significantly less effective. I'll write up some details on the math and hopefully get a chance to post them before night starts.

[RangeroftheNorth]

Vote: No Lynch

[RangeroftheNorth]

Vote: Stefunny

[RangeroftheNorth]

Who are your innocents?

[RangeroftheNorth]

OR... Some people replace out because they have personal lives. In my opinion requesting a replace is a null tell for sure.
So if you KNOW it's not a scum tell then why suggest we watch Mute's replacement?

Mute

RangeroftheNorth

VOTE: RangeroftheNorth

That's a profoundly bad case. Even if Mozamis's logic had been sound, stefunny's buddying on me would have been a null-tell on me, as scum buddying doesn't say anything about the alignment of the buddied. As it was, Mozamis's logic was horrible, and Stefunny pointing out that it was horrible isn't buddying at all.

lol, well that sucks for ranger. i guess sometimes bussing IS the best policy

vote: Ranger

Who exactly is supposed to be doing the bussing?

If you want to see some actual buddying, take a look at this post. It made me slightly uncomfortable at the time. Couple it with the fact that lane hasn't done any independent scum hunting, and his quick jump onto a particularly poor bandwagon, and that's where I'm putting my vote.

Vote: lane

[RangeroftheNorth]

I think Emp's actions make it clear he was setting a trap to catch scum eager to jump on an easy wagon. I think he succeeded.

[RangeroftheNorth]

I think Emp's actions make it clear he was setting a trap to catch scum eager to jump on an easy wagon. I think he succeeded.

right... which is why you just jumped on my wagon. thank you for proving your own point.

The bandwagon on you had legitimate reasons, and I added the reasons why I chose to join it. The bandwagon on me was based on one ludicrous accusation, and you added nothing when you joined it. These circumstances are hardly the same.

I was saying that if stef would have not been so sweet to you and bussed you ranger, than you would not be in this predicament. stef's "buddying" doesn't look like buddying. it does look like she is pointing out the stupid logic of mozamis. nobody would notice in context of the current situation that was going on when it was said. turns out stef flipped scum, which makes her miniscule buddying of you much more relevant.

So many things wrong with this.
1)Scum are just as likely to buddy with scum as with town.
2)Pointing out why someone's logic is flawed isn't buddying

Ranger- "Couple it with the fact that lane hasn't done any independent scum hunting, and his quick jump onto a particularly poor bandwagon, and that's where I'm putting my vote."

would you care to show me the people that have done "independent scum hunting"? pretty sure it's no one if we're being honest. yeah people said a couple things on day one, but if you remember, we were following the cop. day's 2 and 3 were pretty quick. again thank you for proving your point. this time about the "particularly poor bandwagon".

Let's see, people who have done independent scum hunting:
Icerint: His targetting of you was certainly independent scum hunting. I think that he was largely focusing on information that wasn't necessarily meaningful, but he was certainly attempting to find scum.
Bella: Her read on me wasn't valid, but it was certainly attempting to find scum, something you hadn't done at all on your own.
Nachomamma: Who originally built the case against TheKingpin
MrTrow: Originally stated the case against mozamis
And that's just the very first person on each of these wagons. Other people have put some detailed analysis into this game. You have simply restated things that other people already said. Obviously, most of these cases were misguided, and the fact that these people were attempting to scum hunt doesn't mean they aren't scum (except Ice and Nacho, obviously) but they were at least trying to find scum. Its more than possible given the content we have so far.

also, i'm looking at your iso? and i don't see any independent scum hunting of worth. but good point. and where was i quickly jumping from? naturally its a poor bandwagon, thats exactly what you would say if it was a particularly fantastic bandwagon.

You can see what you want. I built my case against mozamis, and I questioned TheKingpin. Clearly both of these wagons were misplaced, but I used the evidence I had, and the reactions to the wagons is revealing. Like your reaction to my arguments against mozamis.

@Trow, i believe stef to be ranger's partner. at the moment, emp's looking like a good candidate as well but may be a little too obvious which makes me consider him not being scum. thank you for the options and all, but you are def my second choice for ranger's partner, due to the fact you gave me the option of picking bella who i obviously am voting with and have shown no signs of incrimination... emp, which is the obvious choice... and myself. i also have to ask how that particular case on ranger was nullified so quickly? is it just a coincidence that you like the word particular and so does ranger? and that ranger mentioned i got sucked into the trap right after you mentioned it was a trap?

Seriously? Your argument is that because we both used the same word, we must be scum together? I don't even have words to describe how ridiculous that sounds to me. In what way could that possibly be evidence?

or are you ranger's alternate? or is ranger your alternate?

What do you mean here by alternate? I don't understand that.

[RangeroftheNorth]

I think kingpin has a good point.

vote: lane

If you think Kingpin has a good point, why are you voting for lane?

[RangeroftheNorth]

Oh, btw,

Mod: Can we please get a replacement for Hero who hasn't posted on the site in two weeks?

TheButtonmen replaces Hero764. OHAI!
Votecount
RangeroftheNorth (2): Bella, lane
Lane (4) Empking, MrTrow, RangeroftheNorth, ThAdmiral
Empking (1): The_Kingpin
not voting (1): TheButtonmen
With eight alive it takes five to lynch

[RangeroftheNorth]

I'm happy with my vote where it is. I'd like to hear more from Bella. Her very limited posting is not helping the town.

[RangeroftheNorth]

I think both haven't participated much although that isn't really tbm's fault. I want to hear each if their views on each right away. Personally, I think Bella's lurking has been a bit flagrant for scum, but it has certainly been antitown.

[RangeroftheNorth]

Actually I'd be comfortable with a No Lynch right now.

Why on earth would we no lynch right now?

[RangeroftheNorth]

Not today. Scum just kills the confirmed townie.

[RangeroftheNorth]

I've been neglecting this game a bit. I apologize for that.

I've said it before, and I'm saying it again now.

Bella, your play is hurting the town

If you are town, start posting.

I currently think Bella is more likely to be town. Lane jumping on to Bella's poorly thought out wagon that quickly without adding anything seems really unlikely if they were both scum.

My current bet for scum is TheButtonman. He hasn't even showed up today yet, and after Hero's behavior, that's a bad sign.

Also, everyone please note that we have a deadline in place.

Vote: TheButtonman

[RangeroftheNorth]

@ThAdmiral: i think he wants you to comment on his 'wrong tool for the (claimed) job' accusation of me. (+iso?)

Bella you still haven't answered my question.

Which question?

You're being all quiet like over there, other then the comment by Stef about Mutes slot has anything stood out to you?

My current bet for scum is TheButtonman. He hasn't even showed up today yet, and after Hero's behavior, that's a bad sign.

Uhm ranger: do you remember requesting a replacement for hero for 'not posting on the site for 2 weeks'?
note: during his in-between absence from this game he also was gone everywhere else, coming back with a 'sorry been busy' seems credible to me.

I agree more posts by more people 'would be nice', however getting hero involved in the lurker claim, is not improving your point.

Perhaps you're right. Both players have been somewhat inactive on the site. In my experience, however, slots that lurk across multiple players are usually scum slots. Its possible that this is just a coincidence, but as it stands right now, distinguishing between Bella and TBM is very difficult. I believe that one of them is scum, but neither have participated enough in the game for me to get a very good read. All I have is a pretty minor town-tell on Bella, and a pretty minor scum tell on TBM. Which is why I was voting for TBM. If we hadn't had such an imposing deadline, I wouldn't consider it enough for a lynch, but with the deadline closing in, and neither Bella or TBM showing any sign of participating, we absolutely had to get rid of one of them. They'd both be liabilities in Lylo, and their lack of contribution is highly anti-town.

[RangeroftheNorth]

Vote: No Lynch

[RangeroftheNorth]

Well, first off, we're in Lylo, so no votes until you're sure. Shouldn't need to be said, but I'm saying it anyway.

Right now, I'm most suspicious of Bella. Her continued absence would be very convenient for scum. That said, its pretty blatant. I'm going to check her meta and read through the thread again. Expect a larger post tomorrow.

@Bella: I really hope you intend to contribute to the game at this point. If you aren't going to post more, please replace out.

Votecount
RangeroftheNorth (1)

[RangeroftheNorth]

I apologize for taking longer than I meant to get this post out, although I'm not sure what it matters, as I seem to be playing by myself.

I looked over Bella's meta, and it looks like this type of behavior isn't far out of the norm. Its annoying and anti-town, but I don't think it means she's scum.

I've been doing some reading and thinking the last couple of days. Here's what I've come up with:

1) Bella has rarely posted and hasn't posted much content. but this seems to be in character for Bella.

2) Bella has been attempting to find scum. Her case against me wasn't good, but it might show that she was actually looking for scum. Having strong scum reads even if they aren't well backed up seems in-character for TownBella

3)MrTrow was the first on the lane wagon. His post was well reasoned. It could have been a partner preemptively bussing a partner who screwed up. He also voted for lane day 1. Put both together, it doesn't feel like bussing to me, but I'm not entirely ruling it out.

4) It would have made a lot of sense for MrTrow to kill Empking last night. Bellla had already expressed suspicion of me and no one else, and I had said that I was suspicious of Bella. Bringing the both of us to Lylo would be very good for him.

Getting 2 replacements during lylo would be hilarious to me. Anyone who actually posts will be easier to get a read on than Bella has been so far.

[RangeroftheNorth]

And why do you think I'm scum in the first place?

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RangeroftheNorth (1)

[RangeroftheNorth]

Well, that wasn't terribly surprising. It was you, right MrTrow?