Mini 578 - Mistery at Montescuro - Game Over!

[Coron]

Hi guys, I read through the thread while waiting to replace in, I saw something, but let me go back and confirm details as I don't remember exactly.

[Coron]

Yup, JamesThePhox was mildly bandwagonned early, then there was an unexpected reaction by Joudus, Macavenger, pyrodwarf, and to a smaller degree singing librarian and Yos. For some reason a bunch of people jumped to his defense. Specifically Pyrodwarf and Joudus seemed to overreact. Also there seems to be minimal direct relations to each other with oblique defence of him for the most part and little direct dialog the rest of the way, as such this is my #1 suspicion of where scum might be hiding.

Vote: Pyrodwarf

as the most suspicious of the group.

[Coron]

with oblique defence

meaning you didn't take actions directly to defend him, but rather took actions that would defend him, without precisely "defending" him.

[Coron]

Basically you guys reacted in a defensive way(well, offensively defensive but still) to an attack that wasn't directed at you.
I don't see how a post like:

It requires 4 more votes to lynch Fox. Use your votes wisely Wink.

Surely you aren't suggesting it would be a good idea to lynch

anyone

on page 2?

Clearly points out some craplogic used by Guardian, he leaps to the idea of a lynch on page 2, which guardian didn't even talk about (strawmanning), and really it seems like a reaction that would come from the person being voted not a 3rd party person.

Honestly Macavenger, I didn't find your reaction nearly as scummy as I did the other 2, and I don't find your body of work as a whole very scummy, which is why I didn't call you out as scummy, merely noted that your reaction at that point was a bit weird.

PyroDwarf seems the scummiest basically on gut after reading over his body of work.

[Coron]

The purpose of this statement was to inquire as to whether Guardian was pushing for a lynch with his rather vague 'use your votes wisely' statement, or whether he was suggesting people should not lynch. It was also to clearly state my opinion that lynching anyone on page 2 is fool hearty, as it gives us very little to go on for subsequent days. I guess I can see how you could interpret this as defending Phox, but the fact of the matter is, it wouldn't matter who the votes were on, the response would have been exactly the same.

It's difficult to prove that, and I feel no real reason to believe it.

Looking at Coron's suggested possible scummers as a whole:
Snip

You list the people who had weird to just slightly off reactions to the early wagon as my possible scum? That was not really my attention, other than the three I said I found scummy that's not what I was saying.

and in that whole thing you don't even address one of the three I called as the potential scum group, JamesThePhox.

I wasn't trying to overreact to Phox's wagon,

I don't think anyone tries to overract.

I was suspicious of the way Sensfan reacted. Please explain oblique defense more. what actions are you talking about?

The two main posts I saw your oblique defense in are these 2:

uhmm, okay. Sensfan, what does this mean?

I voted you because you had 2 votes already.

Why did you move your vote so quickly? It doen't make sence to me. why not just leave it on macavenger? Guardian, why the mystery?

I think SensFan is more suspicious than VH. It wasn't his vote on macavenger, that could pass as normal random stage voting. But why change it to JtP right after guardian? Guardian vote's change seemed to be a response to Macavenger's "even vote count" comment, as did SensFan's vote on Macavenger. But moving it to the person that another player just voted for? Why not have 2 players with 2 votes? I think I'll keep my rand. vote and pot a FoS on SensFan.

It looks to me as though you are undermining the people attacking JamesThePhox, and to me, that seems like a suspicious activity.

[Coron]

Hi Coron - what did you think of the case I had against VH, such as it was?

when I was rereading the thread I didn't know who I was replacing yet, so I really didn't take special note of it. Honestly on my read through I found VH to be reasonably scummy, so it wouldn't be suprising if you had a reasonable case. I do not actually recall your case against VH, so if you could reiterate it it would be much apreciated.

Joudas - yeah, I have a low post-count atm. That's largely due to me picking my target to be someone who then flaked on us

Target?

[Coron]

Target to pressure, and potentially see lynched.

My case was that he was one of the last voters in a "random" voting stage that left us with 1 vote apiece. He was also then very quick to remove said vote once it became part of a larger bandwagon, showing a peculiar aversion to contributing towards a bandwagon.

Being one of the last voters that lead to 1 apiece, meh, not really a good arguement, but I also thought the way he removed his vote was kinda suspicous on my read-through.

[Coron]

and in that whole thing you don't even address one of the three I called as the potential scum group, JamesThePhox.

I didn't see Phox as scummy then, and I don't see him as too scummy now. Cue you coming back with "OMG SO YOU WERE DEFENDING HIM AND YOU'RE DOING IT AGAIN!" in the same word-twisting way you've taken most things I've said so far. Good job.

I think you are misunderstanding what I'm saying, when you talk about the group of people I find suspicious you completely ignore JamesThePhox, but include people I didn't even say a found scummy for some undecernable reason that I don't know.

Also, the accusations of twisting your words are completely unreasonable, I haven't twisted anyone's words. The only things I could really be accused of is misunderstanding your motives.

[Coron]

JamesThePhox was mildly bandwagonned early, then there was an unexpected reaction by Joudus, Macavenger, pyrodwarf, and to a smaller degree singing librarian and Yos

Um... when did I say these people were suspicious?

[Coron]

I ignored JamesThePhox because he wasn't part of that group of five you mentioned.

so, you include 3 people I don't ever call scum or scummy in a list of "Coron's suggested possible scummers as a whole", but ignore one of the three that I actually mentioned as possible/probable scum... Makes a lot of sense.

The only 3 people I even called suspicous or scum was JamesThePhox, PyroDwarf, and Joudas.

[Coron]

Um... when did I say these people were suspicious?

JamesThePhox was mildly bandwagonned early, then there was an unexpected reaction by Joudus, Macavenger, pyrodwarf, and to a smaller degree singing librarian and Yos

I don't think it's an unreasonable assumption that if you're making a claim that someone's reaction was "unexpected" and then go on to call 2 out specifically as scum based purely on that scenario, that you find the "unexpected" reaction to be a scumtell (since you're basing your argument against 2 people on it), and as such find the other 3 to be "scummy" to some degree as well. Clearly I'm not the only one that made this connection.

You know what assuming does right? Usually when I post, I mean what I say, or very strongly imply, but I did not in any way strongly imply that I found those 3 scummy, in fact in a later post I mentioned that I didn't find them very scummy(if I recall correctly). If I don't say that I think someone's scummy, yes, yes, it is unfair to assume I find them scummy.

Or are you saying that something that makes one person look scummy doesn't make another person look scummy?

Ok, if all of them had done exactly the same thing this game all of them would be equally scummy, but that's now how it happened, the specifics about their reactions are different, as especially outlined with the phrase "and to a lesser degree" that I used with a couple of them.

If you'd come right out and said "I find it likely that [these 3 people] are the scumtrio." in your initial post, it would have prevented a lot of problems now, wouldn't it? As it was, you made passing reference to 6 people, never stating in plain text your true suspicions - this kind of smells of leaving things vague until you can gauge reaction so you can adjust your argument if need be before committing. Noncommital arguments are indicative of scum.

answer

Specifically Pyrodwarf and Joudus seemed to overreact. Also there seems to be minimal direct relations to each other with oblique defence of him for the most part and little direct dialog the rest of the way, as such this is my #1 suspicion of where scum might be hiding.

[Coron]

okay coron, you are reading way too much into my questioning on Sensfan. Did you not find the way he moved his vote around suspicious? Not only do I find his vote moving suspicious, but after his absence, all he has to say is "I'm here" why bother posting that at all? I think I was not the only one wanting a little more than that from him. Also, it wouldn't have mattered why sensfan voted for, if guardian had voted for XXX, and sensfan did what he did, would you say that I was doing oblique defence for XXX? Any ways, it looks like were going to have to get another replacement, so bah

The vote hopping there wasn't even that bad, the problem was you overreacted to a little thing. The second part of that post, I honestly don't understand your hypothetical, if you could try to make it more clear I could answer it better.

[Coron]

So does everyone in this game post from school/work? Or are you guys in a different time zone or what? It's always busy during the day, then dies all night.

[Coron]

I'm still seeing where you're taking me. Where are we going, Coron?

You see it, why don't you tell me?

[Coron]

Well, I was asking cuz it doesn't seem like we're going much of anywhere. What's our itinerary ?

Currently, we are in the gather support/obtain more information stage, if we can gather enough support then we can move on to role claim/lynching, if we find good information we may have to reavaluate who scum is.

[Coron]

Pyro, I think it is less likely that you would have acted the way you did if JamesThePhox weren't your scum partner, which is why I am suspicous of both of you because of your actions.

Joudas, when will you get it through your thick head that JamesThePhox *is* one of the people I was accusing of being scum, and thus his vote is *not* a show of non-support for my theories about scum groups.

Near has been acting somewhat suspicous(possible sk?), but I'll stick with my vote for now, although I'd like to point out that 2 posts over 5 days isn't really THAT low, it's below what would be preferred, but a busy person can have that happen, that being said, I've seen him post in other games a lot while avoiding this one(even since I joined), which does make me think he's trying to stay out of the spotlight a bit.

[Coron]

EvilGorilaz needs to post.

[Coron]

Coron:What do you think about the vote count, and guardian's accusations towards JtP because of it?

um, it's fairly non-substatial but hinestly, was there anything better to go on at that point?

[Coron]

JamesthePho

n

x

wait, did someone replace in without you telling us?

- The number of times I have written Phonx instead of Phox when writing votecounts in this game is not funny (of course, it is mostly edited out). Just as I always write Armix instead of Armlx, and Shamba instead of Shanba. Grr. Now move on.

[Coron]

Coron, what info have you gathered?

I think Pyro is a good lynch, that's what I'm getting.

Info:
- Dasquian: Even less likely to be scum than before, probably town
- Evilgorrilaz: massive lurker, not contributing much
- Guardian: Sheep, I'm a tiny bit suspicous but not bad.
- JamesThePhox: Hasn't said a thing, still suspicous
- Joudas: Misunderstands my first post even after I explain it like twice, gets very defensive about my claims that he defended JamesThePhox, and denies that attacking someone attacking a person is defending that person. Currently voting on the competing bandwagon to JamesThePhox/PyroDwarf. Has moved considerably up my scumminess charts.
- Macavenger: Hugely overreacts to my statements, also misunderstanding me, but not as badly as Joudas, also claims he was just fighting against crap logic, sure, I understand why you would do that, but it seemed to be a little more than you really needed to do, thus why I see a connection, he has moved up to mildly suspicous.
- Near: has done some pretty odd things to make me feel suspicious, but looking back on it he seems like the "easy" lynch that is never right(like lynching Baby Jesus back in the day), it really just doesn't feel quite "right", it's hard to explain.
- PyroDwarf: It's recent posts have not really made me feel either way really, just kinda meh, I guess I've cooled a little to the idea of him being scum.
- SensFan: Silence...
- Singing Librarian: I'm not strongly suspicous.
- Coron: obviously town.
- Yosarian2: He's seemed a little quiet compared to what I remember, I always remember had had big long posts with lots of reasoning, not seeing it this game, dunno if he changed his style recently, if he's acting different because he's scum, or if he's just been busy recently, but I find this mildly suspicous, again nothing to strong.

With recent happenings I think I'm going to

UNVOTE VOTE: JAMESTHEPHOX

We need to presure some of the lurkers to post, plus he's suspicous, it's like a twofer.

[Coron]

I'm kind of torn on whether Near is a good candidate for a lynch right now or not. On one hand, he's noncommittal, he's non participatory, and in general, he's not helping town at all. On the other hand, though, after going back through and trying to find some semi-valid links between him and other people, I'm really not seeing anything that could be called anything but circumstantial. This is bad, in that if he's lynched today, no matter what he turns up, it doesn't really give us a lot to go on tomorrow. The lynch is town's main weapon if and only if it provides useful information.

Am I missing something? Going back and looking at Near's posts and others posts about Near, what links could we establish? What direction would you want to go day 2 if he turned up scum? If he turned up town?

Also keep in mind how easy people got me to L-2. In two different occasions because I wasn't participating enough in this game. While I do agree that it is fair to vote against me because I wasn't contributing enough, I still find it interesting how easy and without opposition I was put at L-2. From my perspective, I am inclined to think that most of the scums were/are on my bandwagon both times.

That's all fine and dandy, now who do you think the scums are?

[Coron]

So, um, you're FoSing me for being charismatic and for scum hunting. Good work.

[Coron]

Nah phox was a pretty crappy bandwagon to start the day off.

Dasquian I want lynched.

I swear to god you're ADD or something.

[Coron]

So, um, you're FoSing me for being charismatic and for scum hunting. Good work.

To clarify, the FoS on you is contingent upon Guardian being confirmed scum. My beef with you is dependent on him being found scummy to establish the link.

Then why bring these facts up?

[Coron]

Then why bring these facts up? Confused

Which facts?

The fact that I'm "charismatic and point a lot of fingers"

[Coron]

The fact that I'm "charismatic and point a lot of fingers"

That's what I thought you meant - and I already answered it. To point out the similarities between your style and Guardian's, coupled with the similar opinions and Guardian's "I'm with Coron!" bout there, if Guardian turns up scum at some point I intend to revisit this based on this evidence. Consider it a forewarning.

How does similarities is playstyle have anything to do with anything, also, if you think that Guardian and I have played even moderately similar styles during this game, you are most likely either mentally handicapped or on hallucinogens.

In addition, scum are more likely to jump in with a townie in such an obvious way than their scum partners(wifom of course but this is just my experience), both to gain their trust, and maybe incriminate them. This is why I pointed out that Guardians sheeping made me kind of suspicious.

[Coron]

Basically, scum try to avoid direct connections with one another, but often times scum "buddy up" with a townie to gain their trust and incriminate that townie should the scum die.

[Coron]

Just checking in from the prod. Will post in a couple days, this week's been hell.

It's been 4 days we're waiting.

Mod: Could you prod JamesThePhox

[Coron]

++ to suspicion of Joudas, as he shows absolutely no consistency in who he thinks is scum, other than avoid the other people I think are scum, in the past like 3 days he called me and Guardian scum and then completely flip flopped into agreeing with Guardian and all this time leaving his vote on Near, even after his last post where he said it was scum's plan go get Near lynched. I mean, this is nonsensical.

also,

Mod: could you prod SensFan

[Coron]

Mod: could you also prod Pyrodwarf

The participation by about half the people here is good, but the other half has disappeared.

[Coron]

in the past like 3 days he called me and Guardian scum

I'm still thinking Guardian might be scum. I'm thinking if he turns up scum, you might be, too, and will re-examine that if the time comes.

and then completely flip flopped into agreeing with Guardian

Er, what? Are you referring to my finding something Dasquian said to be suspicious? As Guardian stated, he read it entirely differently then I did - how is that me agreeing with him?

so you think Dasquian is scum completely separately from thinking that Guardian and I are scum? Or do you think that Guardian poined out his scumbuddy? Honestly if Dasquian is scum I do not see it as very likely that Guardian is also scum, unless of course one of them is an SK. The point is your two views of who is scummy doesn't really mesh up very well.

and all this time leaving his vote on Near, even after his last post where he said it was scum's plan go get Near lynched.

No, what I said was:

He sounds somewhat confident that once Near is lynched he won't come up scum, and there's only one way he could know that.

You missed the important part of your post anyway.

I don't like this. This almost has a hint of "Vote Near first, because then you'll see he's town and since you think I'm bussing him, you'll (incorrectly) assume you were wrong and

won't

jump to the conclusion that I'm town, too."

Er, the Won't in there I think is supposed to be a will, but you can correct me on that.
To me this is saying that Dasquian's plan is to get Near, who is town, lynched to help clear himself, and that Dasquian is scum... yet you're still voting Near. Somehow this does not sound at all protown...

[Coron]

If it is not (x and y)
and everything is proportional, then as the probability and Y increases the probability of X decreases and vice versa, making strong attacks in two different directions rather weak, it's like tying 2 horses together and having them run opposite directions, it might strech the rope some, but only so far and in the end you're getting nowhere.

Honestly, the multiple attacks in multiple different directions is something I've seen from scum A LOT. It gives them the ability to switch to a different bandwagon without suspicion should it appear and if they say either (this or that), then I suppose then thing people will forget about (This other thing). I know I'm probably not making much sense but please try to understand, I have experience, I've seen these things before.

In response to the Near "slip" it wasn't a real slip, you guys jump at the slightest stupidest things.

[Coron]

I'd rather lynch DBE, or Joudas.

[Coron]

Hmmn. unvote, vote DarlaBlueEyes

What are you seeing that's making you do this? I ask because we're a few days from deadline, you moved your vote onto someone who is definitely the minority, so there must be a reason, and if you see something we don't, we need to know so we can adjust our votes accordingly if it's sensible, and verbally berate you if it's not.

He moved his vote to someone with more votes than the person he was voting(not including his own vote). Also, deadline is no reason to vote someone you don't think is scum.

FOS to the Max: Joudas

I mean, if I weren't voting DBE I would definately be voting Joudas, and I would most certainly switch to him if the bandwagon were bigger than that for DBE.

[Coron]

This is ridiculous. 4 days from deadline and we have the votes split 4 ways, 3/3/3/2. We don't want to lynch blind. We don't want to miss a lynch. Ergo we need to jump on someone

fast

and get a claim. This game is turning into another Lost Boys as far as lynch-shyness goes.[/wuote] I don't want to miss a lynch, but I'd rather miss a lynch than lynch a townie(aka protown person not the specific role). I don't support the Near OR the Macavenger bandwagons, though Macavenger would be the prefered of the 2. I agree that Near should claim though, I'm with you on that, because it looks like we won't get anywhere today without it.

Obviously my first choice is Near. He's dragged this day out and really should've been forced to claim far earlier than now. My second choice is Guardian, though I think he's a bad lynch right now. My third choice is DBE, who I agree seems more newbie than scummy. My last choice is Macavenger, who has set off no scum alarms at all and has newbie, maybe-scum and scum on his bandwagon.

at this point a Guardian lynch is a little far-fetched, I doubt we'll have that big of a turn around in votes in the small time left.

FOS mbf

for putting us in this situation with not so much as a word of explanation. Everyone needs to chip in now as to who they're prepared to bandwagon, and whoever that person is needs to get a super-fast turnaround on a claim so we can react.

I don't really see why MBF's vote is suspicious at all, but whatever. I agree that people NEED to show up and say who they're willing to vote.

May I once again posit that Near is the only truly sensible bandwagon right now and that if two people join his bandwagon we can just about avoid a rushlynch.

You say this without any real backing... I don't really understand this.

[Coron]

I agree there needs to be a bandwagon, and I must say Mike, your vote for me seems less than justified, but at the current time I have to ignore that and for the good of the town say,

unvote; vote: Near

So the justification for *your* vote is that there needs to be a bandwagon, solid if I do say so myself, and the emphasis on "for the good of the town" makes me think your a little overdoing your acting job here.

[Coron]

Alright, well obviously to protect myself, I am going to

vote:Near

Self preservation first!

Is just so blatant...

Upon re-read, I'm really not sold on lynching Near.

I'd prefer Macavenger or Dasquian.

DBE is a close but significantly behind third preference.

unvote vote: Macavenger

DBE, you will probably get my vote at the end of the day if it is between you and Near.

So don't think I'm letting off .

I am not sold on the Macavenger vote. Explanation?

[Coron]

and DBE's play reads newbie far more than scum.

it's looked newbie, but scum newbie more likely, and you also appear to ignore anything done my DBE's replacee, which I think is a foolish move, as much as it sucks to get attack because your replacee was scummy, it's how the game works.

I'd rather vote for Coron, MBF, EG, or Guardian than DBE currently, in roughly that order. None of them have wagons currently though, so they're more suspects for tomorrow for me at this point.

Why not throw Yos and pyrodwarf in there too! Then you could have all 7 people not voting for near as your top 7 suspects! My personal scum reads go something like this:
DBE=joudas= top suspects
macavenger(more of recently), and guardian are kind of the second tier, guardian seeming like a potential SK.
PD, Eg, would be next PD more likely to be mafia and EG more likely to be sk, but both are possible for each.
then probably Yos and Near Yos has just felt a slight bit off, and Near has been slightly scummy, but it seems the reactions to that have been too much like scum jumping on it, which could mean he's town or the SK, he'd be my third choice if we had an SK, but I doubt he's mafia, so...
SL, das, MBF, and Coron(obv) haven't really seemed like scum to me so far.

[Coron]

What exactly is it that I have done thats been Scummy?

I agree there needs to be a bandwagon, and I must say Mike, your vote for me seems less than justified, but at the current time I have to ignore that and for the good of the town say,

unvote; vote: Near

So the justification for *your* vote is that there needs to be a bandwagon, solid if I do say so myself, and the emphasis on "for the good of the town" makes me think your a little overdoing your acting job here.

Here is an example for you not 20 posts ago, look back at reasons I found you and your replacee scummy, it's not as though I've said nothing about it.

Also your "self defense" as a reason for a vote was rather scummy too.

If you want me to reiterate I could but I feel no need to go to as much effort when, if you were curious you could look yourself.

[Coron]

Too many people want to lynch Near, IMO. Perhaps there's a good reason for it that I didn't pick up, being the replacement and all, but I think it's too strongly pushed, and a lot of people are just saying "Near is scum and I won't pursue anyone else until he's lynched".

He's stealing my reasoning!

[Coron]

Coron, in 426, you didn't mention me or Macavenger, while ranking all the other players. Why?

Because you're bad at reading.

[Coron]

Yah I missed that line.

Guardian as a potential SK?

wtf?.. explain? SK tells???

I know, I know, you want to know where you slipped up, but if I gave away too many of my secrets I wouldn't be any good at catching and correctly identifying scum.

[Coron]

no. I've never understood comments like "X could be an SK" and I want to hear why now, since half the time they seem like bullshit offhand things said by scum.

I've personally never ecountered a reliable "SK tell" as opposed to "scum tell" so I'd love to hear your justification for thinking I might be an SK, otherwise I'm going to assume that you fall into the half that's a BS offhand scum comment.

Jeep seems to think there are tells for things other than just scum/not scum:
http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... mmon_Tells
he even has a section for finding the SK, however it is unfinished.

[Coron]

I don't use ANY set group of "tells" a lot of my accusisations are based on tendencies, and not one specific thing I see.

I'm having a hard time figuring it out, do you believe that sks actually act exactly the same as mafia, or are you just doubting my ability to figure out how they would act differently?

Saying that an SK and a mafia member act exactly the same is ridiculous, the mafia member has to think about his partners, where an sk does not, the sk then has a lot more freedom to move his vote around, where a mafia member might feel a bit restricted. Just as one of the things I look at.

In order to find role X I think about how I would want to act if I were role X, I also think about how I've seen the role act in the past(not specifically and games, just an abstraction).

[Coron]

And Coron posts while I'm typing. Meh on that reaction. Even if you don't have specific tells Coron, you've obviously seen some general tendencies or something - point a couple things out.

I *did* point something out.

Also, it helps that he doesn't look like he'd be scum with the people I think are the mafias.

[Coron]

SKs have amazingly a lot in common with mafia: Survival is critical, less care for who is lynched, want to make friends, etc.. Until someone shows up mafia, and we can solidly speculate on connections (and then we see someone scummy but with no connections -- SK), I'm perplexed as to how you can "tell the difference" between SK and scum. Day 1, with no partner connections, saying you can see 3 good SK candidates boggles my mind.

I almost always look at connections and how people act towards one another(and if they act differently towards some people as opposed to others), when I'm looking for scum in ANY day, it could be day -67 and I wouldn't care, it still works.

Secondly, mafia care A LOT about who is lynched, even beyond just "not me", since their partners getting lynch is JUST AS BAD as them getting lynched.

I see no reason it would be detrimental to the town to explain reasoning that me and the 2 others 'could be SKs', and you continue to evade doing so.

I have not been.

I could go through I list of everything I notice that SKs are more likely do than mafia, but really, 1) I don't want to 2) it means people will stop doing them so I would stop catching people 3) It would probably be fairly boring.

Most of it comes down to the fact that I'm getting bad vibes from Guardian without really anyone I could think of who would be scum with him.

For all we know we don't even have a SK, which is why Guardian is certainly not the lynch for today.

Since I feel slightly presured(1 vote and one promised vote, but this close to deadline we need to get things moving), I'll claim.

I'm a tracker.

[Coron]

No, you know what?

unvote, vote Near

Coron's roleclaiming was pointless and the only reason I can understand him doing it so close to deadline is because he wants to cause chaos and disrupt the impending Near lynch. I predict them being scum together.

Honestly, information roles claiming early does not hurt town very much, if I were say, a townie, or a doctor, I would not have claimed.

[Coron]

Coron's roleclaiming was pointless and the only reason I can understand him doing it so close to deadline is because he wants to cause chaos and disrupt the impending Near lynch. I predict them being scum together.

Your logic is... completely ununderstandable.

How would me claiming affect in any way Near getting lynched/not getting lynched.

Please explain, thanks.

-Coron

[Coron]

To disrupt the speed of the game to discuss how plausible your sudden claim is.

Please explain how your claiming benefits us in any way.

1) Ideally it means people stop voting me for now and do something more productive
2) it means that any doctor we might have will know that I'm an investigation role and worth protecting
3) it's harder for scum to claim investigation roles early(especially trackers), if they don't actually have the ability because it gives a lot more verifiability
With of course the negatives being:
1) the scum know I'm an investigation role, so if they kill the doctor(or we don't have one) they can go after me and shut me up.
2) Early claims make the game slightly less fun.
3) I dunno, add your own stuff here.

Near is currently at lynch, if things go on without any change as disrupting the flow in that way would make it tend towards, he would be lynched, thus, what your saying seems a little silly to me.

[Coron]

There are other ways to stop people from voting you that involve

keeping useful abilities to yourself

Points two and three are refuted by the fact that we don't know you're not lying scum.

What does claiming NOW benefit the town? You have no information for us. You are forcing the doctor, should we have one, to make a difficult choice between believing you and deciding if you are worth the protection. You have made us stop discussing who we were going to lynch between Near and DBE, allegedly just so the one person who had their vote on you would stop voting you, in which case you are more focused on your own survival than the good of the town, making you scum.

Blah blah blah. Most of this is based off of "oh well you could still be lying scum. Well, I guess it's possible that I'd be a mafia tracker, but it's very hard for a person without actual tracking ability to pull off a tracker claim successfully. I think it could help the town because I felt like there was at least a reasonable chance I'd die tonight, and between that and having people distracting away from what we should be doing and attacking me, I felt it was in the town's best intrest for me to claim. Honestly I was contemplating claiming before anyone even voted me, for the reason that then the doctor would know I was worth saving and not leave me to the scum.

The problem wasn't really the one vote, it was the idea that all the conversation going on was about me, and not about people I suspected were scum and that we should lynch today.

My point is you weren't discussing who to lynch between DBE and Near, you were discussing whether I could really read SKs day one, I was hoping if I claimed we could get back on track, but it seems that you're sending us even further off track, which means I guess my claim backfired.

And, yes, I am worried about my own survival, but only for the good of the town, not above the good of the town.

[Coron]

Why do I want to vote Near so much?

I think I am going to hammer Near.

Senor Serial Killer strikes again

[Coron]

Coron, you are lying scum. You are either a mafia tracker, or you are a vanilla mafia pretending. I can just see what's going to happen tomorrow.

"I targeted the person who died during the night."

"I targeted this person (scummate). He did nothing/targeted person not dead."

"I targeted this person (obvious townie). He did nothing."

"I targeted this person. I was roleblocked."

"I targeted somebody, but I don't want to reveal my results because the person I tracked targeted somebody who is not dead, leading me to believe that they are a powerrole who should remain secret."

So people are willing to give me the benefit of thinking I can read who is a townie and not a power role, but avoid giving the benefit of thinking I can read who sk is as opposed to mafia, sure, I can do both reasonably well, but i still think it's rather silly.

Also, if such a thing happens for a couple nights you can re-examine this. Although I don't think you're "Obvious townie" thing really works out.

I still don't understand why you think I'm obviously lying scum. Sure, I wasn't under much pressure, I agree, but the point is that the discussion was turning in a non-productive direction like 4 days before deadline, and claiming by investigative roles on early days is not really all that bad for town (can I really read wether people are SKs or not? Btw, answer is Yes).

I dunno, generally what I remembered of MBF is he was a good mafia player, but his actions here have not been indicative of that, which I guess brings him up ever so slightly on the scummometer, but still not particularly high. I certainly hope you have a reason for this at the end of the game MBF, or I might have to pull your "this player is a good mafia player" card.

I still think Near should claim... come to think of it he hasn't posted in a while.

[Coron]

First of all, I'm not "people". I never said you cannot read between sk and mafia. The possibility of a SK is not even being considered by me, and I find your suspecting people of being SKs to be foolish given that there is no evidence they exist.

Near was two votes from a lynch. Do you REALLY think we couldn't have gotten those two votes in four days time without your claim? Rubbish.

I certainly hope you have a reason for this at the end of the game MBF, or I might have to pull your "this player is a good mafia player" card.

If you truly are town, then go ahead and pull my "good player" card. It's be like a blind paraplegic revoking my driver's license.

At least back when I used to play, most minis were 3 mafia 1 sk 8 town. Please tell me if the metagame has changed since then.

MBF, about that, at deadline if he had 4+ votes he would have been lynched anyway, we were not in danger of no lynching really, if I were scum with Near it would've been counterproductive for me to distract the town from the main bandwagons.

About the blind paraplegic comment... I guess I've really never been that great at mafia, I admit, I don't win that much, since I am often bad at convincing people, but I at least like to think that I can read people fairly well.

[Coron]

I'm gonna go split wood for a while, so responding to your ridiculous allegations will not be in nearly as real time as it has been.

[Coron]

What? We lynch the claim tracker (as ridiculous as the timing of his claim is, AND IT IS) instead of Mr Scummy Near who has lurked all day and is not posting through L-2 and L-1 now? I say "not posting" rather than lurking now since it's the weekend and anyone gets a break for that in my book.

As much as I dislike Coron's play here, jumping on him for it and attempting to get him lynched when he's actually claimed an information role is not a sound idea and is exactly the kind of rush-lynch that sucks for the town.

You seem to have about a half ounce of sense(which is about 3/4s of an ounce more than MBF and Guardian seem to be having today, perhaps they were a little too enthusiasticly involved in 4/20), at least you recognize that lynching the claimed tracker isn't right, though you still question my tactics and want to lynch the wrong person, but it's a start.

[Coron]

Coron, you think we should lynch Joudas or DBE.

I am not that off from you on DBE.

I think lynching Mac would be even better.

But a few pages ago I was so sold on Near. I then re-read, and wasn't. But now, Near seems like a very appealing lynch again. Hmpuh.

All of this, but you're voting me, which is rather silly given the circumstances.

[Coron]

*hits head against brick wall* I was contemplating claiming now as my strategy before I was even mildly pressured, it just happened that I was pressured(admittedly light) after thinking that, that was just the factor that tipped the scales, the straw that broke the camel's back, whatever.

Honestly I thought that the scum would probably kill me in the night, and that losing the tracker is not really good.

As much as I enjoy watching you resort to personal attacks when you run out of serial killer conjecture and excuses for your poor play, it's time to end this day. Your may have a few people fooled, and your claim may keep you alive for awhile, but I don't buy it one bit. If we're both alive tomorrow, expect me to strongly advocate your death.

I resort to personal attacks because you don't even use any logic in your attacks on me, so there is nothing really to argue against, so if you just say OMG SCUM, I'll just say OMG MORON.

So, MBF, you honestly don't care what my result is, in any way shape or form? I find this very disturbing.

[Coron]

EBWOP

I am certain now that Coron is scum.

I still am faced with the decision of Do I assume Near is his Scumbuddy, or Do I try to get him lynched with a deadline looming?

Mafia is not a game of certainty, so please say something along the lines of "I'm convinced that Coron is scum", although that doesn't make you look too good imho either.

And I'm still pretty darn sure DBE is scum, these two recent posts do not help any.

[Coron]

forgive me... I'm

convinced[/] Coron is scum.

Either way your actions are incredibly fishy, that you choose NOW to become active, when we face a dead line, and had a viable candidate, You claim a role one that would, in your hopes, stop you from being lynched, under the guise that you were on the towns side versus that of the mafia.

and that Near suddenly becomes unactive seems to be a scumbuddy tell.

FoS: Coron

Er... I've been incridible active since I replaced in, and even if not it's good for the town to have people active near deadline.

I claimed a role that if I didn't have would be hard to maintain, so um, usually those are bad things for scum to claim...

Near has been inactive for quite some time.

Things you act like are "suddenly happening" have pretty much been happening all along, maybe you didn't notice because you just replaced in recently... but whatever.

[Coron]

Holy shit, go out for the day and come back to near 3 pages of fighting. Awesome.

I claimed a role that if I didn't have would be hard to maintain, so um, usually those are bad things for scum to claim...

I call BS on this. It's not hard to claim any investigative role - "Hurr I got RB'd guys sorry nothing useful tee hee!" is easy enough to type. So is "Found nothing useful, maybe tomorrow rite guys?". I really don't like your logic of "You'll see by my results that I'm a tracker", as it's flawed. What if you are the tracker, and do get RB'd, or don't get any useful results? We'll be at the same impasse we're at today, as we'll have to decide if your claim is truthful or if you're bluffing. It doesn't make things any easier on anyone.

That's true, and if that happens we can re-examine.

[Coron]

I resort to personal attacks because you don't even use any logic in your attacks on me

Yes I do. I can't see you as town because your claiming was illogical and the only reason you have for doing so, excluding self-preservation, seems to be that you think that you, as a tracker, are the most important pro-town role in the game. But you aren't. You can get innocent results on a mafia and you can get guilty results on a cop, doc, or roleblocker.

Loosing a tracker is no more important to me than losing a townie.

I don't care about your faked results.


Guardian, just.... stop. Everytime you post you look scummy. I don't see what "SK tells" Coron sees from you, but it could be the fact that you don't seems to care who dies.

? How exactly do I get a guilty result on a doctor?
Also, bolded part makes me laugh.

[Coron]

Doc could be roleblocked. Multiple killers could target the doc's target. Doc could be naive.

You can laugh if you want to, but I'll take a townie who plays well over a tracker who doesn't anyday.

Yes, if the townies play well enough all information roles are obsolete...

Doc could be roleblocked... um, in this case I would give no result to a tracker(but I can ask for clarification on this point). Multiple killers... all depends on how the mod runs his doctor. Naive doctors are almost unheard of(at least in games I've been in, I think I've only ever been in one game with one).

So everything you mention here are corner cases, sure it's a possibilty, so I guess technically you are correct, but in my eyes that doesn't help your point much.

[Coron]

Don't have much to add right now.

Near needs to post.

I agree that Near needs to post AND CLAIM.

[Coron]

Willing to hammer Near if he doesn't post in like 24 hours.

there is no reason to hammer Near, if he doesn't show up by deadline he'll die anyway.

[Coron]

Very surprised by the massive explosion of talking yesterday. Even more surprised by how little I have to add to it at this point.

I can't conceive of any reason for Coron to claim at that point, and as such am very suspicious of the claim. MBF's explanation makes the most sense of any that I've come up with (not that it makes much sense, very little about that claim does), so I'm sticking with my vote for now. If Coron does accumulate a large enough wagon to potentially deadline lynch, I'd be more likely to switch to it than before, I think.

The whole thought of claiming in this situation sprouted from listening to Pie too much.

[Coron]

obviously I could claim now, but as it seems some people are set on my scummyness I have doubts I would be believed. Although I may not be attacking this game with the standard MS strategy I am using my own logic (allbeit is an odd logic) and maybe thats what seems so scummy to you all.

But I am not Mafia, I am a Power-wielding Townie.

and I really don't see the logic in not wanting to be lynched = SCUM!!

I don't think anyone wants to be lynched Scum or town, so my desire to protect myself may be read as scummy, but its merely a will to survive and lead the town to victory.

Please actually claim, otherwise it just increases my suspicions, half claims are not good.

[Coron]

Random speculation to think about: Yos2-Coron (From Yos's super quick unvote)?

Nope.

[Coron]

Yup, JamesThePhox was mildly bandwagonned early, then there was an unexpected reaction by

Joudus

, Macavenger,

pyrodwarf

, and to a smaller degree singing librarian and

Yos

. For some reason a bunch of people jumped to his defense.

Specifically Pyrodwarf and Joudus seemed to overreact.

Vote: Pyrodwarf

PyroDwarf seems the scummiest basically on gut

after reading over his body of work.

The only 3 people I even called suspicous or scum was JamesThePhox,

PyroDwarf, and Joudas.

- Joudas: Misunderstands my first post even after I explain it like twice, gets very defensive about my claims that he defended JamesThePhox, and denies that attacking someone attacking a person is defending that person. Currently voting on the competing bandwagon to JamesThePhox/PyroDwarf. Has moved considerably up my scumminess charts.

- Yosarian2: He's seemed a little quiet compared to what I remember, I always remember had had big long posts with lots of reasoning, not seeing it this game, dunno if he changed his style recently, if he's acting different because he's scum, or if he's just been busy recently, but I find this mildly suspicous, again nothing to strong.

++ to suspicion of Joudas, as he shows absolutely no consistency in who he thinks is scum, other than avoid the other people I think are scum, in the past like 3 days he called me and Guardian scum and then completely flip flopped into agreeing with Guardian and all this time leaving his vote on Near, even after his last post where he said it was scum's plan go get Near lynched. I mean, this is nonsensical.

If it is not (x and y)
and everything is proportional, then as the probability and Y increases the probability of X decreases and vice versa, making strong attacks in two different directions rather weak, it's like tying 2 horses together and having them run opposite directions, it might strech the rope some, but only so far and in the end you're getting nowhere.

Honestly, the multiple attacks in multiple different directions is something I've seen from scum A LOT. It gives them the ability to switch to a different bandwagon without suspicion should it appear and if they say either (this or that), then I suppose then thing people will forget about (This other thing). I know I'm probably not making much sense but please try to understand, I have experience, I've seen these things before.

He moved his vote to someone with more votes than the person he was voting(not including his own vote). Also, deadline is no reason to vote someone you don't think is scum.

FOS to the Max: Joudas

I mean, if I weren't voting DBE I would definately be voting Joudas, and I would most certainly switch to him if the bandwagon were bigger than that for DBE.

Not to say I told you so... but...

[Coron]

Oh, and now that the game's over, newbie card - I think Joudas buddied with me pretty effectively Day 1, and I was still inexperienced enough to fall for it, and combined with his stance mirroring me on Guardian's theory stuff I didn't really read him as carefully as I should have. I feel like with my current experience 2+ months later, I probably would have tagged him D1, or at least been pretty suspicious along the lines of what Coron was seeing.

I definitely learned from the Coron fiasco - that's not something I'm likely to participate in again.

As long as your realize your mistake and learned something from it I will forgive you.

[Coron]

Oh, and sorry to coron about getting him lynched. I still say his claim was scummy, but in retrospect he clearly should not have been lynched for it.

Good job getting Joudas lynched ABR. If you had been right about anything else, we would have won.

Bah. We made lots of bad decisions this game (killing Coron, killing Dasquian, not killing Yosarian early). We didn't really deserve to win. Though it would have been nice.

Right on all counts here, though I still don't think the claim was that bad, though it might have been a bit odd. Having a single investigation role claim on day one does not hurt town much in most games. Would have worked out better if we didn't have 2 other people who thought they were the investigation role for the town, though the watcher might have figured it out that HEY maybe there would be a tracker too!

Honestly, when you started voting me MBF, I really thought that you might be a investigation role. Turns out not.

[Coron]

Oh, well.... since Joudas was scum afterall.... I'm guessing Guardian was naive. Which is why the scum kept him alive.

From what the mod told me of the setup, yes, he was naive.

[Coron]

- I'm impressed with Joudas. No one was really certain that he was scum until the last day, and he managed to make people tie him to macavenger for a win. Was the "100% mac is scum or 100% mac is scum" slip intentional?

Uh....

- Yos was also good scum, and stayed under the radar while the town was happily lynching townies. This seems to be on par with his good scum performance.

I was actually a bit disappointed in Yos. Perhaps it's because we've been scum together couple of times, but he was pretty obviously scum to me. The lack of forceful scumhunting, his forceful critiquing of me, and his desire to avoid looking scummy by not switching votes were all pretty big tells. I was damn near certain he and Pyro were scum until Day 5, when ABR convinced me otherwise.

It wasn't clear he was scum to me... I haven't been in many games where he was scum, but he sure was acting differently than normal, I certainly pegged that.