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I think what SensFan is saying in post 79, is that he orignally started being able to vote only letters. (that's why he left out the mime bit that xyl put at the top of the list).
Then, he PMed the mod saying that the whole letter was thing too complicated, but was told that words would be too easy, and there wouldn't be any point in a PR.
After all that, either the mod let him have the mime thing to make things easier, or he decided to exploit a loophole since the mod never said he couldn't mime his actions.-
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How is lynching SensFan helpful to town? As far as I can tell, that's nothing more than a OMGPRS lynch. Yes, it's annoying, but he hasn't actually done anything scummy unless you can prove he's actually faking his PR.
That said, we've just spent two whole pages talking about nothing but SensFan. I'm going tovote:xylYou're pushing really hard for a SensFan lynch for no good reason that I can see. I don't have a clear read, but you look to me like scum going for an easy target.-
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@ CES, xyl, jeru, elias.
Okay, I give that he hasn't contributed much, I can't quite deny that, but every townie we lynch puts us one step closer to a mafia win. I just think we need a more concrete reason to lynch someone. He hasn't done anything particularly pro-town, sure, but until he actually does something decidedly scummy, I'm against a sens lynch.
Also, I'll be out of town for a few days. I'll try to go online when I can, but no guarantees. =(-
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@xyl - My vote on sensfan was a random vote. That's why i unvoted when i on the next post when i realized it put him dangerously close to a lynch.
@
Not to me. It just means that I can't be certain he's town, but I'm not willing to jump to the conclusion that he's scum just because I'm not absolutely sure he's town.cogito ergo scum wrote:Isn't 'not doing anything protown' scummy? At least I think it is.-
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Just a question. SF, you can talk in third person right? Rather than just copy pasting quotes, why don't you just
Sensfan thinks that, '.............' and so he decides to vote:john doe
It'd be a lot easier than what you're doing so far, but for some reason, you've stopped doing the whole third person thing.-
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That was completely uncalled for. Lovo wasn't suspicious enough to warrant a vote. Besides, you were never even suspicious of Lovo to begin with. Your only thoughts on lovo were:
Why the hammer?Joubert wrote:I'd say it's not much because Lovo may or may not be behaving scummy, but more like the sudden wind of change that's shifting the spotlight away from SF, seemingly...
vote:joubert-
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Heh. This game got active again all of a sudden. I'm willing to bet most of the scum were on the lovo wagon. It moved too fast. The game reads to me like they tried to go for an SF lynch, but then the momentum died down, they got impatient, so they wagoned lovo instead.
There was no serious reason for the lovo lynch. At least, not reasons that would have convinced townies to push it to a lynch. I could buy a wagon of maybe 4 people on lovo as being made of townies, but the lynch happened too fast for the town to have been swayed. I'm putting my money down on joubert and xyl being scum at least. Maybe cave.
And joubert's defense in post 412 is horrible. So what if you were on the SF wagon as well? How does that justify hammering lovo? Besides, your post is more deflecting the spotlight from yourself to korts than an actual defense. I'm leaving my vote on you till you're lynch.-
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I don't think that we should have posted our targets. At this point, scum could just fake-claim roleblocker and say that they blocked that person too.
Circular blocking won't work. By khel's rules in post 1, every other person at the end of a line ending with a non-roleblocker(fakeblocker or scum or vanilla) will not block.-
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@jeru. I don't support a mass claim. It's bad enough that we had to narrow the field down for the scum by a large number of people claiming roleblocker. You could argue that the PRs are exposed enough already that it won't matter, but I disagree.
Also, we can't figure out anything from the pattern in circular blocking. Nothing in the mod posts indicate whose blocks worked. You won't be able to deduce anything from having everyone forming a circle and blocking.-
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I like cavebear's plan the most so far.
I propose we use random.org to decide pairings and who gets unpaired. That or we take votes like korts suggested. I don't like how ces made himself unpaired. Also, I think we need to keep SF alive. A lot of d2 discussion already stated how he's probably cop so I won't repeat the arguments. If we don't believe that SF is cop, we have no sure way to catch scum whichever plan we use. We'll just be stalling the game permanently.-
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What I'm against is any one person or small group deciding the pairings. I think the unpaired person should be chosen by vote. For the others, we'll mostly be choosing at random among ourselves anyway. Random assignment guarantees no scum can make a suggestion that pairs him with his buddy.ting wrote:That or we take votes like korts suggested.-
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I've been rereading, and I'm willing to believe that both Korts and CES are town. I propose we lynch Jeru and make 2 pairing plans. If Jeru turns out scum, we pair ourselves and leave SF free so he can investigate. If Jeru turns out town, we leave either Korts or CES free and have the other block SF to prevent a nightkill.
I don't think we should lynch SF because like everyone's already said, we have more to lose by lynching him, and more to gain by keeping him alive if he's cop. It's better to confirm him by lynching Jeru.
Also, we'll never agree with each other on the pairings if we all make suggestions. I think we should let either CES or Korts decide, since everyone's more or less agreed that they're both town.-
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I'm willing to believe it actually. As it is, more than HALF the players are town roleblockers. That alone makes the town powerful, especially since we ended up finding out right after day 1. At the moment, we as the town already have the power to permanently whack the mafia nk ability.jeru wrote:I agree that, if the odds of me being scum were the same as SF being scum, that you have more to lose by lynching the claimed cop, but in the situation we're in, it's simply preposterous not to lynch him today. Do actually read the thread and deal with the information we have at our disposal. The odds are far from equal. Do I have to say it again - PR IN A MINI-NORMAL DOES NOT HAPPEN. Period. Honestly, I'm going to spend some time looking through the rules and see if it's even permitted.
It only makes sense that if we have any other role, like a cop, he'd have to be at some sort of disadvantage. The town would be way over powered otherwise. Heck, even cop-less we're already more powerful than town in other games.
Also, just to bring up an old argument, SF as scum would have no reason to fake a PR. As it is, it pushed him to the spotlight and made him the easy day 1 lynch. Not a very good job as scum if he really is scum.-
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Oh, also, if you turn up town and SF is in fact lying scum, the moment we block each other in pairs, we'll end up locking him and the rest of the scum. No one else will die from nk. We'll be able to just pick everyone apart day 3, and plan night blocking strategies so that we'll either keep the scum permanently in stasis, or make it so that they can't nk without raising a red flag.-
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I disagree. Besides what cavebear said about other roles unbreaking the game, I think that SF having a PR is to his favor. He has nothing to gain faking it, and there'd be no reason for a scum or a vanilla to have a PR.jerub wrote:Regardless, the odds of a cop being in this game are precisely zero. It's already broken enough, Khel wouldn't completely break it.
@cave - I blocked joubert too.
I disagree about the no lynch. I think we need to lynch jeru, just to make it an odd number and also to confirm SF. I'm with cave that there's a possibility that SF is scum bussing Jeru, but I don't think so. Jeru wasn't under that much flak day1. If SF is scum, he just makes it worse for his team to put Jeru under the spotlight.
Also, I disagree with this. This is the reason I considered random assignment as viable. If we all throw in our ideas on the pairings, it's possible that a scum might make a suggestion to pair himself with another scum, and that would screw us over. I'd rather doing it randomly than collectively deciding, but I've been swayed to the opinion that either Korts or CES should do the pairing.we pair who we collectively think is scummiest with the one we collectively think is least likely to be scum,-
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@CES. Why would you rather lynch SF than Jeru? You can make assumptions on the other's alignment regardless of who we lynch.
We need a concensus of whether we lynch Jeru or SF. Any plan we make won't work if we can't even agree who to lynch. Jeru, by your own reasons, we'd still win anyway if we lynch you and you're town.-
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@ces. I'm sorry, but I just don't see it. Maybe it's because I don't have that much experience playing with SF or maybe just experience in general, but I don't see how you're so certain he's scum.
@jou. I say most-townish-choose. I only brought up random because I prefer it over the thought of everyone getting a say.-
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When did you change your mind, and why CES?ces wrote:
Hmm.. That's much more likely to me, at least.SensFan wrote:
Vote: O
Vote: O
Vote: P
Vote: S
Vote: J
Vote: E
Vote: R
Vote: U
Vote: G
Vote: U
Vote: I
Vote: L
Vote: T
Vote: Y
K, so we lynch Jerub. That'd leave 9 of us. 4 pair, with SF being the odd man out. Even though I still don't believe him, I guess this is the best course of action.-
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Oh, also, for reference, the night blocks, if no one lied, are:
ces blocked elias
korts blocked ces
xyl blocked korts
imat blocked elias
jeru blocked joubert
joub blocked imat
cave blocked jou
ting blocked jou
shanba blocked ???
Existing chains:
xyl blocked korts blocked ces blocked elias = elias blocked by ces
[jeru,ting,cave] blocked joub blocked imat blocked elias = elias blocked by imat.
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To the people who prefer an SF lynch,assuming3 scum, the current ratio of town to scum is 7:3. If we lynch jeru and find that he's town, we can lynch SF d3, and end up with a ratio of 6:2, or 3:1 if you simplify.
3:1 is still a better ratio than 7:3 if we mislynch today. Also, with 6 townies and 2 scum d3, we can afford to make up to 4 mislynches since we can perma block the nk. That gives us very good odds even if SF is lying and we believe him for today.-
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Meat lovers.
Yes. I've actually been rereading CES's posts. I don't think he's as town as korts is, but I think an rb would have been more likely to have picked it up than a scum would've.I'm not comfortable with calling CESc as closed-to-confirmed just based on him guessing at an all-RB setup earlier than most. In fact, if Jerub is scum, I'd think of him as scummier-looking than most. Also, I don't want to see any of the trio of CESc, Xyl and Joubert in the same pairs. Other than that, I think most pairs would be fine.
I had suspicions of xyl day 1, and still do, but he was the first to actually claim rb. At the point when xyl claimed, there was no clear indication yet that we had an all rb setup. It could be the scum have safe claims, or maybe with 2 rb's dead and korts claiming, xyl figured it would be a safe enough claim to make. I don't know.
I had my vote on Joubert as soon as I saw him hammering, and am still suspicious. For reference, the people on the lovo wagon were:
joubert, korts, xyl, cave, sens, shanba.
We probably should not forget about them. Except for korts and sens.-
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Yes, you voted xyl. Lovo only had 6 votes on him at the peak of his wagon unless I'm mistaken. That confuddles me. Will this affect the game or do we just play on?
Yes, I took his post as fishing for your role, not him implying that he is also a roleblocker. That's why I still think you're the towniest, but picking it up seems like something an rb would be more likely to do. I still think CES might be town though. His not believing lovo's claim after he was hammered was what I was thinking, and is similar to you going, 'Actually, lovo, I'm a little surprised by your claim. I mean, you must be telling the truth, no need to lie anymore, so I'm not saying I doubt you, just, you know, surprised. 'korts wrote:Actually the precise quote of CESc is "@ Korst: Are you a roleblocker too?" This, to my mind, doesn't quite sound like he (CESc) is RB, but that he wants to find out if I'm a roleblocker like lovo was. He isn't implying, as far as I can tell, an all-RB setup, just that there could be multiple roleblockers. I don't think CESc is really confirmed with this.
I've been rereading everyone's post lovo-lynch posts.
Yes. I thought it was funny that you agreed with Xyl's pairings, that's why I mentioned that I didn't want xyl paired with SF, but you didn't seem to have a problem with it.korts wrote:Also, I have previously pointed out that I suspect CESc and Xyl the most along with jerubbaal, and now I've looked at Xyl's pairings again, this reinforces me in the belief that they are scum, at least two of the three of them. If you notice, Xyl has himself paired with CESc in the event of SF being Cop, and has CESc unpaired and himself blocking SF in the event of SF turning up scum. Sorry I didn't notice this earlier, I just skimmed through the pairings.
Yes, but Xyl claimed for himself and CES, that's 5 RBs. That's nearly half the town, he'd be pushing his luck as scum claiming rb on a guess that we might all be rbs. If he's scum, then it's either the scum have been given safe claims, or they all decided to claim rb n1.korts wrote:I think Xyl's a bright guy, it would've been fairly easy to guess that the town wouldn't mind a fourth RB after lovo, Elias and me.
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Your pairings are... odd. If Jeru comes out town, SF would automatically go to the top of the scummy list, no? Does that mean you think Shanba is the town-iest? I would have paired him with you, or maybe CES. Why Shanba?-
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Why do you think Shanba is 2nd most town?korts wrote:Right, but do you want the second most town left unblocked? I think that's open to interpretation. However you want it, I'm fine as long as CESc, Xyl and Joubert don't go in the same pair. I mean, any two of them.
You do realize that you're risking an nk by putting SF with a player who may or may not be town right? Am I missing something about Shanba?-
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That's not my point. No, I have no reason to suspect Shanba, but there's no way I'm certain that Shanba is town. You, with your slip, look like the most obvious townie, but you're willing to risk an nk by pairing a confirmed scum with someone whose alignment you have no way to be sure of.
We need to agree on pairings. I don't think it's optimal, but I'm willing to take Korts' pairings because I think he's town. I can't see his post as being a calculated drop. Does anyone object?-
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This sounds really townish I'm getting doubts about lynching you, but I still think it's the correct play given the circumstances. I agree with going with your pairings if you turn up town.jeru wrote:On yet another matter, why don't I make the pairings for the situation in which I come up town...
Korts unpaired
CES - SF
Shanba-Xyl
Joubert-Ting
Imat-Cavebear-
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It's still the correct play even if the odds of him being cop are low. Worse case is we exchange a townie for scum, which is still better than our current situation. As much has already been said before though.It's only the correct play if you still refuse to see how the odds of SF being town are absolutely nil. I'm glad someone is actually still reading the thread, though, instead of just blindly following this "oh gosh, we can't lynch a claimed cop" line of thinking.
Personally, going into day 2 I was suspicious of Joubert, Xyl and CES the most, in that order.-
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Jeru, is right.Ifwe have three confirmed town, 2 scum, and the ability to block nk, it's an auto town win. So, best case scenario for lynching SF is a win.
But you're not seeing, that if we lynch you, best case scenario is a confirmed cop and the ability to block nk. It's also an auto win at best case.
Convince me with something else, because at worse case if we lynch SF, we're trading a cop for a scum, which isbad. Worse case if we lynch you is we're trading one roleblocker for one scum, which isgood.
I'd also like an answer to:
-------------ting =) wrote:
Why?jeru wrote:COP DOES NOT HELP A TOWN WIN HERE!!!
No, I considered that, scum bussing scum would be the worse thing possible for us. Especially since you just said:jeru wrote:Scum bussing scum at this point is pretty much auto-lose for them, so it's ridiculous to consider.
and you've just been calling yourself confirmed town. If we lynch one of you who manages to turn up scum, since it'd be an 'auto win' we'd be pretty much putting the game into your hands or SF's hands, which would be disastrous if you're both scum.jeru wrote:Similarly, after we lynch SF, I'll be confirmed.
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Honestly, being snarky isn't going to help you.jeru wrote:I'm willing to read people, take the information we have in the thread and draw conclusions. That's kinda, ya know, playing mafia. Maybe you should try, instead of just barning everything someone else says in this thread.Ifyou were scum, this is exactly what we'd expect you to do - try and trade yourself off for a cop before dying, and belittling people isn't going to help you convince them.
IfSF is scum, this is also what I'd expect him to be doing, try and trade himself off for one other person before he's lynched. Which is why I'm asking you questions instead of just voting.-
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Why do you say this? Do you think it likely that all the players, town and scum, are roleblockers?CES wrote:The mafia would know this, and they likely have a roleblocker too.
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Also:
SF first called guilty on Joubert. Then you asked:
and then:CES wrote:Is this your result?
I want to know why you think SF having a guilty on Jeru was more likely than SF having a guilty on Joubert. It's the same post I brought up last time, but different question.Cogito Ergo Scum wrote:
Hmm.. That's much more likely to me, at least.SensFan wrote:Vote: O
Vote: O
Vote: P
Vote: S
Vote: J
Vote: E
Vote: R
Vote: U
Vote: G
Vote: U
Vote: I
Vote: L
Vote: T
Vote: Y
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You might as well call having 3 confirmed townies redundant. 'Well, we already auto-win with a confirmed cop, there's no point having 3 confirmed townies.' Also, I'm with cave, unkillable confirmed cop>3 confirmed townies for best case scenario. They're both autowins, but a cop is in no way unhelpful.jeru wrote:The cop is redundant.
You have me convinced on SF not bussing you. At most he'll only get in two extra kills, a mislynch and a nightkill. That wouldn't help scum.
The autowin with 3 townies is only truejeru wrote:you're placing it in the hands of the confirmed townies, who would be myself, CES, and Korts (if he's still here).ifyou three are all actually confirmed townies. When we make plans for blocking, you'll all be treated as confirmed, and if one of you are actually scum, it'd be disastrous.
Not quite I think. Jeru's plan would work because confirmed townies outnumber scum in his scenario (3>2). With only 2 confirmed townies and 2 scum, the scum could hypothetically still win. It's not an auto win, but yes, we'd have really good odds anyway.cave wrote:and they have two left, town pretty much wins, just as jerub says.
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Jeru, SF: who do you two think are the three people most likely to be scum?-
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I still feel that a jeru lynch is the correct play, but I'm leaning towards SF being the better lynch. It's ridiculous how fast the lovo wagon grew. It's what I would expect if SF was scum. I don't have time now, but I'll go and make a comparison later between the people on the lovo wagon and the people on the SF wagon. I'm assuming the scum might be the people who switched from the SF wagon to the lovo wagon, but I don't have the time now to read up.-
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[quote="jeru] If SF is the better lynch, how the heck is lynching me still the correct play?[/quote]
We've gone back and forth on this. If we lynch correctly, it's an auto win either way, but:
I've asked you about this before, but you didn't reply to it when I brought it up last time. I think I worded my last post badly though, maybe I should rephrase: I think the correct thing to do would be to lynch Jeru, but I'm leaning towards lynching SF because I think he's more likely to turn up scum.ting wrote: ...at worst case if we lynch SF, we're trading a cop for a scum, which is bad. Worst case if we lynch you is we're trading one roleblocker for one scum, which is good.
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You've said what I had on my mind about the lovo/SF wagons. I still don't have time to look deeper, but that's the gist of what I'm thinking about.
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I'm thinking about how viable a no lynch would be, or what would happen if we lynched someone else instead. We can't lynch anyone unless we can all agree on the night blockings.
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Oh, and just to repeat:
SF, who do you think are the scum?-
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ting =) Mafia Scum
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No, no Korts you misunderstood me. Let me rephrase: While I feel that lynching Jeru is the correct play, I'm leaning towards lynching SF because I feel he's the better lynch.
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@Jeru.
No lynchisa viable option, if we go with Cave's original plan.
We pair all the players and leave Korts and SF free. If there's an nk, we lynch SF. We make SF investigateeveryone. If he doesn't turn up guilty results, we lynch SF. Once he's done investigating everyone and has three guiltys, we lynch SF.
If he turns out cop, then we trust his results and lynch all his guiltys - win. If he turns out scum, then it'll be just like if we lynch him now, which is what you want anyway.
Besides the obvious drawback that it'll take a while to carry out, a no lynch works for both you and SF. I haven't decided yet if I think it's the best option, but I'm not disregarding a no lynch as a possible move. I'm not disregarding lynching someone else either.-
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ting =) Mafia Scum
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