Open 315 - Quack Mafia (Game Over)

[popsofctown]

I protected the person below me on the player list, which would be Empking if I'm not mistaken. You guys all fail for not doing the same, we were supposed to all realize in parallel that double protects provide less information, and then use a method that would disperse our protects evenly, which most intuitively would be based on the english convention of reading left to right, top to bottom.

ragerage.


I agree with Empking that the random people are more suspicious. When I read the setup, I figure random was probably a reasonable N0 action. After I got my doctor pm and thought about it I realized there's many better alternatives.

[popsofctown]

The complete set of doctor's claim would do a lot to direct the town spotlight intelligently, so I didn't make my first post terribly full of reads and such. I can't post on the weekends usually so yeah, doin the best i can.


I've played with DonJosh being quite thick like this in another game, which he flaked out of, and iirc his slot flipped town. For most players I'd want to hang him like EmpKing does, but, I want to hold off on it. Although the trap thing IS bad, it reeks of scum paranoia. But many newbies have an unhealthy survival motive even as town, just from natural human self-centeredness, so that could be where it's coming from.

I'm going to

vote itszak

, because I'm not aware of any such excuse for him. He's really reachy in his attacks on Empking, a lot of it is stuff where it would be agree-to-disagree if anything, not stuff that should seem scummy.

His post about waking up the lurkers was pretty survivalist too, he seems to want to keep himself out of a circle of three possible lynch targets who are in the spotlight, even though he believes empking to be scum. A scum lynch accomplishes more good than the damage caused by a town lynch, so itszak should be quite content with the current spotlight, and want the lurkers to post content just because it's a good thing in general.

[popsofctown]

I agree with Empking that the random people are more suspicious. When I read the setup, I figure random was probably a reasonable N0 action. After I got my doctor pm and thought about it I realized there's many better alternatives.

For example? Consider that every alternative that makes assumptions about the protection choices of other players is bound to fail because we don’t know each other’s thoughts. (well, at least I don’t)
My own approach was: I don’t know what kind of doctor I am and I can’t do anything about it so I choose anyone and hope that it becomes clear what my sanity is. I’m not afraid of being a quack at all: as soon as I know that I’m a quack, I become a town-only vigilante and stop sending night choices; as soon as I know that I’m a sane doctor, I serve as such. I just hope that the path to the knowledge of my sanity won’t be too long.

If you can't even make guesses about other people's thought, you are a quite a dim individual.

If the mod said he asked a random townie what he figured nine plus six is and told you you could earn a day one double lynch if you guessed his answer, would you immediately give up on reading his mind and submit a random number? Apparently.

The most information is gained from each player protecting exactly one person. The fewer double protects, really, the better. There's an x% chance some or all of the other players are intelligent enough to come to this conclusion. x is rather disappointingly small, but it's unarguably greater than zero. Even if it turns out no one else successfully shares your conclusion, that would render whatever method you develop arbitrary, much like random selection is arbitrary. So the worst case scenario is the same as the best, average, and worst case scenario you came up with.

Once you know that you and a possible other player each want to avoid picking the same person, you can try to develop a method in which you choices uniquely correspond to you. The playerlist sticks out as a place where we are somehow unique from eachother, because it is ordered. Humans naturally pick out things closer to them rather than far, so you should pick a name close to your name. Sathoris got about this far. Good job, blew away most of the competition.

That creates two cantidates. Next you should try to think of what you have in common with the other players. Do you both live in a culture in which doctors tend to lie underneath people and operate on them? No. Darn. Maybe you all speak english, and english arbitrarily has selected down as a direction of progress? Oh my god, yes, that happens to be true.

I suppose with this group, I should throw in a y% chance that everyone knows that english is read left to right, top to bottom. And that's not a jab at Sathoris, but a frustration with the number of townie random submissions, and the thickheadedness of people who don't get what they did wrong even after it is explained to them.

[popsofctown]

If you can't even make guesses about other people's thought, you are a quite a dim individual.

Misrep! I was talking about knowledge, you’re talking about guessing. Of course I can guess, there is no need to get insulting here. The problem is: while guessing is the best you can do, knowledge is what you ideally need. I can’t

know

beforehand which approach the other players will use (if they think about it at all) and guessing has the inherent problem that there’s a chance of guessing wrong. You guessed that we’d all protect the successor in the list – and you were wrong. I give you credit for thinking of such an approach and I will remember it next time I’ll be in this situation. For this game though, your guess has proven to be just as bad as everyone else’s.

It's not a misrep, I was talking about something different from knowledge, and that's the point. You

are

capable of guessing, and you're

not

a dim individual. I wouldn't actually call someone dim on mafiascum, that'd be rather mean.

If the mod said he asked a random townie what he figured nine plus six is and told you you could earn a day one double lynch if you guessed his answer, would you immediately give up on reading his mind and submit a random number?

You’re confusing factual knowledge (mathematics in this case, everyone able to calculate can reproduce the result) with guessing. Humans aren’t deterministic machines.

You're confusing this setup with something that's not a mathematics problem. If a mathematics professor handed you this setup and asked what behavior would maximize the doctors' chance of winning N0 (if you could control them all, they don't have human discussion, and they all continue to optimize protects for the rest of the game), he could give you an F for saying it doesn't matter, or for everyone protecting one person, or what have you. If you appealed the grade, he could easily produce a mathematical proof that his solution was correct.

Once you know that you and a possible other player each want to avoid picking the same person, you can try to develop a method in which you choices uniquely correspond to you. The playerlist sticks out as a place where we are somehow unique from eachother, because it is ordered. Humans naturally pick out things closer to them rather than far, so you should pick a name close to your name. Sathoris got about this far. Good job, blew away most of the competition.

Thank you for explaining the train of thought that lead you to your approach of choosing (although I dislike that you seem to be treating me like a child). The only thing that bothers me about this is that “Humans naturally pick out things closer to them rather than far” because this is WIFOM. Just one example: when I download files from a web server that allows me to choose from a list of mirror servers, I usually choose

neither

the first

nor

the last, which I think are obvious choices for most people, but one of the middle ones, usually (but also not always) in the bottom part of the list.

Why are you agreeing with me, then complaining about it? "I choose neither the first, nor the last, which I think are obvious choices for most people". You are totally aware of the natural human tendency here to pick the top of the list, you just pick differently because of your own tendencies. You're basically admitting if your goal was to download from the same mirror as most of your peers, you'd choose the first (or at least the last), and that's the point here. Are you mad I didn't use a less-than-all qualifier? Fine, "Most humans naturally pick out things closer to them rather than far, so you should pick a name close to your name". It stands oh so corrected.

and the thickheadedness of people who don't get what they did wrong even after it is explained to them.

This has nothing to do with thickheadedness, this has to do with (another) nature of humans: we’re not always predictable. And I even kind of like that.

You used a poor unpredictable strategy so later you could complain that you can't do any better because everyone else will use a poor, unpredictable strategy. I love you let's hydra sometime.

For this game though, your guess has proven to be just as bad as everyone else’s.

ORLY? My guess was that I would be the only one to pick the person below me. Since everyone else adopted a random strategy, I had average random chance of picking a unique person. Had I adopted any different strategy, including yours, I would have had an average random chance of picking a unique person. My strategy could not be improved, I could call it the very best available to me or a tie thereof.

Your guess was that no one else would pick a shot in the dark player that you picked at random. You had an average random chance of success. However, had you adopted a cooperative strategy, you would have improved your chance of success slightly, because I was using the cooperative strategy. You didn't pick the best strategy available to you.

I would not agree to the statement that my guess was "just as bad as everyone else's". You can't jump in my rowboat, row backwards, and say we're both bad rowers because my rowing direction doesn't match yours and your rowing direction doesn't match mine, because you're not even trying to cooperate.

I'm rarely abrasive, condescending, and extremely displeasant like I know I am ITT right now. There are very few times I am like that, but it's usually when I'm factually right about something but someone else won't concede so. It happens when a MtG judge rules against me incorrectly, when I go home and look a test and see it was marked unfairly, or when I present someone mathematical evidence of why the item they bought in League is incorrect and they still buy it. (Fortunately, in all those cut and dry cases the items get changed in a patch so I don't have to rage much anymore).

I'm actually a decent person.

[popsofctown]

Oh wow I just noticed you're literally the other Empking protector. That's straight up poetic.

[popsofctown]

1. IceGuy quack,doc,scum
2. jilynne1991 quack,doc,scum
3. zMuffinMan quack,doc,scum
4. glowball quack,doc,scum
5. DonJosh quack,doc,scum
6. izakthegoomba quack,doc,scum
7. Sathoris quack,doc,scum
8. Uncle Pain quack,doc,scum
9. PopsofCtown quack,doc,scum
10. Empking quack,doc,scum
11. forest_air : quack
12. LittleGrey quack,doc,scum
For copypasta purposes.

[popsofctown]

I drew a picture of the claims, but can't upload it because of ubuntu barriers. I ran arrows from one person to the target.


Since we have found a quack already, I think I agree with the notion quack hunting is the way to go. Anyone could be a quack because of the dead people's unknown protects, but some are more likely than others. Iceguy, Glowball, Pops, Empking, Unclepain, and DonJosh protected someone who had already been protected once, so they could be quacks that got helped out, they are the most likely quacks.

Quack hunting can go further though. If you have a townread in any of the pairings, then the other person in that pairing becomes a likely quack/scum, which is a good lynch no matter what, imo, gold and silver medals. So if one thinks Uncle Pain is town, I'm more likely to be a quack (because uncle pain isn't lying scum who didn't keep me from pumping Empking full of mushroom juice).

@unclepain: night action

[popsofctown]

Don Josh lynch looks like a goodway to find a quack. Empking lynch actually produces strictly superior info, but I think empking is town, which implies Donjosh is a quack or scum.

unvote, vote donjosh

[popsofctown]

I'm pretty sure I'm influenced by the magikarp tho

[popsofctown]

weak cops cause a townie death a minority of the time. Quacks cause a townie death a majority of the time. Poor analogy. Unconfirmed quacks are of little use.

[popsofctown]

^^I came to that conclusion a while back. The two people who single protected eachother, sathoris and whoever it was, should protect forest_air together, giving him a strong chance of survival.

[popsofctown]

Scum and Quacks have a 100% chance of their protection failing. And both of you might be either.

[popsofctown]

Why don't we just have Sathoris and izak protect forest air? Forest air can't die unless both sathoris and izak are a combination of quackery and scumbaggery. That's a treasure trove of information, I don't see a need to consume a third night action.

As for the other night actions, I'm not convinced that our behavior be so planned. Scum can nightkill someone to minimize the information we gain.

I'm not sure the quack should kill people. The quack isn't a weak cop, the quack is a weak vig. Vigs are a role that kill slightly better than random lynching because they know that they themselves are not scum. Vigs are pretty much a double lynch.

This vig fails if he hits scum. Stop looking at the newfound knowledge as a "plus", a successful vig would be able to tell you the alignment of the target by examining the corpse.

Since the vig fails if he hits scum, that means that every time our vig's double-lynch function fails, we have to consume one of our actual lynches to finish his work.

Every time our flawed vig hits town, we get a double lynch. Although killiing a townie is the worst case scenario, that's the scenario where the flawed vig exactly matches the behavior of a real vig. And he kills someone we probably would have killed anyway, so he aids progress.

Every time our flawed vig hits scum, he fails to actually accomplish anything. He hits the same person we were going to lynch.

The scenarios are:
Town, Town, +2 lynches.
Town, Scum, in some order, +1 lynches
Scum, Scum, he didn't actually really do anything.

Ok so this post has sort of been thinking out loud and it has made quacks look better than I expected to. But..
The thing is that the killing accelerates the game. That means less information from the tangled web of protects. In the scenarios where the quack is useful he accelerates the game too. We have a pretty strong chance of preventing scum nightkills, which would let us control most of the deaths in the town anyway, with no need for a crap-mode vig. And that chance of preventing scum nightkills is improved if we don't mark a certain player as off-limits to protects for the night because the quack is going to kill that player. I think we should have unplanned night actions, a non-acting quack, and try to accumulate more charts.

[popsofctown]

Look.

When the town picks someone as scummy, we lynch them. That person dies, no matter what. We find out their alignment after they die.

When town picks someone for the quack to go after, they are quacked. That person dies, most of the time, but doesn't in a few scenarios where we would like for them to. We find out their alignment after the quacking.


It's a slightly weaker lynch really. In most setups I would gleefully use it, but the point I'm trying to make about the setup is that, it has so much information that we would almost consider no-lynching. There's not quite enough information to justify it, but almost. This setup is much like Dethy, which no lynched all the time.

Since quack is a weaker lynch, it's is somewhat easier to vote no lynch on that lynch with inferior mechanics. I personally feel like the setup has too little information for no lynching, but too much information for quacklynching.

That's not a particularly broad piece of territory in between real lynch and slightly-gimped-lynch, so it is pretty expected and acceptable that people will disagree with that opinion.

[popsofctown]

as for how many people protect forest_air, this is why it should be two. Forest only dies if neither goomba nor sathoris are doctors. There is only two ways that can happen, one or both of them are scum, or both of them are quacks. But the chances of both of them being quacks is miniscule. The two dead doctors would have had to have protected each of them from the other's quackery. The probability of this, given no other information about how those two made their decision, is 1/121. So we can stomach a small chance of blowing the game on the spot and just assume one or both are scum. So forest's death would directly lead to a scum lynch in one or two tries. We'd get redhanded scum or a living forest, one of the two. Might as well use the other protects for other purposes. If anything, the other protects would only minimize the possible info.

[popsofctown]

I also think the odds are twice what pops claims.

Are you saying that the odds they are both quacks is 2%???

Yeah you want to lynch DonJosh even though you think me/iceguy/jily are scum with a possible izak somewhere in there. It makes perfect sense. The only thing I will agree is that izak and jily are possible scum- moreso leaning izak and you. Although I have a proposition....

Bedge your hets.

I don't have time to get waist deep in the optimal night action analysis, but it has occured to me that assigning any townie to protect a particular person, alone, make that person unkillable. Not unkillable, but uninfluencable. If the physician is a doctor, nothing the scum can do can kill that person, if that acting player is a quack, nothing the scum can do can save that player. We could funnel the scum into shooting certain people we want them to shoot that way.

[popsofctown]

how's it funneled? glowball and iceguy can still be shot. if you're so good at scumhunting those are both for-sure scum, we don't need night actions.

[popsofctown]

DonJosh flips scum or quack:
IceGuy
jilynne1991
glowball
izakthegoomba
Sathoris
Uncle Pain
PopsofCtown
Empking
forest_air


forest protects jilynne.
Jilynne protects glowball.
Sathoris protects forest_air.
Itszak protects forest_air
popsofctown protects empking
Uncle Pain protects empking
glowball protects popsofctown
Iceguy protects popsofctown
Empking protects Unclepain

results:
forest_air: conf townie, survives most of the time, dies something around a quarter of the time but yields good information whenever he does die. (Sathoris and zak contains 1 scum)
Jilynne: Either dies, or becomes confirmed scum
glowball: If Jilynne is a quack, glowball also either dies, or becomes confirmed scum. Since we are guaranteed instant feedback on whether jilynne is good at medicine or not, this the exact same principle as using forest_air
Sathoris: Is forced to be a major NK cantidate. This is good because if Sathoris flips quack, he has already investigated itszak with decent accuracy.
Itszak: is forced to be a major NK cantidate. This is good because if Itszak flips quack, he has already investigated Sathoris with decent accuracy.
popsofctown: safely protected by the joint efforts of glowball and iceguy. If he dies, something stinks, and it can be sniffed out.
Uncle Pain: safely protected by Empking's confirmed doctorness.
glowball: possibly investigated, a bad nightkill target all around
Iceguy: oops
Empking: double protected.

finish tis lader

[popsofctown]

my version isn't finished, Iceguy can still get shot, and his death isn't super useful.

Better:

If empking is doc plan 2.0

Empking protects forest_air
Forest air protects jill
Jill protects glowball.
Sathoris protects Uncle pain
Itszak protects Empking
popsofctown protects IceGuy
IceGuy protects popsofctown
glowball protects Empking
Uncle Pain protects popsofctown

[popsofctown]

that's still probably not a final draft.

I like the Empking->forest->jil->glowball chain, I think it should stay.

As for the rest, I have Sathoris protecting Uncle Pain. The single protection is meant to have investigative function, if Sathoris kills Uncle pain, but didn't have a similar painful impact on itszak, it speaks poorly of zak. As I covered earlier, even a single protect makes scum unable to target someone.

Itszak helps glowball protect empking, in this scenario empking really needs to survive.

Ice Guy and Uncle pain both protect popsofctown. A single protect is adequate on me, but I didn't really know what else to do with those protects. Uncle pain and I are in mostly symmetrical situations, so you can use me as a guinea pig instead from a neutral point of view, but I'm gonna let power of suggestion run in my favor since I know I'm town.

2.0 funnels kills to sathoris or its zak. In addition, sathoris single protects another player, so a nightkilled, quack sathoris has two investigations for us to follow.

I think it could be improved if we change it so zak is doing the same sort of thing

[popsofctown]

oh. Itszak protects iceguy, i protect empking. That's a simple swap

[popsofctown]

once we get empdoc figured out we can move on to joshdoc scenario

[popsofctown]

whatabout goomba? that makes it tougher for me to relapse.

[popsofctown]

onlyifDonJosh-scum or DonJosh-quack, 3.0

Empking protects forest_air
Forest air protects jill
Jill protects glowball.
Sathoris protects Uncle pain
Izak protects Iceguy
popsofctown protects Empking
IceGuy protects popsofctown
glowball protects Empking
Uncle Pain protects popsofctown

@whoever: I picked glowball because we have relatively little information about her alignment from night actions and her play seems somewhat scummy to me.

DonJoshDoc plan 3.0:

After a moment, I realized that although this scenario gives us less manpower, because empking is a doubtful doc, we also get less responsibility: maybe we don't really need to protect empking so much now.

forest->jill
jill-> goomba
empking->Sathoris
Sathoris->popsofctown
goomba->uncle pain
popsofctown->forest
uncle pain-> goomba
glowball->Sathoris
iceguy->forest

I had to do a lot of swapping around this one is tougher.

This looks ok.
Forest is looked after by popsofctown and iceguy. originally it was pops and uncle pain, but i realized it's better to re-pair people because we might figure out a new double quack/scum pairing, which is very useful info.
jill is investigated by forest.
Sathoris the probdoc is double covered, don's death means we need to grab onto our docs and hold tight.
goomba gets the same treatment.
popsofctown and unclepain are safe from influence because they are singly protected by each of the probdocs. If either of them die, the probdoc gets to scratch his head and wonder why treating his patients with jungle leeches worked so well night zero and jump to some conclusions.
That makes six people that can't be influenced by scum kills. The scum remain welcome to kill glowball, Iceguy, or Empking. empking looks a lot sketchier with a donjosh doc flip, and glowball and iceguy both seem like weak players to me that don't particularly need to live.
It's also bettter to leave an entire protection group open to the scum rather than to split across them, because if there's scum anywhere in that particular pool, shooting anywhere in the pool tells us some info about it.

[popsofctown]

glowball: I don't know everything. If I sound arrogant and what-I-say-goesish, it's because not many people are taking initiative on the matter, and the others that are have been generally thumbs-upping my plans so I figure what I say will probably end up going..

The most important thing is that everyone sticks to whatever plan the majority (or plurality) like most. The second most important thing is that that plan is good. We can't afford for anyone to disobey an agreedupon plan, because if that person dies they can never tell us they ditched the plan, so we'll have to assume they protected who they said and it could lead directly into a mislynch.

You and iceguy can switch targets if it makes you happier

[popsofctown]

Ugh. I could draw up a jillynne lynch plan. But that would be so much woooooooork.


DonJosh come post and act scummy or at least townie so I can be motivated one way or the other.

[popsofctown]

Wait, jill didn't participate in a pairing. Yeah.. we're probably better off lynching Don Josh. I don't think the scumminess differential is big enough for jillynne to be a better lynch. Both DonJosh and jilynne can be easily marked for "lynch before lylo", so it's best if we order it in such a way that Empking gets some feedback on his sanity.

[popsofctown]

onlyifDonJosh-scum or DonJosh-quack, 4.0
Empking protects forest_air
Forest air protects jill
Jill protects glowball.
Sathoris protects Uncle pain
Izak protects Iceguy
popsofctown protects Empking
IceGuy protects popsofctown
glowball protects Empking
Uncle Pain protects popsofctown

DonJosh is Doc:

forest->jill
jill-> goomba
empking->Sathoris
Sathoris->popsofctown
goomba->uncle pain
popsofctown->forest
uncle pain-> goomba
glowball->forest
iceguy->Sathoris

[popsofctown]

the only difference was the concession to glowball, little difference.

[popsofctown]

unvote

, that put DonJosh at L-1. I'm not certain our replacement is aware that he's playing a Dethy and will know to skim through the thread for a procedure, so I don't want night falling yet until we hear from him.

And we can allow a little time for people to disagree with the plan so we're certain I have the authority of a plurality.

[popsofctown]

vote: Don Josh

[popsofctown]

I posted on Friday. Now it's monday. Lots of people skip weekends, I like to. I wanted to skip today but it'd be the third so I thought I'd post.


DonJosh however is a flake. He hasn't posted in five days, and this is reminiscent of the last game I played with him in it, he flaked.



Someone just hammer let's get on with life.

aside:

soooooooo....

I guess we've chosen awkward pause. I would have gone with touch my glittery ball, or even the mouth organ but this is cool too.

This sounds like some perverted metaphor I'm not old enough to understand.

All of my prods are up to date: DonJosh was V/LA until Sunday.

[popsofctown]

Er.. It's a combination of you seeming scummy, and helping the town because of your position in the protection web. Your enthusiasm is somewhat correctly placed I guess..

[popsofctown]

onlyifDonJosh-scum or DonJosh-quack, 4.0
Empking protects forest_air
Forest air protects jill
Jill protects glowball.
Sathoris protects Uncle pain
Izak protects Iceguy
popsofctown protects Empking
IceGuy protects popsofctown
glowball protects Empking
Uncle Pain protects popsofctown

DonJosh is Doc:

forest->jill
jill-> goomba
empking->Sathoris
Sathoris->popsofctown
goomba->uncle pain
popsofctown->forest
uncle pain-> goomba
glowball->forest
iceguy->Sathoris

[popsofctown]

This_broken_computer_lacks_spaces.

Don't_have_tons_of_time_for_this,_but_be_sure_to_compare_N0_with_n1.__And_remember_quacks_dont_hurt_scumz.


Izak_is_almost_conf_scum.__he_should_have_been_the_nightkill.
thinkaboutit

[popsofctown]

apocalyptika is confirmed town

[popsofctown]

Code: Select all

IceGuy        → jilynne1991
jilynne1991   → Uncle Pain
glowball      → jilynne1991
DonJosh       → PopsofCtown
izakthegoomba → Sathoris
Sathoris      → izakthegoomba
Uncle Pain    → Empking
PopsofCtown   → Empking
Empking       → PopsofCtown
forest_air    → ???

onlyifDonJosh-scum or
DonJosh is Doc:

forest->jill
jill-> goomba
empking->Sathoris
Sathoris->popsofctown
goomba->uncle pain
popsofctown->forest
uncle pain-> goomba
glowball->forest
iceguy->Sathoris

[popsofctown]

If Iceguy is a quack, that means Sathoris is scum.
If popsofctown is a quack, glowball is a town doctor, and so is Uncle Pain.
If Sathoris is a quack, popsofctown is scum. (for the sake of completeness. From my point of view, Sathoris is a doctor or scum)
If goomba is a quack, Sathoris is probscum, and uncle pain is scum.
If glowball is a quack, we know nothing.
If Uncle Pain is a quack, goomba is scum, and popsofctown is confirmed town doc.
Apokalyptik Forest is a quack.
jillyn is a scum.
That's some fyi on all the players

[popsofctown]

Izak I must have been spacing when I said you should have been the kill. Empking was pretty much best kill.

It looks like Iceguy should single protect someone for a win-win. If he turns out to be a quack, Sathoris is confirmed scum. Otherwise, Iceguy just protects effectively. If we choose to do this, though, Iceguy needs to be protected from harm because he will have yielded all the info he can, really.

If I'm a quack we can discover two conftownies. That may or may not be worth me testing my sanity out. (if I did test it out, I would need to do so on neither glowball nor Uncle Pain.)

Sathoris-quack proves me to be scum. From my PoV that's not worth consuming night actions to investigate. From everyone else's PoV, that's at least not as interesting to explore as Iceguy's potential, since Sathoris quack is rendered unlikely by his night 1 behavior.

Goomba is in a similar situation to iceguy, but shares Sathoris's unlikelihood of being a quack. Iceguy actually has a nice chance of being a quack.

If glowball is a quack, ebwop, popsofctown is conftown. That's not particularly valuable info, though, so I see her as a prime NK target because a quackflipped glowball isn't very dangerous.

Uncle Pain is like Iceguy, but actually even better. Little to no mitigating reasons he can't be a quack, direct scum implication if he's discovered quack, and a confirmed innocent gets tossed in too. Uncle Pain single protecting forest seems worthwhile to me.
Ice guy can single protect a townishh person.

You guys can start thinking about plans.

This setup actually seems broken in favor of town, which is thumping down my motivation to do traditional daygame scumhunting. But that rot is important too and stuff, so if people have cases don't feel like no one wants to hear them because of nightgame discussion! Present. Ideally the daygame and nightgame go hand and hand. That was a success last night, when the scummy jilynne was confirmed scum.

[popsofctown]

Iceguy, glowball, goomba, sathoris, uncle pain, apokalyptic, popsofctown.

Iceguy shot.

glowball, goomba, sathoris, uncle pain, apokalyptic, popsofctown

popsofctown lynched, town

glowball, goomba, sathoris, unclepain, apokalyptic (night).

glowball shot

goomba, uncle pain, apokalyptic, sathorisscum

game over, scum win.


Looks like it's not safe to make that assumption there, UP.

[popsofctown]

Uncle Pain protect apokaylptic is spot on though. We can hammer out something nice.

How bout everyone unvotes since votes are not needed for diplomacy at all whatsoever when we have a confirmed scum? Then we can landslide vote when we confirm a plan.

[popsofctown]

ebwop, 336 should quote where you say, "if iceguy dies, sathoris is quack, etc". Sathoris could still be scum, and we don't have enough warm bodies to determine which is the case.

[popsofctown]

If glowball+iceguy scum: there is no third quack. Therefore this is not the pairing. (double check me.)
If iceguy +goomba scum: I see no conclusions about quack.
If iceguy + Sathoris scum: I see no conclusions.
If iceguy + Uncle scum: glowball or goomba(decreased chance) is the quack.
If iceguy + pops scum: Sathoris must be quack. (but Sathoris is unlikely quack)


glowball + goomba scum: uncle pain quack.
glowball + sath scum: Uncle pain or ice quack
glowball + Uncle scum: goomba quack
glowball + pops scum: Sathoris quack (N0 offchance)

goomba + sath scum: no info
goomba + uncle scum: glowball quack
goomba + pops scum: Sathoris quack

Sathoris + uncle pain scum: goomba or glowball quack
Sathoris + pops scum: Iceguy quack

uncle + pops scum: Sathoris or goomba quack, goomba less likely

[popsofctown]

I seem to be the least likely quack. I looked into it, if I am a quack 2/3 of {iceguy, Sathoris, Uncle pain} are scum. This is pretty useful because there's little reason I can't be a quack.

[popsofctown]

guys it might break the game harder if we no lynch >_>

<_<

[popsofctown]

lol wait i forgot we had a confirmed scum to execute.

nevermind.

Diving into the actions and excluding jill all the time frazzled my brain

[popsofctown]

I seem to be the least likely quack. I looked into it, if I am a quack 2/3 of {iceguy, Sathoris, Uncle pain} are scum. This is pretty useful because there's little reason I can't be a quack.

Wait... Uncle pain protected with me night zero, so it'd just be iceguy-sath scum. lemme double check

[popsofctown]

I just mistyped earlier, goomba was supposed to take uncle pain's place in the {} list.

[popsofctown]

unvotes plox

[popsofctown]

I'm not sure I like adopting a plan that is totally based on Uncle's PoV. We need something more neutral. I will come up with something later

[popsofctown]

Code: Select all

IceGuy        → jilynne1991
jilynne1991   → Uncle Pain
glowball      → jilynne1991
DonJosh       → PopsofCtown
izakthegoomba → Sathoris
Sathoris      → izakthegoomba
Uncle Pain    → Empking
PopsofCtown   → Empking
Empking       → PopsofCtown
forest_air    → ???

onlyifDonJosh-scum or
DonJosh is Doc:

forest->jill
jill-> goomba
empking->Sathoris
Sathoris->popsofctown
goomba->uncle pain
popsofctown->forest
uncle pain-> goomba
glowball->forest
iceguy->Sathoris

Uncle pain protects pops. (determines UP's sanity and goomba's alignment if quack)
Iceguy and apocalyptic protect glowball. I determined earlier that Iceguy and Glowball can't be scum together because there would be no quack. So if glowball lives, she lives because:
A. Iceguy saved her, meaning he is a doctor, meaning he is town.
B. She is scum, meaning that Iceguy is confirmed inno because he cannot be the other half of that pairing.

The nice thing about this is that it's less violent than several other investigative procedures and gives us more time in the hourglass.
Of course, if glowball dies, Sathoris is scum. That's useful too.
Pops protects apocalyptic, mostly to save him. If he dies, we get a group that is 2-of-these-3 scum so it's still ok.
zak and sathoris protect iceguy, because he might be confirmed inno.
glowball protects pops, determining her sanity.

So, my proposed plan is:
Uncle pain -> pops
Ice guy -> glowball
apokalyptic -> glowball
Pops -> iceguy
Sathoris -> apocalyptic
goomba ->apocalyptic
glowball -> pops

er, ebwop
I switched the tasks of apocalyptic and iceguy to put me on iceguy, since apocalyptic deserves the stronger protection

[popsofctown]

glowball's protect is a bit of a wild card, and doesn't need to be on me. You're right, a single protect line on me is probably a better idea. Glowball can protect you. Is that suitable?

[popsofctown]

Glowball could protect izak then. Neither sathoris nor izak seem super townie to me.
Uncle pain's dethy analyses have a genuine enthusiasm too them, Sathoris' thinner contributions seem more possibly contrived.

Sathoris your post started with "from a neutral perspective" and ended with "since we know im town and know goomba is scum". Nothing neutral about that. Aside from altering the protect on me to be a single line, you'll need a more substantial reason to veto the plan.

[popsofctown]

Code: Select all

IceGuy        → glowball
glowball      → popsofctown
izakthegoomba → Uncle Pain
Sathoris      → IceGuy
Uncle Pain    → Apokalyptika
popsofctown   → Sathoris
Apokalyptika  → izakthegoomba

Everyone is targeted, using two protection circles. Apokalyptika “tests” the scumminess of izakthegoomba; should he be town, then this also funnels the scum nightkill onto him. I protect Apokalyptika as suggested by popsofctown, closing the circle. IceGuy, the other interesting guy, protects glowball. From my POV, the results of Night 2 would then be:

what the heck how is this guy such a BB code ninja

• If IceGuy dies, then Sathoris is quack. In conclusion, izakthegoomba and popsofctown must be scum.
  I already explained how this conclusion is false, and the game could end before we can use this info
  
  
• If glowball dies, then IceGuy is a quack. In conclusion, Sathoris is scum and Uncle Pain is a doctor.
  agreed, also in mine
  
  
• If izakthegoomba dies, this implies Sathoris-scum, Uncle Pain must be a doctor and IceGuy a non-doctor.
  
• If Sathoris dies, then popsofctown is a quack. In conclusion, izakthegoomba and IceGuy are scum.
  If Sathoris dies, we find out redundant info about izak, you have izak getting investigated. This is also somewhat unappealing since I've determined that when I'm quack, 2/3 of {iceguy, sath, goomb} are scum, giving me rough odds of evident malpractice here.
  
  
• If Uncle Pain dies, then izakthegoomba is scum.
  You're investigating izak with apok. Redundant info again.
  
  
• If popsofctown dies, this implies that Uncle Pain is doctor.
  It implies glowball is quack or scum. I can't see the doctor implication here if I flip doctor.
  
  
• If Apokalyptika dies, then izakthegoomba must be scum.
  so.. much.. redundant.. information..

• If IceGuy does NOT die, then EITHER Sathoris is a doctor and IceGuy is town → izakthegoomba is scum, Uncle Pain is a quack; OR IceGuy is scum → popsofctown and glowball are town.
  from my PoV this one is nice, so I won't complain here
  
  
• If glowball does NOT die, then EITHER IceGuy is a doctor and glowball is town → izakthegoomba is scum; OR glowball is scum → popsofctown is a doctor.
  more izak info. don't see how this does much better than telling us nothing about already investigated izak other than that glowball may or may not be his partner.[/green]
  [*]If izakthegoomba does NOT die, then izakthegoomba is scum.

  This here is the investigation that should have stopped the copious amount of izak data collection.

  
  [*]If Sathoris does NOT die, then EITHER popsofctown is a doctor and Sathoris is town → izakthegoomba is scum, IceGuy is a non-quack; OR Sathoris is scum.

  izak is or isn't scum, sath may or may not be his partner again is all I see

  
  [*]If Uncle Pain does NOT die, then Sathoris is scum, IceGuy is a non-doctor.

  Couldn't follow this one. Sath can't just be a doc?

  
  [*]If popsofctown does NOT die, then EITHER glowball is a doctor and popsofctown is town; OR popsofctown is scum → glowball is a doctor, IceGuy is town.

  You forgot that if I'm scum you're a non-quack. Glowball is merely a non-quack, I don't see why she couldn't be my partner here. Anyway, this is some either/or information without any sanities or alignments for sure

  
  [*]If Apokalyptika does NOT die, then Uncle Pain is a doctor.

  Doctor/scum, isn't it? And if izak dies, you get the same conclusion. If he doesn't die, we'd have to lynch him so you'd have plenty more time to figure out how good you are at medicine. I dislike apok's risk of death here.

I find that this plan delivers us a lot more information than IceGuy’s suggestion. I especially don’t like about it that it reveals nothing about IceGuy, izakthegoomba and partly also Sathoris (from my POV, again).
As always, please correct me if you find any mistakes.

Green criticisms of Uncle Pain's plan here. I think mine delivers the same info with less confirmed innocent slaughter.

[popsofctown]

Wow, the color tag up there are fail. I'm going to repost.

Code: Select all

IceGuy        → glowball
glowball      → popsofctown
izakthegoomba → Uncle Pain
Sathoris      → IceGuy
Uncle Pain    → Apokalyptika
popsofctown   → Sathoris
Apokalyptika  → izakthegoomba

Everyone is targeted, using two protection circles. Apokalyptika “tests” the scumminess of izakthegoomba; should he be town, then this also funnels the scum nightkill onto him. I protect Apokalyptika as suggested by popsofctown, closing the circle. IceGuy, the other interesting guy, protects glowball. From my POV, the results of Night 2 would then be:

what the heck how is this guy such a BB code ninja

• If IceGuy dies, then Sathoris is quack. In conclusion, izakthegoomba and popsofctown must be scum.
  I already explained how this conclusion is false, and the game could end before we can use this info
  
  
• If glowball dies, then IceGuy is a quack. In conclusion, Sathoris is scum and Uncle Pain is a doctor.
  agreed, also in mine
  
  
• If izakthegoomba dies, this implies Sathoris-scum, Uncle Pain must be a doctor and IceGuy a non-doctor.
  May be true, but I don't follow how.
  
  
• If Sathoris dies, then popsofctown is a quack. In conclusion, izakthegoomba and IceGuy are scum.
  If Sathoris dies, we find out redundant info about izak, you have izak getting investigated. This is also somewhat unappealing since I've determined that when I'm quack, 2/3 of {iceguy, sath, goomb} are scum, giving me rough odds of evident malpractice here.
  
  
• If Uncle Pain dies, then izakthegoomba is scum.
  You're investigating izak with apok. Redundant info again.
  
  
• If popsofctown dies, this implies that Uncle Pain is doctor.
  It implies glowball is quack or scum. I can't see the doctor implication here if I flip doctor.
  
  
• If Apokalyptika dies, then izakthegoomba must be scum.
  so.. much.. redundant.. information..

• If IceGuy does NOT die, then EITHER Sathoris is a doctor and IceGuy is town → izakthegoomba is scum, Uncle Pain is a quack; OR IceGuy is scum → popsofctown and glowball are town.
  from my PoV this one is nice, so I won't complain here
  
  
• If glowball does NOT die, then EITHER IceGuy is a doctor and glowball is town → izakthegoomba is scum; OR glowball is scum → popsofctown is a doctor.
  more izak info. don't see how this does much better than telling us nothing about already investigated izak other than that glowball may or may not be his partner.
  
  
• If izakthegoomba does NOT die, then izakthegoomba is scum.
  This here is the investigation that should have stopped the copious amount of izak data collection.
  
  
• If Sathoris does NOT die, then EITHER popsofctown is a doctor and Sathoris is town → izakthegoomba is scum, IceGuy is a non-quack; OR Sathoris is scum.
  izak is or isn't scum, sath may or may not be his partner again is all I see
  
  
• If Uncle Pain does NOT die, then Sathoris is scum, IceGuy is a non-doctor.
  Couldn't follow this one. Sath can't just be a doc?
  
  
• If popsofctown does NOT die, then EITHER glowball is a doctor and popsofctown is town; OR popsofctown is scum → glowball is a doctor, IceGuy is town.
  You forgot that if I'm scum you're a non-quack. Glowball is merely a non-quack, I don't see why she couldn't be my partner here. Anyway, this is some either/or information without any sanities or alignments for sure
  
  
• If Apokalyptika does NOT die, then Uncle Pain is a doctor.
  Doctor/scum, isn't it? And if izak dies, you get the same conclusion. If he doesn't die, we'd have to lynch him so you'd have plenty more time to figure out how good you are at medicine. I dislike apok's risk of death here.

I find that this plan delivers us a lot more information than IceGuy’s suggestion. I especially don’t like about it that it reveals nothing about IceGuy, izakthegoomba and partly also Sathoris (from my POV, again).
As always, please correct me if you find any mistakes.

Green criticisms of Uncle Pain's plan here. I think mine delivers the same info with less confirmed innocent slaughter.

Mod edit: Corrected the color tag and changed the color from green to blue. Please avoid using green in the future.

[popsofctown]

still fail. there's on comment at the end in black, y'all can hunt for it I guess.

[popsofctown]

how come every time i try to pick the most arbitrary color i can think of it happens to be the mod's color. That's the third time in a row. argfarggarg

[popsofctown]

it's_a_lot_of_clicks

[popsofctown]

Simple. When we were still slightly sumhunting I said Jilynne and Glowball+Iceguy are likely the mafia. Or Glowball/Iceguy with Izak. Since then Iceguy has been confirmed doc from my PoV so that leaves you with Glowball. Uncle is going to be confirmed Quack when he kills Apok tonight. Pops is still uncertain, but I've had a town read on him from the beginning. Though his new plan has me rethinking that. Either way Uncle's plan can shed light on that.

And why the sudden suprise? I've been saying this from D1.

I would vote for you if this setup wasn't so analysis-orientated.

You'd rather vote for me than confscum? slipslip

I've forgotten there's a confscum in the game earlier today, so I don't see this as a scumslip.

Iceguy isn't confirmed town from your PoV, but he could be your partner. slipslip?

[popsofctown]

I made purple comments in the spoilers

I’m sorry but you criticised my incorrect conclusions from #334, the updated ones are in #350. Also, you’re arguing from your own PoV which obviously collides with my PoV. So to make things comparable, I generalized the statements that one can derive from both plans (my one and yours from #355 with the change from #359):

Spoiler: neutral conclusions from Uncle Pain’s plan

• If IceGuy dies, then Sathoris is a non-doctor.
  
• If glowball dies, then IceGuy is a non-doctor. In conclusion, Sathoris must be scum and Uncle Pain a non-quack.
  
• If izakthegoomba dies, then Uncle Pain must be a non-quack.
  
• If Sathoris dies, then popsofctown is a non-doctor. In conclusion, IceGuy must be a doctor.
  +glowball is a nonquack+Uncle pain is a nonquack.
  
  
• If Uncle Pain dies, then izakthegoomba is a non-doctor. In conclusion, popsofctown must be a non-doctor.
  I don't follow this
  
  
• If popsofctown dies, then glowball is a non-doctor.
  furthermore if popsofctown dies and flips quack, glowball is scum.
  
  
• If Apokalyptika dies, then Uncle Pain is a non-doctor. In conclusion, IceGuy must be town.

Iceguy must be town if Uncle Pain is town,your PoV. (did you do both are lists from creator's point of view or spectator's?)

• If IceGuy survives, then EITHER Sathoris is a non-quack and IceGuy is town; OR IceGuy is scum → Sathoris is scum → WIN.
  
• If glowball survives, then EITHER IceGuy is a non-quack and glowball is town; OR glowball is scum → IceGuy is town.
  This is true.
  
  
• If izakthegoomba survives, then izakthegoomba is scum. In conclusion, IceGuy is town.
  How?
  
  
• If Sathoris survives, then EITHER popsofctown is a non-quack and Sathoris is town → IceGuy is a doctor; OR Sathoris is scum.
  
• If Uncle Pain survives, then EITHER izakthegoomba is a non-quack and Uncle Pain is town; OR Uncle Pain is scum → IceGuy is town.
  
• If popsofctown survives, then EITHER glowball is a non-quack and popsofctown is town; OR popsofctown is scum → IceGuy is town.
  
• If Apokalyptika survives, then Uncle Pain is a non-quack.

Spoiler: neutral conclusions from popsofctown’s plan

• If IceGuy dies, then popsofctown is a non-doctor.
  We also win the game. I've determined in an earlier post that when I am a quack, 2/3 of {Sathoris, izak, Iceguy} are scum. If Iceguy dies, I'll know Sath/izak is the scumteam.
  You'll know glowball is not a quack, because then I wouldn't be a quack, I'd be scum that shot Iceguy, so apok should be dead.. You'll know Ice isn't quack from his flip. You'll know Uncle pain isn't quack because pops didn't die. Sathoris won't have been shot, which will be suspicious. There will be six players in the game.
  
  The game is then breakable, even with for a spectator. We repeatedly nolynch and do goomba+Sath->glowball->UP->apok. I just chill, apok just chills. If apok dies, whichever of glowball or UP was assigned to protect him is scum with pops. gg. If glowball dies, goomba and Sath aren't really a doc/quack pair, so gg. If goomba and Sathscums shoot pops, he flips quack and gg.
  
  Apok generates a random number between 1 and 60, and at that point he protects Sathoris instead of taking no action. Unless the scum make a 1/60 guess correctly, apok will simply cause exactly 1 or 0 deaths. If his target dies, I'm scum. If his target doesn't die, he then can verify that I'm a quack and goomba and Sathoris are scum.
  
  There might be a cleaner way to break the game then that, if that ever happens I'd think more on it.
  
  
  
• If glowball dies, then IceGuy is a non-doctor → Sathoris is scum, Uncle Pain is a non-quack.
  
• If izakthegoomba dies, then glowball is a non-doctor.
  And I'm a nonquack
  
  
• If Sathoris dies, then nothing.
  If he flips quack I'm scum, and goomba is revealed as either definite doc or definite scum by apok's livelihood.
  
  
• If Uncle Pain dies, then nothing.
  I didn't realize you aren't covered. Glowball should protect you, funneling a kill to Sathoris or goomba, the prolific single protecters who scum don't want to flip quack
  
  
• If popsofctown dies, then Uncle Pain is a non-doctor → IceGuy is town.
  
• If Apokalyptika dies, then Sathoris and izakthegoomba are both non-doctors.

• If IceGuy survives, then EITHER popsofctown is a non-quack and IceGuy is town; OR IceGuy is scum → Sathoris is scum → WIN.
  
• If glowball survives, then EITHER IceGuy is a doctor and glowball is town; OR glowball is scum.
  
• If izakthegoomba survives, then EITHER glowball is a non-quack and izakthegoomba is town → Uncle Pain is a non-quack; OR izakthegoomba is scum → IceGuy is town.
  
• If Sathoris survives, then nothing.
  
• If Uncle Pain survives, then nothing.
  
• If popsofctown survives, then EITHER Uncle Pain is a non-quack and popsofctown is town; OR popsofctown is scum → IceGuy is town.
  
• If Apokalyptika survives, then EITHER Sathoris and izakthegoomba are both non-quacks; OR Sathoris/izakthegoomba is a doctor/quack team → IceGuy is a doctor.

Give me a moment or two to compare these two properly… at first glance, they both lead to a lot of redundancy, especially IceGuy’s role often revealed.
I still don’t feel confident in building such plans, I must admit. I don’t see through the mechanics yet… it’s still a lot trial-and-error.

dang, what a waste of time. I forgot you reworked them.
I tried to argue from spectator's PoV, none of my criticisms were intended to be based off of "I know pops is town so therefore:". However, my conclusion at the end about how much I like the plan is influenced by my point of view, I don't want time and energy wasted gathering information about me or Sathoris's sanity.

Ok, i stopped after developing that long insane contingency plan in there. Now my brain hurts, I'm gonna stop working things out.

I want uncle pain-> pops, iceguy->glowball, and pops->Iceguy. The other ones I really don't care about and don't see a strong case for. Could we accommodate those ones and do whatever you wish with the rest?
Uncle pain ->pops confirms UP's sanity to himself, which I like.
iceguy->glowball has explosive info as a side effect of the iceguy-glowball scum pairing being impossible.
As dramatic as it is, the long spiel I typed out works, so me protecting Iceguy will either rescue him, important when he might become conftown, or it wins the game instantly for the town.

[popsofctown]

Yes he is. Empking flipped Quack and he and Iceguy protected me. I know I'm a doctor so that makes Iceguy a doctor.

erg right

[popsofctown]

I want uncle pain-> pops, iceguy->glowball, and pops->Iceguy. The other ones I really don't care about and don't see a strong case for. Could we accommodate those ones and do whatever you wish with the rest?
Uncle pain ->pops confirms UP's sanity to himself, which I like.
iceguy->glowball has explosive info as a side effect of the iceguy-glowball scum pairing being impossible.
As dramatic as it is, the long spiel I typed out works, so me protecting Iceguy will either rescue him, important when he might become conftown, or it wins the game instantly for the town.

[popsofctown]

I only have 3 protects I care about and have a good case about them..

[popsofctown]

see 386

[popsofctown]

I did one of those too. But it's not popular as a whole and I've realized from a neutral perspective, I can't expect it to be, so I'm just pushing the points I feel strongly about. I actually don't even particularly care who apok investigates. Do that wisely though. İpod post, spellinf not guaranteed

[popsofctown]

Well its all about circles, my three requests can be used to form a loop

[popsofctown]

Ooooh, right, that Iceguy->glow thing doesn't work without Apok->glow tacked on, which is a tougher sell for me to make.

Iceguy->glow + Apok->glow either demonstrates you're quack/scum, good info, or confirms you to be town. Other methods of using Apok's investigate gather more information, but also kill more townies.

If Uncle Pain is a quack, I'm the only person who's guaranteed to die from an Uncle Pain quack. (That's because I would have to be a doctor that saved Empking N0). Uncle pain being a quack directly implies someone to be scum. (Izak I think it was? Something). So it would be good to find out UP is a quack, even if that kills me. If Uncle pain is a quack and protects someone else, they might not die because they are scum, but we would have no way of knowing that was going on.

If Uncle Pain is a doctor, protecting me is still useful because it will prove he is not a quack, allowing us to narrow down scenarios and find the last quack more quickly through process of elimination.

[popsofctown]

I'll restrict my interest just to
Uncle -> pops
and
pops -> Iceguy

[popsofctown]

looks good up

[popsofctown]

Mod: if all players in the game PM you saying she should not be replaced, would you cancel the replacement search?

Sathoris whines whenever someone suggests a plan that gathers increased info about him. It's extremely scummy.

[popsofctown]

If UP is a quack izak is scum. That's useful, isn't it?

[popsofctown]

I vote for the plan in post 404

[popsofctown]

Glowball, Sathoris is very likely scum, and that's WHY it's best for us to have you protecting him.

You protected scum N0, gathering no info about whether you're a quack. Then you protected town with me N1, leaving you pretty likely to be a quack, more so than most players in the game. However, since neither your N0 or N1 actions produce any information if you are a quack, it's not useful to find out you are a quack when you kill someone with a protect. The only way we would get use out of it would be for you to protect another person after we found out you were quack, but by then there would be too few players in the game for us to do stuff like that without losing the game.

For these reasons, it's best if the people who are more probably doctors are the people protecting the more probably town. You're protecting Sathoris so that if you are quack, you don't kill a townie and gain us 0 info from it. In the small (in your view, maybe more like 50/50 in mine) chance Sathoris is town, you'll keep scum from shooting him. If he is scum, we can use process of elimination to figure out the rest of us are not quacks, and then lynch Sathoris based on your protection tonight.

Can you go with post 404 for us glow?

[popsofctown]

glow, I don't know what you're on that makes you think you're a doctor. If I'm scum you're a doctor or scum with me, so I can't even follow your reasoning.

You protected scum N0. N1, you protected town with me. Since I protected town N0 and that town didn't die, I'm somewhat more likely to be a doctor than you are. So you are a pretty likely quack. (although everyone's odds are less than 50% of course)

[popsofctown]

post 404. Just agree to it.

[popsofctown]

404

someone quote it with the hammer.

Vote: jillyne

[popsofctown]

this doesn't work for me. I can't play. A dethy open with a mod error that isn't fully and clearly
described.

The resolution doesn't appear just, either at a glance.

If apok was just supposed to die N1, just give us a chance to replay planning for N1 and N1. Jillyne would still be lynched, no one would argue otherwise. Blocking quacks tonight and killing apok just gave scum a bonus Nk, if the error was a missed apok kill/quacking. If it wasn't, I need more info to play this game, it's an open.

[popsofctown]

We would have accepted the risk of that apok fumbled his night action and lynched jillyne.

I gtg. For the record, I'm replacing out if we get neither more info or a different resolution about this mod error.

I recommend the mod get some outside, neutral input before accepting any player suggestion. Besides game restart that's a pretty neutral thing.

[popsofctown]

Including the lack of exact disclosure of the mod error?

I'm not saying the solution is not the best available. All I'm saying is, I can't play under such conditions. Some things are hard to undo.

[popsofctown]

I don't think I want to join in on a restart of this game. Playing this as town was fun, but I'm not sure I'd enjoy playing mafia. At worst it's town sided, at best mafia has to play very smart to have regular chances of winning.