Open 337: Twin Trap (Game Over)

[Isa]

confirm/

amidoinitrite

[Isa]

VOTE: pinkfloyd because he hammered everyone put at L-1 in my last Open game.

[Isa]

Well almost everyone, two out of three.

[Isa]

Hey, wagons are cool. I'm gonna advise everyone not to put Collyer at L-1 though, however tempting it may be, because I still don't trust pinkfloyd not to hammer. >_>

[Isa]

I also propose a soft claim of if you are town or mafia. I will start.

I claim TOWN.

"Oh hey, discussion is too much about me...I need some easy town points and another subject. Soft claim whether town or mafia? Eh, it'll do."

[Isa]

The above is a good post.

Neil, Thomas, neither of you are voting someone. Join this wagon. In fact, everyone else, you're just wasting your vote on the RVS, so gather round.

[Isa]

That's one early claim, and at L-2? Why did you claim?

I am not a fan of Neil's initial attack on Bv, but I dislike Bv's response even more. I'm eagerly awaiting the response from Bv, because in no way do I consider what Neil said to be "textbook scum play".

Also we have four players needing prods at the moment. No me gusta.

• Votecount 1-3
  
  
  
  pinkfloyd
  - (2)
  Isa
  ,
  Thomas
  
  
  Isa
  - (1)
  pinkfloyd
  
  
  Collyer
  - (1)
  princesskdw
  
  
  Thomas
  - (1)
  BobbyDrakeIceman
  
  
  princesskdw
  - (1)
  Collyer
  
  
  bv310
  - (1)
  malpascp
  
  
  Neil1113
  - (1)
  bv310
  
  
  
  Not Voting:
  
  
  neil1113
  
  
  
  Notes
  
  
• With
  9
  alive, it takes
  5
  to lynch
  
• The deadline for Day 1 is Sunday October 9th, 12:00PM UTC

[Isa]

I think you're nitpicking a bit over details, Collyer. Neil brings up some very solid points versus Bv and I don't see anything inherently scummy coming from him.

Anyway, UNVOTE: . Standard is to claim at L-1, not at L-2, and usually you shouldn't claim unless someone states that they are willing to hammer (or you're playing with a quickhammerer ), but oh well.

[Isa]

Thomas, Pinkfloyd, thoughts on Collyer/Neil debate?

[Isa]

Well, the exchange, the arguing...semantics.

[Isa]

I've played games like these on another site (with Thomas. btw) where activity has been as low as in this game and I always try to up the pace by asking questions. No idea if I'd do the same as scum - in all my finished games online (6 of them), I've only been town.

I've already said that I believe you to be very touchy over details (though at this point in the game it's actually good) and that the Neil/bv debate isn't pleasing me. Neil sure brings up better points than bv though.

Post 40 was as serious as you can get during RVS - not very. I certainly didn't expect the wagon to result in a claim however, which was a very unneeded one if you ask me.

[Isa]

Top post on every page.

[Isa]

Cav, why does it bother you that I have taken a stance in the debate between Bv and Neil?

[Isa]

Prod dodge before I get the prod. Content later

[Isa]

Why does Neil convince you so much more than Bv?

Because #58 is a fantastic post that I agree with almost to the last letter.
The "textbook scum play" post by Bv helped early on to put him in a negative light, and after said #58, I think it's clear that Neil comes from a town POV. Reading Bv's reply in #87 shows that his case on Neil is 2/4 "I interpret your post in a different way than you did, but what you say about it is reasonable". The only thing bothering me at all is Neil's will to keep the spotlight on those two, but I don't know if he meant that the rest of us should avoid to discuss their debate or not.

Anyway, pinkfloyd, you're just zooming around and post random nonsense, which you've done for almost the entire game. VOTE: pinkfloyd Where's your thoughts? Stop the active lurking.

[Isa]

Shinki, please explain your vote in that case. Neil is far and away my biggest town read at the moment and there's no way that I'm going to push for his lynch today if you don't supply very convincing reasoning.

...pinkfloyd, really? You have no thoughts at all about Neil, who seems to be the focus of the entire game so far?

[Isa]

Noted that pinkfloyd thinks we have almost 50 posts of just fluff.

Everyone, why aren't you voting Pinkfloyd?

[Isa]

First things first: I've been V/LA since Friday and I will be low on content this entire week up until Friday, when I leave again and will be on V/LA once again.

The hammer on Pinkfloyd came out of the blue indeed - but he was a waste of a slot for town. I play this game to have fun and I don't have a lot of fun with players like pinkfloyd when he is playing like he did in this game. He was the best lynch yesterday, we only had a few days remaining when the hammer fell and the only other player that could have been lynched was Neil, and there's no way you could have gotten me to lynch him.

That said, what was your line of thought when you put down the hammer, Neil?

[Isa]

VOTE: Fakinha

Fakinha, what would be a GOOD reason to vote someone when we're 5 days from deadline and there's 6 pages of content? Realize that this game has been absurdly slow. Voting a lurker for calling out others on lurking...eh, I don't like it, but NO I don't find it scummy.
Why is it negative to not focus on a particular person when asking questions? How do you know that his questions are "useless"...because they're asked to multiple persons? Why do you have a town read on Thomas? Does it matter if you are the one to create activity?

L-2.

[Isa]

I feel this is appropriate for the situation.

[Isa]

I'm not "buddying" neil - especially not today, but I was indeed very supportive of him yesterday. My case on Fakinha is completely separated from my read on Neil - she says that it's scummy to avoid starting conversations, yet thinks that when Neil tries to get EVERYONE to answer some questions, it's scummy to ask these questions. And somehow, SHE'S pro-town for wanting to start discussions and Neil pointing out that what she did was actually downplaying the importance of discussion makes him scummy? I don't buy that and neither should anyone else, regardless of read on Neil.

Also...

V/LA Friday through Sunday.

[Isa]

Honestly, at this point, I am willing to abandon the game. Not replace out, just flat out abandon. There's no point in continuing the game if we need to replace more than half of the currently living players.

Also, back from V/LA.

[Isa]

Well, still around. If 3/6 players ask for replacement I am out though.

[Isa]

WHAT.

No, that was hammer.

ohhowimad.jpg

[Isa]

Aaaah, DWave replaced the previous voter...my bad.

Everyone voting Neil should take a look at Fakinha's opening of day 2 and tell me how that is pro-town. I've already summarized my case, but I'll quote it for you to read it again:

My case on Fakinha is completely separated from my read on Neil - she says that it's scummy to avoid starting conversations, yet thinks that when Neil tries to get EVERYONE to answer some questions, it's scummy to ask these questions. And somehow, SHE'S pro-town for wanting to start discussions and Neil pointing out that what she did was actually downplaying the importance of discussion makes him scummy? I don't buy that and neither should anyone else, regardless of read on Neil.

[Isa]

"WAGON!"
"Hey dude, that's not townish at all. Consider these poi-"
"WAGON! LOLUSUCK DIE SCUM"

Are you serious?

Also, #181 and #183...what

UNVOTE:
VOTE: DeltaWave

Also, this is interesting:

By the way, that's the excuse that every scum uses but anti-town does not necessarily mean scummy.

The fact is, you acted about as anti-town as it gets yesterday.

Is Neil scummy or anti-town?

Neil, this was drenched earlier, but it has been bought up by many people before me - why did you not push for us to answer your questions you asked by the end of day 1? Did they become irrelevant for you? This is my main concern with you right now.

[Isa]

Scum tends to be anti-town.

Because he doesn't strike me as scummy at all. You give him flak for hammering, which is the only thing I can see on him that could be considered scummy, but only out of context - the hammer came with roughly 4 days until deadline, activity was extremely low, there were only two votes out not on Pinkfloyd, one on Neil and one on me. No new wagon would rise and finally Pinkfloyd was acting in a horribly anti-town manner, that made his lynch more or less necessary at one point or another. Can you imagine having him in LyLo and what a disaster it would be? (FYI - I just finished a game with PF where he was in LyLo as town. He selfhammered.) Scum would never, ever choose him as their NK.

Now, can you please put up your case against him in easy points for me to read, without hiding it behind "You eat rope", "You must die" and "Your arguments suck"?

[Isa]

EBWOP: The hammer, and the questions not being followed up upon.

Neil, the way I see it, when you ask questions, you commit yourself to follow up upon them, at least partly. Were they so game-irrelevant that they weren't worth following up upon, or were they all nulled by the start of a new day?

[Isa]

DeltaWave - so it's all about his case on you that makes him scummy? I mean, your third paragraph clearly doesn't mention the hammer at all, especially such phrases as "couldn't resist dropping the hammer on a townie"...nevermind previous posts where you clearly mention the hammer.

misrepping me by saying I misrepped you is interesting, especially given that you say I misrep you when this is what happens:

1. I ask you to present your case and defends the hammer.
2. You point me to an earlier post.
3. You say I misrep you because in said earlier post, the hammer was not mentioned, when it in fact was.

[Isa]

Aaah...nevermind. When you said "the phrases you're criticizing" I thought you meant the hammer.

You certainly didn't rep me though, considering how you ended with "Nice try on the misrep."

[Isa]

Aaah...nevermind. When you said "the phrases you're criticizing" I thought you meant the hammer.

You certainly didn't rep me though, considering how you ended with "Nice try on the misrep."

Don't misrep my rep where I repped that when you repped that I misrepped, that was a misrep.

Now you're just getting silly. =p

Thomas, Bv, Collyer...I wanna hear your thoughts. Especially Bv who just seems to lurk and lurk...he has posted in other threads during the period that got him prodded.

[Isa]

Okay town, this is pathetic.

Thomas, we're almost ten pages into the game and you've only managed to develop one stable read - well, to be honest all your other reads are stable, they've been "null". Get it together...are you honestly that clueless?

[Isa]

Are you saying that you rely on night actions or flat out horrible play by scum to be able to get reads? You have been tunneling since you started the game, only interacting with Neil on your own command - the contacts you've made with everyone else has been reactive. Frankly, you're tunneling more than I've done, by far. Also a fun thing - you're saying that Fakinha is suspicious for agreeing with you on everything, when it is actually the other way around. You certainly did not start the push on him.

Collyer - it seems to me that you're saying that "If Neil is town, Isa is scum" - consider a scenario where Neil is lynched and flips scum. Would you still pin me down as scum for the same reasons as if he'd flip town? You seem to be speculating a lot in Neil-town but you're not really giving out your thoughts on what happens if he'll flip scum.

Neil, I want more interaction from you - your last posts have been AtE at best and the ones before that have been answers to my questions. You too are tunneling now. What's your read on everyone not named DeltaWave or Fakinha? Also why are you still voting Fakinha over DeltaWave?

Bv needs replacement or a new prod. He is making it impossible for us to get a read down on him.

[Isa]

http://mafiascum.net/forum/search.php?a ... 9&sr=posts

Actually this just makes me angry. He has refused to post in this thread despite promising to, yet at this very moment he's running around talking about books on the site?

Come ON Bv. Don't be poor lurkerscum.

[Isa]

/prodded. Will get some thoughts up this weekend.

You said this, which did not happen. Not anything about when you'd have time.

That said, grades are indeed more important.

[Isa]

I've had my scumtunnels on DeltaWave and Fakinha, while more of a towntunnel on Neil. No denying.

My question went out to you and not DeltaWave because you're the one in this game who expands his thoughts the most on most of us, but hardly considered what would happen to your read on me if one of your apparent main suspects flips scum, while you've speculated far more in him flipping town, making it seem to me like you KNOW that he'll flip town. Furthermore, DeltaWave actually already said that if Neil flips town, he'd look at Fakinha, implying that he wouldn't have a scumread on me. Granted, it wasn't written outright, but I think it is a fair assumption.

You actually boil it down to this: Whatever Neil flips, I am scum? Yes I know that you're not using the word "scum" to describe me, but face it, "it won't look good for me" is just a rewriting of "you will be pinned as scum".

DeltaWave speculates on one person, Neil. You speculate a lot. It was more interesting to cover you rather than him, and DeltaWave hasn't posted as much about what Day 3 will bring us if Neil flips town/scum except for "I will go for X/Y". You've covered one end of that spectra, but not the other. I wanted a clarification.

I put down a different meaning in the word "buddying", I think. When I think of buddying, I think of befriending someone, not supporting. I've been supporting Neil throughout the game (his later play has been poor though), but I haven't tried to befriend him.

[Isa]

I still believe Neil is town. I am not as die-hard convinced as I was yesterday, but I still have him as a town read. This has changed due to the massive amount of AtE he has pulled out today and the lack of following up upon his questions from day 1. The hammer had poor timing, but I don't see it as scummy.

Judging by day 1 only, if you skip the hammer, was there really anyone willing to lynch Neil? By the end of the day, only Collyer (and Shinki, partly) seemed to be willing to vote Neil.

Anyway...time is running out. I will support the lynch on DeltaWave or Fakinha today - either works, but I'm more willing to lynch DeltaWave if I may choose between the two. If anyone wants to push any other last-minute wagons, please do so NOW. We only have four days and the pace of this game isn't fast enough for us to drag it down even further.

[Isa]

Collyer, you're certainly not making it easy for me to guess who you'd vote for. You haven't put down a single vote this entire game. My guess was taken from your arguments with Neil yesterday. If you want to complain about me making bad guesses, why don't you make it easier for me to guess? In fact, why haven't you bothered voting once? YOU are the one that seems to come off as willing to lynch anyone (except Thomas and Bv).

I encourage people to get their shit together so that we're not looking at a No Lynch at the end of the day, which would only bring us to MyLo.

[Isa]

EBWOP: Well, outside of the RVS at least, you haven't voted.

[Isa]

just in case you are town.

So he is a scumread of yours?

[Isa]

scumREAD. Don't dodge the question.

[Isa]

You know, it's a good thing to find townreads, even if you weren't aware, it's true. You're implying that you only have scumreads and nullreads, is that true?

[Isa]

I asked you for a scumread though.

[Isa]

*about a scumread.

[Isa]

DW - evaluate your play and how it differs from Fakinha's, and how your play makes you town while Fakinha's play makes him scum.

[Isa]

Fakinha, is it pro-town to constantly be on mislynches, and pro-scum to not actively lynch town?
My answer is that it's not pro-town to be on mislynches and it is not pro-scum to prevent the lynching of a townie. Do you disagree?

What's your read on DeltaWave? What do you base it on?

[Isa]

Thomas, are you serious? Would I look better if Neil flipped scum?

Anyway, Fakinha...you're digging your own grave.

VOTE: Fakinha
This is now a 1v1. Your only "case" on me is that the person I didn't mislynch the person you mislynched.

[Isa]

Mod: REPLACE bv310.

Thomas, why is Delta null? Also, I ask you again to say why I look scummy because Neil flipped town - you imply that I wouldn't if he'd flip scum.

[Isa]

Uh, while I /do/ support you voting Fakinha (though you're not at the moment), you might wanna rethink what you just posted, because it doesn't make sense to me.

[Isa]

Thomas, stop trying to skate by. Activate yourself.

DeltaWave, how sure of Fakinhascum are you?

[Isa]

Fakinha: I haven't gotten ANY town-cred for defending Neil. Not during day 1, not during day 2, not during day 3. I defended Neil because I didn't think he was as likely to be scum as you/DeltaWave, NOT because of potential town-cred. I mean, it was pretty obvious all along that everyone attacked me for taking his side. If I was scum and wanted your town-cred, I'd turn around slowly and join the bandwagon.

Neil had great defenses to your attacks that you, DW and Thomas mainly ignored. I've played with Thomas earlier and I know that he loves his buzz words such as "WIFOM" and "OMGUS" without thinking more about it. I did expect something more from you and DW though, but it was a lot of the same. "NO THAT'S OMGUS LOL" seemed to be all that went through DW's head - I don't know what went through yours though seeing as you were happy to just coast by and let DW take all the questions from me, Neil and Collyer. The most amusing part is this though:

Post a lot, people

You tell us to post more, when YOU were the one skating by with low activity and not explaining your case?

[Isa]

I agree that his defense became more tilted towards AtE at one point, but that was probably because of his frustration having to explain everything more than twice to an audience who didn't listen and just said "OMGUS!". Is it too much to ask for if you want to look beyond that?

[Isa]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 6#p3505826
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 6#p3528206
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 5#p3543695
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 5#p3544455

There.

[Isa]

I agree that his defense became more tilted towards AtE at one point, but that was probably because of his frustration having to explain everything more than twice to an audience who didn't listen and just said "OMGUS!". Is it too much to ask for if you want to look beyond that?

Here we go again.
At least, define what OMGUS means for you.

Dive deeper into your thoughts this time around and actually state WHY each case is misleading and not true. Remember that you're looking at the posts of a confirmed town, so twisting words will only make you look worse.

[Isa]

Welcome to the game, HermanoBro.

I am interested in hearing what parts of the Neil case you found valid.

[Isa]

If you can't find a case on him other than his way of speaking, well let me just tell you that I had a hard time as well.

During day 1, you can take a look at #58. That's a solid town post that gave me a strong town read on him - along with his other posts, but that post stood out. This stayed with me until the end of the day - obviously I wouldn't vote him there. This also carried on through day 2 although its importance became less important. During day 2, Neil made solid cases and I didn't see any reason to retract my previous read - the hammer wasn't bad, the only thing I had a slight issue with was that he didn't follow up upon the questions he asked during the end of day 1, along with AtE usage that annoyed me, but those are very minor points.

What do you think of Fakinha's play during day 2?

[Isa]

It's not because he was confirmed town that his posts are the truth.

SO WHAT CHANGED?

This post certainly doesn't hit me well.

[Isa]

Why unvote your top suspicion in LyLo? Looking for alternatives...?

I disagree - the watcher should not claim unless threatened by a lynch. While it is true that he will become confirmed town, that also means that he will die tonight if we get a successful lynch in. The only thing it does is limiting the lynch pool for today by 1 - but despite you unvoting, this is in my eyes still a 1v1 between you and me. Scum did not quickhammer either of us, so there's two options in my opinion:

1. One of us is scum
2. HermanoBro is scum along with DeltaWave/Thomas - this meant that while scum technically COULD have quickhammered, they didn't because HermanoBro only recently got here and hasn't been able to make plans with his partner.
However, I will not unvote you, meaning that I WILL allow for the very slight possibility of HermanoBro being scum with DeltaWave/Thomas. We will see quickly if they're scum or not...but I do not believe so. You and DeltaWave are my top suspects, and I see it as very likely that you're the scum team - however, I think that you have a good chance of being scum with both Thomas and HermanoBro, because there's nothing in your ISO that clearly states otherwise. Therefore, you're still a prime subject of being scum in my eyes, and I will keep my vote on you. And because of that, the watcher should NOT claim.
(I may or may not be the watcher - my previous statement was made as general as possible, making it sound like I claimed not-watcher, but I have NOT claimed yet.)

"What changed" refers to the fact that you yesterday hardly thought Neil's posts were the truth but now seem to do so. Why change your opinion?

[Isa]

DeltaWave, what stops you from voting?

[Isa]

Then why am I doing your job by doing all the scumhunting? Your ISO as of lately is just coasting along - "Yeah Fakinha is still looking scummy" every now and then, but nothing that forces a reaction from ANYONE.

[Isa]

If you think that's needed, go ahead. Don't stall the game with fluff in the meanwhile though. >_> I mean, surely during the past six days you must have been able to create SOMETHING resembling content without the need to reread the whole game...

[Isa]

[Isa]

So Fakinha and partly Collyer (who was impossible to get to know where he was heading in his reads) were all right on me when they accused me for buddying up to a town-player. Having Neil lynched was the best thing that could happen during day 2, and I'm glad that me and Thomas taking opposite stances on everything made sure that we never got suspected as a team - IF I'd be lynched, I think Thomas would be in trouble, but with clever night kills it could work out.

Collyer was killed because THAT GUY WAS THE BEST TOWN SLOT YOU COULD ASK FOR. I was always on my toes when replying to him, trying not to slip up because he'd jump at me for everything I'd say and refuse to let go, not because he was stubborn but because it was legitimate. The only reason he wasn't killed night 1 was that I was 100% sure he'd be watched and I could have been tracked, so it was much easier to just settle for Cav, who didn't have any suspicions at all towards anyone, meaning that 1) he wouldn't be protected and 2) he could potentially start something against me day 2.

It was helpful to know that DeltaWave would consider Fakinha scummy if Neil flipped town, and it became even better when Fakinha voted me. Instead of having to focus my attention on the potential scumteam of DeltaWave/Fakinha like I had promoted earlier, I could let DeltaWave act freely and avoid pressuring him - an indirect buddying action if you may, which also worked. DeltaWave didn't seem to consider me scummy at all, all of a sudden. I am confident that in the end, he WOULD vote Fakinha, but HermanoBro taking my side made it easier and quicker than expected.

I am happy with the teamplay that Thomas and I had. It was a strategy developed from the start that we'd take opposite stances on everything - we were always prepared to bus the other one when needed, though we wouldn't do it prematurely. Had I been town, I'd call Thomas out for his lurking - I didn't dare to do that now, because it simply wasn't needed. Nobody paid him any attention whatsoever, which allowed him to skate by easily. I think we complimented each other nicely.

For the record - I am certain that IF I had been town, I'd find Neil pro-town as well, and for the exact reasons I gave. I was probably more stubborn than I'd be if I was town, but I'd have a town read on him.

Overall, good game.

[Isa]

I had myself locked into a town read, but the reason it worked at all today was that it became a two-sided coin - there's no real town motivation behind it, but stating it openly has no scum motivation behind it. Buddying is done for getting town-cred, but I never got ANY for it, which I used to my advantage - I defended my (correct) read and didn't give in, which was advantageous when the flip came. Suddenly I got the needed town-cred from DeltaWave, which was all that I needed.

[Isa]

I don't believe you!

[Isa]

Shouldn't have unvoted me - why did you do that? I don't really understand why.

[Isa]

I am fairly confident it would not.

Fakinha, why didn't you voice any suspicion of Thomas then?

[Isa]

http://www.quicktopic.com/46/H/ed2q4fsnaqYD Scum QT.

[Isa]

All your problems were related to your absolutely horrible activity - sorry for sounding harsh, but don't mod if you can't keep up. Start of day 2 was painful.

Other than that...eh, nothing, but honestly, your lack of activity was really bad.

[Isa]

Collyer, you were absolutely amazing as town and really scary to play against. Take that as a compliment.