Open 302: JUNGLE REPUB nope game over! Party time!

Regfan · Post Post #42 (isolation #0) » Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:21 am

Confirm 5190.

It's nearing 4am, heading to bed should catch up tommorow.

Regfan · Post Post #125 (isolation #1) » Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:37 pm

Considering Toffee hasn't posted in the past 24 hours I'm going to go ahead and attain ownership of this slot. I've been trying to keep up with this thread in the past few hours in case there was a chance that I could either give Toffee my reads or be able to play so I'm already up to date. We need more content from a few of the lurkers, getting a gut-scum read from Wicked, his posts seem to all be objective opinions on events rather than stating his actual thoughts.

Neils post here seems like a geninue town-tell. I believe he wouldn't have attempted to fake getting the numbers of mafia in the game incorrect on pupose, with that said it's stoll possible that he's a werewolf. Overall leaning town on Neil, Neil vs Empking seems TvT.

Neil, if you believe Empking will begin talking more if he's pressured via votes why would you state so openly in the post that contained your vote?

Empking calling Neils post scummy AtE in this post is a massive massive stretch. Neil stating he regrets getting getting into a back-and-forth over semantics is a null-tell. With that said majority of Empkings post seem more of a misguided townie than anything else. Leaning town read.

Deity just reitterates his poor reasoning for his vote on Empking in this post. The extent of the logic behind his vote is "Empking is trying too hard to look townie therefore mafia". Both mafia and town want to look town, therefore attempting to look town or looking town is a mere null-tell unless you have meta to prove that Empking attempts to act more pro-town as mafia. Leaning scum read.

Deity, what experience have you had in mafia before this game?

TwistedSpoons vote here screams over-eager opportunistic mafia. It's just an attempt at jumping and manipulating someones post to start of the votes. This post by Twisted is entirely fluff, he fencesits on everyone actives allignment and does nothing else. Leaning scum on Twisted.

Vote: Twisted

Regfan · Post Post #193 (isolation #2) » Sat Apr 30, 2011 3:45 am

Empking wrote: But he didn't say that. He said that he would regret it. This is called a lie because if he would regret it then he wouldn't have gotten into it. Surely lies in order to get sympathy are scummy?

This is incorrect logic, let me explain why. I know I'm going to regret going to university every day because my uni lecturers are incredibly bad, however I still go, is me going a lie? No. Is me stating that I'm going to regret going a lie? No.

Also, the fact that there are two mafia parties in this holds no ressemblence to a "Lovers" mafia game whatsoever, wolves are going to play the exact same way mafia would in this situation, there's no reason for them not to. Even if their partner gets lynched they know town still have to mafia-hunt.

Wickedestjr wrote: I suspect Twistedspoon as well, but how was his vote over-eager and opportunistic?

He jumped and voted Neil before the game had even started, what way isn't that over-eager? Also, my gut scumread on you was becuase your ISO posts #1-6 all resemble coaching rather than actually scum-hunting. It's been slightly reduced since however I'd like for you to go into your town-read on MoI for me.

neil113 wrote: I also want to ISO Deity, except his only posts are concerning Emp. I don't think he warrants much of a ISO, or a concern... not saying he reads town for me though. I can definitely see him being scum.

Let me get this right. You want to ISO Deity, you don't think ISO'ing him is worthwhile but you can see him as scum? That makes no sense whatsoever and screams of an attempt to seem as if you've scumhunting.

Unvote: TwistedSpoon
Vote: Neil113

Regfan · Post Post #195 (isolation #3) » Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:00 am

The argument that X is defending Y and Y is mafia therefore X must be mafia too holds no ground nor does the argument X is defending Y and Y is mafia therefore it's impossible for X and Y to be buddies.

I've seen both occur in previous games that I've witnessed, for example in this game Reck defended Dram almost throughout the entire game, in this particular case the fact it's a lovers game is meaningless because Dram/Reck weren't lover partners.

Regfan · Post Post #201 (isolation #4) » Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:31 am

Empking wrote:A counterexample does not discredit the entire thing. I've seen people fake claim as town does that mean that fake claiming isn't a scum tell?

This is correct, however your argument for MoI being mafia seesms to highly hinge on his defence of Neil rather than much else.

Neil1113 wrote: 'm sorry, but I'm not sure which of this seems to come from scum motivation, therefore I don't know how to adequately defend myself? Twisted hasn't really posted anything of value that I remember seeing (which his ISO proved when I did ISO him), and so I was posting my thought process.

You didn't even take the time to read the post I quoted of you? It never mentioned TS, not once, the post was about your suspicion of Deity. I'm feeling comfortable with my vote right now.

HezLucky - Can you attempt to explain what you mean by "Makes me feel uncomfortable", which part of MoI's #8 and Empkings #6 seem off?

Regfan · Post Post #209 (isolation #5) » Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:53 am

Empking wrote:1. He's making statements he knows to be untrue (like the leading, loaded questions deal) (we know he knows them to be true because he refuses to explain why he thinks the question was loaded and leading).

You'll need to be way more specific about this, I just went through his ISO and found I agree with most of his points.

Empking wrote:2. He editted a quote in order to misrepresent a point.

I read through this multiple times. It reads more like an attempted smear campaign however given the context it was in I find it to be unallignment related. Think about it this way:

ScumMoI would want to attempt to cast suspicion and misrepresent your words to have you lynched.
TownMoI would want to attempt to cast suspicion and misrepresent your words because he believes you're mafia and wants you lynched.

Neil - If you have already clariffied it my fault, do you mind linking me to the post you did so though?

Deity - Let me get this right, you agree with Twisted saying this is more complicated due to there being two mafia teams. Then you move on to say that if Empking flips scum Neil is town?

Regfan · Post Post #222 (isolation #6) » Sat Apr 30, 2011 8:59 am

Empking wrote: No. ScumMOI doesn't care who he lynches as long as it isn't him or neil (and as such would misrepresent my words). TownMOI wants the truth to come out and lynch scum and feels that since he's only human he should allow people to come to their own opinions because he's not necessarily right (and thius would not misrepresent my words).

ScumMOI wants to avoid suspicion therefore does care how he acts and who he lynches, therefore he won't attempt to string together weak pieces of evidence to push the lynch. TownMOI wants to lynch mafia, he has stated he believes you're mafia therefore he does everything he can to get you lynched.

Neil113 wrote: I looked with zeal for that post, and then realized I never posted it. I don't know why I didn't post it, but now I feel like an idiot. I never clarified it, therefore your vote is understandable. I can't really defend either, except by saying sorry? That sucks.

Ugh. Not the reaction I was expecting at all, I thought you would attempt to deny the existance of such a scum-tell. I'm going to move my vote back for now, Twisted is still refraining from posting anything ressembling content.

Unvote: Neil113
Vote: TwistedSpoon

Regfan · Post Post #224 (isolation #7) » Sat Apr 30, 2011 9:04 am

Empking wrote:Are you seriously suggesting that dishonestly trying to get another player lynched is a town tell?

No, I'm suggesting that MoI misquotting you is a null-tell and that you're tunnelling on him without standing back and realizing that his play is understandable from a town and scum point of view, thus nothing to base the crux of your case around.

Regfan · Post Post #227 (isolation #8) » Sat Apr 30, 2011 9:11 am

Empking wrote:
Regfan wrote:
Empking wrote:Are you seriously suggesting that dishonestly trying to get another player lynched is a town tell?

No, I'm suggesting that MoI misquotting you is a null-tell and that you're tunnelling on him without standing back and realizing that his play is understandable from a town and scum point of view, thus nothing to base the crux of your case around.

But ScumMOI wants to avoid suspicion therefore does care how he acts and who he lynches, therefore he won't attempt to string together weak pieces of evidence to push the lynch?

Yes, meaning him misquotting you wasn't something that was done intentionally meaning it's not the scum-tell you make it out to be.

Regfan · Post Post #253 (isolation #9) » Mon May 02, 2011 10:00 am

zMuffinMan, my opinion on Empking is leaning town, I've spectated a few of his games and he is exceedingly more outgoing as town, with that said I also believe MoI is town thus my frustration at Empkings inability to realize the case he has against MoI is incredibly weak.

Not feeling as bad about Twisted as I was earlier as well, his slight-town read on MoI rather than an attempt to throw dirt elsewhere reads as a town-tell. Neil dropped of activity wise the first second that pressure was released.

Unvote TwistedSpoon
Vote: Neil113

Regfan · Post Post #269 (isolation #10) » Tue May 03, 2011 7:14 am

Neil1113 wrote: Lol. What pressure?

Earlier today when Empking was pushing towards your lynch you were incredibly active and willing to state your thoughts, however the day he stopped posting so did you. It's as if you felt of the hook.

MagnaofIllusion wrote: Ok … I’m not making a Empking official case. At least right now. After reviewing my thoughts and the thread I think his play speaks for itself.

If you don't mind, can you elaborate. I'm reading his play as over overzealous and paranoid town rather than anything else.

We need to get more people talking.

Caboose - What's your opinion on Empkings play thus far?
Sloth - Would you consider DK to be noobtown or noobscum at the moment and why?
CJDrum - If you had to name two people you thought were town, who would they be and why?
Hez - What do you make of the fact that Empking is on L-2?

Regfan · Post Post #361 (isolation #11) » Sat May 07, 2011 6:11 pm

I should be caught up within 24 hours.

Regfan · Post Post #393 (isolation #12) » Sun May 08, 2011 12:35 pm

Alright, internet is offically back up and I have a week or so until the next party period kicks in, I've read through the thread in the last few hours and I'm finally caught up. It's longer than I anticipated so I'll cut it into two parts.

Spoiler: Catch up post #1

Spoiler: Catch up post #2

Town Reads (From Strongest to Weakest):

Empking, Wickedestjr, MoI, DeityKabuto

Null:

zMuffinMan, Hezlucky, Cjdrum

Scum Reads (From Strongest to Weakest):

Twistedspoon, Sloth, Neil113, Caboose

Everyone that is currently voting Empking needs to unvote, he's not getting lynched today and keeping your vote on him means you're openly stating you have no alternate reads in the game. I have yet to read Hezluckys recent catch-up wall but I'll do so just after I get something to eat.

Reconfirm Vote: TwistedSpoon

Regfan · Post Post #401 (isolation #13) » Sun May 08, 2011 8:18 pm

DeityKabuto wrote: @Regfan
That was a very persuasive strategy that you just did there. Why all of a sudden do you want us to not have Empking lynched?

My disagreement with an Empking lynch is nothing new, I fail to see how you can continue to push towards his lynch given his claim.

Neil113 wrote: #1. I did not say that. I said as far as people we (I) could focus on, it'd be MUCH more productive to focus on someone that can defend themselves, not someone that's absent from the game. Do you disagree?

Yes. I disagree strongly. Pressuring someone who is less active is going to force them to post more thus providing more content and more information to read them on. Removing them from the 'To pressure' pool is just going to allow them to continue sliding on by.

Neil113 wrote: It looked as though at least he had a reasoning behind his vote that I found valid.

In what was is "If he's town he will die tonight anyway" valid reasoning for voting someone?

Sloth - I'm awaiting answers from you.
zMuffin - Apart from Twisted who would you consider your stronger suspects to be?

Regfan · Post Post #419 (isolation #14) » Fri May 13, 2011 10:01 pm

Mod, can you delete/clear the previous post, sorry posted on the wrong account.

For ISO purposes:

Duplicity wrote:
Werewolves, currently it's 5 v 3 v 2. If we mslynch today, and a VT dies tonight a situation arises where it's almost impossible for you to win therefore it's in your best interests to scumhunt with us today as well as aim for scum if we msylnch.

LynchMePls wrote: Regfan: What about the arguing was TvT? Why did you say you were overall leaning town on Neil, say nothing about "overall" on Empking, and then call it TvT?

My town-read on Empking at that point was mostly due to his posts attracting attention towards himself, something that mafia don't benefit from whatsoever, however stating it then would lead towards him changing his natural playstyle making him harder to read him. I was hoping merely stating that I believed it was T v T would reduce the argument they were having so other players could be assesed.

--
I can agree with majority of your catch-up post LMP however I don't understand the strength of your Neil-Town read, I shared it intially however as the day progressed the quality of his posts reduced significantly. I don't see DK's hammer as a scum-tell at all, though that's because of [Redacted].

--
Majority of my reads haven't changed given the two flips though I'm going to need to read peoples reactions and actions during the MoI vs Empking debate. I'm intersted in hearing zMuffins thoughts on a HezLucky+Wicked pairing because I don't see it at all.

--
Sloth still seems to be attempting to dodge questions that were directed towards him, I'll restate them for convienances sake:
1. If you believe DK is noobscum why haven't you stated or attempted to push for his lynch?
2. If you had to name two people you would outright refuse to lynch at the moment who would they be and why?

--
That reaction to the death completly contradicts your play throughout yesterday especially given your willingness to lynch a seer claim.

Vote: Cjdrum

Regfan · Post Post #422 (isolation #15) » Sat May 14, 2011 1:24 am

zMuffinMan wrote: That's an interesting statement, and I'm not actually sure what you're suggesting here (since it really doesn't make sense), or why you made this statement.

Lets go through the scenario, Currently there's 5 VT's, 3 Mafia and 2 Werewolves alive.
- If a VT gets lynched it becomes 4 VT's, 3 Mafia and 2 Werewolves alive.
- If a VT gets shot tonight it bcomes 3 VT's, 3 Mafia and 2 Werewolves alive.

This leads tommorow to having three possible scenarios:

Scenario 1: Vanilla Townie gets lynched.

This leaves 2 Vanilla Townies, 3 Scum, 2 Werewolves.
In this position if the werewolves don't nightkill mafia the games over with the mafia winning.

Scenario 2: Werewolf gets lynched.

This leaves 3 Vanilla Townies, 3 Scum, 1 Werewolves.
In this position if werewolves don't nightkill mafia the games over with the mafia winning.

Scenario 3: Scum gets lynched.

This leaves 2 Vanilla Townies, 2 Scum, 2 Werewolves.
In this position if they kill a VT, it becomes impossible for town to win, meaning the final VT picks which allignment wins, something werewolves should want to avoid.

Regfan · Post Post #443 (isolation #16) » Mon May 16, 2011 5:30 am

Wow. Alright, I've got an exam I've been studying for on tommorow, I'll catch-up then.

Regfan · Post Post #452 (isolation #17) » Mon May 16, 2011 5:38 pm

Umbrage, I believe Sloth is due for a prod very soon

- I saw him posting elsewhere on the site but he's been avoiding this game, he stated he was 'catching up' close to three days ago.
--------
1. zMuffin, the entire reasoning behind stating that werewolves need to take into account mafia's numbers should be obvious, scum factions generally find themselves aiming towards killing pro-town and dangerous players rather than possible other scum team players thus it's important to make it known that the werewolves are in the same as we are in terms of hunting scum.

2. Can you post the links to the games you read of HezLuckys and elaborate in the observations you made from them.

3. If memory serves me correctly the last game we played together you made you it quite clear you're not a fan of using meta, nor do you think that meta is a reason that should lead towards someones lynch, correct me if I'm wrong.

--------

1. Fairly sure Cjdrum just town-slipped here, if I've read this right he still doesn't understand the mechanics of the setup - The werewolves are the one with the kill, not the mafia.

2. Cjdrum, still waiting on more reads from you in relation to everyone else in the game.

--------

1. WickedJestrs post with his reads screams town here, mafia generally attempt to avoid stating certain thoughts on other players as it cuts down possible future mslynches.

2. Wicked, if you had to name two people were town for sure here, who would they be and why?

--------

1. DK's vote on Neil is awful, attacking Neil for pushing on Empking which is the same thing that DK did is contradictory.

2. I'm still unable to attain a proper read on him, everything is screaming slight VItown/VIscum. Deity, can you provide any game links to completed scum-games of yours?

--------

1. HezLucky - You're still yet to explain your 'strong' town read you had on Caboose.

--------

Town Reads:

Wickedestjr, MoI, Cjdrum

Null:

zMuffinMan, Caboose, DK

Scum Reads:

Neil113, Hezlucky, Sloth.

Unvote Cjdrum, Vote: HezLucky

Regfan · Post Post #454 (isolation #18) » Mon May 16, 2011 6:53 pm

zMuffinMan wrote:I had issues with the way you were using meta last time we played. Your suspicion of Scumhunter seemed to revolve entirely around meta, so I didn't think you had much of a case on him. And I thought you were drawing the wrong conclusions from your use of Tragedy's meta. But I'm not opposed to the use of meta (and I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion, considering I did read Tragedy's meta, I just disagreed with your conclusions).

You're correct, I just read through it. My apologies.

zMuffinMan wrote: As for Hez's meta, one game is at N3 now (he was town Doc that died N2, but I'm not sure whether it's appropriate to discuss an ongoing game) and the other game is Mini 1151 where he was a townie that survived to the endgame.

Thanks, I'll read through it after dinner. What's your thoughts on the following people at the moment:

-Sloth
-MoI
-DK

Regfan · Post Post #457 (isolation #19) » Mon May 16, 2011 10:46 pm

neil1113 wrote:Reg, you have me listed as scum? Any particular reason, or do I just rub you the wrong way?

Regfan wrote: I don't understand the strength of your Neil-Town read, I shared it intially however as the day progressed the quality of his posts reduced significantly

Regfan · Post Post #471 (isolation #20) » Wed May 18, 2011 2:07 am

Exhausted at the moment, going to give this thread a proper re-read in the morning.

Cjdrum - So you're placing your vote on the lurker? What exactly happened to all of that ISOing that you stated you would do in the opening post today?

Regfan · Post Post #483 (isolation #21) » Thu May 19, 2011 4:15 am

Ugh. It's 1am and I haven't gotten around to this game yet. I'll do it in the morning.

Umbrage, Sloth hasn't posted in more than 5 days, have you sent him a prod?

Regfan · Post Post #501 (isolation #22) » Fri May 20, 2011 4:46 am

MoI wrote: If you believe this to be credible what is your opinion on Neil’s mix-ups pre-game?

I believe I've stated my opinion on this multiple times, but for covienaces sake I read it as a town-tell initally however his posting has reduced in content and it seems as if he's attempting to skeet through the game without stating many opinions.

Post #476 by DeityKabuto - Be more specific please, who do you think the 'several scum' pushing on you are. Can you provide examples of them pushing on you?
Post #478 by HezLucky - I can see where your town-read on Caboose is coming from now.

HezLucky wrote: Lynch Muffin now. He has constantly tried to misinterpret every single thing I have said in an attempt to get me lynched. His arguments hold absolutely no water, and when I refute them and he even admits that certain parts of my refutation are completely correct, he spews even more crap in an attempt to cover up his mistakes.

Flip this around for a second.
What scum-motivation does he have for admitting his arguments are wrong?

Wickedestjr wrote: Also, this is extremely inconsistent. You suspected Twistedspoon as well. If there was good reasons to be voting him, then why does my vote look like a chainsaw defense? You didn't have any problem with my reasons for voting TS yesterday (that I can remember), so trying to make it scummy now is only making yourself look bad.

I can agree with this, everyone shared a fairly common reasoning behind suspecting Twisted, and the fact that zMuffin pushed on him for close to similar reasoning that Wicked did just to turn around and attack Wicked reads as a contradiction.

Post #487 by DeityKabuto - You say that at least one, likely both of zMuffinMan and Neil are scum, do you believe they're on the same scum-team? Yes or no. What makes you believe they are if the answer is yes?

Post #491 by Wickedestjr - Ugh. I actually agree with a large portion of this. The fact he stated he was going to do 'ISO's and them refrained from adding any new content as well as the fact he hasn't once attempted to push a lynch towards Neil completly contradicts everything from yesterdays play.

DeityKabuto wrote: Cjdrum was wrong about Empking, so he may be wrong about neil or MoI.

What? Explain this. You state you believe Cjdrum is mafia, therefore what would it matter if he was 'right or wrong' about his suspicions?

Sloth - Lol, saw the replacing out coming.

zMuffinMan wrote: On that note, if anyone thinks Hez isn't scum, I want to know why.

I'm currently voting him however I do have some hesitations. I'm unsure if he would come into the game making a ranked list of players he suspects knowing full well that the players he states he suspects greatly will likely be targetting him.

MoI wrote: I think the relative difficulty in gathering any sort of wagon on DK despite is scummy play at the start of today is a sign he’s scum of some sort. Were he Town VI I think there would be much more of a push to run him up. I can understand a few Town having reservations but there is no way with 5 anti-Town players it should be this difficult.

I can actually agree with this, given the numbers being 5town, 5antitown I think the antitown players would be jumping on any [Excuse me for saying this] "easy lynch" possible.

Town Reads:

Wickedestjr, MoI, Caboose

Null:

zMuffinMan, Cjdrum.

Scum Reads:

Sloth, Neil113, HezLucky, DeityKabuto.

Going to wait for Sloths replacement, but right now I could be convinced to move to DK.

Regfan · Post Post #506 (isolation #23) » Fri May 20, 2011 7:57 am

Unless I've miscounted CJDrum is at L-2, not L-1.

Regfan · Post Post #515 (isolation #24) » Fri May 20, 2011 11:09 am

Deity, instead of attempting to pressure people to hammer this ending the day I would much rather you respond to the questions I asked of you.

Regfan · Post Post #518 (isolation #25) » Fri May 20, 2011 11:40 am

DeityKabuto wrote:I said hold on, I don't have much time right now. I am not on 24/7.

Then why ask for a hammer to occur

today?

Regfan · Post Post #528 (isolation #26) » Mon May 23, 2011 11:09 am

Welcome havingfitz.

In light of the scum flip I'm going to need to do some re-reading should have my thoughts up later tonight or by latest tommorow. Deity, the fact that it's a new day doesn't mean that you can continue to avoid answering the questions I've constantly had to ask you, here they are:

1. Post #476 by DeityKabuto - Be more specific please, who do you think the 'several scum' pushing on you are. Can you provide examples of them pushing on you?

2. Post #487 by DeityKabuto - You say that at least one, likely both of zMuffinMan and Neil are scum, do you believe they're on the same scum-team? Yes or no. What makes you believe they are if the answer is yes?

3. You state you believe Cjdrum is mafia, therefore what would it matter if he was 'right or wrong' about his suspicions?

Regfan · Post Post #534 (isolation #27) » Mon May 23, 2011 9:52 pm

DeityKabuto wrote: 1. You are potentially one of the scum pushing on me, neil is also one of them. This is not an OMGUS. You are so eager to have me answer your questions. And Neil is so eager to get me off his d**k.

I'm eager to get you to get answers from you because because you avoiding doing so appeared as if you were scared or had no answer to them. I haven't attempted to push on you at all, infact I don't see you being mafia with cjdrum due to threatening a deadline and attempting to push his lynch without him having a chance to respond to it.

DeityKabuto wrote: 2. I can see you and Neil as werewolf, but I can't see Neil and ZMuffinMan as Werewolf.

I fail to see any possible way you could believe that Neil and I were a team after I attempted to push his lynch during a portion of yesterday.

Given the interactions yesterday and the fact that Wicked pushed the Cjdrum case almost signle-handly I don't believe there's any possible way he's mafia as he'd know that bussing could potentially lead towards him being night-killed and the town-cred gained and lynch of his partner all being for nothing.

Although I can understand most of Havingfitz's thought process in Post #532 a great deal of his summary is just commentry on what has occured without stating if he believes it's a scum-tell, town-tell or unallignment related. I'm interested in hearing exactly what his reads are based on, the mention of zMuffins avatar being possibly related with this game is a massive stretch. Though I really don't see Havingfitz as mafia, the interactions between Sloth and Cjrum in Post #275, 276, 277 and 278 make them very unlikely to be partners. Cjdrums vote on Sloth in Post #465 solidfies this. So with all that in mind, HavingFitz is either Town or Werewolf.

Cjdrums mentions the fact he believes one of Neil or Empking are mafia in Post #133. Due to his massive lack of actvity in the game you would believe that his vote would be straight towards Neil on day two giving the reasoning he stated in this post exactly allowing him to seem as if he's scumhunting while pushing towards a town-lynch. The fact he didn't do this at all screams as if his intial post was an attempt at distancing between Neil and himself.

I still am failing to see the case put up against MoI at all, from what I can tell it revolves around his interaction with Empking however I find his frustration with Empking and push towards him a town-tell if anything and can understand his annoyance at Empkings refusal to quit discussing semantics. Could someone summarize it for me because I'm reading him as town at the current moment.

I'm unsure of how to read zMuffinMan, I can understand part of the case against him but I'm unsure if I agree with it. His behaviour is drastically different from the previous game we played together however he replaced into that game and it didn't involve any players such as the players in this game ie, there were a lot of lurkers in that game. I'm going ISO and read into him in the upcoming days.

I still believe HezLucky is scum, I've noticed he has almost avoided him completly in his rating system while still commenting on his posts, an example would be he pointed out he beleived Cjdrum was confused between the werewolves and the mafia, confusion of that sort is a town-tell or that's how I generally read or in this game misread it however HezLucky never accounted for that comment when it came to rating Cjdrum.

Overall Reads

Town Reads:

Wickedestjr, MagnaofIllusion.

Town or Werewolf Reads:

HavingFitz, DeityKabuto

Mafia Reads:

Neil113, HezLucky

Null Reads:

zMuffinMan

Vote: Neil113

Though, to be honest I'm unsure if it's optimal to aim for werewolves or mafia today, MoI I'd like your thoughts on this.

Regfan · Post Post #536 (isolation #28) » Mon May 23, 2011 10:19 pm

zMuffinMan wrote:I don't actually think I'm playing drastically different in this game. There's probably a few differences because the setup and activity levels are different, but apart from that, I'd like to know what you think is so different.

In the previous game that we played your thoughts and opinions on people weren't held back in any respect you were willing to state when you believe bad play is occuring as well as when you believe bad play is being misread. You avoided doing that throughout most of the attack against Empking and again on Twistedspoon.

Regfan · Post Post #538 (isolation #29) » Mon May 23, 2011 11:44 pm

zMuffinMan wrote:eh, I disagree. I wasn't as active as I was in our other game, but I do think I called the attack on Empking bad when a wagon actually formed on him (although I don't think he was playing badly, it was just a bad wagon because he wasn't playing in a scummy way). As for TS, I think he was playing in a legitimately scummy manner; it wasn't as simple as bad play like Tragedy's.

A great deal of the reasoning against Empking was worse than logic you attacked me for in regards to Tragedy, though to be bringing up the flaws in it would likely not have changed anything. Though I do agree in regards to finding Twistedspoon legitimatly scummy.

Regfan · Post Post #540 (isolation #30) » Tue May 24, 2011 12:05 am

DeityKabuto wrote:As I said, I want the Mafia to claim now and help the town.

It's literally impossible for mafia to joint with town, if you're attempting to gambit it's rather pointless as everyone left in this game is rather experienced. At this point we need a cross-kill to have any chance in the game. Can you explain what makes you believe that Neil is a werewolf and not a mafia?

Regfan · Post Post #555 (isolation #31) » Tue May 24, 2011 7:54 pm

Neil113 wrote: Because Deity is Mafia? Scum slip?

I don't think he scum-slipped and I don't believe he's an Evil Sheep, his attitude towards the Cjdrum lynch makes him very unlikely to be paired with Cjdrum.

Neil113 wrote: Also Regfan, you didn't make a case against me. You made a cast against CJ, then voted me. I can't accurately defend CJ's actions no more then you can defend anyone else's actions? While some of your points would be valid (some, not all) against CJ, that's the problem. They are against CJ.

You're attempting to ignore the fact that I was voting you throughout a portion of yesterday. Although Cjdrums actions alone cannot explain a vote his interactions with players holds a lot of weight, especially in this sort of game.

MoI wrote: I’d be strongly pushing your wagon today if I didn’t think you were likely Evil Sheep.

You're going to have to explain why you believe DK is an Evil Sheep rather than a werewolf becasuse I believe the opposite.

MoI wrote: I believe the optimal play for today is lynching a Werewolf. The Evil Sheep only remain a threat to them from the standpoint of victory due to numbers. Eliminating another Evil Sheep more or less eliminates that threat to the Wolves.

That would make sense, the only thing that worries me is that if we do indeed manage to lynch a werewolf today they have less incentive to shoot towards the Evil Sheep as leaving them alive would leave more suspects for town to lynch towards.

Wickedestjr wrote: While I'm glad you correctly see me as town, I find it hard to believe you actually get this impression from the post where I gave my reads. It seems like fairly weak evidence to say that it 'screams town'. Regfan, can you elaborate on this point? Posting reads seems to be something that many players do all the time regardless of allignment. While I can see how it could be a very slight towntell, I don't see how it 'screams town'. Also, you make no mention of LynchMePls despite him doing the exact same thing (and even putting his reads in order of scummiest to towniest). Any particular reason?

Although stating reads is more a player-tell than an allignment related tell in a game where there's only one allignment with a night-kill players with Evil Sheep or Werewolve allignments would attempt to not stand out as much as possible, attempting to push a case strongly isn't the way to do that. Although LMP stated a list of reads he never truly pushed a lynch, he rather stood back and showed intent to lurker-lynch. I'll attempt to explain it simplier:

1. Evilsheep would refrain from strongly bussying Cjdrum for one reason, that reason being that leading on a scum lynch increases the likelihood that player gets night-killed. This would mean that Evilsheep would lose two members with no gain.

2. Werewolves would refrain from strongly pushing a lynch in the manner you did on Cjdrum for two reasons, one being if they do indeed get a scum lynched later in the game they're going to have to explain why they're still alive. The second reason being if Cjdrum flipped town the Evilsheep would have near-majority of the numbers in the game and would happilly push towards you with the town for causing a msylnch in such a position.

Wickedestjr wrote: Why do you need to know this?

Simple. There are few town-players left alive, although scumhunting to find the scum is needed what is also needed is to work out who you believe the other town members are to avoid and protect them from getting lynched.

Wickedestjr wrote: This question looks odd considering you had Sloth as one of your top three suspects at the time of this post. Can you explain this please?

His vote on Sloth seemed opportunistic due to the fact he never stated any real suspicion towards Sloth earlier, especially due to the fact he DID state suspicion towards alternate players.

HavingFitz wrote: In the following quote what did you mean when you say Wicked can't be mafia?I have a town read on him but your comment on him still confuses me. Is it because you think if he was mafia bussing his partner that the werewolves would pick up on the bussing and try to eliminate him for suspicion of being mafia? Why is Wicked not a werewolf suspect to you?

I believe I've explained it above.

HavingFitz wrote: Our main objective for any lynch should be to find and eliminate the werewolves. Getting any scum would be good but getting the ones who can kill has to outweigh targetting mafia.

Valid point.

Regfan · Post Post #568 (isolation #32) » Wed May 25, 2011 10:45 pm

Neil113 wrote: Can someone please make a case on me and stop saying you're so certain I'm scum? I'm town for the freaking record, and it's pissing me off now. Three of you now, call me scum, place your vote on me, and I've yet to see a single point / case made that wasn't about CJ. You three (Reg, Wicked, and Deity) are officially making this game no fun. Please for the love of all that is holy, SCUM HUNT. If you were, you wouldn't be voting me because I'm not scum. Good god you three piss me off.

This is mostly AtE as well as a contradiction about you stating that we should and aren't "Scumhunting" while you make no thoughts of your own known. I've made my case very clear against you, you shy away from discussion whenever your name isn't brought up as well as refrain from stating any real reads you yourself have. Your argument with Empking reading back was a lot of noise and you have yet to comment on what you believe peoples reactions to that noise you created leads to.

Post #565 by HezLucky - All this proves is that Magna doesn't approve of your playstyle and thus treats you as a lesser player, it's certaintly something I dislike about his playstyle however it's certaintly not a scum-tell nor is it anything that leads towards him being a werewolf.

Post #567 by zMuffinMan - Enoughs enough, do you believe Wicked is scum of either faction? Yes or no. It's a simple question.

I'm going to do some ISO'ing of DK and Sloth/HavingFitz later today because I consider them the most likely werewolves and considering we need to lynch a werewolf today I'll likely move my vote to one of them.

Regfan · Post Post #590 (isolation #33) » Fri May 27, 2011 1:52 pm

HezLucky wrote:Seriously, this is what you guys are looking for, and I have spent the last two-three days SHOWING YOU WHO THE WEREWOLVES ARE. Magna and Muffin.

Other than saying, I suspect x and y therefore they must be werewolves together explain what linkages you believe you see between Magna and Muffin.

HezLucky wrote: Are you scum? You are sheeping Magna's terrible terrible reads and you just defended him from my 565.

1) Apart from his read on you what reads of Magnas do you believe are terrible?
2) Your 565 had no real game related information, it was merely a personal attack, if you believe otherwise you need to step back and re-read it.

zMuffinMan wrote: @Regfan,
What are you talking about? I've been suggesting the likelihood that Hez+Wicked are scum together since the beginning of D2.

Are you meaning to say that Wickeds efforts in pushing the Cjdrum lynch yesterday hasn't changed your opinion of Wicked in any way? If so I'd like for you to answer the following two questions.

1) What evil sheep motivation is there for pushing his partners lynch the amount that he did?
2) Do you believe that a werewolf would push a lynch knowing that it draws attention towards them during the day, the only phase in which they have issues?

DeityKabuto wrote: Unvote Vote Regfan
obvscum obv
We lynch Regfan today, results are when he flips. Can't explain, but my gut is telling me that he is more of a threat than Neil.

The fact that you're instantly moving your vote based purely on who attacks you is growing tiresome. In your next post I want your list of four suspects along with reasoning behind why you believe they're scum and how they're linked together.

HavingFitz wrote: It is not scummy for you to suspect me. It is not scummy for people to change their minds about others as the game progresses. What IS scummy is to line up the next day’s lynch, basically to make a deal, even though you have expressed little suspicion towards that person.

I very strongly disagree, if one realizes that they are unable to get the lynch they are pushing for on their main FoS they often have to compromise via agreeing to lynch another main suspect in hope to gain peoples votes the next day.

HavingFitz wrote: And it’s in scum’s best interest to appear townie. Considering the tell is being directed at you, it’s no surprise you consider it null.

Considering the fact that it's a town players job to appear townie and a scum players job to appear townie one may think they have the same agenda, this is completly untrue as mafia have a hard job at geninuely town-telling. If memory serves me correctly though MoI refuses to believe in town-reads thus him finding 'acting townie' as a null-tell is completly understtandable.

HezLucky wrote: Man havingfitz is easily winning the argument with MoI (one is spouting bs, the other is not) but I'd like to know what the rest of the town thinks of this.

By this do you mean that you believe HavingFitz is town, or that you believe he's just arguing better?

Regfan · Post Post #599 (isolation #34) » Sun May 29, 2011 5:46 pm

zMuffinMan wrote: 2) What? Why wouldn't a werewolf push for a lynch on someone they think is mafia to gain 'town cred'? You seem convinced he couldn't be scum because it.

Ugh, you're actually correct, I just seemed to believe werewolves would attempt to stay out of the limelight which Wicked hasn't done.

zMuffinMan wrote: Can one of the people voting neil point to their case on him?

1. It revolves around his decline in content, his avoidance of the spotlight whenever he's not mentions.
2. The lack of stances he takes in regards to reads, he attempts to Omgus or defend himself rather than actually scumhunt.
3. His interactions or lackthereof with Cjdrum reads as if they're partners, especially due to Cjdrum stating "One of Empking/Neil are scum" and never voting Neil upon Empkings flip.
4. PoE, I have quite solid town-reads on Wicked/MoI and I don't see Cjdrum being the last townie.

Regfan · Post Post #602 (isolation #35) » Sun May 29, 2011 6:46 pm

Attempting to solidify or push a case based around your town-reads being correct is meaningless if you don't explain your town-reads in greater detail.

Regfan · Post Post #605 (isolation #36) » Sun May 29, 2011 6:55 pm

havingfitz wrote:
Regfan wrote:4. PoE, I have quite solid town-reads on Wicked/MoI and
I don't see Cjdrum being the last townie
.

Bold is mine. What?

It's meant to read Neil, not Cjdrum should be obvious in the context it's in.

havingfitz wrote:My town reads are mostly POE coupled with the fact everyone can't be scum. Think of it as a top to bottom scumlist with Hez, you and Wicked (not necessarily in that order) at the bottom of my list, ie most town. And I don't make a habit of justifying town reads but it does fit into my assessments in my VCA.

So your town-reads are based on your scum-reads and you're using your PoE town-reads to reassure yourself of your scum reads through your VCA? You're essentially using circular reasoning to explain and maintain your reads.

Regfan · Post Post #626 (isolation #37) » Mon May 30, 2011 11:23 pm

HezLucky wrote: Regfan's aggressive pushing of havingfitz is noted. Havingfitz's townreads are very, very solid. Don't lose the game for everyone, regfan.

Apart from sharing the same suspicions as HavingFitz what makes you believe Sloths slot is town?

HavingFitz wrote: You don't have to accept my VCA thoughts if you don't want. Tell me this...what are your reads on Hez, Wicked, and yourself? If at least two of them are town reads...then you are basically in agreemenet with me...if all three of them are town or leaning town, then WTH are you busting my balls for? Was there anything in my post 610 that you did agree with or that might have been made apparent to you? Even something that might have eluded me?

I have a strong town-read on Wicked, leaning scum on Hez and what's the point of asking me for my read on myself? #610 was meaningless, it really was it's attempting to validify your FoS's by showing how your PoE works.

I'll make it clearer. You're saying, I have town-reads on Wicked, Hez and Regfan. Hmm. I'll put them in the VCA. Muffin, Magna, DK and Neil came out mafia.
See, you're really not showing us your actual reasoning behind your town-reads, and that's what you need to do.

Wickedestjr wrote: A. Maybe I'm misreading this, but you haven't answered my question. I understand how you would find pushing strongly for a lynch to 'scream town'. However, you said my post where I gave my reads 'screamed town'. Why is that?

Perhaps I misphrased it, it's not soley the inclusion of reads that 'screamed town' it was your entire attitude with how you used those reads.

Wickedestjr wrote: B. I am concerned with your reasons for believing that a Werewolf wouldn't strongly push for a lynch. Reason 1 is kind of weak and basically WIFOM, right? Reason 2 doesn't make any sense to me- can you explain it in more detail?

1 isn't wifom at all, there's minimal for a sheep to gain out of an act like that whereas a lot to lose, reason two Muffin brought up earlier and I stated I don't see werewolfs attempting to attract that much attention however I do realize how weak that is.

Wickedestjr wrote: So, just to be clear, you want to know my town reads so we can protect them from getting lynched?

Right now it's much easier to scumhunt via using PoE and explaining your town-reads, therefore understanding what your town-reads are better helps me understand who you suspect.

Wickedestjr wrote: By opportunistic do you mean 'going for the easy target'? ...because he was only the second vote on the Sloth bandwagon.

It was done at a period where multiple other players had stated intention to vote Sloth and when no other lynch was being pushed by multiple players therefore his vote on Sloth increased the chances it would go through massively.

Wickedestjr wrote: @MoI, Regfan & havingfitz- What do you guys think of this point from zMM? Also, notice how, rather than convince me of his PoV, he simply tries to justify it by saying 'a link is a link'. What do you think of that?

To be honest, I need to do a lot more reading into it because the context is vague, first impression is the defence of 'a link is a link' is extremely weak reasoning and doesn't help explain anything.

Regfan · Post Post #650 (isolation #38) » Tue May 31, 2011 9:08 pm

MoI wrote:Is there anyone (outside of Hez himself and Havingfitz) who has any sort of Town read on Hez?

My scum-read on him has decreased in strength but no I don't have a town-read on him at the moment I find his change in attitude from when he was attacking you earlier in the day to be incredibly different to his current attitude now that a lynch has been suggested that isn't him.

zMuffinMan wrote: Do you think neil is a werewolf or mafia? And why?

I believe he's an evil sheep mainly due to the interactions that occured between Cjdrum and himself however ignoring their interactions I can see his play being understandable for a werewolf - that being attempting to stay out of the limelight and slide through the game.

Regfan · Post Post #674 (isolation #39) » Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:32 pm

Wickedestjr wrote: And your reasoning here clearly didn't have anything to do with my attitude towards how I used those reads.

You've pulled that out of my catch up summarization post where I attempted to keep my thoughts about players quite small so questions directed to them wouldn't go unanswered.

Wickedestjr wrote: I disagree. Getting a scum lynched doesn't necessarily make you a good nightkill target. I would like you to check out this game.

Although that may have occured in that game the general occurance is that a player who has led on scum gains increased likelihood of getting night-killed and that's something scum would know and taken into account before bussing.

Wickedestjr wrote: I summarized the situation in the same post I asked you to comment.

Yes but it misses the real context of what was occuring at the time, I went back and took a little at it and believe it's baseless. The fact you voted Twisted has no relation to Hez however I can understand how zMuffin may have misintepereted it.

@zMuffin, do you still believe there's a linkage between Wicked and Hez. Yes or no.

I haven't had a chance to properly evaluate MoI's VCA but I'll do so later tonight.

Regfan · Post Post #681 (isolation #40) » Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:28 am

HavingFitz wrote: My point was that you seem to be discrediting my VCA based the fact it incorporates my pre-VCA reads (which I can totally understand)...but you agree with 2/3rds of my town reads (or 1/2 if we take out the FMPOV confirmed town status). Do you see any scum indicators (ie top suspects) in the votecounts listed? Also, I don't usually give my town reads. I especially don't make a habit of making town cases for them. I focus on finding scum. The town read/view I have towards players is more a case of others being more suspect. And with only eight players remaining...giving my top four scum reads and excluding myself sort of explicitly reveals who my town reads are. The only way I would give reasoning on a town read was if it was a rock solid town tell/indicator.

If the point of the VCA is just to reaffirm your reads to yourself there is literally no point posting it, if you attempt to influence other plays in believing your conclusions it's key and crucial that you explain how you got to your conclusions, ie. Explaining your town-reads in detail even if you dislike doing so normally.

zMuffinMan wrote: So do you think a mafia lynch today is a good thing?

Not what I said at all but if it had to come down to lynching someone I was sure was a scum faction and someone I thought was either town or werewolf I would pick the first one every time.

Hezlucky, the song and dance over lynching MoI and Muffin is pointless if you continue to refrain from posting any reasoning attached to it.

Regfan · Post Post #684 (isolation #41) » Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:41 am

zMuffinMan wrote:Who are your town-or-werewolf reads?

HavingFitz and Deity.

zMuffinMan wrote:Also what do you think of Wicked's reasoning for thinking neil is mafia?

They're mostly a regurgitation of the reasons I stated earlier today.

Regfan · Post Post #708 (isolation #42) » Sat Jun 04, 2011 5:16 pm

Sorry, I've been avoiding this game out of sheer frustration I'll catch up and make a proper post later tonight.

Regfan · Post Post #720 (isolation #43) » Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:21 am

Wickedestjr wrote: 2. I'm starting to think Regfan is mafia.

Care to explain?

HezLucky wrote: In conclusion, MoI is not playing pro-town. Scum make cases on people. Pro-town players CONSIDER cases on people (they are afraid to be wrong). MoI has not considered any cases on people, he just makes them.

This has to be some of the worst logic I have ever seen.
1. You're attempting to say that town just consider cases instead of making them, that means you're stating townies just consider cases proposed by scum.
2. You're attempting to create a case on MoI saying he's scum due to the fact he's creating cases elsewhere.
3. You state townies consider cases while not considering any cases at the same time (You openely state you refuse to vote elsewhere from Muffin/Magna today)

Neil113 wrote: VOTE: DeityKabuto

Just checked in, read through the thread. Update on my V/LA: I'll be driving home tomorrow night, where I can finally catch up once and for all and start posting again. Expect something from me either tomorrow night, Tuesday, or Wednesday at the latest. (I might just sleep all day Tuesday to catch up on sleep, so forgive me if I do.)

You asked for spare time due to your V/LA so you could come back and address the points put forward against you and defend yourself, instead you've thrown your vote on DK with no added reasoning. Being V/LA is one thing, but stating you've had time to read everything means you've had ample time to defend the accustations is another.

Wickedestjr wrote: I assume you're talking about my reasons for thinking neil is scum. Am I right?

Yes, you're correct.

I'm still very comfortable with by Neil vote however I want to read into Hez and HavingFitz tommorow.

Regfan · Post Post #775 (isolation #44) » Thu Jun 09, 2011 3:21 am

I apologise for my inactivity, I have finals in a week and I've been focusing on that while also attempting to avoid the frustration that is this game. To be perfectly honest I'm having real difficulty seeing Hez as scum anymore. His attempt at constructing a VCA in which he dabbed into other possible angles however wrong they are read as extremely town-motivated. I don't understand or agree with his case against MoI as it basically winds down to his playstyle but I'm getting a really strong feeling that he believes it which is all that matters.

The more and more I read the argument and discussion between you both the more it's appearing as near-blind tunneling with neither player wanting to admit that there's a possibility they are incorrect about the others allignment. The fact comes down to this, there's no lynch happening between either of you today therefore as much as you might suspect the other player you need to drop the argument, it's being incredibly anti-town and likely motivating players to stop posting. Though I'm getting a sneaking suspicion that the decrease in activity is mafia standing back content with watch you two duke it out until deadline.

Neil's V/LA has been over for quite some time now and he continues to avoid presenting any real content or information that even slightly ressembles scumhunting, it reads as if he's attempting to lurk his way out of the lynch.

I want everyone in their next post to state why they agree or disagree with a Neil lynch.

Town Reads:

HezLucky, MoI, Wicked.

Null Reads:

DeityKabuto.

Scum Reads:

Neil113, zMuffinMan, HavingFitz.

Confirm Vote: Neil113

Regfan · Post Post #778 (isolation #45) » Thu Jun 09, 2011 3:55 am

zMuffin, mind explaining the sudden shift in vote to MoI when previously you've shown minimal suspicion of him.

zMuffinMan wrote:How can you have a null read, 3 town reads and 3 scum reads. That is so disingenuous. Holy crap I'm liking the idea of a MoI-Regfan team more and more.

I'm having trouble placing DK anywhere to be frank, I've read some of his posts as town-tells and others as incredibly scummy meaning I'm hesitant in placing him in my scum-reads at the moment but if he is indeed town then I've read someone incorrectly.

Regfan · Post Post #812 (isolation #46) » Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:44 am

zMuffinMan wrote:How can you have a null read if you have 3 town reads? At least one of them should be null. Or a better explanation: your reads are contrived.

By PoE Deity would be a scum-read however I don't see him being an evilsheep and am having difficulty finding a potential werewolf partner for him thus the placement of the read in 'null'.

zMuffinMan wrote:FTR, I'd be happy with a Regfan lynch today, too. For someone that's calling out neil for active lurking, you've posted what? Like once in the last week?

This is a complete misrepresentation of what is actually the case, although my activity may have dropped recently due to university commitments I've let me thoughts and reads openely known which is what Neil has avoided doing whenever possible.

Neil wrote: This is your opinion. I can't argue this fairly. There are numerous reasons as to why my declince in content could've happened, and my "avoidance of the spotlight", if that is indeed what I've been doing, could have numerous reasons as well. It's your opinion that it is scummy, because you do not know the reasons why. For now, let's forget about the V/LA and just think Neil must not actually have a real life, and that he really is just such scum in this game with his mind so wrapped up in it, that he's taking a fake break all the while actually getting in our heads thinking he's away.

I don't deny that your lack of activity is related to real life commitments however the fact is that when there's less focus on you your quality of posts has reduced signifcantly.

Neil wrote: The only stance in which you can state I remotely took OMGUS in, is Deity. Other than that, prove that I have not scumhunted? Here's the problem before you try, you can't. Again, that's a matter of opinion. Remember, I was on the lynch for Mafia Member CJ? Yeah, with MY help, we lynched a MAFIA member. That's scum hunting, rather you're little mind likes it or not.

The fact you voted along with the Cjdrum lynch isn't a sign of scumhunting from you, just sheeping an inevitable lynch, I'll await your detailed reads on everyone before doing into this though.

Neil wrote: PoE is not a scum-hunting tactic. It's not stable, it's never produced confident reads, it's likely wrong more times then not, and in cases like this, it could make you play against your win condition and lynch town.

This is a blatant lie, PoE is a very valid scumhunting tactic and widely used throughout this site, sure it may not lead towards strong cases but it leads towards a direction of where to read into.

Neil wrote: Do you consider a V/LA to be "sliding through the game?" Or are you referring to something else with this?

I'm referring to your activity yesterday when you werne't on V/LA at all.

HavingFitz wrote: I strongly disagree that neil is a safer lynch than Magna (or you for that matter). Hammer Magna, then based on his flip go from there.

You've constructed a VCA using town-reads as the entire basis to show that particular players are mafia, this means you should have a reasonable amount of confidence in your town-reads therefore I'm finding it hard to believe that you are so strongly attempting to lynch them in a certain order rather than just guarentee one of their lynches.

Neil wrote: Yeah I'm actually pretty excited. I think this will be another town win under my belt! For the record, you may have to wait a bit for it though. Reading a book, eating lunch, and then I might get back to the final post.

Explain how one mafia lynch results in a win, right now we're in a position where we don't just have to lynch mafia every day but also have to hope for cross-kills at some point.

neil1113 wrote:Wow all that, and I forgot to place my vote. VOTE: MagnaofIllusion

You beg for a chance to be able to state your reads before being lynched, state intention towards doing so multiple times and then place someone else at L-1 knowing that it could lead to the end of the day before your reads are elaborated on, really?

PEDIT; OH YOU'RE FUCKING KIDDING ME.

Regfan · Post Post #815 (isolation #47) » Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:52 am

zMuffinMan wrote:Right, but then if you think there's a possibility you're wrong about him being scum, then which if your town reads would be scum instead of him and why aren't you null (or at best null-leaning-town) on them?

This is the issue, I haven't a clue which of my town-reads I'm incorrect about.

zMuffinMan wrote:
Regfan wrote:This is a complete misrepresentation of what is actually the case, although my activity may have dropped recently due to university commitments I've let me thoughts and reads openely known which is what Neil has avoided doing whenever possible.

I know there's more to the reasons you think neil is scum, but this...
Regfan wrote:Neil's V/LA has been over for quite some time now and he continues to avoid presenting any real content or information that even slightly ressembles scumhunting, it reads as if he's attempting to lurk his way out of the lynch.
is hypocritical.

Not at all, I haven't been strung up or voted then proceeded to attempt to lurk my way out of it, nor have I 'avoided presening real content'.

Regfan · Post Post #817 (isolation #48) » Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:54 am

I have a date over so this will likely be my last post before the flip but Neil needs rope tommorow, as does HavingFitz.

Regfan · Post Post #820 (isolation #49) » Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:02 am

zMuffinMan wrote:Then wouldn't itbe simpler to assume DK is scum?

Regfan wrote:By PoE Deity would be a scum-read however I don't see him being an evilsheep and am having difficulty finding a potential werewolf partner for him thus the placement of the read in 'null'.

We're going in circles here.

MoI, DO NOT POST AGAIN

- In the rules it states the lynched player can no longer type and the last thing town needs right now is some form of hinderance added due to rule-breakage.

Regfan · Post Post #823 (isolation #50) » Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:28 am

Jesus christ, there is literally one other townie left making it 2-2-2. To win, we HAVE to lynch a werewolf today, werewolfes HAVE to kill a sheep tonight and we HAVE to lynch a werewolf again the following day. Then we HAVE to lynch the last evilsheep on 3 way lylo.

This is probably too late as I'm outnumbered massively but Evilsheep, you do realize you have to lynch the werewolves today to have any realistic chance at winning yourselves. Neil is scum without a doubt, not sure which faction yet, so is HavingFitz and zMuffin. Completly unsure over which of Hez and DK are the last townie how gut keeps telling me it's Hez.

Still in the process of moving back home however I'm planning on saving some of these pages to re-read on the train back, should have my vote up by end of today.

Regfan · Post Post #834 (isolation #51) » Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:45 pm

neil1113 wrote:Reg and Havingfitz are werewolves, and they are totally playing each off each other here. I'm Mafia, but I'm not a Warewolf.

This is just you attempting to scream and redirect the lynch elsewhere the second there's an actual possibility you get lynched, if you really were claiming in an attempt to push for a werewolf lynch you would be pushing the case with reasoning to back it up. The lack of doing is shows how blatant a gambit attempt this is by you. To top that of the attempt to paint me as a werewolf frankly is hillarious because I know more than anyone here that werewolfs should have been aiming for Evil Sheep last night and I made it very clear throughout the entirety of yesterday that I believed Wicked was town and in no way a possible sheep suspect due to his actions in the Cjdrum lynch.

I'm actually relatively certain that zMuffin is your werewolf partner as well, reading through the interactions and events at the end of yesterday he tried extremely hard to move the lynch of MoI and towards you. Then attempted to end the day pushing towards me even though he had never stated any previous suspicion, that linked with your recent attack really show that your plan was to come into today and push my ML hoping to shoot tonight for the win.

Vote: Neil

Regfan · Post Post #837 (isolation #52) » Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:26 pm

zMuffinMan wrote:Yo. Hez. Wanna kill Regfan without making a case on him? Just 'coz. You know that would make him mad, and you know he's gonna flip wolf.

This essentially seals and proves that zMuffin is a werewolf with Neil. There's literally no way he would want someone to vote so hastily in a position like this if he was town at all, especially due to the fact he hasn't taken a second to make an evaluation on Neils claim.

Regfan · Post Post #839 (isolation #53) » Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:35 pm

zMuffinMan wrote:I'm sorry, what? I wasn't voting in my last post. Unlike you. You've already decided for sure that neil is a werewolf. Ah, durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

There's literally no difference between voting yourself and asking someone else to vote, asking someone else to vote leads to a potention blitz which is the only reason you would refrain from voting yourself.

zMuffinMan wrote:What evaluation? I thought neil was mafia yesterday, his claim doesn't increase or decrease my suspicion of this.

You jumped onto MoI the second you have an opportunity at his lynch and saving Neil, the fact that you and Neil are scum together is blatantly obvious.

zMuffinMan wrote: But yeah, you'd be pretty mad if you got lynched for no reason, and that's good enough for me.

VOTE: Regfan
Sweeeeeeeeeeeet Regfan anger.

So lets get this right, you're attempting to vote in lylo out of spite and to annoy someone, that contradicts with your entire playstyle throughout the entire game thus far where you've attempted to defend your thoughts with logic. In essence you're unable to fake reasons as to why you believe I'm scum and instead are hoping that Deity makes the stupid mistake of blitzing with you and Neil to give you the win tonight.

Regfan · Post Post #842 (isolation #54) » Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:46 pm

zMuffinMan wrote:You are already voting for neil without considering the possibility that he really is mafia.
Yet no town player would vote so hastily in a position like this, right?

I have considered the possibility several times, it's also what I spent a lot of yesterday considering while maintaining my vote on him the entire time.

zMuffinMan wrote:I don't think you quite have a grasp of what my playstyle really is.
All my decisions are gut-based. I sometimes pretend to make cases against people to appease people who like reading cases, but really, it's all gut.

This is a massive lie, http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=16898 proves otherwise.

zMuffinMan wrote:Pfft. You give me no credit if you think I couldn't fake reasons if I were scum.

You are scum and you're not faking reasons, so yes. There's no credit deserved.

Lets make this more fucking obvious then it already is. The only player constantly pushing against and believing Wicked was scum yesterday was zMuffin. Last night werewolves needed to hit scum therefore this proves that zMuffin is indeed a werewolf and Neil is his partner

Regfan · Post Post #845 (isolation #55) » Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:59 pm

zMuffinMan wrote: Now, Regfan says that I am hoping DK makes the stupid mistake of blitzing you, Regfan. If DK were mafia, he would know neil is a werewolf (or mafia with him). And since you think neil and I are werewolves, you cannot think DK is mafia. Therefore DK is your other town read.

Not at all, you're attempting to paint a massive misrepresentation. I believe if DK is town, he's highly likely to be swingy with his vote therefore you're likely to appeal to him in an attempt to get him to vote with you regardless of if he is a wolf or town as that's something you wouldn't be near certain on. The fact that you're not attempting to dispute the fact that Wicked's death essentially proves you as a werewolf really demonstrates how correct it is.

My reads are as follows:

Werewolves: Neil, ZMuffinMan
Wolf: HavingFitz
Town: Regfan
Unsure of: DK, Hez.

PEdit: The fact you changed reads in that game is irrelevant we had hour long discussions about our reads in that game and how you were incorrect on your assumptions that you were jumping to, all your votes were placed with massive degrees of questioning and uncertainty which is the complete opposite of this game right.

Regfan · Post Post #853 (isolation #56) » Sun Jun 12, 2011 2:32 pm

zMuffinMan wrote:Regfan, you're looking at a single example of a game I played as town where I still made gut-based decisions. There was no logical move from you being a scum read to you being a town read. With the post where you claimed and some other posts around that time, I got a gut read on you as town (even though I clearly acknowledged it's exactly what I thought you would do as scum). I then made a gut-based decision and went with Trouble.

Check out any of my other town games. Take the recently finished O307, for example, where I was lynched D1 because of my gut reads (where I got a gut read on DK town, a gut read that there were 2 scum on the wagon, gut town reads on chkflip, cjdrum, etc).

This is completly untrue, I've been following a few of your games however I'm unable to mention them now due to obvious reasons however even though you may have a 'gut' read initally you attempt to divulge into it as much as possible explaining how you reached those conclusions. You haven't done this at ALL this game with the exception of the push towards Wicked which you continue to toss to the side and avoid responding to.

zMuffinMan wrote:Do explain how could you possibly be blitzed by either Hez or DK if 1 of them knows neil is lying and hf also knows neil is lying. From your perspective, hf and at least one of DK and Hez must want neil lynched, right? That's 3 there. There can be no majority.

You cannot possibly be blitzed if you're right in your reads, Regfan. That was an obvious slip because you're not town.

You're actually correct and I've been holding of doing this until the mod responded to me in a proper fashion. I've sent him multiple messages in the past hour or so dipping into this becuase I was unsure whether or not claiming your legitimate role was modkillable and although he refuses to answer directly he's led me under the impression that it's not exactly against the rules so if I get modkilled for this so help me god.

I'm a sheep, I won't reveal my partner at this stage however we discussed this situation last night and actually believed that outright claiming our role will be against the morals and ethics of the game however given recent circumstances I believe it's highly needed. This is the exact reason I knew that Neil was a werewolf instantly upon his claim and why I placed my vote on him without worrying about a blitz following.

There are multiple things I can point towards in this thread to prove the fact that I am indeed an evil sheep the strongest being the constant push towards Neil and refusal to openely state which scum team I believed he was on because doing so would have lead towards revealment of myself earlier. The second most obvious one being the fact that I knew that the occurances of day two weren't a buss because I attempted to subtly defend Cjdrum by stating that his comment was a town-slip when it wasn't at all. This will all be apparent if you read through my ISO and his.

I actually messaged the mod near-game start asking him what would happen if a scenarion such as this would occur, more specifically if there was just myself and one werewolf in the 3 way lylo would it be considered a draw or him winning due to killing me that night in which the resposne was that it would be a draw if we were to have equal control of the town together.

Pedit: Hez essentially proves what I'm attempting to say, werewolves would know that coming into today if one of them are lynched they're stuck into a position they wouldn't want to be in all therefore they would be aiming towards shooting a sheep last night.

Neil is well and truly a werewolf and needs to be lynched today, his flailing attempt at redirection of focus earlier in the day along with his attitude and actions previously are more than enough to prove this, every vote needs to go to Neil today and his partner which I still believe is zMuffin tommorow

Regfan · Post Post #855 (isolation #57) » Sun Jun 12, 2011 2:36 pm

To further top this of the fact that my scum-team has no night-kill of any sort means that our only chances of winning was via lynching the werewolves during the day phases. This is the sole reason why I was attempting to defend and prevent MoI's lynch from occuring and why I constantly attempted to make my town-reads known as well as finding out other players town-reads.

Regfan · Post Post #861 (isolation #58) » Sun Jun 12, 2011 2:46 pm

zMuffinMan wrote:Wait, so if you're an evil sheep, why did you think I'd need to make up a case on you being scum? You're scum, so what evidence would I need to fake?

Again I'll reitterate, I didn't have any intention of claiming my role throughout today at all. I believed claiming scum in a game of mafia was against the ethics of the game and modkillable which is why I was shocked when Neil wasn't modkilled and pm'ed Umbrage asking him about it in greater depth. I was as previously stated worried that claiming my real role could potentially lead towards a modkill and if it does so help me god I will reign fury throughout this site. Regardless, I was attempting to play the town leadership role and push on Neil both my and my partners best guess for werewolf.

My mafia read on HavingFitz essentially revolved around his direct tunneling towards MoI yesterday without any real content or consideration of lynching elsewhere followed up by his VCA which he attempted to use to explain his scum and town-reads which did nothing of the sort. However I read through some of his previous games recently to see if he was generally this aggresive as scum and found it to be a null-tell for him.

I haven't read into the occurances that a no lynch would lead to deeply enough however it was something I was statistically attempting to work out earlier, I'll alert you on my results, for now my vote is more than comfortable on Neil.

Regfan · Post Post #866 (isolation #59) » Sun Jun 12, 2011 3:00 pm

zMuffinMan wrote:I'm not playing to your win condition, and I don't care whether no lynch benefits you. It benefits town. Stop squirming.

Yes, so you openly admit to not sharing the same win condition as myself however are continue to insist that I play against mine. End of the story is town loses via lynching me and I'm not exactly sure of what a no lynch leads to. Consider it another way, what hesitance would I have in no lynching if I were a werewolf who controls the night game at the moment - You'll find the answer is none and you'll likely find Neil jumping on the proposal.

First impression is that via lynching today my partners has the possibility although slim of making it to a three way lylo and winning there whereas no lynching results in my death tonight and the best case scenario being a draw.

Regfan · Post Post #868 (isolation #60) » Sun Jun 12, 2011 3:07 pm

There's essentially two possibilities that can occur from no lynching.

The first being that werwolves would shoot at a sheep likely myself due to the fact I'm already in-thread claimed. This would lead tommorow to be 2-2-1 where town and my partner would make up the majority of the remaining players in the game, this would lead to Neil being instant lynched in which it would turn into the night phase with it being 2-1-1. If the final werewolf were to shoot my partner the odds of myself winning would be zilch and if they were to shoot a town player it would become 1-1-1 which isn't exactly a wanted position. It would come down to a popularity content of the town player choosing the faction they most wanted to win.

The second being that the werewolves were to shoot a town player tonight tommorow we would be left at 2-2-1 where town no longer have any hope of winning thus no reason to continue playing yet still holding the entire power of which scum faction wins the game in their hands. I don't believe anyone wants this to have a possibility of turning into any form of popularity content at all.

Essentially no lynch is good for no one but werewolves.

Regfan · Post Post #874 (isolation #61) » Sun Jun 12, 2011 3:45 pm

neil1113 wrote:Regfan, you can only counter claim now. You've been caught. Pretty simple. When you get lynched and flip wolf, everyone will know. I find it funny though, you do the only thing scum would do in your situation. "No, YOUR the werewolf!" Funny that before I called you out, you NEVER mentioned me being werewolf with such certainty as that post. Ironic isn't it?

I've been relatively sure you were a werewolf throughout majority of this game and thus have been pushing at you over and over again however the wagon continues to be disabled with every attempt.

neil1113 wrote: People, you do realize that Reg and Fitz are werewolves? Lynch me today Deity if you wish, but you'll lose the game. Remember, why would I purposely claim Mafia just to get counter claimed, KNOWING that there's already you and Reg looking to push my lynch today? Isn't it highly likely I wouldn't be believed anyways? I wouldn't take that chance. Simple.

You had no choice at all there was already two votes on you and another person stating intention to place a third therefore you did the only thing you felt comfortable doing gambiting and attempting to claim wolf and then proceed to play the 'Ate" you can't lynch me or else you lose! card over and over again.

Regfan · Post Post #875 (isolation #62) » Sun Jun 12, 2011 3:46 pm

For the record, I'm going to be completing my move back home in the next 24 hours thus my activity will be sparse.

Regfan · Post Post #876 (isolation #63) » Sun Jun 12, 2011 3:55 pm

Ugh. Do not like. I've just realized what your plan actually revolves around. You forcing the lynch between yourself and me today leads to two possible situations.

Situation one results in myself getting lynched, you shooting tonight and winning the game instantly that way. Situation two results in yourself getting lynched, your partner no-killing tonight and forcing tommorow into a 2-2-1 position where town become completly forced to lynch me due to aiming towards lynching an evil sheep rather than a werewolf resulting in myself being lynched due to my open claim. This turns the night into a 2-1-1 situation in which your partner will either choose to take it to a 1-1-1 popularity contest finish or a 2-1 situation where my team has zilch chance of winning.

In other words, I'm honestly playing with the best case scenario being a draw or unlikely popularity contest win.

Regfan · Post Post #879 (isolation #64) » Sun Jun 12, 2011 4:02 pm

neil1113 wrote:"Over and over again" But I only did it once?

Lets see:

neil1113 wrote:GG Werewolf, but you're done. I dare you to counter claim Mafia, just to make this situation even MORE ironic.

neil1113 wrote:Lynch me today Deity if you wish, but you'll lose the game.

neil1113 wrote:Regfan, if you can convince the town to lynch me, instead of you, I'll tip my hat to you. Good game werewolf. I'll even add you to my sig, as a sign of respect. But all in all, when night comes, all will be revealed, and you'll be lynched tomorrow. So fight as hard as you want, you can't avoid the initial death of you and your partner you werewolves, you can only delay it.

neil1113 wrote:By the way, all the points you've broughten against me doesn't prove I'm a werewolf. Just scum. And I've already claimed what side I'm on. And you're NOT my partner. Which makes you Werewolf. Simple. Goodbye.

Regfan · Post Post #883 (isolation #65) » Sun Jun 12, 2011 4:25 pm

zMuffinMan wrote:What are the rules on draws in these games, btw? Can they be agreed on?

No idea, I only asked about what would happen if there was just myself and a werewolf left alive.

Regfan · Post Post #886 (isolation #66) » Sun Jun 12, 2011 4:44 pm

Umbrage wrote:B) The scum faction comprises at least half the living players with at least one town member left alive.

This is literally impossible to occur. If it's 2 v 2, oh no town players alive neither scum faction wins. If it's 1 v 1 oh no town players alive neither scum faction wins. I'm wondering why I joined this game to begin with because this is honest to god pathetic.

Regfan · Post Post #910 (isolation #67) » Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:30 am

zMuffinMan wrote:What was the issue with claiming mafia, anyway? It was still playing to our win-con (specifically, trying to get a werewolf lynched today). There was no other real way to defend against neil's lynch than for him to claim.

Except it's not optimal and is infact gamethrowing. As I attempted to explain to Umbrage there's 4 scum players overall alive there each scum team is generally needing to win on their own. This can only occur if they team up with another facton as 4 votes are needed for a lynch, since scum can't win via claiming what should occur is that all six players should be pretending they're town. Essentially Neil claiming scum and voting me literally forces me to claim scum as well because it would be impossible to be lynched if I were town as there wouldn't be enough votes for it to occur. That's saying him claiming mafia makes it optimal for me to claim and out Neils partner forcing all scum outted in the thread in which no scum team can win alone. This means Neil claiming in the thread is him openely stating, I'm not playing for my solo win objective, hi!

I was and still am furious how it wasn't modkilled because to me that ruins the fundementals of mafia, I will however be going to people with higher power over the rules of games such as this attempting to make it modkillable in future because I don't want anyone to be put in the same position that I was. Although I am currently frustrated Umbrages actions on the last day phase it doesn't change the fact that he ran this game very smoothly with vote-counts and replacements all being on time, so for that thanks Umbrage.

--------------------------

With the exception to the last day of this game I found this game relatively enjoyable and I have to admit the Hez and MoI interaction made me burst out laughing multiple times because in my eyes they were both extremely obvious town, as was DK to be perfectly honest. I nailed majority of the other scum faction on N1 and the rest of it on N2/N3 however I was unsure of what strength to push for their lynches, I knew doing so would lead towards me having to explain how I'm not dead later in the game so I sort of lurked more than usual. This is where I'm really hoping experience can help me in the future.

I believe the town really put themselves in this sticky position starting with the constant attacks on Empking when what he was doing was playerstyle alligned rather than allegiance alligned. I however would love to play with majority of this playerlist again. If anyone wants me to attempt to critize their play or offer any advice I would be willing to do so and I willinglly would accept any advice people have for me because my scum-game needs to improve significantly.

For those interested though here's our Werewolf QT

Regfan · Post Post #911 (isolation #68) » Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:42 am

Oh, I forgot to ask, is there a dead QT by any chance?

Regfan · Post Post #914 (isolation #69) » Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:48 am

Umbrage wrote:I still don't see how claiming mafia breaks the game. If anything, the game was broken because both scum teams correctly guessed the setup. Which meant that no townie was going to be lynched. Still, the WIFOM of who was wolf and who was mafia should've been quite entertaining, pity it was cut short.

It looks like we're going to continue disagreeing however I'll keep you updated on how discussing it with the List mods goes. I attempted to explain how their scum-claim means they have 0% chance to win the game alone in this post which I left as a clear message for HavingFitz if I got lynched meaning they were fighting for a draw after the scum claim occured, this means that they GAVE up on their win objective of winning alone.

Regfan · Post Post #918 (isolation #70) » Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:07 am

zMuffinMan wrote:Actually, the scum claim didn't mean we had no chance of winning alone.

Best case scenario for the remaining wolf was to take it to 1-1-1 and hope to win via popularity contest. But you're overreacting because claiming scum was the smartest play. There was no way in hell VI-DK was going to vote anyone but neil, and there was no way neil could properly defend himself because he was so obviously scum, if not by his scummy actions, then simply by PoE. Screwing your faction over means little to me when everyone loses if neil is lynched, so claiming scum and forcing the issue was the smartest play for us, and was playing to our win-con (or more specifically, to our not-lose-con).

If the absolute best case scenario for in doing something is to take it down to a 1-1-1 popularity contest then it's not optimal play. Neil still had the ability to attempt to convince them via using logic, persuasion and multiple other techniques which he didn't even attempt to do once, he instantly open claimed instead so sure I may have got screwed from it but I believing it should be against the rules to act in a manner like that.

Regfan · Post Post #921 (isolation #71) » Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:25 am

zMuffinMan wrote:Playing not to lose is better than losing. No matter how much you try to persuade DK, he was never going to change his mind. You and hf were obviously always going to vote neil. That leaves convincing Hez, who already voted neil at the start of the day, and pretty clearly had it in mind that neil was a werewolf. Better to just claim honestly and try to redirect the kill to the real werewolves.

Would you not agree that the main objective of a scum-team is for their scum team to win? A solo team win should be the ultimate aim with a draw being a fallback option.

Now to win you would have needed to get me lynched without having claimed scum, did Neil even attempt to do that once this entire game? No. Was Neil playing to forfill his ultimate win objective, no.