Open 322: C9++ [Game Over - Scum Win]

[Honest Abel]

Just saying hello. Must go to bed. Hello.

[Honest Abel]

This is my first non-newbie game (even when I play on other sites, I play the newbie setups) so I thought the quality of posts would be a little higher. Maybe you're all just picking up on things that I'm not seeing, but when everyone posts such throwaway comments and short posts, it makes it hard to remember who's talking to whom, who's voting for whom, and whatever else kind of actions are going on in the thread. I could be wrong, but it seems to me like it would be more beneficial if we put a little more thought into each post. Please inform me if there's a reason short posts work better for town.

That said, it seems like I will have to go back and read what's transpired again and take notes, because I currently can't remember.

I'd also like to point out that I am at work right now, and the nature of my job means that I could suddenly get very busy and not be able to post. So if I disappear, that'd be why. I will often be more inclined to participate in this game between the hours of 8 p.m. and midnight ET. Just a heads up.

[Honest Abel]

Okay, I have a better understanding now. The only noteworthy activity I've seen so far comes from projectmatt, Donjosh, Kcdaspot, and zMuffinMan, although DCJ has been participating just as much but hasn't said anything noteworthy yet. Ideally, more people should be posting. I'd like to see more from don_johnson, SGRaaize and bv310 in particular.

I'm confused about posts #33 through #41 — can someone explain what happened with the reroll and why at first people thought Big Sleep (now me) was scum and then decided there was nothing to prove it? Can someone also please explain when the pregame took place and exactly when it ended? I feel particularly lacking in these two areas and want to make sure I'm on the same page.

[Honest Abel]

"Noteworthy" meaning I've been able to make some kind of read based on what they've been saying. My reads on Kcdaspot and Nobody Special may depend on my understanding of #33 through #41. So please help.

[Honest Abel]

Side note: Hey NS, I won your Newbie game 1092. That was a fun one, for me anyway.

[Honest Abel]

Has bv310 been prodded?

[Honest Abel]

So pregrame refers to the previous thread? But if you guys knew that a reroll happened, why jump on Big Sleep for switching out? Or did you not know there was a reroll at that point? Because I actually read the previous aborted thread before I even joined this game (because I was interested in C9++) and it says right at the end that a reroll is happening.

[Honest Abel]

Okay, thank you.

DonJosh? Same for you? You forgot, or just didn't know?

[Honest Abel]

So does that mean you guys have the same roles you had as the last roll? Or you hadn't yet gotten PMs? I'm very confused.

You must have gotten role PMs if the mafia got to choose to kill Jason, right?

[Honest Abel]

Actually, it does have a bit of significance if someone did something significant in the other game thread and we still have the same roles. The difference is that it means whether or not we can analyze the previous material to count toward our reads of people, if there is indeed anything noteworthy in the aborted thread.

I'm hearing a lot about how a reroll happened, and I'm inclined to believe it, but based on the way some are acting, it seems at least a few people have the same roles.

[Honest Abel]

I'm not trying to get anyone to tell their roles. I'm pressing the issue to see if previous discussion is valid to look at or not. And also because NS and DonJosh made moves based on it, which may affect, however slightly, my opinion of them.

So it appears to me that the two scummiest (and indeed, only two scummy) of Day 1 are projectmatt and DonJosh (and not just because I can read the vote count). projectmatt being the far scummier of the two. This is why:

#19: Comment on Kcdaspot sheeping NS's vote on him is awkward. Why even bother commenting on obvious random voting?
#52: Seems to be aching to defend himself; "DonJosh is probably scum"? And if he turns out to be scum, are we not supposed to immediately realize that you're scum, too? This comment not only makes me suspicious of projectmatt, but DonJosh, too. The level of certainty after having heard barely anything from DonJosh is alerting.
#60: "No" posted only for the sake of being able to say he denied it. Not a good excuse, but careful not to be too defensive.
#77: "Oh wow, I just convinced myself that DonJosh is scum" attitude is awkward; "fuck you" contradicts earlier carefulness about not being overly defensive.
#95: Only confident in DonJosh read (see note on #52); confirmed confidence is again a big warning sign of dumb mafia play.

The only thing I have on DonJosh other than projectmatt's sloppy implication is #55, where he makes the obvious comment on the Jason vote to point out how dumb it is and makes a reactive vote on projectmatt. Both actions seemed scummy to me.

I also have some town reads, but don't see the value in sharing.

I'm not interested in placing either projectmatt or DonJosh at L-1 until after we hear more from don_johnson, SGRaaize, and bv310.

[Honest Abel]

@johnson: I would simply appreciate it if you at least pretended to act like a townie and started discussing/asserting things and asking questions. if you are town, being as passive as lurking scum doesn't really help.

You too, bv, try to catch up.

[Honest Abel]

I only heard about this setup two days ago, and it seemed interesting to me. So I joined when I stumbled upon the replacement request.

It keeps evading me that the game only started yesterday (?), so sorry for asking for a prod and calling out lurkers. However, I think it's unwise to lynch before everyone has gotten a chance to contribute to the thread in some way. We do have four weeks per Day. I just read another C9++ game that was over in 9 pages, which is ridiculous, so maybe that's just how you guys play.

What's convenient about agreeing with wagons? Both players have exhibited scummy behavior, and are actually the only people I think have done so thus far in the thread. projectmatt much moreso than DonJosh, but still. I could have shown up late as I did and disagreed with both wagons, sure, but the events of the thread would lead anyone to vote on one wagon or the other. I would have joined the projectmatt wagon if not for the fact that there are some non-contributors hanging out.

[Honest Abel]

I would also like to see a little more pressure on projectmatt and DonJosh, questioning them rather than voting on them for their past behavior. As it is, the wagons don't seem to be adding pressure on their own. I, however, have run out of time for today and must be finishing up my work to attend a poetry reading tonight. Until tomorrow, chaps.

[Honest Abel]

I wasn't aware projectmatt had so many votes on him for his attitude. It really has little to do with why I find him scummy. It's more the fact that he's "confident" that DonJosh is "probably" scum, and the fact that he seems to be looking more for ways to make other people look stupid than actually scumhunting. All of his noteworthy posts have been merely reactive.

Based on that "wall," it seems like projectmatt finds DonJosh scummy for two reasons:

1. DonJosh forgot that there was a reroll (something NS also admitted)
   
2. DonJosh seemed overly defensive (something that projectmatt himself is more guilty of)

Based on what projectmatt has said and nothing else, I find a disparity between his weak suspicions of DonJosh and his confidence that DonJosh is scum. If we were to lynch DonJosh and he flips scum, projectmatt should definitely be the next move. My only concern is that DonJosh doesn't seem scummy enough to me to lynch at the moment.

projectmatt, can you explain to me how you can be so confident that DonJosh is scum when your spoken reasons don't really allow much confidence?

[Honest Abel]

No. It's not the fact he "forget" there was a re-roll. It's because the person he is accusing was not scummy in the pre-game and his post is a dramatization.

Actually, I'm going to ask a question. Did any of you specifically notice anything about Big Sleep in the pre-game?

His reaction was panic. Mine is defense. There is a large difference. I'm the "most" confident in my scum read on DonJosh because I don't have many other good reads, and what he is done is little, but is insanely scummy.

Decent explanations, thank you.

I'm assuming you're talking about DonJosh when you say "His reaction was panic"? Or Big Sleep? I can see that applying to DonJosh's reaction to the two-vote wagon. But since then, he hasn't been defending himself or panicking at all, it seems. Which is why I said earlier that it would be better to put more pressure on you guys.

Now that your motives are a little clearer, I'm prepared to ascribe a temporary town read to you.

[Honest Abel]

These are fair enough explanations, although it does make it seem like you're not paying enough attention.

I joined in late assuming that the game had been going for a while, but it had only just started.

Wait, seriously? You're saying that it's not convenient and safe to head into a thread and say "I agree with what everyone else said" instead of coming up with an original thought or examining one of the other nine players in the game? And the whole "anyone else would do this" bit is both false and a cop-out.

I believe I brought up different reasons why I thought projectmatt and DonJosh were acting scummy. Please read my initial post again in the context of what had already been said and you will see this. I didn't agree with everyone else. I acknowledged that the vote count aligned with my reads. projectmatt answered my questions about the particular reasons I found him scummy, and both answers seem relatively reasonable.

Overall Abel's posts really strike me as trying too hard to be town. He tried to set himself up as the ur-townie when he came into the thread being all "you guys need to post bettar" and then posted a ton of irrelevant set-up stuff.

People usually think I'm scummy early on for posting a lot and trying to get things serious quickly. However, I am here because I like playing a thoughtful game. The early spammy posts from everyone who was posting were not helpful. I pointed this out and tried to take the thread in a more serious direction. I'm sorry you don't think my questions about posts #33-#41 were helpful, but I admitted that it was my personal confusion that led me to ask about them, and I did think it could help me get a better read on NS, DonJosh and Kcd knowing what they were referring to.

Now that your motives are a little clearer, I'm prepared to ascribe a temporary town read to you.

This is so qualified as to be completely meaningless. Is there any doubt that you would or could go back on being "prepared to ascribe a temporary town read" if necessary? Calling the read "temporary" is just adding in an escape clause for if the wind starts blowing in a different direction.

It is meaningless. Proclaiming town reads always are. Which is why there was nothing to my statement.

The point of me calling the read "temporary" is that I'm prepared to move on to pressuring/questioning someone else in the interest of putting the focus on more than a single person in Day 1. Once what I think is a fair amount of discussion/contribution has occurred, I'll take into account what has happened in the Day and decide to vote. Most of the focus has been on projectmatt so far; I'm not unused to the focus being on

me

in Day 1 — it usually is because I post a lot and I try to get the most people interacting in the thread, which draws a lot of attention.

Maybe it sounds like I'm trying to tell people what to do too much and that I think I'm the shit, but I'd like to point out that I am quite humble about my scumhunting abilities and that I'm not often very accurate in my suspicions.

[Honest Abel]

So, DCJ, let's talk about your motives for casting a vote. Please tell me which of these motives best describes your voting method (choosing more than one is okay):

1. You vote because you think someone is scum and should be lynched.
   
2. You vote because you find someone scummier than other people and you have to be voting at all times.
   
3. You vote to add pressure to someone you are uncertain about to see how they will react.
   
4. You are a responsible townie, so you don't want to appear scummy by joining bandwagons too late.

I'll wait for your response before I continue.

[Honest Abel]

I just want to discuss DCJ's vote on me because I haven't been able to attribute his/her past behavior as town or scum. I therefore think that it is logical for me to question him/her. This is probably going to lead somewhere, but I didn't want to have to type up a whole post on "I can't explain my vote" without making him/her first actually

try

to explain his/her vote.

[Honest Abel]

I tend to use logic and proof that I can put into words, because there are no thoughts that exist outside of words, but maybe that's because I don't have a gut.

[Honest Abel]

Touchy.

[Honest Abel]

projectmatt: If you had to lynch someone RIGHT NOW, who would it be?

This is the only post from NS that seems like literal scumhunting and it's bad. No tells or new knowedlege can be gained from it. My scum reads were already very outlined.

He was testing you to see if you'd respond by calling the question stupid or by answering it diligently. That's why he's town and you're scum.

[Honest Abel]

Kcdaspot, I like your style. You act more like a commentator than a player. It's very distancing, though.

So, DCJ, we've established that you don't have a reason for your vote, that you have a gut feeling, and that you are not me.

Let's start with post #50 in which you vote for the player recently killed by the mafia. It seems like a lot of people are forgetting or neglecting things — perhaps purposefully in order to appear town — but this takes the cake. Voting for the player the mafia killed and acting oblivious about it is a good way to make yourself look town off the bat, but it's not very well concealed. Someone brings it up — DonJosh actually — and you try to make him look stupid for suggesting it was weird (#69). Let's fast-forward to a half hour ago when you also tried to make me look stupid for asking you a question about your self-procliamed inexplicable vote (#170, #174). Maybe this is your personal touch on defending yourself, yes?

The next thing you do is vote on DonJosh (#99), making sure everyone knows you are aware that you could be considered sheeping and jumping on a bandwagon, for preemptive defense. Then you had a severe reaction to my confusion about the discussion in posts #33–#41, threatening to call me out for role fishing. I figured asking about something related to the setup would be an easy target, but you leapt at the opportunity to make someone look stupid again.

It really does not appear to me as though you are looking for the truth in this game.

[Honest Abel]

And I suppose being in the same boat as me makes you look a lot less scummy, right?

Will read the rest of your posts when I get a chance.

[Honest Abel]

Read rest of your post, DCJ, you have good points. Not trying to misrepresent, just trying to get you to talk.

lol busy at work

[Honest Abel]

I had a pretty null read on DCJ from the beginning until I just looked over his posts before — I guess my criticisms were addressed. I wouldn't classify it as scumhunting, though. Just hey with a bit of snark.

[Honest Abel]

matt, I don't actually know why NS asked, true. But the distinction here is that you're still trying to interpret what NS was doing, while I'm just trying to say what I got out of it. Which is that you were more concerned with making him look stupid than just giving him an answer and/or explaining more.

[Honest Abel]

Lot of guys here who effortlessly look town without actually doing much to lead the town. Very jealous.

[Honest Abel]

Talking about NS, Kcd.

[Honest Abel]

I wish somebody would love me.

[Honest Abel]

My vote was mainly a joke. Calm down.

lol, 8 pages later.

[Honest Abel]

So, I'm going out tonight. It's also very hot and costs money to run the air conditioner all day, so I usually go enjoy free air conditioning elsewhere. Might not be around too much, but I'll try to keep up.

[Honest Abel]

Vote: Darkcoffeejazz

Want to talk more about #183 with anyone, since DCJ's answers immediately following, upon reading again, don't really do anything to change my mind that some things looked scummy. Is there really nothing at all to the jason vote?

I know I'm getting caught up a lot in whether people seem to be doing what's helpful for town or trying to make others look stupid. I'm a relatively new player and was looking up scumtells on the wiki, and read about the "deliberately weak argument" trap. It seems like the underlying concept doesn't need to apply to traps, but can be considered in the course of any discussion: "

cum and town players have different motivations when arguing. A town player is going to be actively trying to find scum and determine who is town, while a scum player is looking to score points, or win arguments." This is the first game in which I'm thinking about this — let me know if this is a good thing to consider or not.

[Honest Abel]

You realize this is my second game on this site, right?

[Honest Abel]

Man, you guys post a lot.

It is meaningless. Proclaiming town reads always are. Which is why there was nothing to my statement.

If it was meaningless, why say it?

I guess to make it clear I'm not tunneling in on projectmatt because I'm certain he's scum. I'm obviously not certain, and I'm willing to look at other people. That's all I was trying to say.

The point of me calling the read "temporary" is that I'm prepared to move on to pressuring/questioning someone else in the interest of putting the focus on more than a single person in Day 1. Once what I think is a fair amount of discussion/contribution has occurred, I'll take into account what has happened in the Day and decide to vote. Most of the focus has been on projectmatt so far; I'm not unused to the focus being on me in Day 1 — it usually is because I post a lot and I try to get the most people interacting in the thread, which draws a lot of attention.

First off, the first few sentences set off my backtracking alarm. There's a huge difference between "I don't really have a read on you, but I'll move on to someone else" and a self-described "town erad".

I'm not quite sure I follow you here. I didn't say I had a town read on matt, I said I'm willing to ascribe a temporary town read, meaning I'm willing to ignore him for the moment. I guess saying "town read" at all was dumb, sorry.

Also, the last sentence is basically "People are just attacking me because I'm so pro-town and active", which is ridiculous.

I didn't say people were attacking me, I said I'm used to being the focus for telling people they suck at posting and need to post more. I always do it and there's generally some backlash, so I can see where you're coming from by experience even though I don't quite understand the criticism.

Maybe it sounds like I'm trying to tell people what to do too much and that I think I'm the shit, but I'd like to point out that I am quite humble about my scumhunting abilities and that I'm not often very accurate in my suspicions.

This isn't about your personal character or style, this is about whether you're scum or not, so this paragraph is pretty much useless other than the unintentional comedy of proclaiming yourself humble.

I'm only commenting on it because you did. It seemed apparent that there was some significance to it because you mentioned it in the first place, so I thought I'd explain a little more for your benefit.

Also, as for your most recent posts -- don't use wiki tells. Just don't.

Good advice.

[Honest Abel]

Another terrible post from Honest Abel just from a quick scanning is "You know this is my second game, right?". Hey, this is my third game. It's not an excuse to be play terribly and make no logical sense whatsoever.

I wasn't using it as an excuse to play terrible and make no logical sense. I'm playing beautifully and making lots of logical sense. The comment had more to do with someone calling me scummy for asking for advice/thoughts on a tell.

[Honest Abel]

Yeah i think i look good when i look in a mirror too.

Not as good as me.

[Honest Abel]

Town can't win if there are people not contributing.

Been saying this for a while. Are you acting superior or just sheeping me? Remains to be seen.

[Honest Abel]

Abe... you just lost your right to post.

Good, it wasn't helping me anyway.

unvote DCJ

Vote: bv310

[Honest Abel]

Good now stand in the corner like a good boy and let the grown-ups argue.

When you are needed you will be called on.

Sounds good.

[Honest Abel]

Yeah, I've come to the realization that I probably just don't know how to play this game effectively. I was being sarcastic with my earlier comments. I'm obviously not perfect. However, I thought I was looking into people's posts, finding possibly scummy things they're doing, and talking about them. Not really sure what to do aside from that. I'm prepared to just shut up until called on. Maybe I just need to play more newb games, where my inexperience will be better tolerated.

[Honest Abel]

I'm hardly trying to appeal to emotions. I am practically a Vulcan. Just saying, if I can't ask people what to do strategy-wise in this game and I apparently can't intuitively pick up on what others are doing, I'm feeling kind of useless and that I shouldn't participate or do what I think is scumhunting anymore.

[Honest Abel]

And what emotions have been stirred in you? lol

I've asked for replacement, see you in the newb games.

[Honest Abel]

I'm not crumbling, I just have questions and I want answers. This type of game isn't advertised as the type of game where new players can hone their skills and ask advice, so I'm not blaming anyone but myself. I like playing mafia. I like getting into arguments/discussion.

Another part of it is that I have some friends who I recently made join this site, and I want to be in the same game as them. No hard feelings. See you guys around the site.

[Honest Abel]

I'm still in this game, lol.

Responding to Amor, which is all I've really seen, I was not defending Josh at all. I never "pulled back" on my suspcicion of him, either. Saying that he wasn't panicking is not defending him. He merely had not posted enough for me to analyze his posts, or what posts he had were already analyzed. I said Josh was a good example of why we should be putting more actual pressure on people, because he wasn't posting in response to mere votes. projectmatt was posting a lot more, which is why he was easier to analyze and converse with.

Amor, you are really twisting things into the way you want to see them, or the way you want others to see them. Not digging it. Scummy.

[Honest Abel]

By the way, I am still awaiting replacement here. The only reason I checked this thread was because my other game just went into Night phase. I will continue playing this game over the weekend as long as I remain unreplaced. Hope that's fine with everyone.

[Honest Abel]

Just read the rest of the clusterfuck that this game has become. Let's take a step back and discuss.

NS, is there a particular reason you got so frustrated with DCJ so fast? It seems like you are being overly aggressive on him for being confused about millers. While I agree that saying "I'm not going to read the wiki" is a shitty attitude, too, jumping down his throat about it and overreacting like you did is just too much. It makes me wonder if you are faking frustration to appear town. In the newb game that you modded, Thor said that he was sure I was town in part because I was genuinely frustrated with that one crappy newb from Day 1. So maybe looking frustrated is your goal here? The only problem is that it's directly aimed at someone, and the name-calling is kind of lame.

[Honest Abel]

No, leave me alone.

[Honest Abel]

Stop trolling. Let's play a civilized game.

[Honest Abel]

As I see it, NS has posted a lot of fluff and disinterested posts. But this is the only thing he's done that is scummy. It's not in combination with anything else that's scummy, that I can remember. He seems disengaged with the game, which is something scum or town could be. I was expecting better from him. Any kind of excuse he can muster up about his behavior would be appreciated. Is he stretched too thin between various games on the site? That might not be something he would admit, but it could be true anyway. I don't think lynching a guy for doing one particular thing is the smart move right now. At least not until he defends himself a bit.

[Honest Abel]

I think it means you're trying to get some fashion of response from me that will prove to everyone that you are a wiser creature than me. Nope.

Why would you appreciate having one less person in the conversation who is making the game more active? This is an interesting tactic. I'd love to hear why you think it's a pro-town gesture.

[Honest Abel]

Funny how a player who's supposedly been replaced is adding more to the game than you, eh?

[Honest Abel]

Just noticed something else about NS vs. DCJ. DCJ was trying to start shit with Kcd for calling him defensive. First by calling him "twit" and second by ridiculing his vote without an unvote first. While Kcd remained cool (and maybe that's just because he thoroughly believe DCJ is town), NS appeared and took up arms against DCJ in Kcd's spot. Either NS was attempting to buddy, underestimating Kcd's undying love for DCJ, or he saw that DCJ was trying to derail the thread and wanted to pick it up where he left off. Implying they are buddies. Long shot, but it crosses my mind. I'm trying to justify the frustration that NS displayed as something purposeful, at least because it boggles me how people can get so wound up over a game.

[Honest Abel]

You can flat-out deny you're doing this all you want, but the proof is in your posts. I'm not twisting anything.

Yes, you really are. You are tunneling me and finding a way to make every action I take look scummy.

Interesting that you couldn't be bothered to do anything but emoposting when we were close to a lynch, but you can pop in to defend yourself.

I was accused of appealing to emotions, but I wasn't trying to and I had no reason to. Who was close to a lynch of whom when I appealed to emotions? I had two weak votes on me and the topic of conversation had already moved on from me by the time I decided this wasn't a good game to ask questions in. There was no pressure on me. Compare this to every other game I've played/am playing on this site where I get to L-1 on Day 1 and still am not affected by the pressure. I decided to request replacement because of the responses to my questions, not because I was under the enormous pressure of two votes, one of which was from RVS and the other of which is the result of tunneling.

There's a big gap between someone who's one of your top two scumreads and someone who "hasn't posted enough to analyze".

Wow, you simply cannot read. I never said he was one of my "top-two scumreads." I said that DonJosh and projectmatt were the

only

two people who had made what I thought were scummy posts. Just estimating, I would say DonJosh made like three posts and two of them looked scummy. And say projectmatt made like 30 posts and 20 of them looked scummy. Of course the focus is going to be on projectmatt in that situation, and I think it was for quite a while. You have to scumhunt the people who are around. If you look at Kcd's "pressure voting" on bv, you'll see that people who aren't here are just not going to be here. That's why my focus was on projectmatt to start with, and not DonJosh. Not once did I defend DonJosh, though. Can't you see that you are making stuff up?

You're backtracking even in this post. And if someone says "I'm voting X because Y" and you say "X hasn't done Y at all" that's at the very least a soft defense. This is a lot scummier than outright defending someone is, because it tries to move votes off your partner while adding an air of plausible deniability.

Who is my partner in this situation? When have I said someone hasn't done Y? I was the only person reluctant to say "X is town" in the first Day, because I consider it useless.

[Honest Abel]

Okay, looking back, I did say "two scummiest," but immediately followed it with "and indeed, only two scummy." I then proceeded to address what scummy posts I saw from both players. I addressed a bunch of projectmatt posts because he was being talkative, and two DonJosh posts, because I think that's pretty much all he had made at that point. Please show me where I defended DonJosh.

[Honest Abel]

P.S. Amor, it might actually help to go back and quote, link, or at least cite what you're referring to me doing when you accuse me of doing stuff, in least part because putting what I actually said right above how you interpret it might make it clearer to you just how fucking crazy you are.

[Honest Abel]

Excuse me for being on the living players list.

Players Alive

Darkcoffeejazz
projectmatt
Amor
don_johnson
Kcdaspot

Big Sleep

H

o

n

e

s

t

A

b

e

l

SGRaaize
bv310
Nobody Special

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch

Day 2 Deadline is Thursday August 25th, 1:30PM EST.

I'm not the one making the game about me, Amor is. I'm attempting to make the game about NS right now.

[Honest Abel]

@Mod: Cancel my replacement request, GMan. I'm staying in.

If the only discussion I can get out of you schmoes is about whether or not I'm in the game, then bollocks, I'll stay in. Move on to something substantial, please. SGR, you appear from the depths of oblivion and that's all you have to say? Really? Commentary on NS/DCJ dispute? Reaction to the votes on Amor, Amor's tunneling of me, or my defense against Amor? Comments on anything, really?

[Honest Abel]

posting and shit like that

Yeah, what is this garbage called posting? Sounds like something that only scummy people do.

I have no choice but to view his 'replacement' request as completely and 100% false.

Right, and if I had been replaced, I would have kept playing anyway, yeah? Let's be realistic. [quote="Darkcoffeejazz]He used it to gain sympathy and prevent his own lynch, as well as repeatedly insulting me by calling me a troll when I was only stating the simple fact that he had replaced out.[/quote]I gained sympathy? Please cite your sources. Once again, I wasn't close to a lynch when I asked to be replaced, so you'll have to give some better evidence that supports your view of my motivations. And you really are little else but a troll. You've been disputing in an unproductive way with NS and me, and you tried to start up with Kcd as well. Now I can see why, going off your wiki, you always get lynched Day 1 or killed Night 1. You're insufferable.

[Honest Abel]

I have been nothing but fair.

I absolutely agree.

So, what does your suspect list look like?

[Honest Abel]

You don't even have any quick reads of anyone to be of use later in the game? If the day ends before you get back, that's not going to be a useful day from you.

[Honest Abel]

Replaced by whom? lol, I love this guy.

[Honest Abel]

What kind of fluff, holier-than-thou nonsense post is that?

Question for Kcd: why is DCJ town? I know you've said "look at his Day 1," but could you at least provide me a context in which to look at his posts? I don't quite agree with the town assessment for a couple reasons. I want to be able to see what you see so I can decide for myself.

[Honest Abel]

Furthermore your slot is scummy as fuck.

My

slot

, not just me? So he's still hung up on the Big Sleep thing? Somebody else ask him about that, please, since he's not talking to me.

[Honest Abel]

SGRaaize

Since you say you are going to be commenting on everything soon (and I really believe it this time... nah), let's have a look at all your posts.

The first thing you did was vote for projectmatt. It was RVS, but given that you didn't specify a reason and it was followed shortly after by a "serious" vote on matt from Muffin, I have to ask if there was actually anything to the vote or not. Was there?

You follow this up by disappearing for almost all of Day 1, coming back twice only to avoid a prod.

Next you say you're going to post a big wall on your thoughts, but it's apparently a joke and you give a lot of town reads and scum read of DCJ and DonJosh. DCJ because he's posting fluff, which you say could apply to you, and DonJosh simply because you have "no doubts about it." For the same reason I was wary of projectmatt, this sticks out to me for sounding

too

certain. Add to that the "Die, scum" later on.

When Kcda makes the mistake saying there were definitely three scum and NS points it out, you say "Nice catch," but then seem to change your mind about it once DonJosh starts both questioning it and Kcd's attack on NS afterward, saying that it's "just a Town mistake." Why the change in heart? Note: you do also say you're still fine with lynching Kcd, which is weird. Looks like you wanted to show some disagreement with DonJosh to keep distance, while leaving the opportunity open just in case DonJosh were able to get a bandwagon going on Kcd.

The "Good job on lynching scum" comment seems off to me.

Yeah, I'm going to sit on this seat for a spell.

VOTE: SGRaaize

[Honest Abel]

@Mod: Are you looking to replace bv310? He hasn't posted in nine days, and only posted once.

[Honest Abel]

I know i said this somewhere but:

scum don't point out their own scumminess. That asks for attention.

Okay, you're right, I do remember you saying this earlier. Seems to go against my idea of DCJ as being a swollen ego to point out his own flaws, so I'll look back and find the post in question.

...Weeks later...

Okay, found. He wasn't pointing out his own scumminess. He was pointing out that he had no reason to be read as town. And as you put it, townies don't question town reads, do they?

The other weird thing is that you told DCJ that you know he's town after he only posted two times, and there wasn't much substantial going on there. You've been defending him the whole game to anyone who sniffs in his direction, immediately quashing any DCJ scumhunting, even begging for an NS bandwagon after their little spat. Kind of overboard. I could bet that you know something we don't. But I can't see a cop flaunting a town investigation at every possible juncture like that.

reading over... i'm kind of sad you decided to stay..

Why's that?

[Honest Abel]

Also, have you considered that his questioning of your town read on him and the two times he's tried to alienate you with somewhat derisive posts are due to the fact that you're basically molesting him with affection?

[Honest Abel]

You know I'm going to have to question that, right?

Let's start with what moonbeams means and why it's an indication that we can't talk about your weirdness.

[Honest Abel]

I might have to read that post again a couple more times to get what you are saying, but thanks for answering my newb question this time.

[Honest Abel]

Okay, so you're saying moonbeams is when someone who looks town to you expresses a town read of another player, and you're supposed to take that without questioning it? So you're assuming that everyone else thinks you look town? Or are you saying that DCJ looks town to you, so you trust his reads without questioning? I also did a google search of "moonbeams" on the mafiascum URL and read dozens of people using the term, but it generally seemed to have more to do with claiming than town reads. It all sounds like an interesting concept, but I really don't get it still, sorry. Maybe it's not that important.

I am a newb. This is my second game of mafia on this site if you don't count the one I dropped out of when I first joined over a year ago.

[Honest Abel]

If anyone else can explain to me why I shouldn't question Kcd's read of DCJ, please do so. I also reserve the right not to agree with it even if I begin to understand it. Otherwise, Kcd, I'm going to have to request again an explanation of why you are molesting DCJ by pairing bottomless town reads with strange affection and sheltering him from suspicion.

[Honest Abel]

P.S. I'm down for joining bandwagons on request, especially on NS. But I can't bring myself to do it when you've been acting outright strange and evasive about this thing.

[Honest Abel]

Kcd, my posts conversing with

you

have been "I don't understand" because you haven't mastered the art of the fucking comma. Maybe the reason you are reluctant to explain anything is because when you try, it turns out like #487. The way you are being so condescending and evasive is just fucking nonsense. I do not like that I am being misled and, in fact, mistreated by people I have town reads on. This is not a fun game nor a learning experience. This is a blood pressurizer.

Kcd, why don't you discuss NS or SGR with me? You are talking to me like I don't belong in this game because I'm inexperienced. I do not appreciate being talked down to.

Sorry for the attitude here, but I'm getting fed up again.

[Honest Abel]

What if I said:

Kcd you are scum because you dont know what missiletoads are and scum dont get the concept because they cant fake it and youre just like "i dont understand" well of course you dont understand missiletoads are missiletoads and thats my definition duh now go back to your corner until spoken to because me and missiletoads need to bandwagon this guy because he tried to corrupt my missiletoads and hes town because missiletoads and youre scum because missiletoads and thats all there is to it and thats all anybody should ask me for because thats how missiletoads works

[Honest Abel]

you wanna prove yourself. TAKE YOUR EGOTISTIC FMPOV AtE BS OUT OF YOUR POSTS.

The only emotion I'm appealing to is RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE. You are full of nonsense. Nobody else is posting up against you in the thread. This is irritating me.

good post: "I think W is scum/town cuase this post/xyz."
bad post: "THIS GUY IS SCUM CUZ HE HURT MAH FEELINGS AND I DON'T LIKE THAT."

I've made plenty of the former. Stop looking around the posts you don't want to see because they don't fit into MOONBEANS NANERNANERNANER. I've made none of the latter. I'm not calling you scum. I think you are town. I said as much right in that post. Read again, Mr. Comprehension.

you are doing NOTHING but the latter.

You're out of your mind. I've posted analyses of projectmatt, DCJ and SGR, but nobody talks to me or tells me what's wrong with my reads because MOONBEAMS NANERNANERNANER THAT'S ALL THAT MATTERS.

I'm sad that you didn't replace out, because as you are right now as a mafia player, unless someone else takes that slot, IT WILL NEVER BE OF USE.

You'll change.. i know you will and it will be for the better.

but it won't happen in this game.

lurk some games, play a couple of more newb games. You are in over your head kid.

PEDIT: AtE AGAIN. "HOW WOULD YOU FEEL IF I BLAHBLAHBLAH"

THAT.
IS.
NOT.
CONTENT.

That's YOU. whining!

You're a tool. I'm whining because I post content and you do not respond to it. RESPOND TO MY CONTENT. I am not taking "no" for an answer anymore. Fucking talk to me and stop disregarding my reads. You are being evasive. You are being condescending. That is not content. Moonbeams are not content. I've read several games on here and nobody has acted like you are acting now in any game I've read. Start acting like someone who people can manage being on the same team with for fuck's sake.

[Honest Abel]

I'm not fucking off just because you don't want to talk about scum. All you are interested in is defending DCJ, recruiting people to an NS bandwagon, and disregarding me because I don't know how to cook moonbeans. You are not adding anything of substance to this game.

[Honest Abel]

you were never pro town. stay you ass in the newb queue and just go away.

lol, I cannot handle this post right now. I'm going to crack up every time I see it. I may now go to bed.

[Honest Abel]

Kcd, if there's one thing I want to make sure you take away from tonight, it's this:

You are not adding anything of substance to this game.

Let's read that together one more time:

You are not adding anything of substance to this game.

Reading my content on SGR would be a nice addition, but I don't want to set my expectations so high. Let's take this one step at a time.

The sooner you realize that you are being evasive and incomprehensible and that it's why nobody is jumping on your meaningless bandwagons, the better it will be for town and for this game, period. You really need to start explaining your motivations. As it stands, you've attempted to start an NS bandwagon because of a spat he had with your lover, and you've voted me because you're irritated that I'm doing something your brain cannot understand, which is question your authority. I know, I shouldn't be questioning you because MOONBEAMS! We should just let you do all the thinking and just tell us how to vote, yeah?

[Honest Abel]

I am going to process your questions right now before I sleep.

[Honest Abel]

This post is all about me and only because Kcd asked me to do it. I don't know if this is going to be useful to read for anyone other than him, but it is more about my gameplay than it is about helping the town. Just a warning.

It keeps evading me that the game only started yesterday (?), so sorry for asking for a prod and calling out lurkers. However, I think it's unwise to lynch before everyone has gotten a chance to contribute to the thread in some way. We do have four weeks per Day. I just read another C9++ game that was over in 9 pages, which is ridiculous, so maybe that's just how you guys play.

Nothing protown about first sentence, fluff/extraneous. I firmly believe the second sentence, tell me if you disagree and why. Third and fourth go along with second as they explain why there's no reason to move the game so fast that non-posting slots should be able to cruise through to Day 3, which is probably going to happen with bv310 at this rate.

I could have shown up late as I did and disagreed with both wagons, sure, but the events of the thread would lead anyone to vote on one wagon or the other. I would have joined the projectmatt wagon if not for the fact that there are some non-contributors hanging out.

This is answering someone's suspicion that I chose matt and Josh merely because they had wagons on them already. I can't imagine how answering people's decent questions could ever not be pro-town. In the same vein, you could say that any post where I defended my actions to someone isn't pro-town, which I still disagree with. I would hope that any pro-town would be prepared to go to any length to make themselves clear on reasoning if asked. It's as simple as cooperation. And I realize I'm not placating anyone merely by defending myself, but it's a discussion and I'm going to discuss things that involve me. Seems like a no-brainer.

I joined in late assuming that the game had been going for a while, but it had only just started.

Again, explanation/clarification. Amor commented on how I appeared oblivious in the beginning. I can see why you called this out because it's only dealing with making myself look better. I know that townies shouldn't be concerned with how they look to other townies. Coincidentally, I am doing the same thing here by answering all of your queries, but you asked me to do this, yeah?

People usually think I'm scummy early on for posting a lot and trying to get things serious quickly. However, I am here because I like playing a thoughtful game.

Definitely fluff. I don't know why I post things like that; to establish a conversational tone with people I've never talked to before?

but I admitted that it was my personal confusion that led me to ask about them, and I did think it could help me get a better read on NS, DonJosh and Kcd knowing what they were referring to.

Defending my question about #33 through #41. Reiterating that I was confused. In part hoping people will be patient with me. It's all about me, again.

It is meaningless. Proclaiming town reads always are. Which is why there was nothing to my statement.

The point of me calling the read "temporary" is that I'm prepared to move on to pressuring/questioning someone else in the interest of putting the focus on more than a single person in Day 1. Once what I think is a fair amount of discussion/contribution has occurred, I'll take into account what has happened in the Day and decide to vote.

Clarification to make sure I'm understood. All about me, again. Not very pro-town.

I'm not unused to the focus being on

me

in Day 1 — it usually is because I post a lot and I try to get the most people interacting in the thread, which draws a lot of attention.

More personal sharing/fluff. Nothing pro-town here.

Maybe it sounds like I'm trying to tell people what to do too much and that I think I'm the shit, but I'd like to point out that I am quite humble about my scumhunting abilities and that I'm not often very accurate in my suspicions.

Making myself look humble so people will like me/fluff/not pro-town.

You realize this is my second game on this site, right?

Yeah i think i look good when i look in a mirror too.

Not as good as me.

Town can't win if there are people not contributing.

Been saying this for a while. Are you acting superior or just sheeping me? Remains to be seen.

Good now stand in the corner like a good boy and let the grown-ups argue.

When you are needed you will be called on.

Sounds good.

the second and 4th ones where good chances to prove yourself town but nope. you don't wanna take a risk you want to be in the backgroud posting walls of useless long shit.

I don't know how I could have proven myself town with 2 or 4; 1 was disbelief that you were talking down to me and I was dejected after having my questions disregarded, and 3 is an irrelevant stab because I didn't feel like talking very much and indeed asked to be replaced not too long after.

I understand that these things are not pro-town and add up to a lot of fluff. I was more concerned with people having an honest representation of me, or, hate to admit, even an undeserved positive representation of me, than with helping the town in those posts. Thank you for actually looking through my posts and asking me to do that. Truly humbling.

Now, I have made other posts about other people. If you will read them and start discussing with me, I'd appreciate it. SGR, please.

[Honest Abel]

you want to be in the backgroud posting walls of useless long shit.

Can I ask what it is about my pressure on other players that is so useless? Is it because I'm not saying "I have this secret read that I can't tell anyone, but these dudes are definitely scum" before my posts? And the fact that you see me as being in the background, despite me trying to keep this game alive and looking into players nobody else seems to give a fuck about looking into, is retarded if only because it's skewed so subjectively that it makes me certain you are town.

You are really just not going to cooperate. This is a team game to you only so far as we are the team and you are our coach, yeah? Dealing with you has been a huge waste of time.

[Honest Abel]

None of those points made sense. I don't know what post striping is. I don't see any striped posts. That "second" sentence doesn't have a direct point and it doesn't attack anyone, but it's trying to persuade people to want to hear from non-posters rather than speeding through the game. I pointed a finger at bv310 because he's inactive and it supports my point, not because inactivity makes him scummy. I'm pushing suspicion at Josh and matt? LOL, you are really out of it. That's what you call a pro-town assessment?

The rest of my post isn't supposed to help my case. I don't give a shit about my case anymore. I am talking to you about what you want to talk about because you do not want to talk about anything else. I was not accusing you of sheeping; as I said right after that, I was being sarcastic/ballsy with most of those posts because, yes, you made me want to give up. Due to you being a condescending dickwad. You are good at some things, but terrible at others. I at least admit that I am terrible.

I will not be joining either of your bandwagons, especially not the one on me.

[Honest Abel]

as said you bring nothing to the table. the rest of your posts are one-liners. your "pressure" means NOTHING w/o good points.

I defy you to look at a couple of my points and explain why they aren't good. Let's use SGR as a test. I'm perfectly fine with the possibility that you're going to make me look like an ass, too. Please proceed.

secret town tell is good. it's useful just in case you face them as scum later in the game or in another game entirely. if it's blatantly known it becomes less reliable. but i think it's good still.

It's good for you and your meta. Which I don't give a shit about in the slightest.

LOLOL to the last. are you calling me a VI? if you want a real analogy we are ALL coaches shouting at each other. just some more than others.

I like that analogy, but you're still being a intolerable prick compared to everyone else.

[Honest Abel]

EBWOP: I will say this though. All game the Empty Slot has done nothing but insult anyone who dares question him, his methods, or his affiliation. Empty Slot always overreacts.

I wish people would question my methods. Not once has anyone responded to my scumhunting. I've even asked people to question my methods. I still am. Talk about SGR.

Not near as bad as NS, sure, but instead of an explosion all at once, it's been constant the entire game. Granted I can't say I've helped, but at the same time I'm not the only one he has insulted.

Can say the same about you.

Seems everyone who challenges him is instantly stupid, or a prick. Or both.

It's not about challenging me and it's not instant. It's about not challenging me, and he's acting like a prick because he's being condescending without explaining why I'm so useless. I've challenged him to explain how any of my points on SGR are bad. I would also accept any criticism on my DCJ and projectmatt posts. The fact is, though, that nobody has ever talked about them. All people talk about is my defenses against Amor and the fact that I am actually answering people's questions about me instead of ignoring everyone like everyone is ignoring me.

[Honest Abel]

Amor, I'm a newbie who doesn't know what moonbeams are and is not very good at scumhunting. I've asked for opinions or at the veryleast responses on my scumhunting, but I'm not getting any. I'm getting opinions on my defenses. But I know how to stand up to pressure. There's nothing mutually exclusive there.

They were my top two if they were my only two, sure, I admitted that in the next post. I don't understand why I can't think someone is scummy if they've only posted two scummy things and nobody else except one talkative guy had posted anything too scummy yet. I'm not punishing people for posting more. Scumhunting people is not punishment. It's effective only because people who are here to talk will be able to defend themselves or at the very least react to scumhunting. Imagine if I spent the whole day scumhunting on bv310. Where would that lead us?

I admit that I moved onto a useless vote, but not after I realized it was useless. I didn't think bv would disappear entirely. And the thing about Kcd's wagons is that they never materialize and never add pressure to anyone, because he's essentially asking people to join his cause without thinking about it on their own. My case on SGR is not lack of content. It's icing. SGR and bv are different because SGR has avoided prods whereas bv hasn't.

I have to go to brunch, my girlfriend is giving me the evil eye.

[Honest Abel]

Abel: why are you not voting ns?

also, did you post a case on SG? if so, give me a post number to read, or perhaps just summarize it in a clear and concise manner. thank you.

Sorry I didn't get a chance to respond to your post, my girlfriend was getting mad because she was hungry, so I had to go. I'm not even done responding to Amor, I don't think.

You mean why am I not voting NS right now, or why I said I wasn't going to join Kcd's bandwagon? I think NS has been scummy and has some unexplained behavior. However, I was in the middle of looking at SGR when Kcd was going after NS, so I would prefer to stay on him at the moment, especially because SGR hasn't addressed my post on him other than saying I have good points, and he did promise to more thoroughly address my post. The other reason I'm not voting NS is because Kcd is telling me to. I do not trust Kcd's bandwagons merely because he does not explain why we should follow him and because he doesn't care whether or not people join his bandwagons for any reason at all. In fact, it seems like he would prefer it is people joined his bandwagons for NO reason, which is not very pro-town because it's basically inviting scum to lynch people with no repercussions. I will focus on NS when I decide NS is the person to focus on. I'm not going to do it right now just because Kcd is pleading for me to.

Here's my post on SGR. It really isn't very long. I will even more briefly summarize the key points and the auxiliary points if you want me to, just say the word: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p3298584

[Honest Abel]

Actually, here you go:

Main scum alarm on SGR:

Changes his mind about Kcd's "three-scum mistake" being a scum slip to being a town mistake for no reason other than to appear at disagreement with DonJosh, while still saying that he would be fine to lynch Kcd just in case DonJosh succeeded in forming a bandwagon on Kcd.

Support points:

• Posted several times only to avoid prod
  
• Keeps promising in-depth discussion and never follows through
  
• Certainty of DonJosh alignment too strong
  
• "Good job on lynching scum" sounds untownly

[Honest Abel]

Amor, I can criticize a dumb reason to vote for someone while still thinking that someone is scummy. Calling projectmatt out for voting for DonJosh for a stupid reason isn't defending DonJosh, it's pointing out that they are scumbuddies.

[Honest Abel]

And while we're on that topic, a lot of the criticism against me seems to be that I attacked projectmatt because he was going after DonJosh, and you all now think that projectmatt is town? They were clearly bussing each other in the beginning of the game. I still find projectmatt near the top of my scum list.

[Honest Abel]

Maybe he's taking notes.

[Honest Abel]

Good point about certainty. I suppose the distinction is determining whether someone is saying something like that out of appearing confident to scum or because they actually know something we don't. In the cases of projectmatt and SGR, though, they were proven to be right when DonJosh flipped scum. So the "certainty factor" doesn't just strike me as confidence in their abilities, especially compared to the level of their scumhunting/reasoning.

I don't believe that my "support points" are a good enough reason to determine scum by themselves. That's why they're support points are not the main points. But any good scum case needs to have more than one point. It's about how things add up. You can't just someone based on one post, like some other players are doing in this game (think Kcd's town read of DCJ based on one post despite him admitting constantly that DCJ is acting counter to the town read).

That said, I will look at NS a little more closely soon. I so not want to let SGR slide through inactivity, though.

[Honest Abel]

Seems pretty belieavable

Believable as it is, he could have been expressing his confusion/shock as either of these:

• Whoops, I'm a townie who mistakenly believed something false about the game
  
• Whoops, I'm scum who slipped my knowledge that there are three scum

But if you didn't see it that way, you didn't see it that way. I'm going to have to read that whole area again to see how I feel about your defense.

[Honest Abel]

Kcd, it would be a lot easier to trust your reads and follow your bandwagons if you gave any reasons at all for thinking what you think. Been saying this all along. You are hopeless.

[Honest Abel]

Thank god. Welcome, izak. Take your time catching up, since we're already waiting for NS to catch up. Might be interesting to see who can catch up faster.

[Honest Abel]

UNVOTE: SGRaaize; after rereading that episode, you do not appear scummy due to my main "catch" on you. Mostly because of how your opinion could have been affected by Muffin's contribution, which I missed before and was good even if Kcd couldn't save himself. Don't think the support points on you add up to anything on their own. Very laconic, but you have me leaning quiet town. More discussion from you would be helpful.

NS, not even reading back on you in earnest yet, you've been acting extremely aloof and scummy in recent times and in my memory, while remaining ever-present. I'm waiting for you to suddenly show up with a big wall of awesomeness to prove everyone wrong about you, but you are either playing at something or just can't muster up the effort. I really don't get it. And the way you jumped on Kcd for the mishap on pgs. 13/14 (the thing I was just talking about with SGR) seemed like too easy of a thing to really jump on someone about.

I'm more than ready to hear more from you.
VOTE: Nobody Special

[Honest Abel]

Huh, what are you implying? You're implying kcd admitted he's scum but then changed his mind or something?

Not admitted, but if his surprise sounded genuine, it could have been because he actually did slip up for one reason or another.

[Honest Abel]

Surprise, shock, embarrassment, whatever you want to call it when you realize your dick has been flopping in the wind through your zipper all day.

Sure, you proved it afterward using logic and mathematics, but your intuitive impression was that there are definitely three scum. Whereas I don't think anyone else had that intuitive impression based on the setup. Unless somehow you are some kinda robot who understands statistics immediately how the rest of us know that bananas are yellow.

[Honest Abel]

Take, for instance, how you had to prove it by showing everyone the math.

[Honest Abel]

Did I imply that town wouldn't assume there'd be three scum? I said almost no player would assume there'd be three scum without calculating the statistics beforehand, which I don't think anyone did. It doesn't even look like Kcd did it beforehand, which makes his assumption stand out. Basically, nobody agreed with him until he whipped out the calculator to show people. But that's supporting his statement after the fact. There's also Muffin's point here:

Actually there are a few ways you could know it without being scum. But I wouldn't read too deeply into that being anything more than an assumption.

Basically, I can't tell whether Kcd slipped because he's scum or a special role, or whether it was just a mistake. I don't think anybody can, unless there's something I'm missing. It's weird, but it's not something I would decide his alignment on. NS attacking it despite the fact that it's not really consequential is scummy.

By the way, Amor, what are your feelings on other players? You've been tunneling me since the beginning of the game, why not take a break?

[Honest Abel]

This is my first C9++ and I didn't realize the odds were so overwhelmingly in favor of there being three scum. From the looks of the reactions that people gave, nobody else seemed to realize it either. I would probably want to run the numbers myself before actually accusing Kcd of anything based on that, anyway. But it's something that comes down to personal judgment, and mine is that his reaction was too obscure to make a case off of. Which in turn makes the way NS made such a confident attack on Kcd look scummy to me.

I don't think we should lynch anyone until izak chimes in. I think we can give up on NS catching up at this point.

[Honest Abel]

Oh my goodness. Quickly read over. I have to digest that before I vote. I also might want to read another Kcd game now because is this really his play style? lol.

It seemed pretty obvious to me that DCJ posted very little of value the entire game. When I called him out for not giving any reasons for his vote, he and Kcd sort of teamed up to make me look stupid. The Kcd defense in general was confusing. I assumed Kcd was cop or mason with DCJ. Those are the only two ways you can know someone is town in this setup, right? Except for the sanity issue. But if Kcd is going back on his unexplained town read, DCJ seems like just as good or better a choice than NS, for almost all of the same reasons.

But I'm still wary of Kcd. The way he's been successfully leading the game around could be dangerous. izak, what do you think of that? Am I overthinking Kcd?

[Honest Abel]

Why would somebody claim at L-2 anyway?

[Honest Abel]

Kcd, your #603 is well and good, but why #599? What is with the begging and flattery to get people to join your bandwagons every time? If I had a strong scum read, I suppose I would try to get people to join a bandwagon, too, but you do it in awfully roundabout ways.

Also, I'm not confident about the don_johnson vote on DCJ. Looks like he was the first to realize DCJ was going down in flames and wanted to get on the wagon as soon as possible with saying as little as possible. I don't think don_johnson is obvious town at all. Kcd, why did you think don_johnson was "conf town"? (P.S., what does that mean?) Then again, I guess if DCJ is lynched and turns out to be the cop, don_johnson will be cleared.

I think things need to cool down a bit before deciding on a lynch.

[Honest Abel]

I just briefly looked at two Kcd games, one where he was town and another where he was mafia (Newbie 1036 and Open 309). To me, this game looks more like his town play, except I can't find any good examples of him getting as worked up as he's gotten here in either. But he seemed a lot calmer in his scum game and more likely to post long paragraphs, whereas the town game has him posting like he does here, with posts full of short statements. Right now I'm thinking Kcd is town. He's been against a lot of actually scummy people even though he's sometimes reluctant to give his own explanations, but I think he's more about the pressure than the logic. #603 seemed like a legit review of DCJ. I'm going with it.

VOTE: Darkcoffeejazz

[Honest Abel]

It's as simple as this: I never said Kcd's comment was a scumslip. I said it's impossible to tell whether it was a scumslip or a town mistake. And that NS being so confident about it is scummy, especially since

he

didn't explain why it's a scumslip.

If you don't get that, you're either not trying or don't want to.

[Honest Abel]

Furthermore,

I said almost no player would assume there'd be three scum

If no player would assume it, then the only players who would automatically know it would be the scum in question. You're splitting imaginary hairs again.

If the difference between "almost no player" and "no player" is imaginary, then so are the hairs on Kcd's imaginary head.

[Honest Abel]

Above post is just one example in a sea of many in which you misquote and distort my statements to suit your purposes.

[Honest Abel]

Like I didn't know that. That's why I find the tunneling confusing. He's trying too hard to see what he wants to see. But he's only doing it with me. Scum would probably be giving confusing reads all over the place. I just can't figure out what he's up to.

I'm AH, right? Should be HA, but you can just call me Abel.

[Honest Abel]

Doing a quick rank of everyone before my meeting, I'll give a little more detail later. Top being most town, bottom being most scum. The line represents the break between town and scum.

izak, Kcdaspot
SGRaaize, Amor
don_johnson
———————
projectmatt
NS, DCJ

[Honest Abel]

Above post is just one example in a sea of many in which you misquote and distort my statements to suit your purposes.

You seem

REAL

sure about that town read, eh?

I've thought from the beginning that Amor was town because of the pressure he's trying to put on me. The relentless tunneling is weird, but the pressure is decent. However, he's been twisting a lot of my posts to make them seem scummier than they are, or just to make it look like I'm not being logical. It absolutely adds pressure and puts me on the defensive, but a lot of it is forced. I don't mean that his purposes are scummy. In fact, I'm quite confused about his purposes, but it's clear he has some if he's not backing off of me. I would have to do a closer analysis of Amor if I want to change my mind about his alignment. But right now I'm keeping him on my town list.

It would help to know why he's so certain I'm scum that he won't say more than a single line about any other player. He's absolutely acting as though he's a cop and got a scum result on me.

[Honest Abel]

This probably means nothing, but I just looked at the setup and figured out the odds of having two scum: 1/128. Seems small, but when you think about it, it's actually the highest odds out of any setup. There's a .5 chance of getting a T. There's a lot less chance of getting any other letter. So compare TTTTTTT (2 scum) to, say, TTTTTTD (3 scum and a doctor), and the comparison you're looking at is 1/128 to 1/640. Kcd's mathematics on the situation and the way everyone swallowed it was bugging me because it seemed like Ts are easier to get, and they are. I'm not particularly bothered to continue doing the math right now, but considering that only three of the remaining seven possibilities (T, TTT, TTTTT) allow for three scum, it's certain, and likely overwhelming, that the odds are in favor of us having two or four scum over having three scum.

[Honest Abel]

I prefaced it by saying it probably doesn't mean anything, so you didn't have to read it. And you didn't say all that. You said that the odds of having three scum are overwhelming, which is why you thought there were three scum. Whereas it's actually overwhelming that there aren't three scum. You said the opposite. Which might mean something to somebody at some point.

[Honest Abel]

It doesn't mean anything to me. You just don't understand statistics. That's not scummy.

[Honest Abel]

@Amor: I just realized I was doing the statistics wrong, but not for the reasons you pointed out. Real stats of three scum vs. two scum w/o SK: 3:1. But I guess we can talk in a thread about C9++ if we want to continue that conversation.

Even ignoring this particular set-ups, mini normals generally have 3 scum, so it would be completely normal for town to think that way automatically. When it comes to scumslips the question to ask is simply "Is it possible that this person would post this if they were town?" and here I think the answer is definitely "Yes", no matter your attempts to muddy the issue.

Attempts to muddy the issue? I believe it was either a town mistake or a scum slip, and I never said otherwise. What is unclear?

I've been debating about whether or not to hammer DCJ. On the one hand, his premature claim was extremely suspicious, and the rest of his play doesn't do much to mitigate that. But I'm also wary of lynching a claimed cop. If we're wrong about him being scum, then leaving him alive for a few more days will give us information we need, and if we're right then he'll get himself tangled up in fake results soon enough. What do you guys think?

That's a reasonable attitude, but if he's scum, how do you know he'll get tangled up in fake results soon enough? Imagine we lynch a townie today, and DCJ leads us to falsely lynch a townie tomorrow (we'd have to trust him to see if he's right, assuming he posts a guilty result). We'd then have to wait to lynch him the following day. So that's 1 townie lynched + 1 townie nightkilled + 1 townie lynched + 1 townie nightkilled + 1 townie nightkilled = 5 town killed before we can begin looking for the final scum, if there is one (odds are 3:1 there are three scum; knew that would come in handy). That would put us in a two-town-vs.-goon final day, right? Maybe that's actually the most logical thing to do.

UNVOTE: Darkcoffeejazz

Kcd, I don't see how DCJ already got fake results. Explain please?

[Honest Abel]

While I obviously don't agree with the vote on me, what do you have against the plan, Kcd? Let this be a discussion. And tell me why DCJ has fake results.

[Honest Abel]

The only thing I can see right now that would make you against letting DCJ live is if he turns out to be scum, you might suffer a wounded ego for letting him lead you/us around.

[Honest Abel]

I think Kcd was just being overly confident about DCJ getting fake results. I don't see any way that Kcd would know don_johnson is not town, unless Kcd is also a cop. Then that would mean either DCJ is lying, or one of DCJ/Kcd is insane. So nothing absolute that DCJ shared fake results.

If it really is that case that both Kcd and DCJ are cops and they both happened to investigate don_johnson, the only logical thing to do would be to lynch don to see which is sane and which is insane. Possible Doctor would have to choose between protecting them, but I'd say the best bet would be to protect the sane cop just to cover our asses just in case the "insane cop" were actually lying.

Also, Kcd being cop might explain the confidence about DCJ being town early on, but maybe later Kcd realized he might be insane and no longer felt like relying on the result? Insanity would explain why he thinks don is scum (only reason he would say DCJ got fake results, except he hasn't been going after don at all), and if he did get a town result on DCJ, then we'd know that DCJ is scum, too.

Kcd, I know you said you aren't cop, but given the circumstances, it would help if you claim if you actually are cop. Anyone feel free to point out flaws/oversights in my logic.

[Honest Abel]

Also, don, I didn't feel that Amor's case on me was certain enough to justify a lynch. I've been responding to it all along, but it would probably help if you or Amor would summarize the case concisely so that I could address easy issue concisely. Some of Amor's earlier points seemed twisted to me, and my defenses were probably a little too self-serving, so going through the case again simply and logically would give us all a better shot at the truth. That and I really don't remember exactly what Amor was on about at this point.

[Honest Abel]

projectmatt is on V/LA for a week. I forget when he gets back.

It might be more useful to see/think about

why

people were on the D1 lynch wagon than saying "all three were and one of them is scum." And obviously other people were on it, too, so what about them?

I just don't see Amor's points adding up to a good reason to lynch me, and you're not giving any reasons for joining him. The thing that was good about his play wasn't his logic, it was his pressure. How do I even know you read Amor's points? Seems like a free pass for you. The only real logic that has been used against me was when Kcd highlighted my rambling and asked me to explain how it was protown, and most of it wasn't.

[Honest Abel]

It might be more useful to see/think about

why

people were on the D1 lynch wagon than saying "all three were and one of them is scum." And obviously other people were on it, too, so what about them?

EBWOP: I thought you meant you took our names off the D1 lynch wagon, but you actually meant that we weren't on it. I was going to say, at least I gave reasons for why DonJosh was scummy, whereas NS probably didn't and Amor was already hung up on me. But I was on bv310 when the day ended, so nevermind.

[Honest Abel]

NS, what makes it a great lynch? If he's actually a cop, it's not

that

great. And all we would be able to say afterward is "Whoops! Well it was his fault, not ours"? Nah. Do you have anything at all to say about don_johnson's or my ideas? You are being purposely terse. Playing lynchbait?

[Honest Abel]

I couldn't vote for matt and Josh at the same time.

[Honest Abel]

It's dangerous to take things out of context like that.

[Honest Abel]

I don't quite understand the purpose of FoS, especially if I state my suspicions anyway. Is it just to flag it on the page and catch people's eye? I thought I made it clear in #126 that I found both matt and Josh scummy, and then proceeded to focus on matt because he had been scummier and was posting more. I'm not the kind of guy who stakes my entire desire to lynch someone on two short posts like DonJosh had at that time. And he never really took the opportunity to get active in the game.

[Honest Abel]

Kcd, answer don_johnson and me. #670 through #675.

[Honest Abel]

I thought I made it clear in #126 that I found both matt and Josh scummy, and then proceeded to focus on matt because he had been scummier and was posting more.

Also, just recalling that we've already talked about this in detail before, so Amor acting like I had no reason not to vote for DonJosh is nuts or purposely deceptive.

Fos: Amor

How's that? I'm starting to tire of this guy and think he's been a little overzealous about being on my case.

[Honest Abel]

This is the first time I've accused you of taking something out of context, I think. I've accused you of changing my wording around or arguing against me based on altered wording. I will give examples of that if it will suffice, but for now I have to make dinner.

I'm not sure I understand your first paragraph there, though, so please explain it differently if you'd be so kind. I think voting for matt is just as much something a townie would do as voting for josh was, given matt was just as scummy or, in my opinion, scummier than josh.

[Honest Abel]

Also, I'm fine just talking with you for now as long as you are. Just post more. This game is dreadfully slow and I'm waiting for responses.

[Honest Abel]

Semantics. The point is you've said I've distorted your points a lot, and I don't think I have.

No, not semantics. Different things. Multiple things. I will post examples and explain how you distorted my statements tonight.

Scum can make up whatever reads they want, but it's their actions you have to pay attention to, and your actions were in line with what scum would do to defend a buddy in that situation. This is basically the same point I made in my big case at the start of this day.

It's not enough to say I was defending him. Please post examples of me defending DonJosh. I will gladly explain how and why you are wrong in each case.

I think the problem here is that we have 4 people voting, all of whom seem to have made up their minds pretty firmly (except maybe NS), and then you not voting but still posting, and then four people who are all either away, catching up, or just mysteriously gone. It's hard to get anything done when half the players aren't here.

That's absolutely a problem. This has turned into the slowest mafia game I've ever played. I'm not voting because I was expecting a discussion about strategy related to DCJ. Otherwise, I'm quite ready to lynch NS or DCJ. I just don't see the point in rushing the day just because some players seem to be taking a break.

[Honest Abel]

matt, why are you not commenting on the DCJ cop claim?

[Honest Abel]

Okay, you said you don't know what to think. P.S., since he asked to replace out, he hasn't been in this thread, but has been elsewhere on the site. I think it's safe to say he's through with the game. Good luck to whoever wants to take his spot.

[Honest Abel]

The following is a record of Amor twisting of my words (because he asked). The first few are subtle and possibly understandable how he misinterpreted, I admit. The latter cases are blatant, though, which makes the subtle ones also seem purposeful. That said, this probably isn't something only scum would do. I appreciate that Amor has been putting pressure on me, but the logic just isn't there, and for much of it, he has to manipulate my words to make a point:

What's convenient about agreeing with wagons?

You're saying that it's not convenient and safe to head into a thread and say "I agree with what everyone else said"

Nope, didn't say it's not convenient. I asked what was convenient because I didn't see what was about what

I

did. That said, I see how it could be a safe move to come in and agree with almost everyone in any general situation, but

I

didn't show up and just say "I agree with everyone." I gave my own reasons in #126, none of which had been brought up before except maybe the first, which hadn't been stated explicity.

He tried to set himself up as the ur-townie when he came into the thread being all "you guys need to post bettar"

Exaggeration/strawman. I wasn't trying to set myself up as something, I was trying to set up a comprehensible game to play in. I didn't say I was better than anyone else, but something needed to be said eventually.

I'm not unused to the focus being on me in Day 1 — it usually is because I post a lot and I try to get the most people interacting in the thread, which draws a lot of attention.

the last sentence is basically "People are just attacking me because I'm so pro-town and active", which is ridiculous.

Except I said it in the midst of nobody attacking me, except you, and you hadn't been too proactive about it at that point.

In his next post he proceeds to soft-defending Josh by attacking Matt's case on him.

Based on that "wall," it seems like projectmatt finds DonJosh scummy for two reasons:

DonJosh forgot that there was a reroll (something NS also admitted)
DonJosh seemed overly defensive (something that projectmatt himself is more guilty of)

Based on what projectmatt has said and nothing else, I find a disparity between his weak suspicions of DonJosh and his confidence that DonJosh is scum. If we were to lynch DonJosh and he flips scum, projectmatt should definitely be the next move. My only concern is that DonJosh doesn't seem scummy enough to me to lynch at the moment.

This is a clear-cut case of defending someone while stating a token suspicion on them, which is clear scum-scum interaction. He's basically attacking the case against Josh and Matt is scummy for voting him, while hedging it in a language that tries to make it looks like he still suspects Josh. The last paragraph is extremely revealing. He sets up a chain lynch on Matt if Josh flips scum, despite saying that he doesn't really think Josh is scummy.

You really go overboard here. Not once in that quote do I say Josh is not scummy. At the most I say Josh is as scummy as NS for one reason and that matt is scummier than Josh for the other reason. I was critiquing matt's weak line of reasoning. And his weak reasoning on Josh was not the only thing against him at the time.[/list]

I'm assuming you're talking about DonJosh when you say "His reaction was panic"? Or Big Sleep? I can see that applying to DonJosh's reaction to the two-vote wagon. But since then, he hasn't been defending himself or panicking at all, it seems. Which is why I said earlier that it would be better to put more pressure on you guys.

At this point -- only one RL day since his post expressing suspicion of Josh -- he's full-on defending him. Buddylicious.

Suggesting that we put more pressure on scummy behavior is defending him? Saying he's not defending himself and not panicking (which was really a reference to him not posting at all, because he hadn't been) was not a defense of him. If anything, it's a reason he was scummy.

if someone says "I'm voting X because Y" and you say "X hasn't done Y at all" that's at the very least a soft defense. This is a lot scummier than outright defending someone is, because it tries to move votes off your partner while adding an air of plausible deniability.

I simply have not done that (until this sentence ), yet you bank a case on it without example.






Also found these gems in rereading Amor's posts. Talk about defending DonJosh:

Guys let's not lynch DonJosh.

Because Josh is an obvious mislynch, that's why. He's just the kind of lazy townie that scum try to push a lynch towards with authorative statements like the ones quoted above.

Also, I find it pretty convenient that you happen to wonder whether you were wrong about Josh right as he hits L-2.

Something to keep in mind for D3.

[Honest Abel]

Sure, right after you respond to #670 to #675.

[Honest Abel]

I'm not sold that don_johnson is obvious town, and maybe DCJ wasn't either. I don't think it's enough to say he's lying. Investigating the dead guy is suspiciously convenient, though, but you buy it?

It would have helped if DCJ gave reasons for his investigations. I don't think anyone is going to fill his spot if they take a look at the thread first.

[Honest Abel]

Actually, I think I see what you're saying: not just that it's weird DCJ would investigate don_johnson, but that it makes total sense for a fake cop to say they got a town read on don_johnson, because nobody's going to say otherwise. Or maybe that's not what you're saying, but that's what makes sense to me. All he said about it is that don_johnson is a "monkey with a gun who barely posts." lol, okay.

[Honest Abel]

I'm not making a case why Amor is scummy. In fact, rereading his posts before, I could probably make a better case why he's town. 90% of his focus was on me, but he did comment on relevant other happenings at the time and asked pointed questions or made good assertions about other players, too. If DCJ or NS were to flip town, I'd look more into Amor for defending DonJosh, but there's not much else to the case other than that. #706 is me defending myself to a townie, sorry to say.

[Honest Abel]

As always, your enthusiasm makes it difficult.

But given that he's been pointedly useless the whole game, that he put forward a suspicious L-2 copclaim (L-2 might have made sense if he had a

good

claim to make, but alas), and that he's basically fried his slot:

VOTE: Darkcoffeejazz

[Honest Abel]

Just a notice, that makes it L-1.

[Honest Abel]

Oh, you're right. Five to lynch, not four.

[Honest Abel]

Amor, points taken. I'm not going to keep going back and forth at this point, as my defense is clear and maybe so is your case. Anything you need me to address, let me know.

[Honest Abel]

Hate to say it guys, but if we don't lynch DCJ, what happens with his slot? Is anybody really going to fill it? It's either caught mafia or outed cop. The slot is fried. Say we leave it alive the entire game and nobody steps in, what's going to happens on a final day with three players left? It's going to have to be lynched regardless.

[Honest Abel]

If it remains unreplaced long enough, the Mod should Modkill it.

If we end up leaving it alive and it's unfilled, agreed.

Still not removing my vote due to the other reasons I stated.

[Honest Abel]

I really don't know what to think about DCJ

When are you going to start knowing what to think, after he's lynched? How hard is it? Talk about pussyfooting.

[Honest Abel]

I'm hesitant to follow a guy who says to switch my vote from the supposed cop who claims he's town. DJ has also been trying to keep DCJ alive the whole way. So now we have another reason to lynch DCJ: if he flips scum, DJ is going to look mighty suspect. Flips town/cop, maybe not so much.

[Honest Abel]

Protecting him is scummy if he flips scum. I also wouldn't call you the most obvtown player, but different strokes.

[Honest Abel]

Sure, but the case isn't as strong on him and we probably won't learn as much from lynching NS because he's been too aloof to interact with players in meaningful ways.

If it's such an obvious town thing to protect an uncc'd cop with an unlikely claim, why are you the only person doing it? Is that your escape clause when he flips scum?

[Honest Abel]

Also, why would anyone cc cop when there's the likelihood of two cops? Makes no sense.

[Honest Abel]

How does that possibility make his claim any more believable?

[Honest Abel]

How is anyone supposed to pressure anyone when you butt in and say people are town in the middle of it? You've done this to me and other people about DCJ, about Amor, and told Amor to back off of me. What's the productivity in that, especially when your reads are likely to change 180 as they have? You're a habitual dismisser.

[Honest Abel]

Regardless, we are talking about why we should lynch DCJ or not, so if DJ would answer my last question or has anything to add to the conversation, that would be appreciated.

[Honest Abel]

There's nothing constructive to say about DCJ until he flips.

However, I still think DJ's reasoning is nonsense. If it's possible that there are two cops, all the more reason to lynch DCJ because we could have another anyway, assuming DCJ's claim were true. I don't understand how you see it the other way around. It's not more likely that there are two cops than one cop, it's a little less likely. But we're not talking about comparative likelihood. It's simply possible. Nobody in their right mind would have cc'd knowing that it's possible for there to be two cops, which invalidates your whole reason for defending him.

[Honest Abel]

uh no. him not being cc'd is not my "whole" reason for defending him. try reading.

Abel: dcj is uncc'd cop. Protecting him isnt scummy regardless of his flip. Lrn to play.

Abel, he is uncc'd cop. Town is just as(if not more) likely to protect him in this situation regardless of his actual alignment. If you cant recognize that then you aren't learning.

Seems like your main reason here. And the main reason you find the time to call yourself obvtown. Rest harder on your laurels. Also, I would appreciate a little less condescension in each and every post you make.

[Honest Abel]

also, caught scum will generally claim protective roles more often than investigative roles imo, but thats just opinion and speculation based on my experience. so yeah.

That's generally my impression too, just based on the fact that there's no real way for them ever to get tripped up about their night actions. However, it seemed like DCJ planned his claim at the start of the game when he voted for jason just so that he could say he was trying to check his sanity. And claiming at L-2 just made it look like he was anxious to use his

great

strategy.

[Honest Abel]

Not to mention actually wanting to follow through with a lynch of a random person just to check his own sanity seems a little out there. Really not very believable.

Based on the way he flipped out and hammered himself, seems like he's probably town, yeah. It still should be revealing looking why people voted for him or didn't vote for him.

[Honest Abel]

If you sound condescending, it's probably because you keep saying I need to learn to play and/or read. But no worries.

I agree that waiting for D3 certainly isn't protown. While you've been on the right bandwagon and off of the wrong one, your reasons about DCJ still aren't quite convincing. If the goal of this game were to be more correct than everyone else, you might win. Hoping the thread is still open when I get home so I can look at your reasons for being on the DJ wagon.

[Honest Abel]

People should also post quick reads/rankings before the day ends if possible.

More town toward the top, more scum toward the bottom. Above the first line is town, between the two lines is null, below the second line is scum:

Kcdaspot
Amor
————————
SGRaaize
izakthegoomba
don_johnson
————————
projectmatt
NS

[Honest Abel]

Okay. Never heard that before, so tell me how and why it's a bad idea. Also why would anyone make decisions based off of my reads?

[Honest Abel]

I was just checking on that. There has to be two scum left unless there is a serial killer who hasn't been killing. There's no advantage to that strategy, correct?

I did a reread of the thread and made a little chart plotting relationships. I'll get into that tonight.

[Honest Abel]

P.S., SGR, you're probably going to take some heat for that hammer. Are you actually claiming it was an accidental lynch?

[Honest Abel]

That doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

What did you mean when you said "Curious to see where this goes"? I assumed it meant that you wanted to lynch NS. Wanting to lynch and actually doing it is fine, but you didn't give any justification of your own and you made it the shortest day I've ever seen in a game of mafia, thereby preventing any discussion. Now you're saying you don't know whether you did it on purpose or not. It really adds up to a load of nonsense.

VOTE: SGRaaize

You've done a good job until now at making sure not to talk too much. You might want to start.

[Honest Abel]

That doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

What did you mean when you said "Curious to see where this goes"? I assumed it meant that you wanted to lynch NS. Wanting to lynch and actually doing it is fine, but you didn't give any justification of your own and you made it the shortest day I've ever seen in a game of mafia, thereby preventing any discussion. Now you're saying you don't know whether you did it on purpose or not. It really adds up to a load of nonsense.

VOTE: SGRaaize

You've done a good job until now at making sure not to talk too much. You might want to start.

[Honest Abel]

SGR, also explain what happened in between you saying the NS case is "overblown" (#695) and hammering him. I know you said you would PoE him if DCJ and DJ turned up town, but is that all there is to it? It seems like a blatant disregard of reason or town intent. Hammering a guy you earlier simply found "neutral" while contributing nothing to the conversation other than saying the case on him is overblown is an anomaly.

I also demand that you make a decision one way or another whether you hammered him on purpose or it was an accident. Leaving it open ended just prevents people from detecting intent/purpose in your earlier posts, which you shouldn't want to do if you are town.

[Honest Abel]

UNVOTE: SGRaaize

Forgot about that.

Also, the chart is really not for posting. I've posted charts in the past and they lead to confusion. It's just a tool for me to keep track of how players treat other players. I will, however, post any good conclusions I draw from doing that.

[Honest Abel]

But you knew goomba warned it was L-1 before you did it?

[Honest Abel]

Got caught up more in another game which is more active than this one. I'll show this one some more love tomorrow. I don't know how people juggle two or more games at once; I'm certainly never doing it again.

That said, I had another look at SGR's iso and I just realized I fucked up reading his responses to the D1 Kcd slip situation earlier (#475, #562). What made me believe he had a genuine change of heart was that I looked at #324 and read up to #377 and saw plenty of reasons for him to have changed his mind there, with Muffin and PM's input. For some reason, it wasn't until just now that I saw #369 in his iso, in which he says "I think he legitimately caught you on that slip," which changes everything. Nothing happens between #369 and #377 that should change his mind except DonJosh's input. SGR does a 180 in the span of 2 hours/8 posts and leverages it against DonJosh there in order to distance himself and probably bus him. With #369 in mind, I see no other reason SGR would change his opinion.

Sorry to bring that up again, but it really nullifies my withdrawal of suspicion on SGR.

[Honest Abel]

I'm still willing to vote PM. I also want to hear more from SGR in particular and give izak a chance to contribute.

I'm not thrilled with Kcd's reasoning for voting PM. Of all the scummy shit PM has said in this game, it's the case on NS that everyone agreed with that makes him scummy? And after Kcd had a town read on PM for most of the game? Typical precipitous Kcd.

[Honest Abel]

All right, as stated before, I'm down with that. I'm pretty convinced we're not going to get much else out of him.

VOTE: SGRaaize

[Honest Abel]

Is that it? That was a hammer, correct? I was off making dinner. If that means the game is over, I am disappointed to tell you that I am indeed town. Which makes scum projectmatt and izak, I suppose?

[Honest Abel]

The don_johnson who was killed a couple nights ago? Probably not.

[Honest Abel]

Process of elimination, it must be izak. PM claimed scum, and Kcd is sticking to town, yeah?

[Honest Abel]

There cannot have been only two scum, since that would require all 7 Ts. There was a cop and a roleblocker, so there couldn't have been only two scum.

[Honest Abel]

That's not possible. Why are you playing games?

[Honest Abel]

You played well regardless, jason.

I'm okay with releasing the QuickTopic. projectmatt can approve and link it if he wants.

[Honest Abel]

Wow, clutch roleblock on N3 matt. High five.

[Honest Abel]

Also, in anticipation of criticism, I'm going to restate/maintain that I flirted with the idea of quitting the game because it wasn't a good environment in which to ask questions as a new player (no fault to anyone here, honestly). I will be sticking to the newbie queue for my next few games for that and other reasons.

[Honest Abel]

PM, I was going out of my mind yesterday. I saw that Kcd voted, so I was refreshing the game every couple minutes to see when you were online. After only like 5 minutes, I saw you online, so I voted SGR. THen you just disappeared 5 minutes later. I was so pissed.

Next time, go for the easy win please.

[Honest Abel]

I'm lucky that I made a case on SGR earlier, because I would have voted for him regardless, seeing you online. Don't hang your buddy out to dry like that.

[Honest Abel]

Also, don't claim scum before the game is officially over. There could have been a SK or Vig left, which would have meant there was a 50/50 chance that the game would end in a draw if we killed the wrong person at night.

[Honest Abel]

I was afraid of that happening considering we knew that there was a power role left somewhere. Luckily, izak was only doc.

[Honest Abel]

Not true. I could see a hesitant vig not killing until the end. "Pretty much confirmed" isn't definitive enough.

[Honest Abel]

Oh, yeah, you're right actually. Adding in the roleblock, we still would have definitely won. No harm, then. Just play it safe, though.

[Honest Abel]

matt, you got yourself out of suspicion pretty well, too. Good player.

I'm disappointed that I wasn't ever forced to explain my case on projectmatt. I was putting it off as long as possible. I guess I could have done it and made a good case, but I wouldn't have done it on my own, and someone considering that should have made the connection there.

My first night, I considered killing Kcd, but I'm glad I didn't. It's good to leave volatile/precipitous voters like him in the game if you want an easy last day.

[Honest Abel]

I won Newbie 1092 the same way, by leaving Sloth alive because I knew he was a volatile voter.

My kills in this game and in that game were very straightforward. I've gone after the people who suspect me the most or are most likely to push for a case on me. I really don't believe in reverse psychology. Getting rid of the direct threat is much more important to the overall psyche of the town. That said, I'm probably going to have to change up my strategy next time I'm scum if I don't want an easy read of my meta.

[Honest Abel]

Yeah, seriously. I thought it was curtains when PM decided not to hammer there. I don't understand why Kcd would vote SGR again. We really should have lost because of that.

This was a pretty bad town performance... the game was rather dull most of the time, NS and DCJ were awful, and SGR/izak didn't really do anything. I don't really like Kcd's play style, but at least he tried. Amor was easily town MVP but could have been even better if he kept up with the discussion more. don_johnson kicked in late with some good deduction but was killed immediately, so no real discredit to him there.

[Honest Abel]

I wanted to kill Muffin because he seemed to be the strongest combination of smart and active. He didn't really get a chance either, no discredit to him.

[Honest Abel]

I honestly don't know why everyone stopped suspecting projectmatt. I could see his scumminess in the beginning and it never trailed off for me. Probably because i knew he was scum, but still... what was the turning point? Anyone?

[Honest Abel]

You were one guy leading the game around. There should have been other townies trying to lead it, too. You did what you could, I suppose.

[Honest Abel]

Biggest lesson I learned in the game was never play with DCJ.

[Honest Abel]

I'll believe you.

[Honest Abel]

Too smart for your own good, perhaps?

I've always taken that level of certainty about scum as a scumtell, especially when their suspected player turns out to be scum. I actually believe that, I wasn't just saying it throughout the game as a lie. Which is why I accused SGR of doing the same thing with donjosh. I guess it's not a great scumtell unless you are keen to distinguish true certainty from a display of overconfidence.

[Honest Abel]

Nobody knows what they are. Edit the wiki page on them.