Mini 568 - Nubigena (Game over!)

[Near]

vote phantom

responding to the prod.
+ agree with Lowell on post 29

[Near]

Blah blah blah, if everyone thought that JDodge would be spamming goatse.

Okay, I roleclaim vanilla townie.

I guess I can vouch for him because I just got called a townie in my role pm.

It's been a while since I had a night start, I'm having fun.

Why did you decide to vouch for him? Did you not realize what jerubbaal was trying to accomplish by questioning Mafiaplayer?

Unvote

Vote Sammich

[Near]

...Is this whole game going mad? Is every Townie going to claim right here and now and the Scum will have perfect cover? I can't believe the turn this game has taken. Why, Sammich, did you also play the stupid card and give a potential Scum an easy out?

Can we just restart this whole game, theres very little chance of Town coming back from this...

Immat chooses to use hyperbole to show us that he's displeased with the recent developments.

vote=immat

[Near]

unvote

you didn't panic so..
we will see.

back to my original suspect

vote: sammich

[Near]

I don't buy that you voted me to see if I'd panic. Your evidence showed me to be Pro-Town, and you only had that one point. Hardly enough for even Scum to panic over. Also, that you were checking if I'd panic seems to be an excuse to not answer my questions. I'm really not liking your play here Near, unless you can come up with a very good defense I think I'll park my vote on you and be as confident as possible given the nature of the game.

Correct. My voting wasn't tried to test you. I voted you because I thought your were scummy. But your response must have been satisfactory, because I unvoted u.

@jerubbaal and incognito: I voted 4 diff tiems on 3 different players. thta's a lot and we are only on page 5? maybe i suck at scum hunting- because i'm now suspecting jerubbaal. jerubbaal is acting too townie, it feels like he's aligning his posts to use as defense later.

but then i don't know. isn't jerubbaal supposed to be a good scumhunter? if he's suspecting me, maybe he's a scum. or maybe i'm just a bad townie.

[Near]

I actually have a reputation? That's a new one on me.

didn't you get a newbie of the year award or something. or am i confusing you with someone else.

@Near - the "too townie" argument is completely crap. You're obviously OMGUSing (I wouldn't necessarily call that a scum tell for newbies all the time). You're still flailing about trying to find something to stick. This is pretty consistent with your MO thus far.

i'm not OMGUSing, really. my townie argument could be crap but that was the impression I got re-reading your posts. you are too logical you are too poised . i could be wrong.

flailing, i'm not. trying maybe too hard to convince you guys i'm not a scum, maybe. i think the best way to contribute and make myself look not suspicious is making a good effort at scum hunting - i re-read the posts already and i get some hunches but i have no good suspect i can back up with logic. give me some more time.

[Near]

Lowell:

It seemed a little like Y was coaching Near a bit in his post. Again, this isn't exactly a smoking gun, but it's good enough.

Can you cite the source?

[Near]

On top of that, if MP is a vig, I'm just saying as an example, it could be killing the most protown people with its power.

Didn't we already have a vig die? Is it possible (how about likely) that there is more than one?

I agree with the rest of your post, XReyoX, regarding your analysis of value of keeping MafiaPlayer alive. Maybe if he keeps getting lynched this way, he would try harder in his future games. But then, the fact that he was able to come up with "townsperson" when asked about his exact role, makes me think that most likely he is one of them. Or maybe he got lucky? Aren't most games,

Lowell, please cite Y's post that made you think that Y was trying to coach me. And explain.

I did a re-read, and here are my thoughts.


<Players that are

NOT

likely to be scums >

XReyOX: her posts sound genuinely scum-hunting

INcognito: first, the fact that he accused me out of no where after my first post and only post. (i actually am not sure why this makes him look unscummy, but it does to me). and he said "I suspect Near will be gone in 3 pages" ... it's interesting how he accuses me pretty hard and predicts that i will be lynched, yet i still think he's not a scum. this is in contrast with lowell and jerubaal, both look scummy.

Imat: post 123 surprised me. even I wasn't even aware of that. for now, i give him benefit of the doubt.

mafiaplayer: because he wasn't able to answer what his "exact" role was yet still got it right somehow.

<Scummy people>

Lowell, jerubaal: because of meta game evidence outlined by posts 25 and 41 (both by jerubaal) and how lowell responded "Wow. You got me. I can't argue with that." (Doesn't this sound like they planned this conversation during night time?) Anyway, jerubaal briefly mentions this metagame evidence on why he thinks lowell could be mafia, but pretty much ignores it in his future posts.

Anyway, I think there's a high chance at least one of them is a scum. Either Lowell killed avinashv because of reasons stated by jerubaal and jerubaal was clevely able to poitn this out. Or, jerubaal killed avinashv so he can point to this esoteric metagame info to incriminate Lowell. Or, both are scums and they try to use this as a clever distancing strategy.

Sammich: for reasons stated before by me and other people

[Near]

Near, I made it quite clear that the meta evidence I cited to vote Lowell the first time was extremely minor. Do learn to recognize sarcasm in type, it makes the game much more fun when people don't get anal about it.

I am still not sure about this. I will quote your two posts here:

After my extensive and rigorous metagaming of the 4 or so games avinashv has joined in something like a week's time (crazy noob), I'm going to Unvote, Vote: Lowell

My meta on Lowell is simply that he's in another game with avinashv, in which consensus seems to be that avinashv is town. So he has additional motivation to kill someone who knows his playstyle and seems to be competent at the game. Scum tend to kill people they know might be threats, and there's some basis of knowledge here.

I believe there was someone else in the thread (don't recall who, I'll post it up in a minute) who was in a thread with avinashv, but the thread was on something like page 2. It's possible to have a read on page 2, but pretty unlikely enough to warrant killing. Or they could simply have killed avinashv because they recognized his name and didn't want overlap between their games.

At least in your second post, it seems that you gave this (or try to pretend that you have) quite a thought. I do not believe you when you say you were trying to be sarcastic.

Voting on minor stuff is good play in the early game, you can't get reactions unless you poke people.

I can accept the fact that you think so. But in my newbie mind, we are still in the very early game (page 6?) and this meta game thing isn't something we should ignore at the moment.

On the other hand, you're still exuding scum tells. Setting up that either/or/both situation is something you see newbscum do all the time to try to limit the town's focus. Plus your reasoning is entirely speculative, with absolutely no basis. The reaching continues. As well as the OMGUS.

Limit town's focus? How? Do you mean that I am trying to distract other townies by speculating on a confusing either/or situation? Is this really common? To me, this seems like an unlikely way for a newbscum to deliberately come up with in order to confuse town.

I do agree with the fact that my post is mostly speculative. But I dont' think that makes me more scummy. It makes me "speculative" which isn't really a compliment but I wasn't able to come up with a better theory based on "facts" yet.

[Near]

Sammich: for reasons stated before by me and other people

Lolwut?
Please be fair and give me a proper suspicion too.

- your rolling dice in real game. and voting for urself. IMO, the probability of your being a townie AND getting the dice result to vote for yourself (1/11) is very small that it makes me think that probability of your being scum AND rigging the dice result to vote for yourself in order to show us that you are "fair" is significantly higher.
- BTW, how did you roll the dice when there were 11 people you had to randomly pick?
- for vouching for mafia player

[Near]

jerubbaal is acting too townie, it feels like he's aligning his posts to use as defense later.

Near:
Sorry that i didn't ask you earlier, but could you clarify a bit more about how jerubbaal was aligning his posts?

At the time i wrote that post, it was mostly a gibberish. You should ignore it. But what do you think about this:

jerrubaal was the first person to question mafiaplayer for his role. I have not yet played with mafiaplayer in my previous games, but jerrubaal seems to think he's trying to mess up this game. then comes up with a clever, yet not fool-proof way to confirm MP's vanilla claim. at the same time though, he seems to be pretty convinced that MP is vanilla. plus this post:

Top left corner of the box in your role PM, what is it? You have something there, I guarantee.

Ok, here's yet another speculation by me, but isn't he trying too hard to look townie here?

[Near]

I'll look into it tmr. Are you trying to deflect my attention?

Yes. But no harm intended.

In fact, if you read my post tomorrow, you will see that I try to elaborate on my original hypothesis - I am just admitting that I didn't think about this at the time of my original post.

[Near]

But, on topic again, I don't like Near's post 164. Every player on his Scum list is there based on other people's evidence.

Incorrect. I don't think anyone has yet expressed his/her suspicion of jerubbaal. And my reason for suspecting Lowell is different. At any rate, I don't think this is very relevant to what you are trying to say

3 out of 4 players on his Town list were, according to him, there for basically no reason. I'm on there for "The benefit of the doubt,"

Do not put words in my mouth. I gave a reason for why I think you are not a scum. It's good that you are trying to make a point, but be accurate.

and while I enjoy being thought of as Pro-Town, any player putting somebody on their Pro-Town list for that reason is Scummy.

Why? Because it looks like I am trying to buddy up with people? Isn't this another WIFOM situation? Saying I think someone is less likely to be a scum COULD be an attempt to buddy up, but it could also be an expression of my opinion. And if buddying up is considered scummy, scums would avoid it.

Anyway, someone (I forget who) had asked me to analyze everyone and what I think about them. I didn't do quite that, but I gave opinion on most of the players here.

He openly calls Incognito Scummy and only provides Scummy evidence, yet he is on the Town list. Thats even worse than my "Benefit of the Doubt."

True, but I did mention this in my post - that it is interesting that I get the feeling that they are town even though they accuse me.

MP is on the Town list for being able to state the exact name, the fact that he could only do so after being reminded of the Mod's post doesn't figure into this at all.

Let me ask you, do you think MP is a scum? I think the fact that he was confused when answering his role, as opposed to saying something else that's close to "townsperson" is a good evidence that he's not a scum.

XreyOX is the only player on Near's Town list with relatively sound Pro-Town reasons. Otherwise the list seems to be buddying up to certain players and distancing from others. What disturbs me is the fact that he buddies up to the players who attack him. Question mark?

Funny how at least one person in my scum list (jerubbaal) accuses me of OMGUSing and two people on my non-scum list accuse me of trying to buddy up with them. Neither. I am expressing my opinion regardless how speculative (as brought up by jerubbaal) and scummy you might find my reasons to be.

Also, the idea of a list doesn't sit well with me at all. A list helps Scum more than Town more often than not. If you want me to explain that, I'll do so, but the reasons seem almost obvious to me.

I think it can help the scum help decide who they should kill. For example, I would guess that it might seem more advantageous for scums to kill a person who no one suspects is mafia than someone everyone is suspicious of. (Is this what you are thinking of?) But on the other hand, when this logic is applied once more to the night time killing pattern, it could become another instance of WIFOM.

On the other hand, such list can help the townies substantial evidence on who is acting scummy and who is not.

[Near]

Near, I've read up on your current reads of people and I'm a bit confused here. It seems like you're reading a number of people as town but the reasons you've given just don't jibe well with what you've said so far in this game.

Your reason for labeling me as town is because I've gone after you for quite a bit of Day 1. You seem to apply that same level of reasoning to Imat as well since you referenced his Post 123 in which he contemplates the possibility of you being scum. So in essence, you've labeled two people as town just because of the fact that they found

you

to be suspicious. Interestingly though you labeled jerubbaal as scummy earlier because he thought you were scum as well (Post 110).

Can you please explain these inconsistencies?

Yeah. But I did express this dilemma in my original post. I said I find it interesting why I find some attacks on myself as scummy and others non-scummy. Obviously, my views on people's scuminess change over time and as i re-read my posts.

I don't entirely agree with your read on jerubbaal but I will admit that I, too, was finding jerubbaal suspicious early on but for slightly different reasons from you. I thought his usage of night-time WIFOM against Lowell to try to figure out the reason behind the NK choice was a bit eyebrow raising and so I questioned him about it. His response was decent, and his contribution has been pretty good so far so I decided not to pursue it further.

Shrug. I still find it suspicious.

[Near]

Oh, so you take issue with all kinds of dice voting? I thought it was more because of the fact that he used actual, real-life dice as opposed to the ones provided by the site.

Dice voting in real life

IS

scummy.

Thinking/setting up a complicated system to decide on who to vote between 11 people in real life to accomplish nothing

IS

scummy or the person in action is psychotic.

[Near]

Near:
Asking me to ignore some of your posts doesn't seem right. Even if it is a whole lot of rubbish, I'd like you to tell me where it has come from. It is scummy to throw something out here and wish someone can back you up or finding reasons for you.

I wouldn't say this is scummy. I think it would be more scummy to try to come up with a reason to defend what I meant. It's probably not that hard.

ANyway, I will watch myself in the future. I have a tendency to sometimes post hunches/speculations without concrete evidence. I still find the three people I listed under scummy list very scummy.

[Near]

@ Near:

i re-read the posts already and i get some hunches but i have no good suspect i can back up with logic. give me some more time.

Yet you've already voted at least three different people.

I am new on this site and I have not yet finished a game yet. I am playing 5 different games right now, and I find it interesting that people find early voting/vote hopping scummy. It's not even that I was trying to start a wagon or tried to put someone at very heavy pressure. I would need to adjust my actions in the future to try to look less scummy.

[Near]

I think we should start whether lying is scumtell tho.

I am also quite sure that Sammich lied about his dice rolling. But he could have admitted that he didn't actually roll the dice (and that he lied), yet he continues to lie and defends something that could be very trivial.

Well, I could be wrong and he actually rolled the dice, but I find that hard to believe.

[Near]

I was the one pointing the dice vote and the lack of that information that kind of vote gives us is my main reason.

@ Lowell: What? The post you refer to as coaching was supposed to make him talk. I don't know if I'm the cause, but he's talking. I got what I wanted.

Which post is that?

Immediate hunch: Lowell and Y partners?
Concrete evidence: none.

[Near]

Sammich. Did you really roll the dice or did you make it up?

[Near]

If you are mafia, admit that you are mafia. Don't try to lie right now so that you seem innocent. It doesn't work. I don't like lying scum. Voting yourself doesn't make you a town either. What has a night start got to do with voting yourself anyway?

[Near]

Does voting with real dice and rolling yourself truly make one Scummy? If not, is there any real reason to pursue this line of thought? Just know that it happened and leans you towards Sammich, then continue with the game. Anything else happens, you can look at him with real suspicions. This current line of thinking seems rather distraction-prone.

Rolling a die in real life AND voting for yourself based on the dice outcome IS NOT scummy.

However: lying that you rolled a die AND pretending that the dice outcome dictated you to vote for yourself IS scummy.

The facts are:
1. It was physically impossible for Sammich to roll the dice like he described the process of in reality.
2. Therefore, Sammich lied. Repeatedly. He made up a story in order to convince us that he had in fact rolled the dice.
3. A townie (at least I would) just give up in the middle of it and admitted I was joking or I lied.
4. I think it's worth it to re-quote what Sammich has said:

In real game and voting for myself. Lolwut? But, it's not very easy to get a twelve sided dice in real life. It wasn't even a whole dice roll, per se. What I did was this.

1. Take two six sided dice. Dice one represents players one through five: Mafiaplayer, Incognito, Lowell, XReyoX, and myself. The sixth number on the die would indicate a reroll. Dice two represented thephantom, the catherder, Fat Tony, Imat, jerubbaal, and you, Near.

The odds of me being picked was actually 1 out of five players, but I wasn't shooting for that.

I rolled dice one and got the reroll number, odds of so being one out of six, even odds. Dice one rolled again got me, as you might think by now. The odds of me getting picked was one out of five players, and one out of six possible choices.

Dice two was an easier feat, and it rolled Imat. Right now that was one out of six possible choices, and the odds of him being picked were pretty average being that every player had one bid.

Rolling a dice that would've had more rerolls than players would've been stupid, so I took this to a simple heads or tails coin flip. Imat was heads, I was tails. It was even odds, entirely fair at 50/50. So, I flipped, and it came up tails.

Believe this story or not, there's not enough proof I rigged it IMO. Anybody can simply go offline and fabricate a story like this but who would really vote for themselves anyway?

5. EVEN AFTER XreyoX pointed out the time difference of one minute between his posts that made it physically impossible for him to do this, he still maintained he didn't lie. See post 200
6. In my opinion, there is very small chance that Sammich is town. Add the fact that Sammich vouched for MP in order to imply that he is a vanilla townie.

Unvote

Vote: Sammich

[Near]

Near

: His early vote hops do seem scummy. I move my vote a lot because its the only thing a townie's got, but his reasons in this game look really thin.

In the same post he admits that a too townie argument may be crap, says jerubbaal is too logical:

my townie argument could be crap but that was the impression I got re-reading your posts. you are too logical you are too poised .

Too Logical to be town? Too Poised? Makes no sense.

The way I stated the reasons for suspecting jerubbaal was crap. It was an argument that will be defeated by the face of reason. I conceded that much. I was basing my suspicion on my hunches.

IMO, the probability of your being a townie AND getting the dice result to vote for yourself (1/11) is very small that it makes me think that probability of your being scum AND rigging the dice result to vote for yourself in order to show us that you are "fair" is significantly higher.

Two separate issues:

-The probability of Sammich being town: Assuming a standard 9/3 split and no SK, then its a ~72% chance of him being town, much higher than him being scum.
-If he's not scum, then the likelihood that he concocted the dice result: If he were scum and botched the tag, is it likely that he did it on purpose to invent his real world result? If he didn't screw it up on purpose, is it likely that he'd then invent a way to vote himself?

There are too many moving pieces to make him scum for rigging the die roll, and its bad logic to say so.

This would indeed take very complicated reasoning. And for now, I will let go of this argument. It is irrelevant, now, anyway, since we know that Sammich was lying.

And if buddying up is considered scummy, scums would avoid it.

That is actually a fantastic way to setup mislynches, especially if the townie being buddied up to is already considered scummy.

If you quoted my entire paragraph, you will see that I was trying to illustrate that it leads to a WIFOM situation

Gorckat, your post tries to illustrate that I was wrong in my ways of thinking - but you fail to state why that makes me scummy in your eyes. Don't mistake logical flaws with characteristics of a scum.

[Near]

And if buddying up is considered scummy, scums would avoid it.

And if people thought that Scum would avoid buddying up, wouldn't Scum avoid it? Truth is, no Scumtell doesn't come with its own circles. We can, I think, safely assume that Scum aren't stupid. Therefore they'll know what we expect of Scum and do the opposite. However, they'll know that we know that they'll avoid this behavior, so they'll exhibit this behavior. Its all very circular in the end.

Your confusion originates from the fact that gorckat decided to quote only part of my paragraph. What I really said:

Why? Because it looks like I am trying to buddy up with people? Isn't this another WIFOM situation? Saying I think someone is less likely to be a scum COULD be an attempt to buddy up, but it could also be an expression of my opinion. And if buddying up is considered scummy, scums would avoid it.

[Near]

And Near. Again, you're ignoring other possibilities concerning the dice throw. I won't point them out, because I want to hear them from Sammich, but you can't focus on one possibility of the event in question and form your opinions off of it. If it could only have happened one way, then I'd agree with you. But there are several ways this could have happened.

Wow. Good. I think I know what you are thinking about, and I am pretty sure Sammich could figure out what it is after reading your post. However, the fact that he didn't bring it up until now makes this very unlikely.

For example, see post 200. He *again* denies that he was lying.

[Near]

As far as the "physical impossibility" of Sammich completing the rolls and coin flip- what makes it impossible?

-I have dice on hand at my desk
-I have coins in my pocket or in my desk drawer
-I have quick post enabled

Surely two people with the requisite equipment on hand to look at a player list and roll dice and then flip a coin must be scum! Although I'd have stuck with a d6 and rolled prime (me) /not prime (whoever i was rolling against) to see who to vote. Or maybe pips in the middle or odd/even or high/low. The only thing I'd question for an instant is the coin, but its not damning.

Plus, we don't see seconds, so there are really a full 1:59 he could have had to make his post.

- Look at the list of players that were represented by each dice roll.

First die 1-6 = Mafiaplayer, Incognito, Lowell, XReyoX, and Sammich, reroll
Second die 1-6 = thephantom, the catherder, Fat Tony, Imat, jerubbaal, and you, Near

- I don't see any pattern in the list of names. It doesn't even coincide with the mod's list on the first page. It's not even alphabetical. Unless there is a simple pattern I am not seeing, he must have maintained this on paper or somewhere.

- It's weird that Sammich remembers what came up in the second die. It is possible if he kept the written notes after each die, but this would require more than 2 minutes.

- Finally, he admitted that he was lying - once it became apparent to him that it was impossible for him to sell us his fabricated story.

[Near]

Sammich: Was the die roll made up?

No.
But if you look at it out of context I could've rerolled again instead of posting the result.
Besides, I thought it would lighten the situation.

- Finally, he admitted that he was lying - once it became apparent to him that it was impossible for him to sell us his fabricated story.

Well apparently I'm still selling it, I don't think you bullying the case around has been as effective as you're giving it credit for.

But...

Fine it was a joke vote.

Anyway, even if I I can believe that you only admitted this because you thought not doing so would put you in a danger of getting lynched, STILL, i do not believe you rolled the dice in real life. It's just so unlikely. Since, everyone thinks we should let go of this dice incident, here are my final sets of questions for Sammich. Upon your satisfactory answer, I will let go of this incident. Sammich, please answer:

1. Did you roll the dice in real life?
2. If yes, is your post at #175 an accurate description of what happened?
3. How did you remember which pip on the dice represented who? Did you write this down?

Actually I have one more question after this. But I want to wait for your answers to above first. THanks.

[Near]

@Near: The reason I voted you was not just using bad logic, it was because you pushed bad logic

after

acknowledging it was bad with the second two townie argument, the loose feel of your early votes.

In 207, what you push as facts are not indisputable:

The facts are:
1. It was physically impossible for Sammich to roll the dice like he described the process of in reality.
2. Therefore, Sammich lied. Repeatedly. He made up a story in order to convince us that he had in fact rolled the dice.
3. A townie (at least I would) just give up in the middle of it and admitted I was joking or I lied.
4. I think it's worth it to re-quote what Sammich has said:

<explains process>

5. EVEN AFTER XreyoX pointed out the time difference of one minute between his posts that made it physically impossible for him to do this, he still maintained he didn't lie. See post 200
6. In my opinion, there is very small chance that Sammich is town. Add the fact that Sammich vouched for MP in order to imply that he is a vanilla townie.

1. It was not impossible. I've already said I have the stuff on hand.
2. He may not have lied. It was possible.
3. This is your opinion
4. ---
5. Again- it is physically possible
6. Opinion as fact?

The way you present your theories and opinion as fact is scummy.

I think you are being too technical here. Of course 1 is "possible" but what do you think the probability of this happening is? If you have planned it ahead and had the dice and coin ready and had written down which pip represented who, then yes, it's possible. Did he have this set up ready just in case his html dice roll failed?

3 and 6 are opinions but these mistakes were due to forgetting that I listed these under what I claimed "facts".

[Near]

Question for the field: Is it plausible to believe that only scum lie? Is LAL a good policy to actually abide by? Why or why not?

Not sure what LAL is.
I believe townies lie too. But scums lie much more often.

[Near]

Ok, Sammich. You passed my test. Who do you think is scum, and why?

[Near]

Near's case against Sammich seems to mainly focus on the fact that Sammich may have lied about rolling dice but presents as an aside the other evidence that could be MORE indicative of Sammich being scum; the fact that he vouched for Mafiaplayer.

Incognito, I think I mentioned that as an aside only once. That was when I was making a case that I think Sammich is a scum. At the time I was making my case and right now, the fact that Sammich vouched for MP is indisputable. Most of my posts content focused on the dice incident, because 1) we were disputing the facts of the dice incident 2) I find it more suspicious than the fact that he vouched for MP.

Even the fact that Sammich has been avoiding XReyoX's questions seems like a better argument to be made here but Near chooses to push the minor offense instead. I don't even know what to make of this....

That is your opinion. To tell you the truth, yes XReyoX was correct. I was testing Sammich. I was not at all convinced by his answer. His answers were so short (maybe he was trying to avoid being trapped by his lies again) and there are other things that I want to point out. But until

Sammich responds to my question on who he thinks are scums AND why

, I am not going to say anything else other than the fact that I still think Sammich is mafia and that my primary reason for thinking so is the dice incident.

Sammich seems scummy for avoiding XReyoX's questions and vouching for Mafiaplayer but Near seems scummy for his initial vote-hopping and pushing of this more minor case. I'll stick with my Near vote for now.

Again, it's still hard for me to believe that my vote-hopping makes me look scummy. But there is not much more I can say about this.

[Near]

Upon your satisfactory answer, I will let go of this incident. Sammich, please answer:

1. Did you roll the dice in real life?
2. If yes, is your post at #175 an accurate description of what happened?
3. How did you remember which pip on the dice represented who? Did you write this down?

Haven't you and several others asked this throughout the discussion? It looks like you want everyone to see how reasonable you can be in letting it go.

Yes, #1 has been asked several times and Sammich has answered yes to the question except once. The one time he admitted he lied, it was interpreted by many that he was joking. So I wanted to confirm this again. #2 has never been confirmed again after his initial post. #3 has been asked once by me but has never been answered.

Second XReyoX- what test? What was asked there or answered in such a fashion that it wasn't before?

Yes, XReyoX was correct. I was testing Sammich. I will say more once Sammich answers to my question.

[Near]

I have some thoughts about Near's accusations:
1. Joke = Random vote. I don't think he meant that the procedure he wrote was a joke. You're straw-manning.

I am not exactly sure what you mean here. Are you saying that you think his procedure was a joke? No, that's not what he said. Re-read his posts that he wrote after and tell me you think he's joking.

2. As been pointed before me, you give priority to a somewhat irrelevant action, while ignoring completely one which is much more relevant.

This is your opinion. I have something I want to say once Sammich responds to my question.

3. You keep using the same argument, blowing it out of proportion.

I feel that this is an important piece of information, and I find Sammich very suspicious because of it.

4. XReyoX asked you what "test" was it that Sammich passed, but you decided to just say he's right by agreeing with you that there was a "test".

Completely wrong. Once Sammich answers my question and I present my view, I think you will believe me. That is, you might still say my test was not very useful depending on how Sammich answers, but I am confident that townies will find my explanation genuine.

I think Sammich had nothing to gain with his dice roll and I'm sorry I even brought it up in the first place. This whole discussion leads nowhere and it's halting our progression.

What's halting our "progression" is Sammich not answering my simple question: Who he thinks are scums and why. After that, I promise I will make no more than 3 posts regarding this dice incident if you guys want me to stop. This is what I ask, and I think it's fair.

Since I think Near is confusing the town and does whatever he can just to get some one lynched, I'll Vote Near.

Mod:

Can we have a vote count?

Do not lynch me until I have the chance to respond to Sammich's answer to my question.

[Near]

After MafiaPlayer's vote on me, I am at L-1.

There must be at least one town that has voted me. Someone unvote and put me back at L-2. I am asking this because Sammich's vote is currently on himself, and I think there is high chance he might decide to lynch me.

Let me at least get a chance to question Sammich before I die.

[Near]

Thank you Incognito. Now to respond to Y's post:

What I'm saying is that Sammich said "Fine it was a joke vote" meaning "Fine, it was a random vote". I believe so because he referred to all the other random votes as joke votes too.

Hmm. Upon a re-read you might be right. But isn't this obvious? Dice voting on the first page obviously is a joke. It provides no content. But anyway, I misinterpreted his post.

Since you believe it's so important, could you please tell me what advantage will he gain that merits such a procedure just to self vote? What gives him more advantage this way than if he would have just said that he votes himself, without the dice?

Personally, I don't think Sammich can gain anything even if he can prove to us that he used dice in real life to do a random vote. At first I thought that Sammich *might* have thought that doing a random vote and illustrating that he actually followed the dice result even if it meant for voting himself would have made him look like a "fair player". But this is not that significant. The reason I find this important is that I don't think he actually rolled the dice. Less than two mintues.

He also remembers which pip on the dice represented who? That's at least 10 players. After 11 days of time, especially if we assume the whole set-up process and the dice rolling and the posting the result on this forum took less than 2 minutes time, I think this is impossible.

[Near]

You used it as if XReyoX agreed with you that it's a test. You misrepresented his words as if he was supporting you, while he was actually questioning you

I did not misrepresent his words as if he was supporting me. When I wrote the post saying "Sammich you passed my test", I thought it might have been a little obvious that I was lying. When XReyoX followed up with a "test?" I actually blamed him for saying so. I wanted to make it unknown to Sammich if possible. But it doesn't really matter, now that i think about it.

Here's a question for you Y and the others. If you knew for certain that Sammich lied and made up the dice roll incident, would you think he's a scum? How likely?

[Near]

Ok here's another question for the field: Do you think Sammich rolled the dice in real life?

[Near]

Near:
Why is it soo soo sooo important that you need to know whether sammich lied about his dicevote?

XReyoX, this is what I think. If sammich has lied about the dice thing, he is very likely to be a scum. Do you not agree?

[Near]

Here's a question for you Y and the others. If you knew for certain that Sammich lied and made up the dice roll incident, would you think he's a scum? How likely?

No, I wouldn't. It's something so irrelevant, and I believe that doing the actual roll would be much easier than inventing the whole story.

Accusing him for making that up is stupid if you ask me.

I didn't ask you if you think sammich lied. I asked you if sammich has lied even if it's something so irrelevant, and kept insisting on his *story*, and turned out that he was lying, would you not suspect him? I am guessing your answer is no, but since you convoluted your answer by stating answer to my second question, feel free to clarify yourself.

Ok here's another question for the field: Do you think Sammich rolled the dice in real life?

Yes. As I said: making that story up is harder than actually doing what he claims he did, and lying about it has no real purpose.

I'll say it again: I believe this whole "dice" thing is irrelevant, the accusation is stupid, and we're all wasting our time.

Any other question?[/quote]

Feel free to bring up other points regarding this game. I will happy to share my thoughts/respond to your other points. I am still going to pursue this until I am satisfied, regardless of you think this is stupid or not. I will try not to flood this game with dice posts from now on, unless 1) it's responding to other people's comments or questions regarding it OR 2) it's responding to Sammich's answer to my question.

At this point i almost feel like there are 5 scums in this game.

[Near]

Near:
Why is it soo soo sooo important that you need to know whether sammich lied about his dicevote?

XReyoX, this is what I think. If sammich has lied about the dice thing, he is very likely to be a scum. Do you not agree?

No, not really. What i think is lying about the diceroll achieve nothing in favour for the scum. It probably means he is a stupid liar only.

If Sammich admitted to lying earlier, I would have less problem with him. It's the fact that he kept insisting on justifying himself that if he is indeed lying, I think there is very high chance he's the scum.

[Near]

At this point i almost feel like there are 5 scums in this game.

You wouldn't mind pointing them out and do some explanation, do you, Near?

I know there can't be 5 scums. I just felt like whoever was attacking my argument as completely useless and waste of time were scums.

[Near]

And he still hasn't answered my question.

Near, attacking another player to shift suspicion from yourself isn't a very good defense. Tsk tsk.

WTF. I have been defending myself from left and right. And in fact, it was the fact that I attacked you based on your dice incident that some people found me more scummy.

Answer my question.

[Near]

I don't follow you near. What question did you ask?

Who do you think are scums? And why?

[Near]

My read on Near has become somewhat jumbled. This Sammich thing is interesting though, because after jumping around at several targets and making half-assed cases, he's finally latched on to something which he perceives as having some support. This isn't completely scummy, but it is common scum MO to follow the support day 1.

I got more negative comments for pursuing this "useless" dice-roll incident than I received support. I am pursuing this because I think this is relevant.

Why the heck isn't Sammich answering my questions? Why is he not answering anyone else's questions?

[Near]

Ripley, you write well. Thanks for being able to illustrate/defend my point of view better than I could have.

[Near]

I got more negative comments for pursuing this "useless" dice-roll incident than I received support. I am pursuing this because I think this is relevant.

Why the heck isn't Sammich answering my questions? Why is he not answering anyone else's questions?

Maybe because I have other things to do than sit at the computer and speculate about some user rolling a dice?

I will get back to you all friday. I have some family business to attend to.

Sammich, if you have been reading the posts in this game, it shouldn't take you more than 15 minutes answer my question. If you have not been reading the posts, you should. Else you should volunteer to find a replacement.

It feels like Sammich is trying to let this "dice" incident die down by avoiding to answer my question until the investigation moves on to other things. I am not sure whether to just say what I want to say about Sammich or wait. We don't have a deadline yet, do we?

[Near]

I'm having second thoughts about Y. He's no longer atop my scum list.

Thanks. I'm so relieved now.
Could you please give us some insight about who is at the top of your list and why?

LOL. Y, you didn't have a single vote on you.

Two people who currently has their votes on me says to each other "I love you"...

[Near]

What do you call a person who is not a scum but wins with a scum and whose wish is to be lynched in order to save scum?

[Near]

What do you call a person who is not a scum but wins with a scum and whose wish is to be lynched in order to save scum?

What is the intention of this post?

I want to know what that role is called. Someone answer me please.

I still feel like the lying about dice rolling argument is a bit weak and doesn't actually equate to Sammich being scum; the vouching for Mafiaplayer and recent question avoidance does look pretty bad, however. Maybe once Sammich gets back Near could clarify his reasoning for the repeated questioning of Sammich's dice roll.

Let's start from the beginning. If sammich has indeed rolled the dice in real life to do a random vote, fine. It would make him very slightly suspicious, but it would not be that big of a deal.

Now if Sammich did not roll the dice in real life, but lied about it, again, it would be suspicious but I don't think it's worth voting someone over it. But, if Sammich did not roll the dice, and he's being repeatedly questioned about it, he should tell the truth and admit that he lied. Sure, townies lie too. But scums are much more likely to fabricate a detailed story of what really happened to cover/defend their lies.

It turns out that Sammich was able to recall very detailed description of how he rolled the dice. He remembers which pip represented which person. That the coin came up heads, etc. What I am trying to say is that, if he didn't lie and actually went through with what he said he did, then fine. It's very weird and maybe he has unusually good memories, but it's not enough lynch him.

But

if he lied about it, then he was contemplating how to cover up his lie. To come up with a detailed step by step recollection of what happened 11 days ago. Via the longest post he had written in this game. This is what I find suspicious, and I feel it is a worthy of a vote.

I won't re-summarize all the evidence against Sammich rolling the dice in real life. About 3 or so such points are repeated a few times already mostly by me. I will add one additional evidence/point to this in the next post.

[Near]

Anyway, even if I I can believe that you only admitted this because you thought not doing so would put you in a danger of getting lynched, STILL, i do not believe you rolled the dice in real life. It's just so unlikely. Since, everyone thinks we should let go of this dice incident, here are my final sets of questions for Sammich. Upon your satisfactory answer, I will let go of this incident. Sammich, please answer:

1. Did you roll the dice in real life?
2. If yes, is your post at #175 an accurate description of what happened?
3. How did you remember which pip on the dice represented who? Did you write this down?

Actually I have one more question after this. But I want to wait for your answers to above first. THanks.

Yes, yes, and no, short term memory is a good thing.

I did briefly mention this in the last post, but I feel like this is worth paying more careful attention to. He's claiming that he was able to remember exactly which pip represented who. And he credits his "short-memory" for it.

Now try to write down 11 random numbers and randomly assign 11 players in this game. Try sitting there for 5 minutes and try to remember which number belonged to who. Do something else for 1 minute, and come back and see how many pairs you can remember. I didn't try this, but I am guessing you wouldn't be able to come up with more than half of them.

The day he recalled what happened was about 10 days after he rolled the dice. Both 1) the detailed description of what Sammich said happened and 2) his credit to his short memory makes me think that there is no chance that he meant to say that he only remembers who came up on the dice and made up everyone else. I think this is impossible to do.

Finally, if you look at:

1. Take two six sided dice. Dice one represents players one through five: Mafiaplayer, Incognito, Lowell, XReyoX, and myself. The sixth number on the die would indicate a reroll. Dice two represented thephantom, the catherder, Fat Tony, Imat, jerubbaal, and you, Near.

The order of this player very closely matches the orders of people who posted on this game. Note that Sammich is the 5th person to post on this game other than avinashv.

Sammich's order:

• Mafiaplayer, Incognito, Lowell, XReyoX, Sammich, thephantom, catherder, FatTony, Imat, Jerubbaal and Near

Order of players posted in this game:

• Mafiaplayer, XReyoX, Lowell, Incognito, Sammich, catherder, Imat, thephantom, Jerubbaal, FatTony, Near

These lists look close enough to think that Sammich was browsing the front page (I don't know why he didn't use the mod's list) to collect the names of players he would add to his story.

[Near]

EDWOP:

I want to clarify by saying that, if Sammich had actually rolled the dice on after the fifth post in this game, he list shouldn't be similar to the order of the players posted in this game. On the fifth of post of the game, when people haven't posted yet, what else do you have to look up players for the game than mod's list:

• Fat_Tony, Imat, Incognito, jerubbaal, Lowell, Mafiaplayer, Near, Sammich, gorckat, the_cat_herder, Ripley, thephantom, XReyoX

As you can see, the orders are completely different.

[Near]

EBWOP:

• Fat_Tony, Imat, Incognito, jerubbaal, Lowell, Mafiaplayer, Near, Sammich, the_cat_herder, thephantom, XReyoX

[Near]

I believe Sammich is a jester.

Sammich. Cast a vote on someone other than yourself. Could you do that?

[Near]

unvote

[Near]

...Really? A Jester? There aren't anywhere near enough players to even consider a Jester. Even if there were, Why would you want to bring it up in the first place?

According to mafia wiki, jester wins if he gets lynched. Therefore, I brought it up. I don't see what is wrong with this.

Possibly saving Scum partners bacon with a defense that looks reasonable at first but, when thought about, is weaker than any other defense in this game? In fact, the fact that you are pushing Sammich so hard based on not much more than the dice thing makes me feel this is likely. When people started questioning your partner, you jumped right on with them, seeing a chance to confirm your Towniness. However, when people realized there wasn't much reason to lynch him, you retract your attacks and call him the Jester, a weak call in such a small game. I don't like basing evidence off of pairs, but regardless of Sammich's alignment, you have acted Scummy all game IMO.

In fact, I had this thought that Sammich was a jester a while ago. That's why I wanted to ask him who he thinks are scums and why. If he comes up with reasonable list and tries to come up with a good evidence to back it up, I would have thought that he was a scum. If he comes up with a list that is completely out of whack, I would have concluded that he was a jester. I was impatient and should have waited until tomorrow for Sammich to respond.

If you look at how Sammich played though, his posts do make sense if he was a jester. His vouching of mafiaplayer, who we all thought was scummy. His saying that he "deleted his pm 3 days ago?" His insistence on sticking to his dice story even when many found it impossible. He doesn't answer people's questions. He decides to "leave" the game in the midst of people suspecting him. It's like he wanted people to vote him and lynch him off. And his asking of MP whether he is a jester I think is an evidence that he thought/knows of existence of jester in this game. What really got me though, is the Post Restriction section in the mafia wiki:

http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Jester
http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... estriction

Sammich voted twice in this game period. But he only voted himself. It's like he didn't have the ability to vote on anyone else. Which makes sense if you think about why Sammich had to resort to random dice roll and could not even use the html version. He had to *rig* the dice to justify his voting on himself.

[Near]

I doubt theres a Jester in a game this small. Its next to impossible. And putting a restriction on the Jester which only allows him to vote himself would be evil Modding. I'm assuming we don't have an evil Mod.

His first vote on himself was random, his second was sarcasm in response to people pointing out him voting himself. I don't know why he hasn't unvoted, but it was a sarcastic vote.

From what you and Incognito say, it sounds like it's not common to put jester in a small game like this. I wouldn't know, as I haven't played a game yet neither real life or on here with a jester. But if this is not a common practice, I would have to ask, why not?

I still think Sammich fits the jester role better than scum role, but if he's not a jester, I think he's a scum.

Also, I was in a hurry to unvote and expressed my guess at Sammich being a jester, because according to Wiki, jester wins if he gets lynched before townies or scums win.

[Near]

What power does a soothsayer have?

[Near]

Let's see if Sammich can vote on someone other than himself. I still feel like there is a post-restriction in play here.

[Near]

Well, I think that by keeping us from progressing, Near does exactly what scum needs: Less info for the town and a possible no-lynch. All the players are concentrating in one player, while it's almost certain that we have more than one player playing against us. Near is narrowing all the town's investigation. Not only that we're probably missing a lot of info we could gather by looking at other players, but the only lead we are following gives us very little.

Since I believe we've accomplished almost nothing for the last seven pages or so, and since Near is the main player pushing us in that direction, I feel confident enough in lynching him.

I asked questions and posted my thoughts on Sammich. I have explained my reasons for being suspicious of Sammich. I should be to blame if Sammich investigation turns out useless, but you should question my weakness in argument or errors in reasoning rather than the result itself, because the reason for this dice incident getting drawn out so long is Sammich not responding to my question.

To summarize, your reasoning goes like this. 1) Near's investigation is useless and is going no where 2) This is what scums want 3) Therefore Near must be a scum. I can understand your thinking this way, but we know this is faulty logic. Again, I apologize if 1) is true. I will follow up with this by responding to Incognito.

[Near]

I pretty much agree with Y. These last 7 or 8 pages have completely focused on this back and forth between Near and Sammich about this dice rolling incident and even after all of this, Near's final conclusion is that Sammich is a Jester? Why expend so much time and energy asking so many questions about this damn dice roll if you're just gonna come to the conclusion that someone is a Jester?

Yes, I really thought Sammich was a jester but based on what people said here, this option doesn't seem likely. IF Sammich has an ability to vote on someone else, then I will forgo this argument. Based on this, I will decide whether or not to vote him off.

[Near]

Sammich has completely disappeared.

mod, have you prodded Sammich?

[Near]

What is making me vote Near right now is the bizarre flip from 'Sammich passing his test' (in which Sammich said he did not make up the die roll) to going after him for not posting a scum list and then becoming convinced he lied again. I admit I got wrapped in Sammich's 'uncooperativeness' and wanted his answers, too, but since he has seemingly flaked I can assume he wasn't keeping up with things.

This was when I first had the thought the Sammich was a jester. At the time, I did not know that jesters are very uncommon in a mini normal game like this. Please re-read my post at 341 on why I thought Sammich fit the role of jester pretty well.

I've already explained that I lied on purpose when I said Sammich passed my test. I lied because I wanted Sammich to think I don't suspect him anymore. Then I proceeded to ask him who he thinks are scums. By looking at his scum list and the arguments as to why he thinks the people he picked are scums, I wanted to determine whether or not he was a jester. Basically, if he came up with a reasonable list with reasonable arguments, then I would probably have thought that he was a scum. If it looked like he was trying to be unreasonable on purpose, I probably would have concluded that he was a jester.

Bottom line: I did not know that jester is very improbable in this type of games. If, in fact, I accept that there isn't a jester, I am sold on Sammich being a scum.

[Near]

Near:

Is there absolutely nothing you can talk about beside sammich? Your tunnel vision is starting to concern me.

I suspect Y above everyone else (other than Sammich). Call it OMGUS if you want. But he's trying to over-play the fact that my investigation produced no result so far. And he keeps downplaying the possibility of Sammich being the scum even when faced with evidence that 1) He lied about the dice 2) He keeps ignoring people's question 3) He has disappeared, period.

Let's suppose that I am a scum. After my post 328 and 330, people finally began to express their support for my dice investigation. Incognito has agreed that there might be something with this dice investigation. XreyoX said I explained well. Ripley continued to agree with me. gorckat admitted he is not sure he believes Sammich anymore. So why did I stop? If I were a scum, this would definitely look like a good chance to lynch Sammich? Assuming I am a scum, I can't think of a good reason to try to "release" Sammich from this lynch unless he was my scum buddy. (Can you think of other reasonable possibilities?) Then, you be the judge. Do you think I was trying to bus Sammich by pointing out this dice incident without intention of lynching Sammich? If I had the intention of lynching Sammich, did I all of the sudden change my mind to save him?

Ripley summarizes my situation and my last few posts pretty well:

I agree that the jester theory was weak but the whole thing came across to me as misguided rather than fabricated. If anything Near's failing has probably been in over-estimating. or misunderstanding Sammich and trying too hard to make his actions fit a rational scenario.

[Near]

I've already explained that I lied on purpose when I said Sammich passed my test. I lied because I wanted Sammich to think I don't suspect him anymore. Then I proceeded to ask him who he thinks are scums.

Wait, wait. Near, are you saying the whole "Test" we were talking about is a load of crap?! Why do you want him to think you didn't suspect him anymore?

No. I think you are confusing the time I said "Sammich has passed my test" and my question to Sammich on who he thinks are mafia.

Thinking clearly, it didn't matter whether or not Sammich thought I suspected him or not. In fact, it might have worked better if Sammich indeed thought that I still suspected him. It was a spur of the moment thing. If you go back and re-read my posts at the time, you can probably see what I mean.

[Near]

1. There is no evidence? So you still think Sammich actually rolled the dice? I summarized my reasons for doubting Sammich in post 328 and 330. If you disagree with me, please explain why.

2. Sammich has dodged people's questions even before he "disappeared". He refused to answer xreyox's question. He conveniently ignored my question on who he thinks are scums.

3. Yes this is possible.

Y, your strongest argument for lynching me is that I have been leading an investigation that lead no where. You posit that I am a scum trying to confuse town. You qualifyed my investigation from the start as useless, and still maintain that there is no evidence that Sammich lied.

I want you to respond to actual content of my investigation so far. That is, do you think it's possible that he remembered 11 names? Without writing down the names? All of which happened in 2 minutes? After 10 days later? Do you deny the similarities between his "list" and the order of people who posted here?

[Near]

I'm not sure that he rolled the dice, but I see nothing to

prove

otherwise. You can say it's not probable, you can say you don't think it's true, but you can't say you have proof. Proof means you have evidence that shows that the claim in question is a lie. You don't have that. You have reasons to not believe it's true, but you have proof.

I am not sure if I have ever referred to my argument against Sammich as "proofs". But if you are trying to force words into my mouth, what we mean by proof in this game is actually a "proof beyond reasonable doubt". See below.

You're presenting your subjective ideas as facts to make your case stronger. Your case isn't strong enough and by claiming it is, you're misleading the town.

Wrong. I took what Sammich said as facts. What ideas of mine were subjective? The problem is that when I took Sammich's account of this dice roll incident as facts, there were many holes that could not be explained unless we assumed beyond reasonable circumstances. You may argue that this last conclusion is subjective, and yes I agree. But do decide for yourself.

You do know you're contradicting yourself, right?
If I had to choose 11 names, I'd probably wouldn't remember the order, not after ten days, but after an hour so. What I would definitely remember, is the way I chose that order, meaning I would be able to recreate the list even a month later. The similarities between the list and the order is exactly that - A way to decide the order.

Your argument:
1. Sammich couldn't remember the list.
2. Sammich mysteriously claims a list very similar to the posters order.

My thought:
Sammich made the list based on the posters order, therefore he could remember it.

You misunderstand my point. The fact is, Sammich was the fifth player to post on this game. Since he didn't know the order of players who would post after him, his list should not be similar to the list of the players who posted in this game.

You're misrepresenting things to support your case. Cases should relay on facts, or at least good assumptions. Fact's shouldn't be fabricated to support theories.

Be specific which facts I am fabricating. Your argument jumps from what I said to conclusion to another conclusion without any concrete bridge.

Your feeble defense of Sammich without actually having a case makes you very suspicious.

[Near]

What? He based 1-5 of players who had posted (including himself). Ergo: the second die is people not on that list...people who had not posted, in other words.

Neither list exactly matches the order of the posters in this game. However, they are similar. If you are arguing that the similarities in both list were just a case of "luck", then how did he remember the 6 people on the second die?

This brings yet another point. The first dice does not match the exact order of the posters, but how did he remember the exact order after 10 days?

He was never asked if they were listed in 1-6 order (which would have been a good question, in hindsight).

One more thing to add: Sammich never specified, even when questioned if he actually remembered those 11 people's order, that he got the first list from the order of the posters. Instead he credited his

short memory

.

[Near]

I really want to see Sammich's replacement make a debut sometime soon...

[Near]

Near:

Post your thoughts on (all) other people please if you can. A detailed one. Thanks.

OK. Without referring to people's previous posts, I will make an attempt to explain my thoughts so far in the game. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I will start with Sammich: In the beginning he posted pretty frequently, but after we pointed out the dice incident, he almost disappeared. I know it's very unlikely, but the possibility of Sammich being a jester is still in the back of my mind. The fact is, he has never voted for anyone other than himself in this game. The ridiculous dice roll account kind of makes sense if he only has an ability to vote on himself. But maybe I am just completely wrong here. If he doesn't have a post restriction or he's not a scum, then he's my top candidate for lynch today.

jerubbal: Beside the meta thing that he said was "sarcastic" and I still can't find the sarcasm in either posts, I find him suspicious. During the dice investigation, he has said that Sammich's lying about the dice incident is pretty important, but yet did not strongly voice his opinion or tried to question Sammich. If I assume that Sammich is a scum, then this makes jerubbal scummy in my eyes. I think it's a good job of distancing himself without putting any more pressure on Sammich.

Plus when I came up with the Sammich is a jester theory, he readily voted against me. (Actually there were another person who voted me I think). I can't really understand why. Out of about 7-8 games I am playing right now, this is the first time I claimed the possibility of jester. I have never played with a jester and didn't know it was that uncommon in mini game.

Explain why would I possibly want to claim jester against Sammich if my alignment was a scum.


Y: I have written that he's my top scum suspect, but I do/did have some conflicting thoughts about him that I have not yet mentioned. To summarize why I find him suspicious, he is defending Sammich in a way that does not look reasonable to me. Almost every time I try to make a case against Y, he tries to shut me down. He called my facts fabricated, calls my investigation useless, blames me for lack of investigation on anyone else. So this makes me think maybe he and Sammich are partners.

It's interesting, though, that it's this very fact that makes me doubt if Y can be a scum. He is very insistent on calling the Sammich investigation useless. In my eyes, the evidence presented "prove" that Sammich has lied. I also expect other people who have carefully read my post to think the same. It's the fact that Y is so clear and loud about his stance against something that looks to be hard to argue against that makes me wonder if Y is a townie who just has an opposing view from me.

But then maybe I can use the same qualification that he used to describe me - it would make him too suspicious now to change his stance.

XReyoX: For some reason, I don't suspect you at ALL. I do know saying this would make me scummy and could look like an attempt to buddy up - but it's what I feel. I think it was Lowell who said " just get straight townie tells from. No other reason. He pushes the conversation, varies his attacks, and just looks town to me." I think it'd be easy to just agree with what Lowell said, but the truth is, I am not sure why. I just don't think you are a scum.

Ripley: He has been very very helpful in defending me. I think without him, I would have been lynched already. He makes good thoughtful posts, and often explains what I mean better than I can. He has been very useful to me so far, but I am still concerned about his being scum and is buddying up to me. I really doubt it though. I feel like he could have lynched me pretty easily if he wanted to. But the who knows, maybe he's trying to set up for late game.

Lowell: I was initially suspicious of him because of meta game of avinashiv dying. But his last post is a thoughtful one and maybe he's trying to scum hunt? Or maybe it's the fact that he agrees with me and Ripley now, and his plan to buddy up with me has worked. Anyway, I would say I don't have a good read on him.

Mizzy: I don't know yet. Her unvoting the vote placed by MP is expected strategy even if Mizzy was a scum. We will have to see how she plays from here on. But, I didn't think MP was a scum even before he replaced. I think the fact that he got the role name correctly outweighs the fact that he voted suspiciously and wanted to kill me - because he's just that kind of player.


I know there are couple of people I have missed: Incognito and Imat maybe more. So, to be continued after I do a re-read.

[Near]

Niv, could you do a quick vote and unvote on someone other than myself?

[Near]

UnVote Niv

Anything for you near

Sorry, I meant can you vote/unvote for someone other than yourself or me?

[Near]

What are you doing Niv =_=?

I told him to do that. I wanted to test the theory of whether or not Niv can vote on someone else. Maybe there's a total number of times Niv can vote on someone else. Or maybe i'm just paranoid.

XReyoX, your latest post summarizes Sammich well. But I don't agree with your point toward the end of your post. You said that I'm a "good lynch for today in terms of the info that he's going to give us". It also seems that you seem to think I am innocent. If I'm a townie and lynched, what kind of information is this going to you guys? Prob not much? I mean, is it going to make you think that Sammich is more likely to be a scum if I am revealed as town?

If I turn out to be a scum though it might give us some more information. It would probably make Sammich and Y less suspicious. It will make Ripley more suspicious probably, too. But anyway, this isn't going to happen. You will be disappointed.

Btw, I am curious as to what Soothsayer is?

[Near]

Vote Niv

Sorry Niv, you just got here. It's not your fault.

[Near]

No. Its not illogicall that people attacking one poerson won't vote for the other, obviously. However, if they are both town, I'd believe sammich's wagon would be as big, if not bigger than Near, this is my current view. This leads to the question of whether it's because sammich is scum, therefore he is low on the wagon count, or Near is scum and his buddies are kind of bussing him, or both, or neither, etc and etc... It is usually the case that the more someone post, the more potential scumtell he is going to make (everything, you do or not do, in most cases, can be manipulated as a scumtell). With all these, and that is the reasons, I feel there is a need to discuss. I think most people have been focusing on Near only, or mainly, all through the day and that is not a good thing. Even a townie, when concentrating on one person, with that person being scum in mind, would start cherrypicking, or at least I think I do.

One thing we should keep in mind though, is that, Sammich has never voted against me. Even when I was accusing him pretty hard with the dice investigation, and he probably thought he could lynch me by voting me, he didn't... I wonder why.

[Near]

It is very interesting that once some one noticed there's no pressure on Niv, his wagon started to grow. It seems like people don't want to look illogical.
What bugs me even more is that Sammich was obviously a bad player. The kind of player which gets himself killed due to bad play. Now that Niv's here, we should try and see what he has to say. Trying to shut up a player before he can get himself out of the hole his bad predecessor left him, is scummy.

I think that any one willing to lynch Niv before hearing his thoughts is anti-town.

FoS jerubbaal and Lowell

for that. The third player voting Niv is Near, which I see as the best lynch at the moment.

I agree with Y on one point. I don't think we should lynch Niv until he finishes his read and posts his thoughts. We should give him this chance. I however don't think a few votes on Niv is a bad thing. Just don't lynch him until he has had a plenty of time to respond.

In the meanwhile, Y's channel vision of wanting to lynch me hasn't changed. Y, who's the second person you want to lynch?

[Near]

Also, on near. Overall I find their posts to be either pointless or going in circle for the most part. the area ihated the most was the dice discussion, althoughallot of you are guiltyon that, i just found near really pushed the issue far too much. that really sent me on near. also, i really just think all lot of his post hae manywords but dont say much.

Doh. I tought I found interesting points about the dice incident. Can you be more specific on what you think about it? Is it completely useless? In your opinion, do you think Sammich rolled the dice in fact? Or do you think he lied?

Do you really find me most supscious? Or is it because you think I'd be the easiest substitute for your lynch?

What do you think about some of the other players in the game? Specifically Y and mafiaplyayer/mizzy?

[Near]

Responding to a prod.

I really don't like his vote of yours, ooba, and I don't like that you have given so little content before voting, just utilizing your predecessor's words as given without adding anything to them.

Replacing into a game that is on page 20 is not an easy task. Having said that, more content would be nicer.

I may not have done such a good job so far, but at least I haven't put anyone at -1L while using someone else's post as justification. Let me go through the points of that post and say why I don't like the case:

Putting someone at L-1 isn't always a bad thing. Sometimes it's a good thing.

Firstly, I hate all the talk about "lying about a dice roll." Who cares? Townies lie all the time, just as much as scum do. I think the question as to whether or not he did roll the dice is a mechanism for an opportunistic wagon.

Here is why I care:

Let's start from the beginning. If sammich has indeed rolled the dice in real life to do a random vote, fine. It would make him very slightly suspicious, but it would not be that big of a deal.

Now if Sammich did not roll the dice in real life, but lied about it, again, it would be suspicious but I don't think it's worth voting someone over it. But, if Sammich did not roll the dice, and he's being repeatedly questioned about it, he should tell the truth and admit that he lied. Sure, townies lie too. But scums are much more likely to fabricate a detailed story of what really happened to cover/defend their lies.

It turns out that Sammich was able to recall very detailed description of how he rolled the dice. He remembers which pip represented which person. That the coin came up heads, etc. What I am trying to say is that, if he didn't lie and actually went through with what he said he did, then fine. It's very weird and maybe he has unusually good memories, but it's not enough lynch him. But if he lied about it, then he was contemplating how to cover up his lie. To come up with a detailed step by step recollection of what happened 11 days ago. Via the longest post he had written in this game. This is what I find suspicious, and I feel it is a worthy of a vote.

Oh for heaven's sake, not THIS again. So what if he maybe (unprovably) lied about a friggin dice roll? The fact that this keeps coming up makes me want to chew nails. It's an EXCUSE to put suspicion on someone.

Use evidence that can be proven to make your cases,

folks, not some bullshit assumptions and anal nit-picking. My random votes in the random stage aren't purely random; of course not. But as for having all the tools around and ready for a random IRL roll? I have a bowl of dice on my desk and a stack of assorted coins. I also have several versions of the list of players at my handy one-click disposal in the form of vote counts, player listings, etc. So yes,

it is possible he could have done it randomly, but even if he didn't, who cares?

Emphasis: "Use evidence that can be proven to make your cases folks, not some bullshit assumptiosn and anal nit-picking."

What case do you have that can actually be proven. These things are hard to come by in this game of mafia, especially on Day 1. Actually, I think this dice-roll incident is as closest to being "proven" than any other case we have. I have explained this many times. We took for facts what Sammich has said, and it just didn't make sense.

It's not possible to have it done randomly, because he wouldn't have remembered the list. If he didn't, then looking at the disjointed list of Sammich, I find it hard to believe.

[Near]

Wont' be able to post for a couple days. Don't replace me~!

Even when you can you don't really post, so what's the difference?

I completely agree with Mizzy. I think she managed to say what I've been trying to in a much better way than me.

The fact that Y is trying hard to get on any bandwagon that would help Sammich's case reinforces our theory that Sammich is indeed a scum.

[Near]

That puts me at L-1. Since I'm pretty sure Mizzy isn't goign to vote for Sammich/Niv, I am going to claim my role. I am a

gunsmith

[Near]

I checked out XReyoX on night 0. Her gun was unloaded.

[Near]

I checked out XReyoX on night 0. Her gun was unloaded.

Urgh.

Unvote.

Any counterclaims? I thought a gunsmith only determines whether or not a person has a gun but above you seem to be mentioning that Reyo had a gun but it was unloaded? Also why didn't you bother to claim back when you were previously at L-1?

If my search goes unhindered, I will get the result "Loaded" or "Unloaded"

I was also thinking about claiming before, I think I was at L-1. At the time, it was during my investigation of Sammich's dice roll incident. Instead of claiming, I had asked people who had votes on me to unvote me at least until Sammich comes back answer my question.

SItuation is different now. We have a deadline, and the only person who does not have a vote casted is Mizzy. And looking at her past posts, I was pretty sure she wasn't going to vote for Sammich/Niv.

[Near]

I checked out XReyoX on night 0. Her gun was unloaded.

Any counterclaims?

I thought a gunsmith only determines whether or not a person has a gun but above you seem to be mentioning that Reyo had a gun but it was unloaded?

Also why didn't you bother to claim back when you were previously at L-1?

I actually asked the same question to destructor. She said that "Loaded" and "Unloaded" is for flavour and Loaded basically means the person I checked out has a gun, and "Unloaded" means no gun.

[Near]

I checked out XReyoX on night 0. Her gun was unloaded.

Any counterclaims?

I thought a gunsmith only determines whether or not a person has a gun but above you seem to be mentioning that Reyo had a gun but it was unloaded?

Also why didn't you bother to claim back when you were previously at L-1?

I actually asked the same question to destructor. She said that "Loaded" and "Unloaded" is for flavour and Loaded basically means the person I checked out has a gun, and "Unloaded" means no gun.

Okay. That's slightly different from what you just said here:

I checked out XReyoX on night 0.

Her gun was unloaded.

but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now until everyone checks in. The fact that we had a vigilante who died during N0 does seem to lend some support to your claim though.

I actually get results "unloaded" and "loaded". It's just that "unloaded" means no gun. Maybe I should have said that as a gunsmith, I get to check out if someone has a gun instead.

Also, if you look back at my posts, I expressed my pro-town sentiments toward XReyOX, and my reasons were almost "Just because." This was so that if I happen to die (NK or get lynched before I get to claim), you guys can find hints on who I checked out on Night 0.

[Near]

I actually get results "unloaded" and "loaded". It's just that "unloaded" means no gun. Maybe I should have said that as a gunsmith, I get to check out if someone has a gun instead.

This mistake (The one it refers to). Claiming to have a result, and when some one points out it should be different, Near suddenly changes his version. I believe he read it on the wiki or something and didn't really understood what it means.

How did I change my "version"? Answer me this.

The fact is, I pm her who I want to check out at night and she responds by "Loaded" or "Unloaded". Prior to this game, I didn't even know what "gunsmith" was. I just cheked my PM history. And I will now change one thing I said earlier.

I had said that I asked destructor whether loaded means whether or not the person I checked out has the gun. However, after reading my PM history, I did not ask her that.

What happened was, I pmed destructor saying "I want to check out if XReyoX's gun is loaded". Destructor responded me saying that I am not actually checking whether or not gun is loaded, but whether or the the person has the gun. She clarified it by saying that "Loaded" and "Unloaded" are just flavourful words.

[Near]

Near:

Is English your first language?

No.

[Near]

How did I change my "version"? Answer me this.

"The gun is unloaded, oh, wait, there is no gun, so I mean unloaded as 'has no gun'. That's what I meant in the first place". That change in version.

You are making things up. I asked for facts, not a story.

I had said that I get "Loaded" or "Unloaded" as a response from the mod. I still maintain that this is true.

What I forgot to explain in the very first post I claimed is that "Loaded" means the person I checked out has a gun. "Unloaded" means the person does not have a gun. I forgot to explain this because my pm just says "you will receive results 'Loaded' or 'Unloaded'".

Based on the fact that Y is unreasonably insistent on defending Sammich, I propose a Sammich lynch over Y's lynch.

[Near]

I am not sure what slips you guys are talking about (Mizzy and Incognito). Are you doubting me because you think "Loaded/Unloaded" doesn't exactly fit the role of a gunsmith? If so, it's not my fault.

Or are you doubting me because I forgot to explain it in my first post when I claimed? But, that's what my pm says. I will receive results "Loaded" or "Unloaded".

[Near]

I am not sure what slips you guys are talking about (Mizzy and Incognito). Are you doubting me because you think "Loaded/Unloaded" doesn't exactly fit the role of a gunsmith? If so, it's not my fault.

Or are you doubting me because I forgot to explain it in my first post when I claimed? But, that's what my pm says. I will receive results "Loaded" or "Unloaded".

No. The slip I'm referring to is here:

I checked out XReyoX on night 0. Her gun was unloaded.

In the post above, you mentioned that Reyo's gun was unloaded thereby implying that Reyo both had a gun AND it was unloaded. When I questioned you about it, you said the following:

I actually asked the same question to destructor. She said that "Loaded" and "Unloaded" is for flavour and Loaded basically means the person I checked out has a gun, and "Unloaded" means no gun.

Above you changed it around a bit to mean that Reyo did NOT have a gun and that's why he was unloaded. It's a very subtle difference but it could be a slip nevertheless.

In the absence of a counterclaim though, I see no reason to lynch you over it right now.

Wow. I didn't even realize. You are right, but that was a mistake. I must have been confused because I got "unloaded" as a result.

[Near]

I made a mistake. I must have been momentarily confused. But then, when your pm says you are checking "loaded" or "unloaded" and you start thinking about it in terms of "loaded" or "unloaded", isn't it possible that you might get confused too?

Anyway, I stick by 100% on what I said on post 551.

[Near]

Mizzy, Y has been dedicating most of his posts to defend Sammich/Niv this game. As you have seen, even when I claimed gunsmith, his support for Sammich/Niv was unwavering, almost to the point of unreasonableness. Y even said that he thought Sammich was a cop? Makes little sense.

So, I also suspect Y as very scummy. But because 1) Y was so hard to on defending Sammich 2) gorckat (another person who I find scummy at this point) easily jumped from my bandwagon to Y's => We should vote Sammich rather than Y.

I think Sammich may be some kind of power mafia role.

[Near]

Mizzy, Y has been dedicating most of his posts to defend Sammich/Niv this game. As you have seen, even when I claimed gunsmith, his support for Sammich/Niv was unwavering, almost to the point of unreasonableness. Y even said that he thought Sammich was a cop? Makes little sense.

I dedicated most of my posts attacking you, not defending Sammich. You were attacking him, but that's not the reason for me to think you're scum (It's the way you attacked, not the who).

You prove, again, that you will say things the way they suit your plans, no matter what the person you're referring to actually said. You can lynch Niv if you want, I think his lynch could be very valuable whether town or scum, but I think we should get you killed ASAP no matter what Niv's alignment is.

I really don't think I'll be able to post again before deadline, so

Mod:

If it is possible, I'd like to vote for Niv if the deadline strikes and no lynch has been accomplished.

I am a gunsmith. I'm untouchable.

Now die. With your scum partner Niv.

GG.

[Near]

Near, why are you addressing me, specifically?

Currently there are three people voting for Y.

Mizzy, Lowell, and Gorckat.

I think Gorckat was scummy.

I forgot about Lowell.

[Near]

I have to agree with Y on this one. Near, could you point to specific posts where Y has defended Sammich/Niv? I just filtered all of Y's posts, and I couldn't find any posts with out and out defenses of Sammich

or

Niv.

Post 251

What I'm saying is that Sammich said "Fine it was a joke vote" meaning "Fine, it was a random vote". I believe so because he referred to all the other random votes as joke votes too.

Y defending Sammich against my accusation toward Sammich

Since you believe it's so important, could you please tell me what advantage will he gain that merits such a procedure just to self vote? What gives him more advantage this way than if he would have just said that he votes himself, without the dice?

Again, speaking for Sammich for Sammich's defense.

Post 264

No, I wouldn't. It's something so irrelevant, and I believe that doing the actual roll would be much easier than inventing the whole story.

Accusing him for making that up is stupid if you ask me.

This is indirect. Defending Sammich by saying my argument sucks.

I've only searched through 3 pages. Anyway, overall, Y was very pro-Sammich in my recollection.

[Near]

I am a gunsmith. I'm untouchable.

Why would you say that? Maybe because you think your claim just got you off the hook? Guess what - The town may believe you for now, but you're scum, and you'll die eventually.

Now die. With your scum partner Niv.

You want me to die? Vote for me. I want you to die and that's what I'm doing.
Or is it easier to just say something than doing it?

You attacked Sammich for being the easiest target. Why don't you really attack me? You think you're not good enough to actually confront me directly?

OK Now I am perplexed....... I'm confused.
Do you really think I'm a scum??

Either you are a scum yourself and maintaining a very unreasonable case
OR you are a power role and there is a defect in your role. It almost sounds like you checked me out last night, and got "scum", in which case your role must have a defect.

[Near]

Wow. I am really, really surprised...

No, I did not check out Y this round. For more than an hour, I re-read the posts in this game and studied people's finished/ongoing games to decide who the best person to check out is. And I came up with two reasons why I should not check out Y.

1. He was so insistent on defending Sammich/Niv who in the end turned out to be a towns person. It's true that he could have done this in order to "prove" his innocence in case Niv was lynched, but if that were the case, he *should* have switched and voted Niv when I claimed gunsmith. It would both be the reasonable thing to do AND it would make him look pro-town because he was on Sammich's side most of the day. The fact that he didn't switch at the end, when doing so would have made him look definitely pro-town when Niv was lynched, made me think that he actually thought I was a scum

2. Scums would have expected me to check out Y. If Y is part of the scum team, then, most likely I would die this round anyway. If Y is not a scum, then I would probably live because scums would have expected me to check out Y, but my result would be "Unloaded", which won't be as useful.

So I decided to check someone else out.... And my reason for doing so was purely based on meta game analysis on all of his games. I would have never suspected that he would be a scum... but I found one. AT least his gun was "Loaded", and since we have lost a vigilante, I am pretty sure he's a scum. I won't say who it is just yet.

[Near]

OK, I lied. I actually checked Y out. I received "Unloaded". So unless he's a godfather, he's innocent.

I lied because I wanted to see Ripley reaction to my lie. On Day 1, Ripley was pretty much the only person who was on my side. I didn't like this fact that I barely suspected Ripley because he sided with me. So, I tried to make it look like I checked out Ripley by saying "I would have never suspected that he would be a scum". I thought that if Ripley was a scum, then he would suspect that I checked him out, and try to change his stance against me and make me look scummy. If Ripley was town, he would never suspect that I checked him out anyway.

Obviously, things didn't go as well as I planned because Ripley is MIA.

[Near]

Wow. I didn't expect this kind of reaction you guys.

Yes, I did think this plan might work. In the worst case scenario if it didn't work, I thought people would get mad at me for lying to them and wasting some time, but I thought it was worth a try.

If Ripley was a scum, would he not be concerned I checked him out when I said "i was very surprised" and "I would have never expected it"?

If Ripley thought I checked him out and got "loaded", wouldn't he try to change his stance (compared to D1) and try to setup the groundwork (i.e. Near can be a scum, etc) to accuse me as scum if I did say I checked Ripley out.

Imat, yes I could have waited until Ripley came back from his operation. But it would have taken a few days, and many people would not have been happy with it especially if it didn't work out as I planned. So I gave up.

[Near]

I still think Y can be a godfather.

[Near]

Near, what do you think of ooba? Why have you not suggested that ooba may have some scum role that is immune to your investigations? I thought ooba looked extremely scummy at the end of Day 1.

This hasn't occurred to me. I never thought XreyoX or ooba was scummy. But then, it may be because I started the day "knowing" XreyoX was a townie.

[Near]

I still think Y can be a godfather.

To this I say, read the front page:

Aleard (NPC) - Mafia Godfather (Died pre-game)

Interesting... So, Y is not a scum afterall...

[Near]

Incognito, you make a good point. If there really is a roleblocker, they didn't roleblock me for some reason. I would only get "loaded" or "unloaded" if my search goes unhindered. So, I am assuming if I got roleblocked, I would receive nothing.

There is a possibility of some kind of sanity issue here, as I still think Y being a scum is a possibility.

Lynching me would really be a stupid move for town. I find those who are pushing for my lynch most suspicious, e.g. gorckat. I will check you out next.

[Near]

Lynching me would really be a stupid move for town. I find those who are pushing for my lynch most suspicious, e.g. gorckat. I will check you out next.

How lynching you is stupid?
Why won't you investigate some one who's actually doing scummy things, like Lowell? You keep deciding who's scum and who isn't depending on who wants you lynched and who doesn't. That's being a bad player.

So you want me to check out Lowell next?
So you do actually believe I am a gunsmith? Then why do you want to lynch me? Lynching even a bad gunsmith is a horrible idea for town at this stage.

[Near]

Ok, Y. There are other games I have to post in, and I don't have that much time, so for now I will do what I can.

I will start with you.

Y

: I suspected you as a scum from Day 1. You stood by Sammich. I think it's safe to say that I wasn't the only person who found him suspicious. From my perspective, he did many egregiously suspicious things and even though he turned up town, your defending him (yes, I maintain you were defending him) does not help your case. You could have been a scum and made a play knowing that Sammich wasn't. But then, in the same token, you were accusing me, so maybe this is not much of a tell.

Also, scums decide not to try to NK me. Sure, if there was a doctor, they would have wasted a kill if they targeted me. But at least it would give them information that there is a doctor (but then, it would also pretty much make everyone believe that I am a gunsmith, so maybe they decided to go for a "sure" kill). But it's also possible that, as Ripley said, you could be a godfather and they knew I would check you out, "proving" your innocence. I think both scenarios are possible, although I am not sure which one is more likely. For now, I would say somewhat scummy, but not as much as I suspected on Day 1.

Ripley

: He is a voice of reason. He has defended me many times on Day 1, and I find myself thinking "can this guy really be mafia." And yes, I tried to test him and he says it wouldn't have worked. But in the back of my mind, I had a brief thought "maybe he wanted to avoid the situation by making an excuse of surgery". I doubt it though. I am sure doing something like that is withing rules of this game, but I just don't think Ripley is the type who would do something like that. So, I find him pretty protown.

Gokrat

I found him suspicious since his vote hopping toward the end of Day 1. I briefly considered checking him out instead of Y at night. The fact that he doesn't believe I am a gunsmith and his insistence on trying to lynch me today makes me suspect him. Scummy.

Lowell

I don't really find him scummy. I didn't have a very good read on him day 1, and I still don't. His last post where he says "If Near isn't the real investigator, he'll have trouble explaining himself when the real one dies. So I'm not sure why we shouldn't believe his claim at this point." is a reasonable one. Neutral.

Mizzy

I think she's pretty pro-town. Despite some idiotic posts mafiaplayer has made before Mizzy replaced him, I still found mafiaplayer to be protown because he was, afterall, able to claim townsperson correctly. And since replacing him, she has made pro-town posts, even though I think she did accuse me for awhile until I claimed. But then suspecting a town isn't necessarily a scummy thing. Pro-town.

ooba

"verified" townie. even if you guys don't believe me, he is in my eyes, unless i have sanity issues or less likely, he's a godfather.

Incongito

I don't have a good read on him.

[Near]

My latest thoughts about Near coming up.

There was something niggling me about his claim, and during the night phase I went back and found it. This comes from a post made by Near on March 26th (Post 428) where he gives his thoughts on all the players in response to a request from XReyoX. (This was the second time Near had been asked to do this by XReyoX, and on both occasions he obliged, so there are actually two such lists, Posts 164 and 428.)

In this post Near says, of me:

Ripley: He has been very very helpful in defending me. I think without him, I would have been lynched already. He makes good thoughtful posts, and often explains what I mean better than I can. He has been very useful to me so far, but I am still concerned about his being scum and is buddying up to me. I really doubt it though. I feel like he could have lynched me pretty easily if he wanted to. But the who knows, maybe he's trying to set up for late game.

My problem with this is: why would Near, a power-role, expect to be "pretty easily lynched"? This post was made 11 days before the gunsmith claim, and it did make me wonder if these were the words of a scum who hadn't yet thought of a convincing roleclaim. I'd like to get Near's comments on this.

Interesting point. I don't know how to explain it, but when everyone calls my genuine attempt at scum hunt scummy and keep saying I'm wasting town's time and my investigation is going no where and repeatedly being put at L-1, I think it's possible for even a power role to feel that he will be lynched.

Secondly, I have expressed my lack of suspicion toward XReyoX many times before above post. And in some cases, I have said something like: "I can't explain it but I don't find XReyoX scummy at all".

Ripley, your post like this makes me think you are actually investigating whether or not I am a scum. I find it difficult to believe a scum can pay attention to details like this. And for this, I find you even less scummy.

[Near]

Also, another question to Near: Do you have something against analyzing me? Every list you've made since I denounced your first one has not included me, its starting to make me feel ignored or something...

Sorry, not trying to ignore you, but I just don't have much read on you. I don't think we had much first-hand interaction Day 1, and seriously, I was busy the whole day trying to save myself and defending against Y and accusing Sammich/Niv (although I was wrong).

I will do a re-read and post my thoughts.

[Near]

Ripley, could I ask you to post your thoughts on gorckat, Lowell, and Incognito?

[Near]

Responding to a prod.
I still find gorckat scummy, but after reading Ripley's response to my question, I'd rather lynch one of the guys who've been lurking. Imat or Incognito. I dunno which one yet, I will do a re-read.

[Near]

wait no. i'm here.
responding to the prod

[Near]

sorry about not posting much content. i've been busy with work. i will make a real post within 24 hours.

[Near]

Wow. Withouth having read what happened after I was NK'ed, I want to apologize for not being able to log-in to send in the investigation. I didn't even know I was prodded. SORRY! Fortunately, it didn't matter.

Perhaps, my trick after Day 2 when I said I investigated and received guilty on someone I would have never suspected otherwise did work? or perhaps it was mere coincidence that Ripley was going through an operation. :p

anyway, in retrospect, I did cause much harm in my insistence on dice investigation, although i still believe he was lying (i don't even remember his name).