Open 607 - Friends and Enemies - Game Over

[Randomnamechange]

Rainbow you are using my nirmal avi
VOTE: ika
5 for 5 as scum in games with me. Well 4 scum and one third party.

[Randomnamechange]

@Mod: Plotinus head of Rainbow Unicat is V/LA until Sunday. not afk though and will still be trying to participate somewhat.

Oh I thought Bella was in this game, but confused about the playerlist. Have fun in your hydra.

[Randomnamechange]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: thecow
And I trust those who trust those who should not be trusted.

[Randomnamechange]

I forgot the lyrics now I need to listen to it again.

[Randomnamechange]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: vedith
L-1
Please don't hammer just yet.

[Randomnamechange]

Vedith: Why no vote?

Randomidget: Why put someone at L-1 if you don't want a hammer yet? What were you aiming for here?

Pressure.

[Randomnamechange]

I wanted to see varidian's reaction and other's reactions.

[Randomnamechange]

I didn't say I didn't want a hammer. I said I didn't want a hammer just yet. I was worried boon would replace in or something, see l-1 and hammer instantly.

[Randomnamechange]

You get more useful reactions from other players because they might slip up as they aren't being focussed on.

[Randomnamechange]

i am scumreading both heads of rainbow unicat.

ika, we need WORDS

WORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDS

there.

no but serious what do you mean?

also NO to that read. i refuse to let you lycnh them on day 1 like i will fight you 1v1 if you try to lynch bella

You have my sword.
Relating ti the l-1, the second person who unvoted me (I think Varian) is probs town as he seemed to genuinely want to figure out the game without lynching this early. A post did ping my scumdar whivh Im going ti find.

[Randomnamechange]

Yeah I actually saw that, I checked some of your early-game posts to compare with how you entered here and thought that might have been the reason.

I do have issues with Thecow's vote, but I'm not scumreading him for it right now. Thecow was able to explain why ika voted, but when Varian- explained it 'better', he switched votes. Thecow, can you elaborate on your thoughtprocess there?

The word I would use to describe would be boredom. The game was not moving, and so I was considering joining the Vedith wagon just to get things moving some more. After Varian- posted his bit, I made up my mind and joined the wagon.

UNVOTE: Vedith
VOTE: randomidget

I'll explain when I get home.

If your explanation is similar to what I'm thinking, I agree, but I'd like to hear your reasoning. I'm not sure I like the "boredom" argument, but I can understand wanting to jump out of the RVS stage.

I'm not worried about the votes on me. A little too easy of a wagon without a real reason, but hey.

Why no vote? Because I haven't got much to go on yet and in recent I have been voted up for random day 1 votes.
I was also unsure of what a Hydra was so that took my focus from other posts as of then. (I'm aware now).

Apart from that, I'm not sure why I would question the votes before my comment so soon.

As for a vote, i'll go with the theory of 3rd vote is always scum.

VOTE: TheCow

Was that vote serious, or are you still RVSing?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: vedith
L-1
Please don't hammer just yet.

Not a fan of this post. He claims he L1-voted for pressure, but asks to avoid the hammer. If he's not going to get hammered without the person responsible (probably) getting lynched tomorrow for it, where's the pressure? It's almost as insignificant as if that were the first vote, if there's no risk of hammer.

The plea to not hammer also feels... Obvious. If you L1 on page two, shouldn't the idea be "don't hammer yet"? You cost the post its pressure by saying that.

VOTE: Random

Mod:

this is my first time playing a hydra, so I'm looking for clarification. Am I allowed to discuss the game with my other head outside the game thread, or am I confined to this space the same as a single player?

-ASP

This feels oppurtunistic. They don't have a reason to vote me, other than thinking what I was doing wasn't well-executed, which isn't a tell. I was likely to draw sone flak and once they saw vedith wasn't being hammered they could've tried to start a wagon on me.

[Randomnamechange]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: a simple hope
my positioning on the Vedith wagon was based off of thinking 'what would BBT do?'

[Randomnamechange]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: a simple hope
my positioning on the Vedith wagon was based off of thinking 'what would BBT do?'

I find the timing of your vote a little off.

I meant to do it in my previous post but forgot.

There is always risk of a derphammer. How is L-1 pressure if the target knows there's not going to be a hammer?

I have said this several times. I didn't not want a hammer. I didn't want an immediate hammer. People don't hammer the moment someone is put at L-1, they let them defend themselves.
PEdit: People don't care if you threaten to put them at L-1.

[Randomnamechange]

There was a decent chance of a wagon forming on me, scum would want to get on early.
Why is everyone scumreading me for a post that wasn't particularly good but was in no way scummy? Only way in which that could be scummy is if vedith was scum, and why would you vote me rather than an existing wagon?
Also rainbow you didn't explain your scumread on me.

[Randomnamechange]

Also rainbow you didn't explain your scumread on me.

I felt you were being overly defensive. I thought it was weird that you felt simple hope was being opportunistic considering their early position on your wagon which was a fairly small wagon so you seemed prematurely upset about it. I think you've spent too much time rehashing the L-1 pressure vote thing and am wondering why you haven't moved on to scumhunting.

heartless86 then why aren’t you voting us?

/burp

we are

so you are, my bad. I missed that when I went back to look.

bella, what are your reads?

Because I know that you have a part of your brain that wants to ignore all reason in favor of your crush on Bellaphant, I will allow you to gather your thoughts and make a read on her. As a sign of good faith, I'll move the vote. I really think sorting this hydra should be one of the top priorities here, and don't give me some procrastinating bullshit about "wait until Day 2" or some such. Do it now.

Bella and I are both strong enough players that not being able to sort us on day 1 makes sense. I don't think I've done anything alignment indicative at all yet. Nothing's come up that I feel i would have reacted to differently if I were scum. Bella and Ika know each other pretty well and they've hydraed together. Ika was dead by the time I replaced into WDPT and I don't think we've played together otherwise so it makes sense he'd be better at sorting her than sorting me.

I actually saw your post in the "Hands with a Name" thread of GTKAS. Your hands look feminine and your nails are well-manicured, so I thought you were a woman.

Apologies if I'm incorrect in that deduction.

Thank you for the explanation. I try to stay on top of who knows what about me and I tend to get a little paranoid if someone knows more than they should because it can indicate pregame chat of some sort. Not just gender stuff (and there are plenty of innocuous reasons why someone might use a pronoun that's why i ask before I start tunnelling) but also people knowing more than they should about my playstyle is something I look out for (people who haven't played with me yet but are not underestimating me despite my fairly recent join date, etc.)

There are also offline reasons why I'm a bit paranoid about infosec but I'm not willing to explain that further.

Spoiler: plotinus' gender

I did come out as "not a boy" in my 1st newbie game because I said something that made another player uncomfortable and i realised she thought I was a man twice her age saying it which would have been creepy, when I'd meant it as an older female bodied person to younger female bodied person interaction, but after that some people did start using she for me but people who hadn't seen that interaction mostly don't, and sometimes I am sometimes okay with people using whatever pronoun, sometimes he is more right and sometimes she is more right and I don't expect people to be able to tell when to use which so they is always okay but I'm female assigned at birth genderqueer and it's the tail end of the dysphoric time of the month and so I'm probably going to overreact to anything that reminds me that I have a body right now.

--Plotinus

I felt the timing and style of the vote was opportunistic, not just the position. I keep re-hashing the L-1 thing because people keep asking me about it.
Also we should PL Ika. Just saying.

[Randomnamechange]

If you want to give reasons other than 35 then that's cool.
Sadly I may have to replace out. Either way I will be

v/LA for a week from sunday

[Randomnamechange]

Please can someone actually give a valid reasob for scumreading me?

I see Anti explaining why he's unvoting and why he can see people voting Montosh. I also see Anti telling us TTH has a problem with 'to be honest' and such, but Montosh didn't use any wording like that before she voted. So I still want TTH to explain her vote.

He actually did in the post directly preceding mine

(and Antihero shows he knows me... >_>)

Mostly

what bothered me was the blanket criticism of the Vedith wagon. Also, I thought his response to you (i.e. soft retaliation without resorting to full-blown OMGUS) was bothersome because of how squishy and noncommittal it was.

Ok.

I'm scumreading randomidget for post 35 (the l-1 vote with "please don't hammer." Thecow came in shortly after placing a vote on him, saying "I'll explain later." So I went ahead and assumed it was the same thing I was thinking and townread him for it (I subscribe to "same mindset = probably same alignment"). But it turns out it was a completely different reason? And cow has been pretty null/lurker otherwise. So idk, there goes that read.

Meanwhile, randomidget has pinged my scumdar on multiple posts now. On phone so formatting quotes is difficult, but the gist is that he seems more concerned with the fact that he's gotten pressured than scumhunting. 112 is particularly bad for this.

About thecow: that's sort of his style, I hope he gets a little easier to figure out after a flip but he's not someone I'm looking to lynch today. Thecow, would you be so kind and share some of your reads with us?
Oh! Game ended. Thecow was town here (and I scum btw, and I was scumreading Thecow there, it was multiball): http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=62638

I agree with you on Random, and so far I've been townleaning on you so I feel rather comfortable sheeping you.
VOTE: Randomidget

I'm now going to be a complete buzzkill and tell you randomidget comes with a very similar caveat.
Cute and Fluffy Mafia

Please engage Antihero directly and in more detail about this cow read.

Good times.

[Randomnamechange]

I'm not replacing out. However, I will be not posting Mich for the next few weeks.
@rainbow unicat don't avoid my question.

[Randomnamechange]

Trick question. There aren't reasons to scumread me. I am usually fairly defensive.

[Randomnamechange]

And once people are aware of their tells they can change them.
In one post you say you thought about what BBT would do. Why is that?

That was a joke. I decided to do that then was reminded of bbt because he does that a lot.

[Randomnamechange]

Depends on the game. This game I would say page 15, as some players like me take longer to establish strong reads.

V/LA till 15th

[Randomnamechange]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: vedith

[Randomnamechange]

Call me crazy, but firebringer reads town to me. I'm chalking up the noise to a playstyle thing and he is putting some reads out there, albeit after being asked to do so.

Regarding randomidget, I'm not sure why people are still getting the idea that it is still for the L-1 vote. He has reacted to pressure on him really scummily, fixating on the fact that he's getting votes for "wrong" reasons? ... and not scumhunting much if at all.

I didn't say that. That was what RU said. I have scumhunted more than seversl players. Explain why my reaction was scummy. You can say anything is scummy but it doesn't matter if you can't explaian why. The reason I fixated on thst qas it was the only actual reason thst has been given.

[Randomnamechange]

UNVOTE: Firebringer

He's given some reads and looks like attempting to scumhunt.

Looking at the other wagons, I don't really see how Vedith is scum. He uses good lynch/bad lynch (http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p7006943)

TheCow kinda confused me with 157, but from what I can get he was on alcohol and made a bad vote. He was V/LA until Sunday, but hasn't posted since.

Random voted Vedith into L-1 quite early in the game, which is possibly scum to me (possibly trying to get a quick lynch or having the target mess up)

I don't see scum having this lack of understanding about what is going on in the thread. Unless it was boonskies.
I am scumhunting just not revealing the results.

[Randomnamechange]

Acceptable answer.

You are definitely town.

I'm not so sure, I've seen anti play like this as scum. TTH tends to scumhunt more than this.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: heartless

[Randomnamechange]

^^
I'm currently on holiday so won't be able to post a lot of content for a bit, so I'm going to go with the flow.

[Randomnamechange]

@wanderer, hope you get better no hard feelings if you have to replace.
This vedith wagon caught me off guard a bit. I came in here with a plan but now I'm confused.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: vedith

You are going to feel pretty silly afterwards
My only fault here is trying to push for more involvement from such a quiet town.

To add to that I've seen this so much from scum.
@heartless could you sign your posts please?

[Randomnamechange]

@wanderer, *hugs*

plot's added everything else

@random, what was your plan? :S

Make a case on vedith which implicated you as a buddy. But I'm pretty certain that is wrong now.

[Randomnamechange]

We have less than 2 days left for this phase so we should really agree on who to lynch. I sort of like where Vedith is going lately and I don't like so much what shaddowez is doing so I prefer my vote on shaddowez. I think his flip will tell us something but I don't want to say what that is until tomorrow.

VOTE: shaddowez

That's useful....you're saying we should agree on who to lynch, and voting for me outside of 3 already existing wagons. Isn't that a bit contradictory?

so i am home. i havent read up much.

does anyone want to give me a quit tibit? i might start isoing later

Ika - what do you think of the existing wagons, if nothing else?

As I said in an earlier post, I'm going to move my vote now in case I'm not able to make it back online before deadline.

Random jumps votes multiple times in RVS with no explanation, joining a wagon each time after the first. His jump on the Vedith wagon brings it to L-1, but makes it a point to ask for no hammer yet. In 44 he says he did it for "pressure", but then says he wanted to see other's reactions in 47 and 61, which looks like him trying to back out of a bad situation.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: a simple hope
my positioning on the Vedith wagon was based off of thinking 'what would BBT do?'

I find the timing of your vote a little off.

I meant to do it in my previous post but forgot.

The two referenced posts were two hours apart...generally when I forget to put something in a post, I just post right afterwards with what I forgot - especially a vote.

Also we should PL Ika. Just saying.

I hate policy lynches - makes for a great scapegoat if the person flips town.

Random then has a few fluff posts before hopping back on the Vedith wagon with no reason, then says he's scumhunting but not revealing the results in 266, which doesn't read as townie to me. Jumps back and forth from the Vedith wagon again with no reason.

All in all, no evidence for what he has been doing, and generally seems scummy with the play of following the town while trying to look like he's doing something.

VOTE: randommidget

1. Please read the thread I'm sick of explaining this.
2. I thought I had voted then realized when I next came on the sight I hadn't
3. This was a joke as just before someone said this was the first time they didn't want to policy lynch ika.
4. My scumhunting is pretty poor day 1 so I follow wagons and sheep to get info I can use later on. I am a notoriously bad day 1 player so I tend to take a backseat.

[Randomnamechange]

Back, haven't read any therefore
VOTE: indicat

[Randomnamechange]

VOTE: unicat
In case that wasn't close enough
This isn't the town Bella I know and like.
PEdit: ssomeone is testy.
UNVOTE:
I went a bit boonskies there. Gonna have a think.
Ika could you explain why if you haven't already

[Randomnamechange]

VOTE: duppin

[Randomnamechange]

Several things that don't make sense to me here. I'll go through them bit by bit:

1. How is Wanderer sheeping Varian to vote a townread in Post 179 a good vote?
   
2. Your townread on me is based on Post 410 which your hydra partner found scummy, Post 431 which you say is logical (what does that even mean?), and Post 529 where I point out several issues I have with Wanderer which directly contradict your reasons for townreading her. I don't understand this flip at all. Did you even read my post before declaring it town?
   
3. I have no clue how you reached your townreads on Firebringer. Half your links about Firebringer don't link back to posts of his. Post 188 and Post 191 were written by DoNotTrustMe. Post 343 was written by Shaddowez. Post 470 was written by Aristophanes. And your links are all broken. What's there to like about Fire's Post 208?
   
4. I can guess that you are talking about Firebringer's reads list as "not terrible" whereas Plotinus had previously attacked it as bad. Why no discussion of this among yourselves earlier?
   
5. Your ika read points out a bunch of things bad about him but then says you townread him for "gut?"
   
6. DoNotTrustMe's posting was terrible yes, but I don't see Shaddowez's Duppin case in Post 428 as lurker pressure. It showed some in-depth thinking. That's what gave me a leaning townread on Shaddowez.

What I like the least about this flip of reads is that they seemed geared to appease Heartless "you wanted heart, and this is it" and possibly appease me. I have a hard time believing that you just went through the game and your reads almost totally flipped around. The way you presented your reads on ika and Firebringer makes me think you are shoehorning them into your townpile despite having better reasons for thinking they are scum than town.

VOTE: Rainbow Unicat

I'm back to this. Anyone townreading Rainbow needs to seriously explain why with actual reasons. "They give me townfeels," "I'll read them tomorow," or "I like their walls" isn't going cut it.

Hi Wingback,

This slot is a hydra: plot's had the reins mainly, but I think we were looking at associative and unfortunately we disagree big time around one read: the heartless slot. Which has led to some confusion. Ika and Firebringer are more gut - look at there content compared to others and ofc I've got less of a justification on them.

In terms of your questions:

1) She justifies her reasons for sheeping. It's not just 'oooo, shiny', I feel there's thought in it.
2) I don't have to agree with you to think you have a legitimate thought process. What I'm looking for is a progression of ideas and someone's words having follow through. Your post has this.
3) True, some of my numbers are off by a few, sorry! Like you said, 470 should be 474, etc. 208 is pushing Ari about his reads, and is a continuation from 200.
4) I like most of his town-reads. He has issues with shadows. It's not miles apart from where my head is.
5) in terms of shadow's push, there's nothing really in it. It's 70% about the lack of content/fluff/lurking, and about 30% lack of follow through. Also, what is 'Additionally, 383 comments regarding not liking the Rainbow train at all, which only had 2 people on it, one of which was Vedith.' meant to prove?

VOTE: duppin

Random, talk to me Throw some questions my way.

-b

Ok then:
Why are you town?
Do you thimk it would be useful to perform wagon analysis?
What is your read on wingback?
What wagons are you willing to join?

Alestorm was amazing!

Anyways .. Will be able to post decently in about 12-20 hours. I'm a little sorry.

I'm jealous

[Randomnamechange]

Morde zilean bot lane hype
I.e. Prodge

[Randomnamechange]

Fucking lost it @heartless

[Randomnamechange]

@Random: Did you notice Rainbow hasn't answered your questions yet?
Rereading Random's iso I think I want to give him a townlean. Looking back on things it doesn't seem so bad as I initially thought.
Random, are you still in sheeping-to-get-info-mode? Have you gotten anything from yesterdays voting? Where do you stand on Rainbow? What do you think of Wingback's questioning?
.

I'm doing a bit of analysis rn.
Bella hasn't answered or posted since then. So I'm givimg some leeway.
I'm going to stop sheeping soonish
Rainbow is tricky. If Bella had posted more today I could tell you based on their reactions after leading a mislynch. Will look into wingback