Open 326: Pick Your Poison (Ende des Speils!)

[Supreme Overlord]

VOTE: RoboThor
Hi Robo.

Mod, can I have a vote allocated to me in the votecount? Please and thankyou.

What I am saying is that RVS is still started to accomplish something- I don't need 20 pages of people dilly dallying just because they thought of funny jokes. Also, it allows for scum to slide by and change their votes with very little reasoning as well. My thoughts: Change you vote if you want, if you are town you shouldn't be worried anyway- but you should always be prepared to explain yourself because there are all sorts of different types of players. I don't like RVS to last FOREVER, but it's only been a few hours and my vote changed once.

My opinion of RVS is that people should start voting 'seriously' ASAP, even if it is for a flimsy reason. At least that way game-relevent converation will get going.

[Supreme Overlord]

Technically. thats what it is. They use flimsy ass reasons to serious vote, IE: they dislike some, they LIKE someone, someone is a terrible player in past games, someone is an AWESOME player in past games, their name sounds wrong. their avatar is funky, and so on. We just call it Random, because we don't want to call it "flimsy-ass excuse voting stage"

Not exactly what I meant, and not really that important; I'd call it three stages: flimsy/random, weak-but-relevent, then actual real/strong votes.

But I'm going to ask some that I feel are relevant.
1) What time zone are you in?
2) What is your experience playing Mafia (ie, how many games have you played, how long etc)?
3) How often do you post/How often do you expect to post?

1. AEST; GMT+10. It's 11:10am.
2. This will be my sixth game, and my first non-newbie. I started playing at the start of the year.
3. During the day on weekdays; whenever I get the chance and there's something to respond to.

I don't like thunderwielder's random questions. Not because they are random, but because they don't seem to give the town that much information on the other players. Scum often ask generic questions like these, because it makes it look like the player is contributing, when they aren't.

I think it's reasonable enough; there's not all that much being said right now, and it's convenient to know when might be a good time to check the thread.

Nobody Special, Auckmid, Supreme Overlord: any thoughts on the game thus far?

Some of the things saulres is saying seems to be forestalling accusations:

And then everyone will throw the "why are you playing the newbie card so much" at me.

It's kind of like if someone says 'you're playing the newbie card', he can react 'see, I knew you'd say that' and bruch it off.

I'm trying to learn how it works for future games, as no one else seems to go through the same grilling I do over how I play RVS.

A bit like 'leave me alone, I'm still learning' (which, know I think about it, does seem a bit like playing the newbie card).

Ahh see, if I hadn't made my comment about RVS, Saulres wouldn't feel the need to ask about appearing scummy, therefore you wouldn't have your main case right now. Everyone always calls my actions scummy, but I do WHAT I do, because it causes interaction! Even if it sticks me front and center for people's attention ,and therefore scrutiny, most of the time, The interaction between members is worth it! This is the crux of my playstyle, and thats why I am so overtly-aggressive about the LITTLE things early-on. It puts pressure on those causing the little things, causing them to make bigger things.

Eh, what you have to be able to balance is the risks of appearing scummy with the rewards of provoking interaction. Also, this looks like you're trying to take credit for the first 'real' vote. I doubt your post (which prompted saulres to vote in the first place) had a large effect on him questioning whether to change his vote later on.

I like the vote though, keep em comin!

Okay. UNVOTE: RoboThor, VOTE: Maruchan

[Supreme Overlord]

I WILL NOT BE READING WALLS.

While I appreciate that you may not like reading them, the fact of the matter is that some players will post walls, and there will be content in them. Refusing to read walls is anti-town.
UPDATE: OK, halfway down is acceptable. (Guess I'd better put this at the top) I usually post in chronological order, as I tend to go away from the internet for a while and come back later, catching up as I make my post.

Ahh see, if I hadn't made my comment about RVS, Saulres wouldn't feel the need to ask about appearing scummy, therefore you wouldn't have your main case right now. Everyone always calls my actions scummy, but I do WHAT I do, because it causes interaction! Even if it sticks me front and center for people's attention ,and therefore scrutiny, most of the time, The interaction between members is worth it! This is the crux of my playstyle, and thats why I am so overtly-aggressive about the LITTLE things early-on. It puts pressure on those causing the little things, causing them to make bigger things.

Eh, what you have to be able to balance is the risks of appearing scummy with the rewards of provoking interaction. Also, this looks like you're trying to take credit for the first 'real' vote. I doubt your post (which prompted saulres to vote in the first place) had a large effect on him questioning whether to change his vote later on.

No? I think thats EXACTLY why he "sarcastically" asked about appearing scummy later. I said something he did is a possible-scum-action, and so he is worried about appearing scum.

I suppose only saulres can say for sure. To me, it seemed like you have moved past questioning his lack of RV, and were more talking about RQS.

And no, I am not trying to take credit for the bandwaggon, whether its a BW on scum or town. I am just trying to show that my way of nitpicking every little post DOES bring interaction, and brings a lot of attention to me. Which if I was scum is a bad thing, so why would I so it? Iunno. Beats me.

Well, it's early-game attention, which isn't all that dangerous. And it's fairly easy to deflect by saying 'hey, it's just nitpicking that get's stuff done; it's okay'. (Which is kind of working on me, even). Plus you can then use this very argument to say 'it's a bad thing, so why would scum do it', but let's not get into that...

And I have to balance the risk of appearing scummy? Wait I thought we were upset with Saulres for caring about appearing scummy. So only scum have to care about appearing scummy.

We can't keep this double standards! Either we have to say that Saulres caring if he appears scummy is a SCUM tell, in which case my lack of caring is a null or town tell. OR we have to say that Maruchan's lack of caring how he appears is a null or scum tell, in which case Saulres' caring is a TOWN tell.

Pick one, you can't have it both ways. It can't be scummy to care while being scummy to not care.

What I mean is that it's detrimental to the town to have townies deliberately doing scummy things in order to stir up interactions. I'm not saying you were doing that specifically here, but I thought it was kind of close and worth warning about. Let scum do scummy things and draw attention to themselves in their own time.

It's not about caring about being seen as town or not (scum need to, town don't); it's about deliberately acting in a scummy and potentially confusing way.

The way I see it, everyone who's playing for their win condition, at least in this setup, should care about if they're going to cause their side to lose by being seen as anything other than town. So caring is a nulltell, at least for me. And so is not caring, because it doesn't say what side you're on -- it just says what kind of player you are. One which is a detriment to their side.

Another way of putting it is that town shouldn't go out of their way of their win condition (scumhunting) to appear town. Whereas scum have to appear town in order to acheive their win condition. (I hope I'm being clear here.)

I can try to defend myself fro mthe first vote, but the second vote was put on just because I said to keep them coming, and the third vote is an OMGUS.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I outlined my reason for voting you, then quoted your 'keep them coming' line as a joke before voting you. I won't make that mistake again.

I LOVE unnecessary walls. Because it's pretty freaking obvious that they ARE unnecessary, and that MEANS something. It tells us something about the poster. It gives us more of a chance to see flaws in arguments and contradictions.
I say: give me more walls.
If they are filled with content, we get closer to finding scum.
If they are filled with nothing meaningful, we get closer to finding scum, because townies should be always trying to contribute SOMETHING.

I second the sentiments in this post.


Maruchan, I'm not sure if someone else responded to this, but 'concision' in this context meant 'concise', as it saying as much as possible in as few words as possible.
I really don't like when someone asks for a definition, someone else gets upset that they asked, but no one actually bothers to answer.

[Supreme Overlord]

I'm town. Now start talking about those two words. Decide if you believe me.

Well, I think that saying 'I'm town' has just about 0 meaning. In fact, with so little information thus far, it's tricky to say if this is actually any better than what else we're talking about. Looks to me like your trying to say 'hey, look at me, I'm helping out', when really it's not adding much either.

Whether or not someone wants to spew questions, the conversation will start eventually. Probably in the wrong direction.

So I suppose you think we've gone in the wrong direction?

Quickly going over your ISO, your comments on saulres and Maruchan are fairly solid, but I don't like you trying to say that your choice of conversation is the only worthwhile one. So maybe I'd call you ever-so-slightly leaning town.


@saulres, are you still voting Maruchan because you think he's not playing to win?

@glowball, what do you think it will take for you to reevaluate your vote at this point?

@thunderweilder, you don't have a vote out at the moment; why don't you think glowball is worth voting, even after your case?

Just a heads-up, I won't be posting for just under 48 hours from now, and I generally won't be posting at all on weekends.

[Supreme Overlord]

-Supreme Overlord's Post 72 spends a long time explaining why saulres is scummy only to vote for Maruchan as a seeming joke. This is scummy in and of itself, because it's avoiding laying down a serious vote to be held accountable for, but this could also be a future associative tell if saulres or SO flips scum. (Consequently, Maruchan's next post is spot on.)

Sorry I didn't reply to this last week. I may not have made it clear enough, but in #72 I was saying that while saulres has done a couple of scummy things, I found Maruchan's intentional scummy actions to be more damaging. It also seemed to me like he was trying to take credit. The joke was just tacked on to the end which had the unfortunate effect of making the entire vote seem like a joke. I'll be sure to avoid that in future.

Supreme Overlord is trying, but in his first post he says people should vote for as serious a reason as possible as soon as possible and...votes us so he can say 'hi' to Robo. Seriously? He's in the scum pool now.

In my opinion, all the conversation at that point had been about RVX, so I decided to put in my view of it while participating. If there had been a reason that I thought (even weakly) was scummy, I would have voted for that.

Hmmm...Overlord comes in, lists three things he thinks saulres is doing that he thinks are scummy, and then votes Maru because Maru asked for it? Definitely staying in that scum pool - if he's scum Maru is obv. town. If he's scum saulres is possible buddy...weaker read though than the Maru one.

If you ignore the part about Maruchan 'asking for it', do you think my reason was good enough at that point in the game?


I'm going to have another read over and reevaluate my vote.

[Supreme Overlord]

@saulres, are you still voting Maruchan because you think he's not playing to win?

I still want an answer to this, saulres.

Amrun
Ninja
Saulres
Thunderwielder

All are town, and are also town to a point we strongly oppose any votes on them today and will mock you if you make them.

How is this pro-town? Surely if someone looks through and decides one of them is worth voting, it provides another opinion that (for all we know) could be correct. I don't like how you're essentially forestalling any criticism on these players. Also, I don't see you saying much about Amrun and saulres, but you declare them town.

You later say it's a gut read (on saulres); can you explain why you feel that way? Why are you putting so much strength into your gut reads that you're ready to oppose their lynch already?


I've probably made it obvious by now, but I don't like saying outright 'X is town', particularly thise early. I think it's too likely to blind you (and others) to their scummy actions later on down the track.


Maruchan, what do you think of RoboThor's reads? Are you in danger of following them more than others because 'hey, it's Thor'?


If Nobody Special get's back from V/LA and still has nothing to say, I'll probably be fine voting him.
I'm also waiting on glowball to reassess Maruchan and thunder to figure out a stance.
I dn't like that Maruchan forgot what was going on with his vote; I'm happy enough to continue voting him.

[Supreme Overlord]

If anything I am in danger of scrutinizing and second guessing his reads because "Hey, its Thor" and Thor lead a rickety case on me that lead to my quicklynch D1 of a game when I was VT.

Which if you think about it, isn't so bad. The more scrutiny his reads are under, the more they can be assessed for their truthfulness.

OK, so what do you think of:

All are town, and are also town to a point we strongly oppose any votes on them today and will mock you if you make them.

I want to call supreme overlord newbie scum nervous that their elders are calling each other town, but my gut disagrees. Still, felt it ought to be noted.

What do you think are the advantages of declaring people town?

Supreme Overlord, I highly doubt maruchan would sheep thor... They seem to dislike each other quite a lot. Where did you get that impression?

I though it was a possibility considering Maruchan warned about RQS because Thor didn't like it; seemed to me like he held Thor in fairly high consideration.

Also Thor's townread on me should be obvious. We're on the same page.

You said that; I didn't see RoboThor say it. I asked because I didn't see RoboThor say anything clear about you until he declared you town. Doesn't hurt for him to spend a line or two saying why he thinks so.

[Supreme Overlord]

You are correct Amrun:

Hmmm, Amrun's first post echoes enough of my thoughts

I'll call it a town tell - I need a few more pro-town players out here

.

Although I can only presume RoboThor refers to post 141. The italicised bit gives me no comfort as to the reason that he decided you should be unlynchable today, though.

So by that point in the game you had absolutely zero reason to suspect anyone? Serious votes had been placed - you'd defended serious votes as a good thing and...
you made a non-serious vote.

Okay, Glowball and lane had made non-random votes. As they were both related to the RVS, I decided they weren't worth voting for (either to add my vote to the wagon or attack them for a dodgy vote). Looking back, I should have picked up on lane's 'conversation will probably start in the wrong direction', but I didn't.

I don't think you had a case besides that - probably you should re-state it for me.

I thought that his intentionally acting scummy was detrimental to the town and voted for him to discourage it. While weaker, I also didn't like that he seemed to be taking personally credit for getting the game moving.

So...what, basically you're scared I'm scum attempting to forestall lynch discussion on multiple players at once because I'll look so town that I'll scare away the actual town from lynching them?
Wait...whut?
Maybe the solution is to be an awesome town, like me, and then you won't have this problem.

I'm worried that regardless of your alignment, your force of will and reputation might be enough to prevent other players from attacking those you are protecting. While they might be your town reads, I'm not sure what you benefit from saying they absolutely should not be lynched today, and anyone who suggests it will be mocked.

You later say it's a gut read (on saulres);

can you explain why you feel that way?

Sure it's a gut read, but can you point anything out?

Why wouldn't I? Why would anyone put so much faith into their reads that they'd support lynching someone. It's opposite sides of the same coin.

Well, hopefully we're lynching on more than gut. The main problem I have with

announcing

town reads is that it seems to be that it's more likely to lead to those players being looked over because 'hey, we think they're town'; I think it would be a healthier mindset to acknowledge that all players are on a sliding scale of town to scum, and tehir positions fluctuate with every post.

Also, he's ignoring that I said as much - which means he either skimmed or didn't read my replace in wall very much.

Yes, I did miss that. Please note the comment above. (I will keep Ctrl+F in mind for the future.)

As far as NS is concerned; you did clue me in to how little he was saying; there is indeed nothing in his ISO. Since he's on V/LA there's no real point voting him now; he could have been just busy and is ready to get into the game, but after he comes back he has no excuse. You'll notice I said I'm also waiting on glowball and thunder. Saulres can be added to that list too.

Other things for RoboThor:
You like to identify town players, take them out of the equation, then lynch from your remaining pool, correct? I suppose there's nothing inherently wrong with that, so long as your not shoving your own town reads down everyone else's throat, particularly if theyre just to narrow down the pool and you're not all that convinced.
Is there any truth behind the claim that Thor is willing to push people to a lynch for proposing RQS? You've mentioned it 3 times (yay Ctrl+F), but while it seems you don't like it, you're not going to go anywhere with it.
Also, I take it that the reason you're not voting me is that NS was avoiding commenting on the game, while I'm just wrong?



I haven't yet said much on:
Auckmid: hasn't done much; only really talked about Maruchan and RVS. I think it was more reading comprehension than scum-related, so I don't think there's any malice there thus far.
Jon/kondi have got nothing.
NihilisticNinja was making some good posts, I'll be interested in what he has to say when he gets back.

[Supreme Overlord]

I thought that his intentionally acting scummy was detrimental to the town and voted for him to discourage it.

Sounds like you're calling him town.

I can see why you might think that. Either a) he's town and I'm voting him to discourage him from being anti-town or b) he's scum and I'm voting scum.

I'm worried that regardless of your alignment, your force of will and reputation might be enough to prevent other players from attacking those you are protecting.

And if I'm town and correct that will be awesome for us - and even if I'm wrong on one I'm pretty sure not all the scum are in that batch.

I'm willing to let this go for today and possibly the rest of the game as well. You're the first player I've played with who uses this method, so I'll reserve judgement on how well it works until postgame.

WHo is your top town read?
Would you support their lynch today?

Top town read would probably be Amrun; he's showing that he's thinking and questioning. Amrun, do you have anything to add for your case on lane?
Much as it hurts to say this, RoboThor is probably in second place; his stances and strategy sounds genuinely town-oriented.
I'm mostly happy with lane, thunder and Ninja; the first two have each done something questionable (trying to guide conversation and failing to vote glowball, respectively), while Ninja hasn't been around recently.

I'd support a lynch on Maruchan, and possibly NS (pending him coming back). I have uneasy feelings on glowball and saulres, but I think that's more playstyle than anything.

Meanwhile, no one has said much of anything about NS as he's lurked through everything - so I figured I'd speed lynch him since no one would oppose me. You should vote him too, if he flips scum I'll probably drop my issues with you.

A tempting offer. I'll decide when he actually returns.

NS and Overlord...nah, I mean if you don't agree with my Maruchan case then why ask for my reads on others?

It's not just RoboThor who wants to know; it just happened to be him that asked. Any particular reason why you're withholding this information?

give me a template to follow so that my actions aren't scum

Make a case on your suspects and continue adding to it, and whenever someone attacks you, defend against it. If they drop it, they either keep pressing their redundant case (which you can use in a counterattack), or they'll come up with something new. If so, defend against that too. Shouldn't be that hard if you're town.

The back and forth between glowball and Maruchan about having enough time to play took us nowhere.

My Thoughts == Why the heck isn't Nobody Special not about to die?

I can't support that Day 1, at this point if we lynch Nobody Special we will be back to square one in the next day phase regardless of the flip. I don't think that lynch is scum and I see no point in lynching a townie for no information

I agree with this post, expect replace 'I don't think that lynch is scum' with 'I have nothing with which to decide whether or not NS is scum'.

Wow. This dude does his research. He;s really taught me to be careful who I fight with. O.o Now me fighting with Glowball as turned into scum-reads for us both due to Gowball's past games. Thats is by far the most interesting case ever used against me that I have seen.

Want to defend against it? Or should we just assume that you concede that it's valid, and get on with lynching you?

NihilisticNinja is probscum.

What makes you think so? His posts look pretty town to me, and it looks like he's flaked rather than avoiding the thread.

I can't say I'm impressed with this post, although it did at least have some reads. Nobody Special, are you still on V/LA or still catching up, or is that all we're going to get from you?

[Supreme Overlord]

Sorry, robo, don't feel like lynching ns today.

Why not? Presumably something in his recent post convinced you. Wouldn't happen to be:

Amrun, as much as I hate to say it, is most likely town, also.

Would it?

[Supreme Overlord]

Glowball, don't throw.a hissy fit. No pro-town player should need to be asked for their reads - and definitely not twice.

More often than not I've noticed scum ask for reads on specific players so that they can gauge the town before nightphase. I am not withholding any crucial information as I have already stated who I would be willing to lynch today and that should be enough.

This is ridiculous. How are you supposed to be of any use to the town if you don't give out your opinions? Plus, being asked to check specific players can bring new things to light that you may not have noticed previously. As thunderweilder said, even if you're scummy enought to be lynched, your reads are solely town-influenced, and therefore a bit more reliable than the poepl who are still alive.

Of course, even if it is both harmful and hurtful for a town player to give out reads, it's only helpful for a scum player to conceal them. It lets you change your mind without leavin a paper trail, with the excuse of 'I've thought this all along, but I didn't say so because the scum would've found out'. (

Thunderweilder already said some of this, I believe.

Actually, it was Maruchan.)

Yes you are keeping the scum from seeing who has the biggest townie points, which is good.

Actually, since we already have a number of players giving out town reads ( ) I don't think letting the scum know another player's reads would be all that damaging. (Which brings another point to mind; I usually assume scum are intelligent enough to work out who the generally-regarded town players are anyway; I think my initial viewpoint on town reads was knee-jerk and rather flawed.)



I like thunder's case, and the strength of it and his subsequent vote has largely alliviated my concerns about him. The inability of blowball to defend herself or give out the reads requested of her is enough to earn my vote.
UNVOTE: Maruchan
VOTE: glowball

[Supreme Overlord]

Town reads only matter to scum.

Interesting that you didn't mention this back on page 8/9 when I was talking to RoboThor and Amrun about their town reads. Plus, the original question wasn't about town reads, it was about reads on specific players (Nobody Special and myself). It's not only the reads that are important, it's your reasoning behind how you arrived at those reads. If it's just 'rubbish, rubbish, rubbish; he's scum', that's giving us insight into your alignment.

I have scum reads MARUCHAN and SAULRES. Why do you need the town reads? Why aren't the scum reads good enough?

Because scumreads are only half of the game.

Not only this, but so far you've only given reads on two players. Disregarding your own alignment, that's only one quarter of the players in the game.

I'm reading through the thread now, but I find it interesting that Overlord has joined the Glowball wagon even though this is the first accusation about her all game.
@Supreme Overlord: Would you concider yourself a Sheep?

I would not. However, I would say that I'm able to be swayed by reasonable arguments. I found thunderweilder's arguments sensible, and with that added to glowball's lack of defence and refusal to provide reads, it sums up to a logical place to put my vote.
In #240 I mentioned 'uneasy feelings' about glowball; obviously not strong, but my vote hasn't come out of nowhere. That was also the first post where I asked her about refusing to give out reads.


Just a note on glowball's 'sensitivity'; I'm not planning to be swayed one way or another by emotion. Clear arguments are what I like to see and use.

[Supreme Overlord]

So far as deciding between a NS and a glowball lynch is concerned:
NS has been useless, but he is on V/LA and the lack on interactions between him and anyone else severely limits the information we'd get from lynching him. I'm willing to give him a chance to get into the game and contribute. If he does come back but still has nothing worthwhile to say, I'll be happy to lynch him.
glowball is consistantly posting and refusing to cooperate in a pro-town manner. I think lynching glowball would be more worthwhile in terms of information; plus we have more from this slot to make an informed decision in the first place.


@hoppster: What's your opinion on glowball? WHat would it take for you to vote her over NS?

(Yes, I know there's been some facts. Few and far between, but they're there. Somewhere. )

It would be awesome for you to tell us what they are. Also, who are you willing to lynch?

I actually recall saying I don't think he [saulres] deserved a formal case because his scumminess was obvious.

Is his scumminess still obvious to you? If so, can you point out a couple of places so it can be obvious to the rest of us as well?

I hate dying after giving my reads and being right to watch the reads that I was asked for be ignored. It's just a frustrating practice that I am considering not participating in anymore using this game as the test.

What you can conclude from this game already is that refusing to give reads actually makes you appear more scummy, and therefore more likely to die, and therefore more likely (in your opinion) to have your reads ignored. Simple solution: give out your reads, particularly when people ask you explicitly for them.

@Amrun, what's your opinion on NS and glowball?

[Supreme Overlord]

Could someone else maybe re-iterate my questions for Glowball so she might think about participating?

Allow me.

I never said Saulres is more scummy than Maruchan that is just a deduction you made from my vote placement- why don't you check when that vote was made...

Walls come from town and scum- I never said that only scum do walls and it isn't one of my tells so I feel like maybe you aren't understanding my points on walls. I am sure that their are scum writing walls, but that's just a hunch and definitely not enough deserving of a vote. By the way, I definitely never said it was a STRONG tell, or a tell at all- I do believe that both town and scum write walls...so stop intentionally

misrepping

me or if it was an accident you need to provide quotes for things you have questions on.

FoS: Thunder

Never had a formal "case" on Saulres, again check when the vote was made. At this point there is more of a chance of him being scum because he reminds me of myself as a newb, but my vote may or may not change as I've been looking at him AND Maruchan. Both are fine lynches for the day...

Please quote the post where thunder was misrepping you.

I asked you to point out saulres' scumminess in my previous post (dot points or quotes, please).

Um, the other question was yours and I don't remember what is was- if you wanted answered you need to ask it again, I'm not going through searching and quoting a question, I'm lazy.

Maruchan didn't even notice that I didn't answer his question. This is only one of two I purposefully ignored. Maruchan isn't scum hunting- he's defending himself, buddying, and fluffing w/ a side of distraction. He obviously doesn't care about his answers because he never even noticed that I didn't answer, and if he did he just let it die.

This isn't quite a contradiction, but why are you willing to attack someone for not pushing for an answer, while you are also 'too lazy' to answer questions you've left outstanding?


However, I believe there was actually only this question, which glowball did answer in #269. The point still stands, though,

So its a bad thing if the game actually STARTS being a game on page for, rather than on page 10? Its bad for us to start actual content early? ... Why exactly?

Can you go through post #256 (thunder's case), and explain why

all

of it is entirely based on playstyle. If some of it isn't, defend yourself against that part.

... And ... give your reads on NS and myself, and explain why you have them.

[Supreme Overlord]

Apologies for the wall, but

I

think it's important and I would appreciate the questions within to be answered.

Scummie points to saulres & MrTrow for not caring even AFTER being pointedly told that I have been active elsewhere while inactive here for over twenty four hours.

Only scum like lurkers.

I get what you're saying here, but I can think of a couple of reasons why I would be too concerned; a) once it's been pointed out, why bother repeating it?, b) it seems more of an accusation on you rather than something that needs input from others, c) controlling lurkers is the mod's job. It's not a good thing they ignored it, but I can't say I would have commented on it either.

He also reads everyone in the game as town, except himself!

It's a sliding scale; top is townier, bottom is scummier. My apologies if you already understood this and were making a joke, but I thought it was worth clearing up.

I ISO'd him last night and agree with

most

of the points that have been stated. If you'd like me to, I will re-state them and quote the posts he make that I am referencing to with each point, but I remember being asked to NOT make pointless walls, which, repeating what others have said is considered a pointless wall in my book.

This is fine, but if there are any points you disagree with/don't think are that important, can you say which ones? Might also be a good idea just to say which cases you agree with (the player who wrote them, post etc; credit where credit's due).

Plus they're all relatively close on my list of scummieness.

How far up the list does 'willing to lynch' go?

You answered this; ~up to MrTrow. Do you have anything more on Trow other than not noticing your absence?

Ask all you want, but Maruchan finds Saulres way more scummy than I do but you aren't asking him for a case. WHEN I VOTED SAULRES IT WAS OBVIOUS GO BACK AND READ.

Perhaps I didn't make this clear. You are willing to lynch either Maruchan or saulres, correct? So you think saulres is still pretty scummy. Since your original vote for saulres was a while ago, has anything changed to make him seem more or less scummy since then in your opinion? So far as I can tell, your original reasons were RPing and worried about moving a vote in RVS, an OMGUS on Maruchan, and saulres reminds you of yourself (as scum) in newbie games. Anthing to add to that?

Glowball, why is saulres more scummy than Maruchan?

In your ISO you seem to be critisizing Maruchan a lot more than you're critisizing Saulres. Plus your comment about walls certainly doesn't apply to Saulres. So why is your vote on him instead of on Maruchan?
And who are the scum that are creating walls of text? And why are you not voting for them,

if you believe so strongly in that tell?

Can you re-iterate your entire case on Saul for me? Why is there more chance of him being scum than town?

The purple are lies

The purple are questions. Leading questions, at worst, but they're easily answered with 'let me clarify, I meant [insert your answer here]'. Why did you call it 'almost an outright lie' (#182)?

He's inferring things and he's wrong. I can't argue against a case with no solid points.

Well, you can. Go back to his case, look at what he said, compare it to what you said, and tell us why it's inconsistant.

i had a power roll read on saulres.

Why did you feel the need to tell us that?

was this not a case laid out by glowball on maruchan?

Yes; glowball's voting Maruchan. She's also said she's only willing to lynch Maruchan and saulres. So, we've asked for a case on saulres (or if it's been updated since her original vote, when they were 'obvious'). Presumably she's got good reasons for wanting saulres lynched (if Maruchan can't be), but we haven't heard them recently.

Am I the only one who finds this strange? Am I really so blantantly misguided in this read, or in EVERY SINGLE POINT that I bring forward, that I am branded as a liar, or an idiot that should be blacklisted? Do Glowball's reactions to me seem just a teeny tiny bit outrageous to anyone else?

Her reactions do seem over the top to me; I don't get what's the big deal about making a case, even if it hadn't been previously promised. I've been trying to rephrase questions in a more neutral way, and tackling each point in little steps so I can see where the issue is, but I'm not sure how well that's working out.

...
i dont find glowball's refusing to give her town reads scummy. scum would have cracked by now and given reads so they wouldnt appear scummy. thats my opinion.

Aw shit I agree with lane about something.

It's interesting you say that, because regardless of her alignment, glowball hasn't been lynched yet and even thunder was contemplating unvoting from the reaction. So it looks like the way glowball's acting is a viable survival strategy (considering how the NS wagon is still building steam), and therefore a reasonable thing for scum to do.



OK, I'm out for the weekend and when I get back deadline will be close. I still think a glowball lynch is a more solid option, and I would like NS to do something. If we don't lynch NS today, he's at least got a chance of contributing in future. However, if we let glowball live, she's still going to hound after Maruchan and saulres, and refuse to give out reads. Actually, I could rephrase that: if NS is town-V/LA, he's able to be town-active for the rest of the game. However, even if globall is town-useless, she'll still be town-uselss tomorrow.

Now, I'm not supporting a glowball lynch for only this reason, but I do think it's important to analyse the worst case scenario as well.

If I get back and the glowball wagon's died, the NS wagon is strong and NS hasn't said anything useful, I'll throw my support behind that. Otherwise; well, we'll see.

[Supreme Overlord]

NB: The deadline is the 2nd, not the 5th; 4 days away.

OK, the essence on my I'm voting for glowball: she's playing anti-town. She's pretty much refusing to give out any information; no reads (other than 'these are scum and must be lynched'), she's not responding to cases (because they're based on 'opinion' and are therefore invalid), and refusing to answer clarifying questions. She's not even voting for who (she says) she thinks is scum. I think at the moment she's playing to survive by deflecting everything into a 'playstyle' argument so she won't attract votes; it's working. I still think glowball is the best lynch option. Worst case scenario; she's town and we get rid of someone who wasn't giving anything and only would have tunnelled anyway. Best case; we nail a scum, and I think it's likely.

@glowball: if you want me to stop voting you, seek to remedy the stuff in the above paragraph.


I want a post from mothrax giving his scum reads before there's a chance of me voting him. With the deadline exension we've got time.

RoboThor, I'd appreciate any scum reads you get from mothrax's posts. Also, do you think there's any chance of you throwing your support behind the glowball wagon? (Like say, if mothrax gets into the game?) Who are your second/third scumreads at the moment?

Okay... but what question haven't I answered and/or addressed?

Try this one:

Glowball, why is saulres more scummy than Maruchan?

In your ISO you seem to be critisizing Maruchan a lot more than you're critisizing Saulres. Plus your comment about walls certainly doesn't apply to Saulres. So why is your vote on him instead of on Maruchan?
And who are the scum that are creating walls of text? And why are you not voting for them,

if you believe so strongly in that tell?

Can you re-iterate your entire case on Saul for me? Why is there more chance of him being scum than town?

The purple are lies

The purple are questions. Leading questions, at worst, but they're easily answered with 'let me clarify, I meant [insert your answer here]'.

Why did you call it 'almost an outright lie' (#182)?

seriously if we could all just get over glowball not giving town reads because she doesnt feel like it is beneficial to the game (even if you disagree) and get over her not spelling out her case on saulres (because she definately has on maruchan) perhaps we could all get back to scum hunting.

If we did get over that, there's still the resistance to questions and defending cases, plus her vote for someone she doesn't think is scummy.

i guarantee if you'd focus on someone else for awhile, she start playing more town like

Isn't that the point of pressure? Seeing how they respond to it, and judging accordingly? Why are you you so concerned about how she

might

play more townlike without pressure, when she

definitely

isn't playing townlike now?

Yeah, I've got a third read, but it's not as strong as you or Maruchan and I am still unsure if you two are scumz together one flip will make all things clear. I mean the reactions have helped me scum hunt, I never said the reactions told me EXACTLY who the scum are. When I know, which I suspect by tomorrow if we lynch correctly, I will let you know unless we lynch you which as I said before is still just as suitable as Maruchan.

...I wasn't really interested in hearing about it anyway.

How does that information help town rather than scum?

The only information that helps scum rather than town is what they can control. They can't control what someone will flip. They can't (solely) decide wo we lynch. How does this information

not

help the town?

I do not line up lynches. PERIOD. I am not going to tell you what one flip means over the other until the next day phase if I make it. The information you ask for is information scum asks for to assess their kills at night. "Oh well she said that if Saulres was scum then I wasn't so it's ookay to keep her around or let's WIFOM" NO. It sets up for something bad this early.

You overlook two things: 1. Scum are reading the same game we are. They can make informed decisions on who to kill, and it will likely be bad for us. 2. You do not have enough influence on your own to direct the lynches, even if you are correct once.
Telling us your (conditional) reads

only

puts more information out there in the pool for the town to use. Why are you so resistant? (And saying we'd ignore them isn't an answer; we'll ignore them even more if we don't know them.)

[Supreme Overlord]

As for the rest of your paragraph I don't need your vote off of me, I have done all I can in the realm of my game play to please you guys. This is me. Just lynch me and get it over with.

We are in agreement then. If you don't want me to remove my vote, I have no reason to stop voting you.

About the case, I have already agreed to give one the second glowball does, but We also agreed to generally force her to show hers first, since A: She was asked first, B: She is the only one unwilling to give a case.

OK, we've established that glowball is not going to make a case, and as lane said, it will be obvious if she tries to copy your reasons. ...Of course, you're not even voting saulres now, but you said he's still high on your list (#334). So can you make a case on saulres, explain why you're voting mothrax now and rank your top three scummiest players?

I realise you said this:

I am not letting her off the hook, just because she says no.

She's pretty much on the hook permanantly for saying no for so long. Given that we've established that she's refusing and is scummy for it, can you make your case now?


Mothrax looks like he might be able to make some decent posts. I would be quite happy for him to catch up and contribute.

if you think its scummy, make your case and vote.

Well, I have.

it started with not giving her case on town reads

Well, not exactly. It started with her not giving out reads of any kind when they were asked (orginally myself and NS).

you are wasting your time with glowball. that is what i'm concerned about. she's been doing the same thing for awhile. give this aspect a rest please. if glowball is scum, she will be scummy later too. if she's town, hopefully you'll see that later.

I feel that now it's not so much wasting time 'with' glowball as 'on' her. We've got plenty to suggest she's scummy, now it's just a matter of convincing everybody else that.

especially for there not to be a wagon on her yet

Happily, with Auckmid's vote, the wagon looks like it's picking up again.

WAIT.

Are you seriously still voting Maruchan? From the vote you made in your very first post of the game? Why exactly do you think Maruchan is scummy (your own words, please)? What are your other reads? Obviously you think glowball is town; why are you defending her so vehemently, again?

Maruchan is obviously scum- that whole "trap" thing is scumtactic all day but because it's ME saying it you ignore it.

How I interpret Maruchan's 'trap' is this: he set up a question that only scum would have answered in a particular way; lynching the second of the two people regardless of the first's alignment. You didn't answer in the way that only scum would have, which means a) you're town, or b) you're scum that didn't fall for the trap.

Glowball

, can you explain either why my explanation of the situation is wrong, or why setting up the situation (as Maruchan did) is scummy?

[Supreme Overlord]

UNOFFICIAL VOTECOUNT

mothrax (4): RoboThor, Hoppster, Maruchan, MrTrow
Maruchan (2): lane0168, glowball
glowball (3): thunderwielder, Supreme Overlord, Auckmid
lane (1): Amrun

Not Voting (2): mothrax, saulres

It's 7 to lynch, so mothrax is at L-3 and glowball's at L-4.

Claiming in this game really means nothing, does it? Because since the mafia know what two roles they gave, and which one they didn't, any mafia could PR claim the one they didn't assign and we'd have no way to know. So any claim before we have real reads on the PRs wouldn't mean anything, would it.

Hmm. I think it's still worth leaving a claimed PR alive, at least for another day. That way night actions (real or faked investigations; lack of kills) can give more info on whether a claim should be believed. Like if a roleblocker claims, then later on the cop says they were roleblocked; that proves the RBs role. Same if a doctor protects someone who dies; they know there's a roleblocker out there, so if they claim, they know it's the truth.

Of course, if the L-1ee claims VT, the hammer gets dropped.

That post I quoted is still scummy, but glowball is not scum. Sticking with my gut on this one.

Do you think it will be helpful to leave glowball alive? Because scummy post + useless player; why not lynch them? I appreciate you think lane is scummy; but that wagon doesn't exist and I think glowball's flip would be helpful in determining lane's alignment (why the defence, etc.). Would you be willing to vote glowball closer to deadline?

[Supreme Overlord]

I point again to my first scumhunting post, where I make the case that glowball, Maruchan, and Amrun are the three mafia, and there was bussing.

It will be interesting to see if/how Maruchan votes glowball; he's been saying she's scummy, but hasn't taken any action about it.

Although if I had to guess now, I'd pick that glowball and lane were scum, and Amrun was town. Not sure about Maruchan. What both Amrun and Maruchan do with their vote before deadline should be illuminating.

She is emotional, and in this state, not very helpful, but when she calms down and gets to business it will be different.

Forgive me if I'm not convinced by:

Hell I'll probably be more cooperative in the next day phase.

Amrun, can you talk me through your thought processes behind switching to glowball and back to lane again?

Goodness you guys just don't read between the lines...

Isn't this why you're so upset at thunder?

it is rather obvious, I just don't feel the need to come outright with it.

If it's so obvious, why not just come out and say it?
Glowball, do you deny that by not explicitly stating your reads, you're leaving yourself the option of backing out of whatever people read 'between the lines' because you didn't say those exact words?

[Supreme Overlord]

I re-read glowball's ISO and remembered how pro-town her early game was (which is explicitly detailed in my catch-up post).

Why exactly are you calling glowball town? You say exactly three things about glowball in your catch-up post (#141):

Accordingly, glowball pointing this [saulres acquiescing immediately with a hint a panic] out and voting immediately is a town point.

glowball gets points for pointing this [saulres showing extreme concern for others' perceptions] out immediately as scummy.

Do not like glowball's post 133. Glowball, if you think Maruchan is scummier than saulres, YOU SHOULD BE VOTING MARUCHAN. Either way, WHY does this merit an FoS on thunder?

Two positives and a negative. Both positives relate to saulres' RVS actions. Is this why you're so convinced glowball's town?


Also, Amrun, do you agree or disagree with this:

HELL I have basically super glued myself to Maruchan and Saulres' flips

ie, if Maruchan and saulres both flip town (or maybe even one); glowball is scum and needs to be lynched.

She was 1 notch higher on my scum list than NS, and NS's wagon is currently bigger.

NS's (now mothrax) wagon is only bigger because you're on it. If you think glowball is scummier than NS (was), why not make it 5-3 rather than the current 4-4?

[Supreme Overlord]

response to supreme overlord forthcoming, and i'm assuming that i can quote myself from the game to make my case using my own words, correct supreme overlord?

Sure thing.

what happens if one of them flips scum, knowing you'll assume the other two are? Seems it would be a nice ploy for scum to use to incriminate two townies.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. If one of them flips scum, we've successfully lynched scum. I doubt that scum would sacrifice one of their own on a bet that we'll lynch two more townies solely on saulres' word.

Since I am still not fully caught up would someone mind making a consider case on glowball or at least highlight points of interest.

I summed up why I'm voting in #429, for RoboThor. Others may have a little more.

Amrun, I wish I could, but although I find Lane somewhat scummy, I find Glowball really scummy. And the really takes over the somewhats everytime.

I have similar sentiments. Mothrax' reads (if we ever get them) will alter his position in that bottom three as well.

[Supreme Overlord]

Maruchan

, I've been talking to you. Answer me! Posts 449 and 477. Can you also comment on my response to you in #505?

Armrun, please respond to my questions in #447; why is glowball town?

IPeople don't like certain roles, thus they replace in, see that they got that role and then do nothing. Scum tends to be one of those roles.

I dunno. Scum roles are (obviously) rarer than town roles, I would have thought people would rather hang on to them. But I don't like using replacing out as a hint either way.

Anyway, thoughts on what I've just written?

I've said something to this effect before, but I'd rather have mothrax thatn glowball going into Day 2. At the moment, it's glowball < mothrax < lane in terms of who I want to lynch.

huh, that doesnt look like much lol, but its doin it for me

To me, it doesn't look like you've got much past the early game. Can you give a complete list of the town, in order of scummy to townie, with justification?

[Supreme Overlord]

I've been pretty transparent on my thoughts on glowball. I recognize that some of her actions can reasonably be interpreted as anti-town, but I could see her intentions and her emotions getting in the way, all up until the post I pointed out and am still pressing glowball about. I switched simply to show I was serious about finding that post scummy and because my lane vote is lonely, but I re-read glowball's ISO and

remembered how pro-town her early game was (which is explicitly detailed in my catch-up post)

. glowball is town in spite of her current stubborness.

I read your catch-up post. Why are those two reasons, both of which relating to saulres in the RVS, so convincing to you that glowball is town?

[Supreme Overlord]

There are several other reasons, such as not giving in when pressured about her reads and general intent of her posts, but yes.

Why didn't you mention them when I was asking for why you thought glowball was town? Why just point me to your catch up-post? Do you think that the reasons in your catch-up post, by themselves, aren't terribly strong?

Thanks for that, Maruchan. It sums up why you were on saulres, and kind of indicates why you aren't voting him now. It pretty much lays to rest any concerns I had that you didn't really have a case and were hiding behind glowball.

[Supreme Overlord]

Because I had ALREADY pointed them out. You can read my iso.

The point of getting

you

to point them out was so we can see which parts you emphasize, and also so you can review your case and see if it still has merit.

@supreme overlord. Can you give a complete list of townie to scummy? With justification? I personally don't have a complete list with justification. Id like to see yours though. And I can try to do my best when I get home from work.

I'd still like to see yours, even if it's not completely set is stone.

Town-ish:

thunderweilder - has been making solid points, that I agree with on the whole. Been strong and committed with his attacks.
RoboThor - they make fairly good points; I'm not entirely sure why they're so on mothrax now, I'm hoping they'll switch to glowball. I'd like them to post a bit more frequently, too.
Amrun - I'm mostly happy that Amrun's been playing well. The only concern I have here is that she finds glowball town despite not really having strong reasons (that I can see).
saulres - started off shakily but in recent posts has been making good observations. Probably pretty close to Amrun.
Maruchan - with the recent posting of the case on saulres, I'm satisfied that Maruchan has had good reasons and is generally reasonable.

Neutral:

Hoppster - I was liking NihilisticNinja's play. His first couple posts were pretty good; since he's dropped out more recently I don't have a solid town-read on him. I'm not entirely sold on his mothrax case.
Auckmid - He hasn't been around much. He's got a couple of decent posts, but that's it. I don't really know where he stands, which isn't a good sign.
MrTrow - No idea. Hasn't done anything.

Scummy:

mothrax - I think NS could have done a lot more while he was here. Mothrax has at least done something and given reads, but without a whole heap of reasoning. I don't buy his idea of serial lurking as a tell.
lane - I find it strange that he hasn't changed his mind all game; been on Maruchan since his very first post, for fairly weak reasons IMO. No idea why he's so resistant to finding glowball scum.
glowball - I've been here; refusal to give reasoning, defend etc etc.

A lot was early game. That stuff about him getting a confirmed town wasn't. I thought that was super fake. I think maru has been fake all game.

Can you elaborate? Why is it fake, and why is fake scummy?


I'll be online once tomorrow, then not again before deadline. So, if need be, I will vote mothrax, but I do sincerely think that glowball is a better lynch.

Basically id rather mislynch moth than glow.

Why? Based on playstyle so far, do you think a town glowball will be more useful than a town mothrax?

the moth flip probably won't give a lot of information whereas a glow flip could be quite enlightening.

Yet you still think that, at deadline, you'd rather lynch mothrax than glowball?

[Supreme Overlord]

why is fake scummy? because town act like town. scum try to act like town. any of the fake town, would be scum. Because i think that having that whole ploy about not posting purposefully until someone calls him out on it so he can confirm them as town seemed over the top. and i dont believe that was the real intent behind the whole deal. I believe the whole intent was so that people would see him as being more townie as a result of him calling someone else confirmed town. and in general i just think maruchans scum hunting, and attitude towards pressure is just fake. he seems like he was trying not to care too much with a purpose. i find maruchan scummy. i still do. i think maru is the best lynch today.

OK, so you're using 'fake' as a synonym for 'scummy'. Got it. As for Maruchan's actions, while I don't think his lurking idea was a good one, and I don't buy his conclusions, I don't find it particularly scummy, nor out or character for him.

Did you think that maru's purposeful not posting was a legitimate strategy? because i dont see it like that at all

I think it was stupid and useless, but since I don't think it damaged the town at all, I don't see it as indicative of alignment.

thunder is strong and committed on his attacks. top of the list. i have committed at least even if you dont think my case is strong. i think its strong. stronger than amruns case on me thats for sure. amrun hasn't changed her mind on me either. plus doesnt see the glowball case. she is way up there in townie. i havent changed my mind on maru, am committed to it, and also resist the glowball wagon, yet i'm bottom of the list. I am not following this. i do not understand why i am so low. dont get me wrong, i'm not trying to catch you in a trap by any means. i think you are pretty genuine in your scum hunting. i just dont understand this.

Since, according to my list, you're my top suspect right now, I'm going to go back and do a more in-depth case on you, but the essence is this: While you had been on Maruchan all day, I didn't think your reasons were strong and you seemed unwilling to consider changing your mind. You kept asserting that Maruchan was scummy without going into much detail (as opposed to, say, thunder, who was actively talking to glowball and trying to coax reasons from her, while laying out a case).

I like my mothrax case. Why don't you? (Ie. please show your working.)

On mothrax's meta, I see three seperate points:
1. NS 'lynching a kitten' etc - This is the bit I like least about his meta-stuff; however I can see how, from mothrax's perspective, it's reasonable to show that lurking (which might otherwise be quite subjective as a tell) is not necessarily indicative of NS-scum.
2. Glowball is scummy regardless of meta was a point I agreed with; the difference that I see is that glowball's play was objectively scummy, while NS's lurking was more subjective - therefore, glowball definitely deserves a lynch while NS may or may not, which he then used other games to show.
3. Maruchan self-metaing is different to mothrax NS-metaing; self-metaing is useless because if you're aware of your meta you can manipulate it. However, mothrax wasn't self-metaing; he was metaing NS, who, while it was the same slot, he had no control over NS's actions, so the meta is a bit more valid.

On Maruchan worrying about pressure and glowball asking to be lynched:
Firstly, 'overlooking the logical continuation of glowball-town' is not scummy. An unfortunate oversight, perhaps, but not scummy.
Also, Maruchan's response to the pressure of votes was along the lines of 'keep them coming'; in my opinion, Maruchan and glowball were somewhat similar in terms of reaction to votes, trying to be blithe about it in the hopes that the votes won't be taken seriously and not followed.

So that's why I'm not entirely sold on your mothrax case.


Saulres, I doubt #3 as well; there are 3 scum and they had all weekend; I'm sure one of them got their action in. (Although it does look like night went for 72 hours, so it's possible actions weren't submitted, but it's also possible a VT didn't send a 'No Action' PM)

Maruchan, which of Saulres' scenarios do you think is most likely?

[Supreme Overlord]

As to the first bit of your post I quoted, I agree. I was merely doing it to prove a point to glowball, that deliberately doing something anti-town to see how other people react to it, does not make the move a pro-town move. (Re: her deliberately ignoring my questions to see if I noticed)

Ah, yes, I knew there was some other reason. A dodgy move, but I don't think the motivation was dodgy.

1 cop + 1 roleblocker: 1 confirmed scum from the roleblocker. The cop has 3 possibilities: 1 confirmed town, an additional confirmed scum, or no additional confirmed scum (if they investigated the same person who the roleblocker blocked).

1 cop + 1 doctor: 1 confirmed town from the doc. The cop has 3 possibilities: 1 confirmed scum, an additional confirmed town, or no additional confirmed town from the cop (if they investigated the same person who the doctor protected).

If we don't have a cop (so 1 roleblocker + 1 doctor): No confirmations at all until a person they targeted flips the opposite -- the doctor protecting a flipped scum would mean the roleblocker knows a scum, the roleblocker blocking a flipped townie means the doctor knows a townie).

And this is why I consider saulres town these days.

Somebody's

thinking.


I won't have a chance to do a detailed case on lane until tomorrow, and maybe not even then, so I don't want to put a vote there until I've reevaluated. Mothrax I want to do something good today; I'll wait until he posts. Going up my list in #590, I've got no read on MrTrow. I'll put some pressure on that slot until I can consolidate my thoughts on lane and mothrax.

Mod: Is MrTrow being replaced?

VOTE: MrTrow

[Supreme Overlord]

Well, I don't really know if I have a question for you, but I'm curious as to why you're voting Mr. Trow. If you suspect Lane, vote for Lane. It'll take six votes to vote him out, there's no real chance of anything happening while you're away, unless you're going to be away for quite some time. To me, this looks like suspicious behaviour. I have a townish read on you, so this action startles me quite.

My reason for voting Trow is twofold. Firstly, I'm using this vote as a message of sorts to MrTrow; I'm not necessarily expecting more activity from him, but it's letting him know that we haven't forgotton him and he needs to contribute ASAP. Secondly, it's somewhat of a marker to myself; I've found myself forgetting Trow was in the game (not a good sign), so when I read back over my posts later I can be reminded. How effective this will be we have yet to see, but since I'm not keen on voting lane until I get a chance to do a proper case (which may well change my opinion of him), it's a reasonable thing to do IMO.

I think we have better options to pursue rather than wasting a vote and a voice like that.

Since I've not had as much time to post yesterday, today and likely tomorrow, my voice and vote aren't going to be much present anyway, so I think it's worthwhile to use what time I do have to donate to the game in making a smaller statement on Trow.

In ALLLL of my scum-games, I have never considered making a No Kill, or any kill, for 'teehee Wine-in-front-of-me' (loldatrhymes), and I don't believe my team-mates have contemplated such things either.

I'd think the cons to no-killing outweigh the pros for scum, and while (since they know the setup), fake-claiming a doc save is less of a risk than usual, I'm pretty much working on the assumption that there was no scum kill because a member of the town stopped one. Scum tying themselves together with a doc claim and a fake-save is dangerous if we start to suspect either one.

Your mothrax case isn't terrible, but I'm just not entirely assured of the scumminess of it. Be assured, though, that I'll be keeping it in mind as I make my case on lane and decide who to vote.

[Supreme Overlord]

OK guys, lane case (AKA 'I'm Adament'); tl;dr in a following post:

VOTE: MARUCHAN

Doesn't like it if people dont participate in RVS, and doesn't like it when people do participate, or start, RQS. Whether or not someone wants to spew questions, the conversation will start eventually. Probably in the wrong direction.

First post, the one where she voted for Maruchan and left it there for the majority of Day 1. I never liked the 'probably in the wrong direction' idea; not terribly strong, but I felt like lane was trying to insinuate that his way was the (only) right way.

In #31, the knit hat post (and I'm not sure if someone's made this connection before); lane furthers the movement of conversation into the wrong direction by asking a random question. An odd idea since he was clearly aware that relevent conversation was important. (I'm aware lane later defended this by saying it was still RV/QS; however I do think it's strange how these first two posts seem a little contradictory in terms of early game-plan.)

hey mr maruchan. yeah you. id like a little more effort for trying to stay alive

as town

. i'd really like it if you werent basically accepting a

mislynch

. you almost seem, i dont know what you seem, but i'd like it if you put it a little more effort towards staying alive,

if you are town

. thank you and come again. thank you for letting us know what you'll do at L-2 and L-1 though. at least we can know what to expect.

if you are town

. stop accepting being

mislynched

please

This one here's a little weird; there's a lot of emphasis on Maruchan being town, which is odd, since lane's voting him. Lane, care to explain what your thoughts behind this post were?

Can we get to the point now? Cause its a little distracting from scumhunting imo.

I'm town. Now start talking about those two words. Decide if you believe me. And later in the game come back to it for more relevant information.

I think that saying 'I'm town' has just about 0 meaning. In fact, with so little information thus far, it's tricky to say if this is actually any better than what else we're talking about. Looks to me like your trying to say 'hey, look at me, I'm helping out', when really it's not adding much either.

Pretty much sums up what I thought of this post.

i will vote if there is a better case [referring to saulres]

I find this comment interesting, since lane

didn't

change his vote for a long time. I suppose that means he thought his case on Maruchan was superior to all others, but I just couldn't see it.

i had a power roll read on saulres.

This was just bad. Regardless of whether you're picking up PR-tells as town or scum, there's no pro-town reason to out them. Lane, why did you have a PR-read, and why did you change your mind?

personally if i was glowball i would stop responding to thunder

This is not a pro-town sentiment. (Not that I think it would have affected glowball's behaviour); however encouraging other players to ignore posts directed at them is not good advice. Lane, what were you hoping to achieve here?

Lane spent a lot of time defending glowball, which I can't decide whether is scummy or not. glowball flipped town, of course, but there were obviously solid reasons to vote her that were never defended; on the whole I'm thinking scum-lane tried to 'defend' a town player who was obviously not defending herself, hoping to get town 'I told you so' points after the mislynch.
Another scenario occurs to me; it's good for scum-lane to keep a distracting town-glowball around for as long as possible, in order to draw attention away and perhaps get a mislynch later in the game. (Kinda backfired, if that's the case...)

Basically maruchan posts are not good posts. There really isnt much content to his walls. And that whole confirming hoppster as town ploy or whatever basically sealed the deal for me voting for maruchan. I feel like I had more while the game was going on, but cant remember what there was.

huh, that doesnt look like much lol, but its doin it for me

Lane's conclusion to his 'case' on Maruchan. Not a strong case at all, in my opinion, and certainly not worthy of a vote kept for 23 pages. I agree that Maruchan's early game was shady, and his lurking was silly, but apart from that I thought his play had been fine, while there were duelling wagons on NS and glowball that lane could have considered.

[in response to Maruchan's case on saulres] fluff. searching. stretching. die maruchan

Wrong, and without any explanation as to why lane thinks so. It's lane trying to get Maruchan lynched, but without any strong reasoning; just hoping others will jump on board.

Basically id rather mislynch moth than glow. I want no part in to glow wagon today. If she is scum, it should come out later at which point I would be willing to reread that shit storm back there. As far as moth v no lynch, deginately would hammer before a no lynch. One thing to think about, due to lack of activity, the moth flip probably won't give a lot of information whereas a glow flip could be quite enlightening.

Can you explain your thinking behind this post, and why you ultimately changed your mind?

As far as moth vs glowball. i didnt want to be a part of a glowball mislynch.

idk why i'm so against that, i just am.

however, after the last little spat with glowball, the human nature in me started to look at her with a different light. I think i wasnt quite understanding what the big fight was back there, because when i said it was about the saulres case and town reads, amrun said it really wasnt about that. i may have thought that about it, and therefore was failing to understand what i was reading.

The bolded screams of not having proper justification for his words, an just going along hoping it'll be followed and won't be questioned.

glowball town. shocking.

Are you happy that you made the right decision, according to you're cost-benefit analysis?

i will not be going against how i feel anymore. i tried that. and we mis lynched.

So you won't listen to reason if you 'feel' it's wrong? Mislynching isn't all that bad; it's a necessary part of the game, and we came out of it pretty well.

[Supreme Overlord]

tl;dr (but please do read the whole thing):
lane chose his vote very early and stuck to it while (IMO) his case was weak and there were better ones going ahead; a general refusal to take other points of view into account.
lane defended glowball to either a) get townie points when she was mislynched or b) keep a distracting glowball around until late-game when she could be mislynched for a scum read.
Making comments without substantial backup in the hopes that they'll be believed and not questioned.

UNVOTE: MrTrow
VOTE: lane

if you havent noticed yet, I have trow and mothrax left. In this post of supreme overlords, with trow, he has his vote on him, but says, meh well its not that important I wont be here so i'm just gonna put this on trow, to make it seem like he already has some pressure. Hopefully other people wont put more pressure on my scum buddy, and at the same time, I can look townie. Really this is no pressure. And even so,

it does look townie that he is trying to get trow to play

. Its a little wishy washy. He puts pressure on trow but not really, since he's only waiting for his case on me.

So you don't buy that, later in the game, I'll be able to read back through my ISO and remember to pay attention to Trow? Do you think that my general appearence has become more townie since I 'tried to get Trow to play'? I suppose it can be taken as wishy-washy, but it's not like I haven't made my thoughts clear about who I was suspicious of; it's not really pressure on Trow at all, just a reminder we know he's there. By the way, does anything in this paragraph make sense if either Trow or I are town?

Then he says something about mothrax at the end. He's wishy washy again. Kind of making it seem like he'll look into mothrax, but really, we all know he's not going to look into mothrax.

This isn't 'something about mothrax'; it's a response to Hoppster in the context of a conversation we were already having about his mothrax

case

. We 'all know' I'm not going to look into mothrax (specifically) because I'd already said I'd be making a case on you today, and I've already said I'm willing to give mothrax a chance to do something useful today.


By the way, on the setup and no-killing; according to the wiki there have been three Pick Your Poison games played; all of which were Doc-RB. There was only one Scum QT available, but it looks like no scum team considered a no kill. I think that the most likely case is Doc-Rb, and with those two roles floating around scum probably want to get every kill they can. (Sorry thunder, but I typed this before you posted.)

I won't bother explaining again why I thought glowball was the right lynch; if you

really

need to know, ask me and I'll tell you.

[Supreme Overlord]

probably in the wrong direction. meaning i imagine that the first person to get some blame probably isnt even scum, in this case it was saulres i believe. i also dont believe he is scum. so yes, to me, and if saulres is town, it was in the wrong direction.

OK, I misunderstood what you meant by 'wrong direction'. Considering chances are that the first person to be accused will indeed be town, why did you bother bringing it up in the first place (as in, what would you do in the early game to

not

go in the wrong direction)?

that emphasis was not only yours, but mine as well. the emphasis of not really acting like town, even though he's supposed to be. all my towns and mislynch's were just not bolded, as they were in your quote. but i'm glad you picked up on the emphasis i was trying to convey. Can you tell me the scumminess? are you confused about who i think is scum because i was hypothetically calling them town?

Is your implication here that, since he's not preserving himself, he's scum? Or is it that you were hoping that if Maruchan was town, he'd start caring about surviving, and if we was scum, he'd just give up and die?

I don't see where voting for a case that you think is superior to others is scummy. Isn't that what you're supposed to do? vote for who you think is the scummiest? can you tell me what the scummy part is in this?

I suppose what I think is scummy about this is that

I

didn't think your case was worth continuing to vote for (in light of the other cases), so the fact that you continued anyway leads me to believe you have an ulterior motive in lynching Maruchan. You took a long time to make that case, and then when you did there wasn't much to it, and little of it was recent. This point isn't really designed to convince other people on it's own; more they need to check your case, then decide whether they think it was strong enough.

this was absolutely pro town. i feel like i said many times that we need to move on from the glowball thing.

i didnt see her as being scum now did i?

i thought the entire conversation was ridiculous and distracting. i didnt think it could lead to anything good but a mislynch and scum coasting to a lynch. if glowball WOULD HAVE STOPPED, maybe we could have gotten other conversation going, had some new suspects, and possibly avoided a mislynch.

I see the bolded as a 'I defended town, therefore I'm town'; townies only know this in hindsight, whereas you seemed very certain. I suppose whether telling glowball to stop is a pro-town move is a matter of opinion, but I think that encouraging a player (who was

alread

refusing to give information to the town) to cease interactions with another player, is not good for the information flow within the town.

can you iso me and tell me how many times i said it wasnt a defense. my biggest defense was i didnt see her as being scum. what i was ACTUALLY SAYING IN MY POSTS, was that i could see where people were coming from, but i didnt see it and that the point has been made, but it was time for us to move on. NOT A GLOWBALL DEFENSE. listen, (point taken, move on) does not equal (glowball defense)

Yes,

you

said it wasn't a defence. Since you were actively trying to discourage another player's lynch (particularly since they weren't defending themselves), sorry, but I see it as defensive, and I'm not inclined to believe you just because you said so.
If a point has been made, we shouldn't just 'move on'; otherwise why bother making a good point in the first place. An indefensible point should be followed up with trying to get as many people to be convinced by that point as possible.

one question, is my case on maruchan stronger than the case on glowball? obviously the case on glowball was interpretation. needless to say, it was wrongly interpreted. isn't that what mine is? glowball is confirmed town. i'd say my case on maru is better than that one.

Benefit of hindsight; you (as town) could

not

have

known

glowball was town.. Subjectively, yesterday, I think the uncountered case on glowball was far superior to the case based on Maruchan's early play and some intentional lurking. (Objectively, the glowball case was stronger because it achieved a lynch.)

explain my thinking behind this post? that entire post is my thoughts being typed out. read it. and why i ultimately changed my mind is clearly expressed at the end of day 1. good questions, forgot to read my entire iso though.

There was no indication between that post and the post where you (tried) to vote glowball that you were going to change your mind. Can you tell us which posts/what time convinced you that you needed to switch your vote?

as in, i dont have proof as to why i think glowball is town, but the case against her, i am against. so yes, it was screaming of not having proper justification. thats what the idk part was about.

I hope you can understand why this doesn't reassure me of your townieness.


I just want to go back to this:

Well when I wanna vote maruchan, a cost benefit analysis gives my vote to glowball. More information. The hard part is interpretting it.

Have you been able to interpret any more than 'glowball was town, therefore lane, who thought glowball was town, must be town'?

if i "feel" it is wrong, it is because i am interpreting things differently than others. the way i was not seeing the glowball lynch. i will listen to reasons.

are you saying not believing that glowball was town was going against reason?

and that i was wrong in doing so?

You may interpret things differently, but remember that it's your job to persuade us to see your interpretation (if you think it's correct). @Bolded: I thought it was quite reasonable to not believe glowball was town. I can't really fathom why some people thought her actions could indicate pro-town alignment, though.

mislynching isn't all that bad, especially for scum eh?

The main problem behind mislynching is that we lose two townies (lynch + kill); since there was no kill, we've largely mitigated that problem. Glowball was either going to be mislynched or become a nuisance in endgame (as being killed by scum was unlikely), so a mislynch of her without a scum kill really isn't a bad thing. As circumstances are now, we've only had one kill, (almost) completely town-driven; not exactly ideal for scum. While it would be nice to lynch scum every day, the reality is it's not going to happen, so it's not worth getting worked up over a mislynch.

no it doesnt, cause its not in that sense. if you need to call it a defense, then you forgot the actual reason i defended glowball. which is that she WASNT EVEN SCUM!!! AND I DIDNT THINK THAT SHE WAS SCUM!! does any of this make sense if i am town?

No, not really, because a town-lane didn't know glowball was town.

By the way, a) and b) aren't exclusive; you can say whatever you like about moving on, but that doesn't mean it was going to happen. Could be empty words from a scum, who can now (after a mislynch) do what you're doing: 'I knew she was town!'.

why would it need to make sense if you were town? it was in the sense that you are scum. wasnt meant to make sense if you were town.

As long as you're not starting from the assumption that I'm scum, then going on to 'prove' that I'm scum from there.

did i misread this as you'd be keeping it in mind as you make your case on me and decide who to vote? as in looking into it? cause whatever you meant, i wasn't very assured. this was talking about the case on mothrax by the way. you obviously didnt keep it in mind when you were deciding who to vote. which is exactly what i said. why would you? you alread know his alignment. and mine. what exactly were you keeping in mind? and did you keep it in mind?

I meant I'd make a case on you, then decide whether it was strong enough to justify a vote on you, or otherwise (probably) vote for mothrax. Going through your ISO, I'm plenty convinced that you're worthy of voting; since I didn't mention mothrax in comparison to the case, the tacit implication is that any reason for voting mothrax is overshadowed by the reasons for voting you.

[Supreme Overlord]

Did you or did you not come up with something for mothrax. Did you do anything as far as keeping him in mind?

I didn't come up with anything new. After making my case on you, I compared it to my opinion on mothrax (mainly that he hasn't done much of use yet, but I'm waiting on him to generate some content today); then decided that you were worthy of my vote. That's what I meant about keeping him in mind; being aware that he was an option if I decided you weren't all that scummy.

You said the one kill was almost completely scum driven. Do you have any suggestions as to who wasn't town that was helping drive the wagon?

Actually, I said that the wagon was almost completely town-driven. Thunder and I were the main ones pushing the wagon, and I think he's town. Most of the people who jumped on had glowball in their top suspects, for fairly valid reasons. Things get shadier as deadline approaches (because letting a deadline no-lynch occur is not good for scum if they get caught), so I don't think your's and Maruchan's votes say too much on your alignments.


MrTrow, can you comment on lane's case on Maruchan (post 550)?

White knighting

What does this term mean?

To elaborate; it's when a scum player defends a town player in the hopes of making other townies who are attacking them look bad. If the townie flips, the scum player can then be made to look good after having a correct 'read'.

And Amrun, while it may seem obvious to you who else you suspect, it doesn't hurt to let us know explicitly. It makes your thought processes more transparent, and provokes thought in everyone else as to who to keep an eye on.

<-- Probably still decent advice, but not specific to this situation.

[Supreme Overlord]

I'm going on V/LA for the next three weeks; I should be able to keep up for two weeks, not sure about the third.

Before I head off, I'll give you my current list of reads:

Town-ish:

thunderweilder - pretty much carried over from yesterday. Still observant.
saulres - I'm getting more and more impressed by saulres' play; he's thinking and questioning well.
Maruchan - preventing a no-lynch (or the possibility of one) and general wariness of PR claims puts Maruchan here.
Amrun - now glowball's out of the picture, I think Amrun and I are mostly on the same page.
Hoppster - Hasn't said all that much today, and while I'm (still) not sold on his mothrax case, I'm happy that he's honest with it.

Neutral:

RoboThor - dropped down because I'm not sure where they stand right now.
MrTrow - My read on him has improved now that he's doing stuff, but I don't really like his Maruchan case.
Auckmid - Said he would post every day. LIES. Next to no read on him.

Scummy:

mothrax - ... hurry up and do something.
lane - I've made this case.


Saulres, can you either expand your case on Maruchan (if he's still your top suspect) or make a case/agree with the point someone's already made on someone else?